Culture & Christianity: The Allen Jackson Podcast

Jordan Rubin: If God calls us according to 1 Corinthians 3:16 the temple of the Holy Spirit, why would we put junk in this temple? When it comes to health, I don't think we are understanding that the Bible is the owner's manual for our body.

Allen Jackson: Godliness in general is a health proposal. Not letting the sun go down on your anger, practicing forgiveness, maintaining peace, all of those have an enormous impact on our health.

Jordan Rubin: I think that we need to do our best within our abilities to care for our body in a way that aligns with God's creation. A lot of what we need to do to get well is what could have prevented an illness in the first place.

Allen Jackson: Well, welcome back to Culture and Christianity. I'm excited today. I have a friend, mentor, and co-laborer in the harvest fields, Jordan Rubin. Welcome back.

Jordan Rubin: It's great to be here.

Allen Jackson: I laughed upstairs. I said I was going to come down with a bowl of M&Ms, but I decided not to poke the bear. Full disclosure, I'm a year and a half into it now. I sat down with Jordan and told him I needed some help. He was gracious enough to give me some input, and I've cleaned up a lot of my diet. Not all of it, but I've cleaned up a big chunk of it. So thank you.

You are always into the most interesting things. Last time you were here, you had a new book, "Biblio Diet." That has done amazingly well. For those of you who don't know Jordan Rubin, he is celebrated as a biblical health coach for more than 20 years now. From my generation, we've been looking to you for information for a long time. It is remarkable you overcame Crohn's disease through diet and God's help when the doctors really were at the end of their rope. You know God in a miraculous way and have given your life really to understanding the tools that God's given us to be healthy. So, welcome back. How is your "Biblio Diet" doing? Are you pleased?

Jordan Rubin: It has been great. It is really interesting to see something drop in as one of four million books. I wasn't sure how many books are on Amazon. I was told some ridiculous stat that 800,000 books are now being written every month, and probably 30% of them are written by artificial intelligence. But the remainder are being written by people, and it's a great platform where anyone can have a book. To be able to reach the intended audience is a huge blessing. To see people recommend the book to others, use it, and get benefits is extremely gratifying.

Most people, if they have my contact information, would rather me tell them everything to do other than read the book. But for those who have read the book, I'm grateful. It's been used in churches and small groups, and I'm really excited. Pastor, this is pretty interesting. I got calls a few weeks ago from France and the UK from people who wanted to interview me based on the fad of biblical health eating in America. If anything's going to be a fad, let it be one that's thousands of years old. I was excited about that.

People were talking about it. Fox News printed an article. Here is a miracle: I did an interview for the New York Times. I did it now that I'm more mature. Back in the old days when I did these interviews, they would interview me and I would share a certain point, then they would get the expert to debunk it. When you're young and in your 20s, you have thin skin, so that kind of hurt a little bit.

I figured the truth is the truth, let's share it. And the New York Times published a very positive article on biblical health, and that's amazing. For anything with the word Bible in it to be in the New York Times, that's a huge blessing. And then Fox News did it too. It is really neat to see not only America become health-conscious, but I want it to be credited to the one who created us and created our food and how we should live.

When we talk about that term biohacking, God doesn't need anybody to hack our biology. But it would be nice if we created an environment where we used our bodies with the owner's manual. I was actually communicating on WhatsApp with someone overseas who developed a device that he sent me to use. I'm asking him all these questions about how to use it, and I'm not really getting clear answers. Once I get them, I'm going to use it. I said I want to use this the best way you recommend for two solid weeks to see if it works.

When it comes to health, I don't think we are understanding that the Bible is the owner's manual for our body even though some of these health topics and principles are hidden in plain sight. Most people don't think the Bible is a health book, but the more I read it, it sure talks a lot about our wellbeing.

Allen Jackson: I think godliness in general is a health proposal. Not letting the sun go down on your anger, practicing forgiveness, and maintaining peace have an enormous impact on our health.

Jordan Rubin: Yes, absolutely. You brought up something that makes me chuckle. I was with some mutual friends of ours at TBN and I was talking about the different health guests they've had over the years. I was blessed to be on a praise episode with the great Jack LaLanne, who all of us remember. I remember telling Matt Crouch that I'm not sure who does all of the checking on the testimonial side of your guests, but Jack LaLanne quoted two Bible verses. One of those was "God helps those that help themselves" and "cleanliness is next to godliness." I said that principally, you could find something in James that may approximate the first one.

It is pretty interesting. It's amazing what God's doing today in the lives of people. There's a desperation and a hunger for what's real and what's true. For the first time in my almost 31 years in the natural health industry, I'm not considered a weirdo anymore. And that takes a lot.

Allen Jackson: It takes God to do that. When God becomes so mainstream that godly people aren't weird, that's a revival, a renewal, or a moving of the spirit of God, whatever we want to call it. I'm an advocate for the "Biblio Diet." Kathy and I both read it at different times. We were back and forth saying, "Did you read this part?" or "Did you see that?"

What I thought was so helpful about it is it's such an accessible book. The first book you wrote 20 years ago, "The Maker's Diet," is pretty hardcore. If you're all in on "The Maker's Diet," that's life-altering in a positive way. The "Biblio Diet" is a little bit more of an on-ramp into imagining a healthier way to live and eat. It's accessible to the general public. It was a blessing and it caused a lot of dialogue in my house.

We are living in a time when it seems to be fashionable to eat healthier, which is a real breakthrough. Every place I look these days, somebody is talking about eating real food, which I know you've been saying forever. It is encouraging to see that catching on. It feels like to me that COVID was a seismic shift. The terror of the virus from Wuhan and then some of the bad science that came out of it. Now that we are a few years on the other side, what are you seeing coming away from COVID?

Jordan Rubin: That is such a loaded question. Pastor, I think there was a point of demarcation or delineation when it came to COVID and we were on sides. Sadly, that was when we became more acquainted with World Outreach Church because the church we were going to in the Nashville area was closed and we were doing our cowboy church thing, but you had a lot of options. I remember like it was yesterday and it lasted so long. You'd say we're not passing offering plates and we may never pass offering plates. You talked about how it was going to be a week or two weeks. It was a very interesting time. In the years since then, I'm seeing the toll that whether it's the virus, viral shedding, or the shot is taking on people.

I'm personally seeing in my friends and people who communicate with me a significant set of issues on the cardiovascular side and on the immune system side, particularly related to cancer. I try to take things as literally and as truthfully as possible. There was a group of people I hung out with that were referred to as the "disinformation dozen" and they were deplatformed and canceled. Some of what they said I thought might not bear repeating until I see more information, such as those who get the shot are going to have massive coronary diseases and turbo cancers. They said the population was going to be depopulated.

Then you hear the conventional side, which says that if you don't get the shot, you're going to have all those issues. Then you hear that even if you're with someone who has COVID or has received the shot, there's viral shedding and you need a spike protein detox.

Where I land on this is that there's definitely been some damage done. I don't think it was COVID as much as a continuation of a false narrative that we could do anything we want to control our health artificially and chemically and be just fine. There's a general distrust in big medicine and big pharma. It's caused people to vote for politicians and support administrative efforts such as MAHA that is bipartisan. It's the definition of bipartisan. It's so funny. I ran into Bobby Kennedy at a gym in California while we were working out with a fitness celebrity doing some filming.

Allen Jackson: Did you challenge him to a pull-up contest?

Jordan Rubin: No, but I got a picture with him. Get this: because he was running against Trump, I was almost afraid to show my wife. My wife is very principled and she had a Trump 2020 flag on our house that is still there now. It was there for years during the time when someone else was the official president. To say that MAHA is a Republican movement is silly, but I love the fact that we're bringing some common sense into the world.

Granted, people have made jokes and satire about it, but ultimately the way to get healthy today is the same way we could get healthy thousands of years ago. What we call biohacking today was a normal course of life. You didn't have to tell Jesus and the disciples to get out and walk 10,000 steps. They may have walked 50,000 steps. If you track Jesus's movement in Scripture based on the calendar, it probably was closer to 20,000 to 50,000 steps in sandals. They were probably grounding; they were the right kind of sandals to make contact with the earth.

You didn't have to tell them to breathe fresh air. You didn't have to tell them to get morning sunlight. You didn't have to tell them to cold plunge; that's called a bath in the cooler times of the year in a spring. You didn't have to tell them to go in the sauna because the cloak and tunic they had on probably allowed for a steam room or sauna session. You didn't have to talk about polyphenols because the figs, pomegranates, and pistachios provided them.

It was a different day. What I try to do in the "Biblio Diet" and my daily life is replicate what Moses already did to live 120 years, not what someone is going to try to bioengineer. People try to have their heads frozen for a future time when the body can be recreated in cryotherapy. I'm only half joking; it gets pretty wacky out there.

Allen Jackson: But you do it in an integrated way and that's what I appreciate. You bring attention to what we are putting on our fork and into our body, but you also bring attention to our relationship with God. You can't really separate the two because you need both to be healthy. I'm really grateful for the way you've introduced that in a way that depends on your profound life experience.

If health is a challenge, it's worth taking some time to listen to what Jordan has to say. There is not a quick fix. You're not going to get a cream you rub on and wake up tomorrow with a different body. But if you will give some attention to what he is saying, I have lived it out. I appreciate your persistence because you were willing to be on the lunatic fringe for a bit.

Jordan Rubin: I've been mocked and worse. The term quack was pretty common. In fact, 25 or 30 years ago, there was a medical doctor who operated a website called quackwatch.com. It was almost a badge of honor if you were a functional medicine doctor or a nutritionist to be on the list. Somehow, as an 82-year-old former psychiatrist, he managed to be on the front page or number one or two of every Google search of your name. I don't know how that could have happened, but it's very gratifying.

I can't take credit for the principles I've learned. My dad before me was a chiropractor and naturopath, so I did grow up in this climate. Taking God's principles and looking at our health through the biblical lens has been amazing. I will say there is a universal answer. I talked to you about this backstage. On September 8th, I'm the co-author of a book launching called "Healing Prayers for Cancer." I do believe prayer is the universal answer.

Pastor, I sit here today as a believer. I've been a believer since I was 43 and I've had knowledge of Jesus since I was two years old. I was old enough to understand that the reason for Christmas is not a fat guy in a red suit. I believe this is the universal answer. If someone pressed me and said, "Jordan, I live in a place where I can't get certain supplements, or maybe I don't have insurance and I can't undergo standard of care. What is the universal answer?" it is prayer.

Someone would ask, "But Jordan, if prayer's the answer, how come everybody that prays isn't healed?" I ask God that almost every day. I'm not growing in my relationship of certainty and dogmatism with God; I'm growing in the relationship where I can ask these questions. I ask because I want to see God move more. I want him to answer the prayers I pray for people who are sick. I want to see it happen in a way that the world takes notice and everybody rushes to the altar of our churches.

While that hasn't happened today or in our lifetimes yet, I still believe people are praying the word of God out loud. The word never returns void and it's transforming their spirit. I just started a podcast this week called "The Jordan Rubin Show." I fought against that name; I had all these other cooler names. I interviewed an old acquaintance of mine who was diagnosed with a cancer recurrence of melanoma. I walked her through it using some similar principles you and I worked on together. She made it a priority like I suggested to pray this healing prayer for cancer that I created from the Bible and some great teachers.

She prayed it out loud three times a day. On the days she didn't feel like she could or she was too emotional, her husband read the prayer for her. He never let her miss. I'm getting emotional thinking about it. For anybody who's watching or listening today, that prayer is available on jordanrubin.com. It's a PDF download that can go all over the world. Send it to anyone you want. I have heard first and second-hand stories of people who have prayed that prayer and gone back for their oncological report and seen amazing results, including a local pastor here in our area.

I do believe that there is a universal answer and it is prayer. But like the Book of James says, faith or prayer and hope without action or works is dead. I think we need to do our best within our abilities to care for our body in a way that aligns with God's creation, no matter how far we've departed, no matter if it was our fault or just a lack of knowledge. Lack of knowledge from upbringing or from the medical system that preached nutrition doesn't matter is dangerous. When you're diagnosed with cancer, they tell you that you can eat Twinkies. The Bible says in Hosea 4:6 that if we lack knowledge, we'll perish. My goal with the "Biblio Diet," anything I write, or "The Jordan Rubin Show" is to make sure that people don't have a lack of knowledge.

Allen Jackson: I think Christians sometimes are very naive. We think ignorance should protect us. Ignorance is not a defense. It's not a defense against evil or against disease. We had a whole generation of Americans that we lost to smoking before we had really good evidence on how destructive it was to your physical health. I think the other thing that Christians roll into that is intent. You don't have to have the intent in order to make yourself vulnerable to evil or disease.

I'm with you. We have to be engaged in prayer. It doesn't mean we understand it fully. I don't understand nutrition fully, but I'm trying to eat better than I once did. I don't understand my phone fully, but I benefit from it and I'm not offended by that. It doesn't make me intellectually incomplete. My mom was healed of a terminal disease when I was seven and we weren't Christians. We were churched, but we weren't Christians. She lived another 50-plus years. She had breast cancer and went to the Mayo Clinic. The doctor after a full workup said, "Mrs. Jackson, you're one of those fortunate people we see from time to time. You go home and raise your babies." They became Christians and my life was changed by that.

I have seen lots of people I loved and knew loved God who weren't healed in that way. God is not a formula that we manage. We seek him and we learn about him. When Jesus went to the pools of Bethesda and healed the lame man, he didn't heal everybody who was at the pool. There are some parts of that we don't know fully, but it doesn't change our own personal journey of faith and the things we have influence over, like our own health and wellbeing and our willingness to invite God into the midst of that. In my life, God has done more than I could have asked or imagined and he continues to do that. It doesn't mean it's been pain-free or obstacle-free. I know that's been your journey.

Why do we go through those things? I don't know. But every time I've invited God in in a sincere way, I've been very grateful for that.

Jordan Rubin: In my own life, overcoming Crohn's disease, which is incurable, and overcoming terminal cancer, which was terminal, was not just for me. It was for somebody else on the other side. I think it's the same way with a marital issue, financial issue, or wayward children. If we will look for God's plan in it, I think it helps us get through. I have asked God, and I mean this, I don't want to learn this way anymore. Books are fine and other people's experiences are great, but it seems like anytime I've had a serious health challenge, God has taught me something in that which I've then shared with others. I can't look back and regret that.

In a similar fashion, Abraham didn't regret the emotions when he walked up the mountain with a big knife in his sack and his teenage son of promise walking up there with him. There's a lot we don't know about that story because it's so short relative to the movies and the lessons taught on it. I feel like we need these stepping stones of faith to take us from glory to glory as God promises. I'm half joking about not wanting to experience anymore because I know that in this world we will have tribulation, but we're of good cheer because Jesus has overcome the world.

The important part I want to mention to people is that we both know individuals we've prayed for who are no longer here. But when you're someone who is facing a diagnosis, I don't think that should be part of the understanding. I'll say this in a way that may be offensive to a particular denomination, but I grew up as a Messianic Jew in congregations that had all variances of spirit-filledness. Then I really settled into a Southern Baptist church as a teenager. With amazing teaching, I learned to have a relationship with Jesus, not just a religious experience.

When somebody was sick or on our prayer request list, we prayed, "God, if it's your will to heal so and so, please do it." After being healed myself, I wrote books and was on many platforms. Often they were Pentecostal or spirit-filled. When I was diagnosed with cancer, something changed in my prayer life where it wasn't enough to pray "Lord, if it's your will to heal me." I started saying, "By your stripes, by your wounds, I am healed." I had to attack it as if I was the only person God created and it was just me and him.

It didn't matter who passed away or who was more righteous than me. What mattered was my three children, my wife, the team of people I was responsible for, my parents, my sister, and my friends. I would really encourage people to block out anything else. You don't need to know statistics. The only statistic you should know is that someone has been healed of the same condition you have. Second, I wouldn't use it as a crutch, but he has overcome death. So we don't lose in the end. I don't encourage people who are battling a serious diagnosis to say, "I'm going to be healed whether this side of heaven or the other." I say you fight for this side. Worst-case scenario, you're with Jesus.

That's a hard one, but I counsel and coach people. It is like an Olympic athlete. You're swimming in a cold pool when everybody else is asleep. You're following a certain diet when everybody else is out having fun. I hope that one in a million becomes one in 100,000 or one in 1,000. One day, I believe we're going to see a massive outbreak of healings on this side of heaven. That's what I pray for.

I talked to you backstage about people I was asked to help with serious conditions and it ended up being too late, but that's not what I told them because I don't believe it's too late as long as you have breath in your lungs. I also don't believe it's too late even after you've been buried because we're told we're going to do greater things than Jesus. If Lazarus was able to be raised from the dead in four days, I have to believe we're going to see that too.

Allen Jackson: I'm all in on believing what Jesus said. But your point is important. God designed our bodies to heal. When I came to that awareness, it changed my whole attitude towards prayer and health. We've got a responsibility to do everything we can to promote our own health. That means what we eat matters. In our busy lives, I have found I need a little help with that. Supplements, vitamins, and nutrients have become an important part of my lifestyle.

Jordan Rubin's a friend, so ancientnutrition.com has become a part of my daily routine. They're a sponsor of this podcast because I actually use the products and believe in them. They have given us an opportunity for you to put in BACKTOHEALTH26 as a code. You'll get 26% off sitewide. Eating healthy is important, but you can do some things to add to that. Let's stay healthy so we can fulfill what God has for each one of us to do.

To me there's a parallel. I've prayed with a lot of people to make a profession of faith. Some people are dramatically changed now. They're delivered from addictions and habits. Other people, it seems like it's incremental and there's a lot of drift. I'm not saying one is more legitimate than the other. How God works in our lives we don't dictate. What we have to determine is to seek the Lord. Where I think your story is significant is that you didn't just pray. God showed you a pattern of behaviors from Scripture. It was a dramatic behavioral change. You didn't just pray and then expect God to do something while you kept eating fried chicken. God gave you a pattern that brought you a whole different kind of life. In my experience, if we're willing to let God write a new future for us, it's phenomenal what he will do. But it isn't simple or easy. I want what Naaman wanted when he came to the prophet: "Come out and clap your hands over my head and I'll be well."

The prophet said, "No, you go dip yourself in the river." Naaman was furious with it. I think we get mad at God when he doesn't bring us our instant answer. I don't hear you selling instant answers; I hear you selling a change of lifestyle that includes a consistent invitation to God and prayers. I'm an advocate for that.

Jordan Rubin: That is an interesting passage. I would love to tell you exactly what was in the river that Naaman went into because there were certain minerals, but in that case humility goes a long way. This is going to surprise people. I've traveled the world to cancer clinics and places where people go as a last-ditch effort to get healed. These people could be weeks away from dying, but there's still a lot of pride. They are arguing over what nutritional information is best or what supplements to use. I think there is a lot to being humble.

In my own cancer journey, I believe my first reaction to the prognosis that I had a 100% chance of dying in 90 days set the miracle up. I was in an oncologist's office in West Palm Beach, Florida. My wife Nikki was with me. He dropped down a folder and said, "There's more to discuss," which means not good news. He walked out the door and I told Nikki to guard the door.

What I did as a grown man was put my face on the carpet. My nose was on the carpet and I quoted Job chapter 1 verse 21. I call it Job's prayer: "Naked I came into this earth, naked I shall return. It is the Lord who gives and the Lord who takes away, blessed be the name of the Lord." I had done that maybe five times earlier in my life when I was figuratively punched in the stomach. This was one of those moments where something was happening so traumatically that I couldn't even think to go fix it. Convincing my wife to go to a leading expert would have led to excruciating treatments.

God healed me, but I don't think it was unrelated to my humbling myself before him. We can pray quickly, "Lord forgive me," but there's something different about putting on sackcloth and ashes or getting on our face before the Lord. I don't remember the last time I got on my face before the Lord after that, and this is convicting to me. I think there's more of a posture that we can offer for healing.

On the simplistic side, an old mentor of mine said what would have prevented it will cure it. A lot of what we need to do to get well is what could have prevented an illness in the first place. There are certain things that we know are indelible truths for our health. I remember being in South Africa ministering and the pastor said many people come for prayer for healing. He will ask, "How have you been sleeping?" If they say they are going to bed at 2:00 in the morning or they aren't eating right, he says, "You don't need my prayer, you need to go and do what God created your body to do."

People are doing the equivalent of stepping off of a building that's 10 stories high and praying "God help me from falling and breaking bones." The law of gravity is a law of gravity and the way he created us has similarities. We can't put diesel fuel in an unleaded engine. Something bad will happen.

Allen Jackson: No, it's not going to work out well. You're so right. People say, "Do you believe in prayer or do you believe in science?" Yes. The more I align myself with what God tells us is a healthy way to live, the healthier we get. It's not either-or. I'm not afraid of science and technology. I just think we've ignored it in wanting God to give us a supernatural fix. I found I was much more successful when I studied and prayed for my exams than when I just prayed and didn't study.

Jordan Rubin: People ask me all the time if I trust science or the word of God. It's the word of God, then history, then science, because science is observational. For example, I've been talking about the power of fasting because fasting is something we are supposed to do. Everybody does it; no one eats 24 hours a day. A recent study came out on Crohn's disease. They looked at two groups with the same severity. One group ate for 16 hours a day and one consumed food for 8 hours. It was the same amount of food. There's been speculation that intermittent fasting works because you eat less, but in this case they ate the same amount.

This group had a reduction in belly fat, lower inflammatory markers, and better cardiovascular markers. All they did was eat the same food in an 8-hour window. That proves what God already says in Isaiah 58 starting in verse 6: "This fast that I have chosen breaks the bonds of wickedness and healing will spring forth." There are studies on people being prayed for from another state and having better outcomes. There are studies on individuals who are able to forgive more easily having greater outcomes.

I even read about a man who died happy in his old age and when they did an autopsy, he was ridden with cancer. I read about someone who died young and had an autopsy performed and had no physical maladies, but was an angry, bitter person. We know that anxiety in the heart weighs a man down. A good word makes him glad. When you take the best spiritual, emotional, and physical advice, that is how you can be healthy.

Allen Jackson: Jordan, it feels like we've got to wrap up. You've got a new book coming out September the 8th. Tell us the title again.

Jordan Rubin: "Healing Prayers for Cancer." Dr. Pete Sulack and myself are taking out the sword of the spirit, which is the word of God, and it will work for you better than any surgeon's blade. It will work because God says his word does not return void. I'm excited about this book. I hope people will grab it and give it as a gift.

I'm really hoping people will think of three individuals they know who are battling a cancer diagnosis. Prayer request lists are full of prayers for cancer because of how many lives we've lost. I'm so excited to get this in people's hands because it is a tool. If you decide to undergo radiation, chemotherapy, or surgery, you need prayer. If you decide to drink carrot juice or go to a clinic in Mexico, you need prayer.

I do think this is the universal answer and I'm really hoping we see the tide turn on new cancer diagnoses. I have to believe it because God said it. God said that when two or more are gathered, he is in our midst. God says that we seek and knock. These are all parables of Jesus that are true. It's available for pre-order now, "Healing Prayers for Cancer." We can only do so much for people who need healing, but this is a gift that I believe will multiply in the kingdom.

People always want something new. Let's say this is the latest in a great line of books on prayer. It is specifically focused on cancer, written by two people who have overcome this disease and are living to tell about it.

Allen Jackson: I thank you for your persistent voice in helping us be healthy and seek the Lord. It is a gift to the body of Christ. You are the owner of Heal the Planet Farm and have a lot to say about sustainable farming. You also co-founded Ancient Nutrition with Dr. Axe back in 2016. Thank you for your work.

Jordan Rubin: Sometimes we need a little bit of help from our friends. I want to make sure nutrition is accessible. Now we're seeing fast food restaurants come along with reasonable options. The wind is at our back, so it's time we take advantage.

The only way you will turn around your behavior as it relates to health is to understand the importance God has placed on you. If we see ourselves the way God does, we would want to practice the very best for our temples. I used this analogy once in a church service: if God calls us the temple of the Holy Spirit, why would we put junk in this temple? How would security guards feel if somebody brought a dumpster of garbage and dumped it on the platform? They would be rushed out.

We can't take this church that God dwells in and put things that are disgusting in it. Knowingly and unknowingly, we're doing that to our bodies today. If we make these changes, God will meet us more than halfway and that's where we're going to see these miracles come.

Allen Jackson: The how-to is in God's hands. What we're responsible for is being as obedient as we know how. Jordan's a sponsor of the podcast and helped make it possible. They brought us a new offer. Go to ancientnutrition.com and use the code BACKTOHEALTH26 for 26% off sitewide. Thank you for what you're doing.

Jordan Rubin: Thank you for supporting us and for your voice in this community. It's a huge blessing and may God continue to multiply your church and your reach.

Allen Jackson: You come back and see us again. Give us an update. Thank you and stay healthy.

Thanks for joining me today. Before you go, please like the podcast and leave a comment. Subscribe to the Allen Jackson Ministries YouTube channel and follow the Culture and Christianity podcast on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. Together, let's learn how to lead with our faith. We can change our culture. I'll see you next time.