Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage

Narrator: Pastors, if you’re struggling to help couples in your church whose marriage is in trouble, we can help. Marriage 911 by Focus on the Family trains laypeople to mentor married couples. Each kit includes two training guides, four workbooks, and all the training necessary to meet with couples who need help. Go to marriage911.com. That’s marriage, the numbers 9-1-1, dot com.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Welcome to Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage. I’m Dr. Greg Smalley.

Erin Smalley: And I’m Erin Smalley. Before we get started today, we wanted to share an email we got from a listener. Her name is Lori and she listens in Ohio.

This is what she wrote: "Do you ever wonder what the rest of the story is when Greg and Erin do their podcast? I listen faithfully and I was drawn to an interview with Julie Slattery. You talked about pornography addiction and suggested the organization Pure Desire. My husband has suffered with this before we married as well as throughout our marriage, and we just celebrated 47 years.

After I heard the podcast, my husband and we listened to it together. He was able to get into a group and is on his way to healing and restoration. Without your podcast, we would not be where we are. Thank you so much. All the glory goes to God and I’m grateful for Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage."

Dr. Greg Smalley: Well, this brings some emotion and tears. I always love to ask this, if your tears could talk, what would they be saying right now, Erin?

Erin Smalley: You always ask that. That was mine. It touches me that someone listening to our podcast after 47 years of marriage—which is admirable anyway—that it was applied to her marriage, that she took it and her husband responded. That’s what touches me and that he got help. Thank God.

Dr. Greg Smalley: I am just in awe. Lori, thank you so much. 47 years and still fighting for their marriage is impressive. We talk at the end of every show about this idea of wanting to see you guys grow as individuals, as a couple, so that—well, this is the "so that."

This is to go now, Lori. To think about you and your husband now turning around and investing into another couple. Maybe someone going through that issue within their marriage, pornography. Thinking they’ve got a great story, they can show how God’s shown up, what He’s done, His faithfulness. That’s why we do the show.

Erin Smalley: I think so often we talk about pornography, we talk about conflict, we talk about anger, all these different things, but we never really know if it goes beyond a theoretical conversation. That is application. I know there are many, many stories out there like Lori’s.

If you have listened and you have applied it to your marriage and it’s made a difference—or if it hasn’t made a difference—we want to hear from you. We want to express how grateful we are that your husband found healing and how grateful we are that you trusted us with something that personal. It’s so personal, but thank you for trusting us. That’s exactly the heart behind what we’re doing today, too.

We hope you find this episode as something you can share with your small group, your friends at church, and your family as well because we’re continuing to break down an idea that we don’t think is very healthy. It’s called the manosphere. If you didn’t catch last week’s podcast, you should start there. Listen to last week’s first and then we’re going to continue the discussion right after this.

Narrator: Pastors, if you’re struggling to help couples in your church whose marriage is in trouble, we can help. Marriage 911 by Focus on the Family trains laypeople to mentor married couples. Each kit includes two training guides, four workbooks, and all the training necessary to meet with couples who need help. Go to marriage911.com. That’s marriage, the numbers 9-1-1, dot com.

Erin Smalley: Last time, we walked through how the manosphere builds its case for control, for men to control, starting with a curse it mistakes for a command, a headship it redefines as authority, and a submission it turns into something to enforce. All concerning.

Today, we’re going to look at what that produces: three more lies that the manosphere enforces about how a husband treats his wife’s heart, her character, and her body. Let’s start with the heart, Greg, because this next lie tells a husband that the strongest thing he can do is feel nothing at all.

Dr. Greg Smalley: This is the one that probably had the most impact on me personally, and I’ll explain why here in a moment. Basically, this lie is all around the manosphere preaching that a husband’s emotional vulnerability is actually a weakness. They might say something like this: "A husband should never show weakness."

Emotional vulnerability, empathy, or apology make him less attractive and diminish his authority. Instead, he should remain emotionally detached by what they call "holding frame." He should never, ever, ever let his wife see that she has affected him. Imagine living your life and your marriage like that as a husband. It would be horrible for a wife, but why would you ever want to show up that way?

Erin Smalley: Wouldn’t you say that this just feeds right into the lie that has been generational, that a man shouldn’t feel? A real man doesn’t cry. This just plays right into that lie. I’m telling you what I see consistently in my practice working with couples. It’s when a man is tender and vulnerable and shows his heart that his wife leans in and connects with him at that deep, deep level. This saddens me.

Dr. Greg Smalley: I know anyone who follows that manosphere teaching would be calling me a "simp" right now. That’s a very derogatory term in the manosphere language describing a guy who is emotionally available and who is apologizing, really trying to understand not only his wife’s feelings but what she desires and meeting those.

They actually take it that step further and actually really demean a guy and mock him. I used this phrase, "holding frame." This is classic manosphere playbook. Basically, what this means is that you need to be emotionally unreadable and unaffected. Rather than entering into a wife’s emotions, you need to stay detached.

You certainly would avoid apologizing and refuse to let her influence any decision that you’re trying to make, believing that emotional distance preserves authority. This is a classic playbook move. For example, let’s say that you’re frustrated about something. For us, yesterday was trash day.

Let’s say that I was busy, I totally forgot, so I didn’t get the trash out and it was overflowing and you’re just super frustrated by that. Let’s say you come to me. How might you approach me?

Erin Smalley: I might say, "Hey Greg, I noticed you got the trash can to the curb, but you left trash all over the place. I’m not okay with that."

Dr. Greg Smalley: You could have put that out yourself. You have two arms and two legs. Why are you coming to me with this? Just put it out there next time. This is more your issue than mine. Why don’t you jump in?

That’s holding frame. Nothing that you would say I would allow. It would be awful as a husband to treat you that way, to never allow your frustration versus just saying something like, "I can see you’re frustrated, tell me more about that."

Erin Smalley: Or saying, "I care, sorry that I blew it."

Dr. Greg Smalley: Now, here is where it gets worse. They teach something called the "dread game." When emotional distance or holding frame isn’t enough, some teach husbands to deliberately create insecurity by withdrawing affection, acting indifferent, or making their wives fear losing them.

In other words, I want to make sure that you know that I’ve got better options out there. If you don’t shape up, if you don’t give me what I want, if you reject me sexually, or if you’re arguing and being difficult, not only am I going to withdraw from entering into your emotions by holding frame, but I’m going to take it a step further and create dread so that you actually experience anxiety. Now you’re wondering, "Am I just going to leave? Maybe I have a better option out there somewhere." This is what these husbands are being taught.

Erin Smalley: This is awful. Think about, especially for a wife who has an anxious attachment, then to have her spouse doing these things. It’s the person who is supposed to be her safe person, but yet intentionally—I mean, we do these things sometimes unintentionally, maybe if we’re triggered—but intentionally choosing to lay these patterns in your marriage? Why?

Dr. Greg Smalley: Let’s talk about what the Bible actually says. Think about it. God’s definition of strength is not holding frame. It is not creating dread. It’s not emotional detachment. It’s all about sacrificial love. Christ didn’t protect himself from love’s cost. He literally gave himself away. Think about how many emotions God describes within the scripture, and that Jesus talks about. Jesus wept. We all know that verse.

In other words, God is not hiding the emotion that he experienced. He chose to include that in his word for all of us to see. And not just an emotion here or there. You think of King David. This is a man after God’s own heart who laments. We have an entire book of Psalms hearing about David’s lament around his emotions. Those are real men, by the way.

Erin Smalley: Right. God created us male and female holistically. He gave us a heart so we feel all emotions, as well as He gave us a brain so we can think through decisions based on the information emotions give us. I saw somewhere that there was a young man who was attributing to this manosphere belief system and he talked about that his brother had died. Because of the manosphere, he did not cry.

He just stuffed it and did not give himself permission to feel. I’m telling you, that does not go well. If you stuff every emotion, you bury them alive. That will come up later. We’re going to see it as anger, as depression, anxiety. It will work its way out physically in his body. You just go, this is against the exact design that God gave us as His sons and daughters. He gave us a heart for a reason.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Let me talk more about this emotional vulnerability that the manosphere would preach against and that Jesus absolutely embraces. This is where I was saying that I’ve been more impacted by this lie because of this. Let’s go right to the scriptures, Ephesians 5. Paul is talking to husbands and wives. In Ephesians 5:25, we all know that one. It says husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.

The rest of it has always been confusing to me. To make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church without stain, wrinkle, or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. For years, I would see those words and I just never connected to them. It sounded like some sort of laundry detergent commercial right there in the scriptures. I didn’t understand those words.

But to truly dig in, you’ve got to understand this. Again, we’re being told to love our wives as Christ loved the church, to sacrifice. Then Paul uses this phrase, "to make." Basically, what he’s saying is that here is the difference that your sacrifice actually makes. Here is the purpose of you sacrificing. Sacrifice in and of itself is not the end. That’s the means to then doing what he lays out in verses 26 and 27 with all those words that don’t make a lot of sense.

They do actually now not only make a lot of sense to me, but now I fully understand what Paul is saying. He’s saying that this is what Jesus did. He sacrificed for His bride, the church, so that, "to make" her flourish. He nourished her, He invested in her for one purpose, and that was to help her to become the best version of who God created her to be. It’s all about flourishing.

When you think about a lot of this garbage that the manosphere is out there preaching, at the end of the day, as husband, as leader, that God-given role, I’m sacrificing, I’m loving you through my sacrifice so that, "to make" you become the best version that God created you to be, to see you flourish. That’s the evidence.

It’s like we’ve talked about before. At the end of my life, I want it to have mattered that you were married to me. Not just that I ruled over you and made you submit. None of that matters. I don’t want to have minimized you or not utilized your gifts as our team. Holding frame, creating dread in you? That’s not the design of marriage.

I would venture to say that anybody subscribing to the manosphere ideology, that red pill philosophy, at the end of their life, laying there with their last few breaths, they’re not going to be going, "I’m so glad that I got her to submit to me one more time, that I created a little bit more dread in her life."

Hopefully, on my deathbed, I’m able to find peace that you’re telling me that being married to me actually made a difference in your life, that you became a better person because of my sacrifice, because of the way that I loved you, because of the way I was willing to enter into your emotions and accept your influence and help you to become the best version of who God’s created you to be and to see you flourish.

Erin Smalley: And vice versa, that I want to know that as well. As you say that, like the end of your life, how many marriages even make it through this? If you’ve demanded that your wife submits and created dread and held frame, how many marriages are destroyed because of this? At the end of your life, do you even have a marriage? Do you have a spouse?

Dr. Greg Smalley: That’s why this is so insidious. It’s taking these secular manosphere concepts and applying biblical framework, using verses, using those words headship, submission. Thus, for a lot of women, they believe that in fact is God’s design and desire. That’s what makes this so awful and which is why we wanted to have this conversation.

I love how the Apostle Paul then goes on. Once he establishes the purpose of loving your wife sacrificially is to help her to flourish, then he goes on. Remember, that requires you’re nurturing that. Then he goes on in verses 28 and 29 in Ephesians 5 to give some real definition. That’s where he talks about those two words we’ve talked about before, which I love: to cherish her, to nourish her, just as Christ did.

He bookends what he’s telling husbands here. He starts with saying, "Hey guys, as Christ laid down his life for his bride, so should you do that." Now he’s ending this whole passage of what it means to then help her flourish, which means I’m going to cherish you and nourish you. He ends by saying, "and that, by the way, again, is what Christ did." Everything that Paul’s saying, he’s saying do as Christ did.

What I love about the word cherish—we’ve taught this for a long time, but I’ve even learned even a better way to describe this—cherish means to treat your wife with a tender, protective care, creating warmth and safety and security. The question for every husband is: does she feel safe with you? That’s cherish. The more I cherish you, the more you should then feel safe. In the Greek, that’s "to warm." As I see you as valuable, as I’m nurturing you. Paul uses this analogy later on about a mother bird caring over her egg. That kind of tenderness, that kind of careful attention, that warmth that it creates.

Erin Smalley: And you’re saying, does she feel safe? That’s both physically—she has to feel safe—and emotionally, that she feels safe. She knows when she reveals her heart or her greatest fear or her emotions, that it’s safe. She’s going to be valued and heard and seen and accepted and loved. That is the definition of safety.

Dr. Greg Smalley: That’s why this is going directly against what the manosphere is saying. Instead of creating dread, instead of holding frame, this is helping her to feel safe. Nourish means to nurture her to full maturity, so to help her grow into all who God has created her to be. The question for every husband then is: is your wife flourishing because of you? Not "is she submitting to you?" or "is she experiencing dread so that she stays with you?" None of that. This was so meaningful to me because it gave me such a simple frame to go, "Erin, do you feel safe with me? Erin, do you feel like you’re flourishing as my wife?" I should probably literally ask you that, but I hope... it would be really awkward if you said no.

Erin Smalley: That is not true at all. I feel very supported, very encouraged.

Dr. Greg Smalley: And I’m human and I make plenty of mistakes. But again, that’s why it’s garbage, this emotional detachment, the indifference, the insecurity. Those are not leadership tools. You cannot help your wife to flourish by keeping her at a distance. That’s just a reality. You cannot create safety while teaching her to fear you.

The manosphere basically is saying, "Protect your heart to keep your power." I wouldn’t even say protect; I would say silo your heart off to keep your power and your composure. Actually, Jesus says, "Give your heart to demonstrate your love." Emotional vulnerability was never weakness, was never considered weakness. It’s the very strength that Christ modeled and it’s the kind of love every husband is called to imitate.

It’s important to be in touch with your emotions and to express them vulnerably in ways that feel safe. But Greg, once a husband starts believing his wife’s emotions are something to manage instead of enter into, it’s a short step away from the next lie, right? Believing his wife herself is something to manage and that she can’t really be trusted. Where are they getting this stuff from?

Dr. Greg Smalley: They would say it’s a biological fact, which is scary. Lie number five: women are fundamentally untrustworthy. You would hear this claim through the manosphere that women are biologically programmed to be disloyal. They call that "hypergamy." They’re manipulative, they’re always looking for a higher status man. A husband’s job then is to manage her, to monitor her, and then to never fully trust her.

You can imagine what that sets up. Now I’m worried that you’re always going to be looking to trade up. Now I’ve got to monitor that, I’ve got to watch, I’ve got to notice when I think you’re heading in that direction and then jump in.

But here is what scripture actually teaches. God never, ever describes a wife as a liability to manage. He describes her as a gift. These are the words that he uses: you’re a treasure, you’re a crown, you’re a co-heir, you’re a covenant partner. Proverbs 18:22: "The man who finds a wife finds a treasure, and then he receives favor from the Lord." It’s not that you’re untrustworthy. God’s saying your wife, Erin, who I’ve given to you, she is an amazing treasure.

Probably my favorite verse that really counters all of this garbage about women being fundamentally untrustworthy is 1 Peter 3:7. This is where Peter says, "Likewise, husbands, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you in this grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered." Three things are going on there.

One, when Peter uses the word "showing honor," that word "honor" means it’s the honor that’s owed to God and to Christ. He’s saying the same way that you honor God, the God of this universe, you need to show that exact same sort of honor to your wife. Don’t treat her as untrustworthy; actually step that way up and actually honor her because she is a co-heir. We’re partners in this grace that God’s provided.

Then he makes it very, very personal: a husband who fails then to do that, to honor his wife, he finds his own prayers hindered. God is literally tying her treatment, how I treat you, directly to my spiritual vitality. That’s a big, big deal.

There are so many good verses throughout the scriptures. I think of Proverbs 5:18 and 19: "Let your fountain be blessed and rejoice in the wife of your youth. May you ever be intoxicated by her love." Ecclesiastes is talking about enjoying this life with your wife. Never is it even questioning your hypergamy. Is Erin going to be looking to trade up to find that higher-value dude? No, it’s saying to me, you’ve been unfaithful to the wife of your youth, to your covenant wife. Do not be unfaithful to the wife of your youth. "The man who hates divorce," this is in Malachi 2:16, "does violence to the one that he should protect."

I love in Proverbs 31 that her husband has full confidence in her. She brings him good, not harm, all the days of his life. Do you hear the wording? That you’re a treasure. What you do, you bring confidence to me, not just for this season until you trade me up for a better deal, a better option, but all the days of her life. Scripture’s recognizing the faithfulness of a wife. That she’s a crown, that she’s a jewel, that she’s a treasure. All these things go so against what the manosphere teaches.

Erin Smalley: Basically, the manosphere is teaching a husband to see his wife as a suspect instead of a partner, a teammate, a gift. He’s seeing her as a potential defector or a liability to even manage. Scripture calls him to cherish her as God’s treasured gift instead. One breeds suspicion, control, and fear; the other builds honor, trust, and a love that actually lasts a lifetime. Huge, huge difference.

But Greg, there’s one more place that all of this suspicion and control ends up, and it’s the most personal one. If a husband has convinced himself his wife’s loyalty is conditional and her worth is something to evaluate, what happens when that same logic reaches the marriage bed?

Dr. Greg Smalley: Kind of what you hear is this last lie, and I hear this all the time: that a wife’s body belongs to her husband. Here’s kind of how the manosphere might frame this. A husband’s sexual desire is a biological and spiritual need. Because his wife’s body belongs to him, really, she has a biblical duty to meet that need and that he has the biblical right to expect and, if necessary, to demand sex. If she refuses, she is depriving him, increasing his temptation and failing in her God-given responsibility.

Erin Smalley: This is treacherous. So many images of wives I’ve met with sitting in my office sobbing because they’re not a good wife because this is what they’ve been told. I would say yes, it’s part of the manosphere, but I think overall it is a belief that is infiltrated within the church. Somehow, some way, I’m not a human being that is able to utilize my voice to say "not tonight." It is always a "yes," which causes me to be nothing more than really a piece of meat. I’m not a human being that I don’t have a right to guard me.

Dr. Greg Smalley: To your point, why this is so treacherous as you put it, is because people are using probably the single most weaponized verse in the entire Bible, and that’s 1 Corinthians 7:3 through 5. I know we’ve gone long, hang with us. Let’s get into this. Here is what the verse says:

"The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time."

The problem is the words that often then are weaponized because you see it. It does say duty. You see the word deprived. You don’t have authority over your own body. The problem is that people have latched onto those phrases or those words and have weaponized them. Before addressing how this has been weaponized or misused, remember what it actually affirms: that sexual intimacy is God’s gift to us in marriage. It’s meant to be mutual, joyful, and freely given, not endured, negotiated, or extracted.

That is one of the number one things that’s missed around sex and marriage. It’s a gift that God gives us and that it’s to be mutually enjoyed, which means that we both matter. This wasn’t a formula or a bunch of words to use against your spouse to get them to have sex with you. This is really Paul affirming that this is a majorly important part of marriage and he’s encouraging couples to have sex.

Actually, that was the purpose of this passage. Paul wasn’t giving husbands permission to demand sex. He’s actually calling both husbands and wives to a mutual self-giving love, a mutual sexual generosity, because he was correcting what was going on in the Corinth church. They were really believing that to reach kind of this place of sacred worship, they shouldn’t be having sex.

These married couples within the church were saying, "We’re just going to abstain from sex so we can really enter in this sacred place." Paul’s finding out about that and saying, "No, no, no. That’s not good for you two as individuals or for your marriage." That’s literally what he’s correcting. He’s trying to tell these early church people who were abstaining voluntarily to not do that unless it’s for a very specific purpose.

But see, no one knows that. We just use it like, "I initiated and you said no. Let me remind you what the Bible says. Be a good wife." Because what’s so confusing about that is, depending on the day you’ve had, you most certainly might go, "I’m just not in that right spot. I’ve had a headache, I’m going through something," whatever it is. But now I have God backing you up and saying what you’re saying to me is your duty.

Erin Smalley: I literally have had clients in my office that have been so brutally treated because of this verse. They’ve got something going on, they’ve been in the ER, they’ve been sick, they’ve been up all night with kids, and it’s the husband going, "Nope, it’s your duty and whatever. I don’t care what’s going on with you."

Dr. Greg Smalley: And that is so not what Paul is writing here. The Greek word behind duty—again, I won’t even try to say it—but it means a debt owed, not a favor granted. The emphasis is "I owe you," not "you owe me." It’s the same word but the opposite direction. Duty was never permission to take. It was an instruction to give. That’s telling me that I don’t own my body, that’s yours. I want to give this gift of sex to you, not turn it around as a way to demand that your body is now my body and now I want to take.

The beautiful part of this passage is the mutuality. Paul, it’s a beautiful whatever he’s saying to the husband, he says exactly to the wife. Whatever he says to the wife, he says exactly then to the husband. He’s not saying this to one or the other; he’s saying this exactly the same way, the same verbs, the same exact number of words to both. He’s saying that you’re both responsible for this sexual relationship in your marriage.

It’s actually me going, my body is not my body. Someone who’s given away his body then can’t turn around and say, "But hey, you owe me this and I’m entitled to this and it’s your duty to do this." It’s almost the image that keeps coming to my mind. You picture a big old birthday gift with a big red bow on top of it. It’s like me offering you this gift but going, "Hey, because I’m giving this to you, you owe me a gift back, and I’m going to take it whether you’re giving it to me or not." Versus a gift is something that’s given freely and it’s received with gratitude.

As a young husband, I remember hearing all the advice, like, "Hey, you need to pursue Erin outside the bedroom. You’ve got to woo her throughout the day." I remember my dad would send me these little notes like, "Hey, I saw this research study and guys who vacuum more have more sex." I remember him on stage with a vacuum cleaner. I don’t know what was going on in my parents’ bedroom, but who knows?

But the point is that I heard all that and it became a formula in my mind. You see, for me, that formula led to a ledger, and that ledger eventually into a grievance. I just thought because I was doing all these things—I was wooing you, I was romancing you, I was helping out around the house, I was doing more vacuuming—that that should equate in you being more available and I would receive that "yes" that I was longing for.

But all that became then a grievance to me. The sad part then is that I would then let you really watch me sulk and then I would be all huffy and puffy and put out and roll over and say, "Okay, fine, whatever." All that was manipulation. All that was entitlement. It’s everything that the Apostle Paul in that verse does not stand for.

The governing principle in 1 Corinthians 7 is mutuality. Every responsibility Paul gives to a wife, he gives equally to the husband. Neither spouse has the greater sexual rights or authority over the other. If abstinence, as he talks about, is for a limited time and it’s something we mutually agree to, it’s the same logic for putting myself out there to say, "Hey, what about tonight?" That matters to both and both have a voice. That’s the beauty of Paul’s scripture.

Again, think about when this was written. Wives had no rights over their own body, literally. A husband was free to sexually take her whenever and have other relationships. She had none of those rights, and he could divorce her at any point and ruin her. What he’s saying is truly radical.

At the end of the day, he’s saying that just because you say not tonight, that’s not depriving. Now, truly, again, if sex is absent and your marriage feels more sexless, that’s a big deal. That is depriving and you guys need to go and get some help around that.

Erin Smalley: And that’s what I was even thinking as we were talking. This isn’t saying that thus, wives, you can say no all the time. But if that is happening, it’s worth investigating. But when you investigate your sex life, do that as a team. Do that together to figure out what is going on relationally, what’s going on even physically. Looking at what is really going on together, investigating it as a team.

Dr. Greg Smalley: The last thing I’ll say is that in what Paul is saying, as husbands, we can’t then blame our sexual temptation on our wife’s lack of sexual availability. I hear this all the time too, clinically. Just take it right to James 1:14: "But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire." Just because you say no, I can’t then go, "Well, now I’m vulnerable to temptation."

Erin Smalley: That’s a fear that I hear from women all day long. If I don’t do this, then I’m not only not a good wife, but then he’s going to act out and it’s my fault. I take responsibility for... and that is not true. We are individually each accountable for our behaviors. If we act out, our reactions, all of it.

A Christian husband doesn’t use the Bible to pressure his wife into sex. He uses the Bible to learn how to love her so well that intimacy can flourish in an atmosphere of trust, safety, and mutual desire. That’s all six lies. We’ve covered all six: the curse mistaken for a command, headship mistaken for authority, submission turned into something to enforce, emotional detachment mistaken for strength, suspicion where there should be trust, and last, entitlement where there should be intimacy.

Healthy marriages are not built on power winning or keeping score. We know that. They’re built on conversation, acts of kindness, apologies, and choosing love over and over again. We hope this conversation has challenged you, encouraged you, and maybe even sparked a meaningful discussion around your own dinner table with your spouse.

Dr. Greg Smalley: If you’re wishing, "Man, I wish there was a transcript of everything that we’re saying," we actually have an article that’s extremely comprehensive. It goes through everything that we’ve talked about, all six lies, and so we’ll go ahead and put that link in the show notes.

Erin Smalley: To the women who are listening, we want to encourage you: share this podcast with your sons, because they’re looking for purpose. Share it with your husband, because he’s wanting to be respected. And share it with other wives, as they’re longing to be understood. Although we talked about the manosphere, so much of what was shared today involves the truth about what scripture really says and how that is applied to a healthy, vibrant marriage.

Dr. Greg Smalley: I would say to the guys, share this with your circle of friends. Bring this into your men’s Bible study. Listen to it, talk about it, go through those scriptures. Have someone bring up the Greek and the Hebrew word. You guys can look at the same thing that I saw. I’ve had guys try to argue with me and I’m like, "Dude, I’m just... here’s the verse. Let’s correct some of these distortions that the church well-meaning men have preached at us that maybe that we’ve misunderstood and now have weaponized into some of what we talked about."

Erin Smalley: And we have a resource we think that will be super helpful in all of this conversation. It’s called Bearded Gospel Men: The Epic Quest for Manliness and Godliness. You can probably tell by the title it uses humor to draw men into a deeper pursuit of Christ.

Dr. Greg Smalley: That’s what’s cool about this resource. One page may have you laughing at the tongue-in-cheek beard jokes while, really, the next chapter, the next page even, is going to challenge you with the stories of the sacrificial faith of a missionary, a martyr, or even a pastor. There are such great stories. It all points to consistent habits of godly men who served others, sacrificed for their convictions, and pursued Christ over comfort. That’s so much of what we’ve been talking about. This 31-day devotional can be yours for a gift of any amount. Just click on our show notes for more.

Erin Smalley: Again, we want to reinforce: if at any point during this conversation, you have realized like, "I’m being abused," or something is off in my relationship, or you related to, "I had past sexual abuse and I don’t want to minimize any of that," that’s all very, very tender. Please feel free to call us here at Focus on the Family, 1-800-A-FAMILY. That’s 1-800, the letter A, and then F-A-M-I-L-Y. We have licensed Christian counselors who want to walk with you into healing.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Well, thank you for joining us on Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage.

Erin Smalley: Yes, thank you for following the show and sharing it with your friends and family. We want you to have a seat at the table every week as we help equip you and your spouse to have a lifelong satisfying marriage.

Dr. Greg Smalley: We talk about the importance of growing spiritually as individuals and as a couple, which is why we spent so much time today and in last week’s episode really going carefully through these scriptures. We want these scriptures to make such a big difference in your life.

Erin Smalley: And we want to equip you then to invest in other couples to help them build thriving marriages.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Well, thanks for listening. We’ll talk to you again next Monday about this crazy little thing called marriage.

Narrator: If you’re a pastor wanting to save and strengthen marriages in your congregation, we’ve got a great tool for you. Marriage 911 by Focus on the Family trains laypeople to mentor couples who may be on the verge of divorce or who want to strengthen what they already have. The kit includes two leader guides, four workbooks, and all the training necessary to meet with and mentor men and women who need help. Visit marriage911.com. That’s marriage, the numbers 9-1-1, dot com.