Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage

Guest (Male): Being a dad is a high calling, so as a couple, listen together to a new seasonal podcast from Focus on the Family, Legacy of Courage. It shares real stories from dads who have been there, reminders about the power of showing up consistently, the importance of modeling a heart for God, and encouragement to enjoy those funny moments we all experience. Listen together to Legacy of Courage at celebratingfathers.com.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Welcome to Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage. I'm Dr. Greg Smalley and of course, as always joined by my beautiful wife, Erin Smalley.

Erin Smalley: Oh, thank you, my handsome husband, Dr. Greg Smalley. You know, we hear about people winning the lottery and then a year later being hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. Today's guest has a similar story and now he travels all around the country sharing his financial knowledge. We'll hear from him about how couples can better handle their personal finances. Such an important topic.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Absolutely. You know, later we're going to show you how to transform your home into a mini carnival. This is going to be so much fun, so stay tuned. Afterwards then, we'll answer a question from a listener about how to encourage her husband to read the Bible more.

Erin Smalley: All of that is coming up on today's episode. We'll get to all of it right after this. Our guest today is Matt Bell. Matt is a full-time biblical money management writer and speaker. He serves as managing editor at Sound Mind Investing. Sound Mind Investing is America's best-selling investment newsletter written from a biblical perspective. Matt and his wife, Jude, are the parents of three children and live in the Louisville area. And he's written a book that I'm super excited about called Starting Strong: Discovering the Good That Money Can Do in Your Marriage. Matt, welcome to Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage.

Matt Bell: Erin and Greg, it's great to be with you guys.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Well, it's wonderful to have you. Going through your book, one of the things that stood out right off the bat was just your willingness to be vulnerable. Because you talk about kind of a little bit of a prodigal son kind of moment in your twenties that sounds like after receiving an inheritance, it really began to formulate your passion around helping people with their finances. So we'd love to have you tell us about that prodigal son moment in your own life.

Matt Bell: Sure. I call it an inheritance well squandered. When I was in my mid-twenties, an uncle of mine passed away, and unbeknownst to me, he had written me into his will. I had no idea. So he left me $60,000. It was this amazing gift. I was just so grateful. I was so overwhelmed by it. It just felt like this incredible opportunity, and I saw it that way.

I had good intentions with that money. I thought if I could do anything, and it seemed like a chance to do anything I wanted in my life, I would create my dream job, something I would love to do all of my days. And so I thought about what do I most love to do? Well, I love to golf and I love to travel. Those seem like expenses, not money makers, but I was trained as a writer and so I came up with a newsletter for golfers who take golf vacations.

While it lasted, it was a blast. I got to travel seven to ten days each month. I played these amazing golf courses like Pebble Beach and these beautiful courses along Spain's Costa del Sol. It was just having the time of my life. But I wasn't exactly managing the money very well. I was living this sort of dream existence. Two years after inheriting the money, I literally felt like waking up one day to the realization that I was now actually in financial trouble.

I had gone through the entire $60,000 and another $20,000 on credit cards. I was so blind to what was happening with the money and so just loving the life I was living that it kind of made me sort of blind to what was happening to the money. When the money ran out, I just kept funding this dream world on credit cards. And so it was a very humbling, discouraging, truly depressing time in my life.

I went from living this amazing life to living in my parents' basement for six months. I was thankful that they had that safety net that they could provide for me, but it was still a very difficult time as I just thought every day of how I had messed up and missed out on this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. But God in His graciousness used it for good. A friend from college reached out, shared his faith with me, and kind of took me along this journey of helping me understand what the Bible says.

He said some challenging things like, "Matt, the more you lean on your own understanding, the more things haven't worked out so well," which I couldn't deny the truth of that, as painful as it might have been to hear that. But that was the catalyst. That was the catalyst that God used to get my attention and to ultimately draw me into a relationship with Him. And then it gave me this real interest in learning and then eventually teaching others about money. So in the end, I'm really thankful for having gone through that experience.

Dr. Greg Smalley: That makes sense. When you think about just your money personality or some of the lessons that you learned growing up, what were some of the things that kind of shaped your behavior around money?

Matt Bell: That's a great question. When I look back, I really see that the early lessons that I think that all of us learn about money, you think, a young kid, you're not really learning about money, but you really are. Kids are just sponges, as you guys know, and they're watching, they're observing, and they're developing habits. I think that from a young age, I developed a real love of money. I worked very hard. I had a heart, a diligent work ethic because I wanted to buy things.

There were things I wanted to buy. And so working and earning and spending, those were the main financial things on my radar screen. And so as I got older and got acclimated to doing that, to spending freely, and then I discovered credit cards, and now I could buy a lot of things and only pay for a little bit of them. That was great. It was free money, right? No, it wasn't. But I just saw that those early habits and ways of thinking about money, they got multiplied as I got older and had access to more.

That's another lesson that I like to bring to parents about teaching their kids. It's really important to teach kids about money from an early age. I grew up in a household where we were not a church-going family, so questions or conversations about how money might interact with or be affected by a relationship with God, that was not part of the conversation growing up. That came later through this mismanagement of the inheritance. But I think that those early lessons really, really do matter.

Erin Smalley: That makes a lot of sense, and I think we'll probably get into advice for parents as we talk, like how do we equip the next generation to handle money well. We have a daughter that's 18 and is about to go to college, and inside I'm going, I hope we've taught her something, something good. I mean, I have, so okay. Can you help us? Counsel us on our money issues. So, Matt, part of your financial advice and something that you highlighted in the book is doing your job well. How does that relate to Jesus in the parable of the talents?

Matt Bell: Well, in the parable of the talents, when as a new Christian I came across the parable of the talents, that was life-changing for me. I lingered on those verses a long time because I think the parable of the talents is the most clear depiction in the Bible of what our relationship with God and money is to be. In the parable of the talents, Jesus depicts the kingdom of heaven as a man going on a journey, who represents God, who temporarily entrusts all that he owns to three servants, who represent us.

We are to manage wisely the master's resources for his purposes and according to his principles. And so this is really foundational. It's foundational for teaching kids. It's foundational for a newly married couple or a couple coming together in marriage to be able to understand that. To me, that's the beginning of financial wisdom is acknowledging the truth that God owns everything, that we are managers or stewards of His resources. That's huge. And that is completely different than what the culture teaches.

The culture teaches that we're owners. The culture teaches that we're consumers. A consumer versus a steward, completely different things. And so that really is the beginning of financial wisdom. It's the starting point of biblical money management.

Erin Smalley: How would you say that husbands and wives are like the three servants with the talents?

Matt Bell: There are several things about that. For one thing, it says that each one was entrusted with a different amount based on their current ability. And so some people think, well, I don't have enough money. Well, you've been entrusted with as much as you can handle right now. And then the parable basically depicts that as you're faithful, as you're good at managing the resources according to God's principles and for His purposes, you'll be entrusted with more.

The two servants who made more of what was entrusted to them were strongly affirmed. The master said to them, "Well done, good and faithful servant. You've been faithful with little. I will set you over much. Come share in the master's happiness." And so again, that's really the starting point to understand that we don't own these things. We don't have the rights to these things. It's kind of like if somebody passes away and you are given the manager of the estate, you're the trustee of the estate.

It's not for you to decide, "Oh, I want to do this and that with it." It's for you to manage those resources according to the instructions in the trust document or the will. So that's the same sort of thing. So that's a humble perspective. That's a perspective of looking to see what are God's principles, what are His purposes. I really like to unpack the whole consumer versus steward worldview because if I'm a consumer, who's the most important person in the world? It's me, right? Life is all about me, my comfort, my pleasure, my happiness.

If I'm a consumer, I believe that it's money and things that bring happiness. If I'm a consumer, then I live with a competition mindset, I'm on a quest for more. But if I'm a steward of God's resources, then it's not me who's most important. It's God. It's honoring God, it's glorifying God in all that we do. If I'm a steward of God's resources, it's not money and things that bring happiness. It's relationships that bring joy.

If I'm a steward of God's resources, it's not a life of competition I'm living. It's a life of contribution, of using the gifts and talents and resources that I've been entrusted to make a God-glorifying difference in the world. Wow, if you can get a couple coming together in marriage and coming at money from those perspectives together, that's a wonderful place to start.

Dr. Greg Smalley: How would you, so let's say that you're coaching a couple who are engaged? This young couple getting married, how do you begin to teach them how to have that stewardship kind of mindset versus the consumer mindset?

Matt Bell: I would put them into the word. I would have them read the parable of the talents and discuss it and talk about that and try to run that up against maybe some perspectives that they bring into the marriage. I really like both teaching parents how to bring their kids up with biblical perspectives, and I really love teaching young couples about how to get their marriage headed in a good direction.

But those are two very different experiences because young kids have virtually blank slates. It's a little easier to teach them. But in a marriage, husband and wife coming together after how many years, 20 years, maybe 30 years in this day and age, they're not coming to marriage with a blank slate. They've got their upbringing that they dealt with that could have been very different from their spouse's upbringing. They've got different temperaments.

I think temperament is a fascinating sort of thing that really affects so many things in life and certainly including money. They've got certain hopes and dreams. They've got certain experiences. I had this very dramatic experience with debt and so that really affected, even to this day, it affects how I think about money. And so for a husband and wife to come together, I think it's that starting point of saying, in the new book Starting Strong, I talk about these five prayers to really start your marriage with.

It's about we will serve the Lord. Let's forget about all the circumstances right now. We're going to serve the Lord in our marriage. We're going to build our lives together on the foundation of His word, on the solid rock of His word. We're going to be in this together. We're going to look at the parable of the talents and what that means for us, and we are going to manage money according to God's principles for His purposes.

So that's really big picture stuff. We can get into some specifics here because, for example, a lot of couples bring debt into the marriage. We could talk about that or use of a budget. There are a lot of specifics, but that starting point is just really essential to start from that spiritual, biblical perspective.

Erin Smalley: That's so good. I wish we would have had more counsel around finances when we first got married and continuing to learn and grow in that has just been key. As you were talking, you're talking about how God expects us to manage what He gives us because it's His. But in a marriage, this is a shared thing. We're a team, we do this together. Typically, I know one spouse might be more savvy in finances, but how do you encourage that young couple to set themselves up for success and share that responsibility?

Matt Bell: It's okay for one to take the lead because, as you said, one might be more naturally wired up. This again gets to temperament. So if you've got a melancholic temperament, one of the two, that's a really good thing because the melancholic temperament tends to really take to the use of a budget. You've got two sanguines, that might be a little bit more challenging, but it can still be managed because God brought these two people together.

But I think it's essential that one not do everything. They both need to be together in terms of their goals, their objectives. We're going to give this portion as a first priority. We're going to save and invest this portion. We're going to live this kind of, we're making these decisions together so we're in it together and setting the budget. How are we going to design our budget? I'm a big fan of using what I prefer to call a cashflow plan.

But then it's okay for one to take the lead in keeping the budget up to date and stuff. But then there should be regular conversations. People talk about going on a money date, and I like that idea. I like getting away from home, getting away from all the distractions of home to be able to talk on a regular basis, whether it's monthly or quarterly about how are we doing? In a practical sense, are we overspending in a certain category? Do we need to adjust the budget there?

Then talk about some of the visions and goals that you have for your marriage that God's putting on your hearts. Are we moving together toward those things? So again, I think it's okay for one person to take the lead, but both need to be involved. That's where having online access, like the budget tool that we use in our household, it's an online budget, so we both have access to it anytime, anyplace. And then, of course, investment accounts or bank accounts, again, there's nothing hidden, there are no secrets. Keeping secrets financially or otherwise is just really dangerous for a marriage. So full financial disclosure before marriage, ongoing financial transparency after marriage would be some goals to strive for.

Erin Smalley: So would you say the spouse that isn't actually carrying it out, maybe the one that isn't as savvy or gifted in their capabilities with a spreadsheet, what is their role then? What would you encourage? Because I often find as I work with couples that one is doing it all, the other one is like, well, I try to listen, but I kind of check out when we're talking about it. What advice do you have for the one that's not carrying the load?

Matt Bell: We don't need to turn everybody into an accountant. I think it was Tim LaHaye that said, "I've never met a sanguine accountant," and that's probably some truth to that. But I think each person does need to be involved and it might not be the one particular spouse's love, they don't love the numbers, they don't love being that involved, but I think it actually is an act of love on both people's purpose, certainly on the part of the person that is taking more control to make sure that the other spouse is knowledgeable.

So in our marriage, my marriage with Jude, we've been married for 27 years now. She would willingly say that I'm taking the lead on some of these things, but she's very much involved. We set the direction together and she has access to anything that she wants to see at any time. So there's that transparency there. So I think the spouse who may not naturally take to it still needs to be for one thing, knowledgeable.

So that's where the spouse that's more involved can proactively encourage these regular date nights, this regular communication about, hey, I just want you to know here's where we're at, here's some of the goals and how we're doing against those goals. That would be a loving thing to do. But then the spouse that's not very involved also needs to be accountable for hitting the numbers in the budget. So I love the idea of each spouse, I like one budget, but I like each spouse having some money within the budget that's kind of theirs.

For us, it's clothing budgets. I can spend what I, as long as it's within that number, I can spend freely and so can she. Some couples do it with hobbies or lunches with friends. So if there is that setup, and I recommend that there is, then even the spouse that isn't very involved still needs to be accountable to those numbers.

Dr. Greg Smalley: When only one spouse does all that, what's the impact then on the relationship? So if I'm the only one doing that, if Erin isn't involved, how do you typically see that impacting us?

Matt Bell: It can be a little bit dangerous. I wouldn't want to think poorly of the one spouse that's more involved, but there can be a little bit of danger there and a lack of accountability. I think the accountability is just a healthy thing in life in general and certainly financially. So for the spouse that's not that involved to be able to be looking every now and then and seeing what's going on and being in agreement about it would be a good, healthy just structural practice within the marriage.

I think also a danger is that if something happens to the spouse that is more in control, that could leave the spouse who's not very involved really floundering and wondering how to move forward and very confused about even what accounts we have and where are our finances and how strong are we. I think that's just a dangerous position to put a spouse in.

Dr. Greg Smalley: That's totally fair because I think with Erin and me, I take the lead on that. In there are times that you're more involved, there's times that you're not. I know a few times this has happened is that Erin maybe has seen a credit card statement or something has made her go, wait, what's this? And then it's because she hasn't been involved, then I've got to try to explain it and then it's then you're like, well, I don't know if that's even making sense. It's created some challenges for us. Again, this happens every once in a while. So it's not like that happens all the time, but yeah, that's how I've watched it kind of play out.

Erin Smalley: Because division. In something else, I'm so curious about what your thoughts are on shared accounts versus individual separate accounts? Because what I've seen is often for especially a female who has had to work really, really hard to get where she's at and of course with couples getting married later, she may have worked really, really hard to get where she's at and then to marry, it's difficult then to integrate these accounts. So I've seen it and I'm always like, I just don't know how it works well. I'm sure there are people that do that well, but I'd love your opinion on it.

Matt Bell: I just love God's vision for marriage, which is oneness. As counter-cultural as it has become, I really just continue to believe in the timeless truths, of course, of God's word and that vision for oneness. And so what I like to say is that if one spouse was wealthy before the two got married, after marriage, they're both wealthy. If one spouse had a bunch of debt before they got married, after they got married, they both have a lot of debt.

And so, and I definitely encourage joint accounts wherever possible. There's certain accounts you can't make joint, like an individual retirement account is an individual retirement account. You can't legally make that a joint account. But a checking account, a savings account, you can make those joint accounts and that just fosters transparency and teamwork. There was a fascinating study out of Indiana University where they found, here's this secular university that found that couples who have shared accounts, they tend to have happier marriages.

The marriages tend to be stronger. And the researcher was kind of speculating as to why that would be. And she was saying that she thought it's because of this transparency aspect, because of this teamwork aspect, it just brought trust into all aspects of their marriage and made their marriage stronger.

Erin Smalley: I'm going to hold onto that piece of research because often couples will come in and they have separate accounts, but they really don't know the impact of it. And so to have that research, that's great to know that the secular research is showing that.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Absolutely. When would you then encourage a couple to have separate accounts? So you're right, the vision, the aspiration, the healthiest is to have that accountability to share those accounts. Do you find though that maybe there's been a lot of secrecy or there's been opening up credit cards under my spouse's name, she didn't know it? When would you encourage a couple to have some boundaries like that, if ever?

Matt Bell: If you're worried about sharing your accounts or sharing your information, I might press the pause button on the marriage a little bit longer. If you're in that engaged state and you're wondering about that or hesitant about that, I would work that through and to see what's behind that because sometimes it may not be a lack of trust of the other, sometimes it might be something from the past where somebody else proved themselves not trustworthy. Maybe they saw their parents acting that way toward each other. And so there's some very natural, understandable fear there.

But I would work through that before marriage. Because once you get married, I think right from the beginning, that's the time to start combining accounts that you can. That's the time to create these, like I say, structural sort of setup in your marriage that just tend to foster oneness and open communication about your finances.

Erin Smalley: What about social media? So not that I am guilty of this at all, but social media, I don't know how they know, but they just, social media will just pummel you with that exact thing that you think you need. Algorithms are powerful. How do you see this impacting then the emotional buys, the emotionally driven purchases?

Matt Bell: The FOMO. It's a dominant influence in our culture these days. And to start with a big picture, I know that you've talked with Gary Thomas before and he talks about making your marriage a fortress, which I love that. And I think financially there are ways you can make your marriage a fortress. And one of those ways is again this, like there's certain structures that just call a couple toward each other.

One of those structures is it's so simple, but it's about how you prioritize the use of money. And so I will get to the specifics about social media thing. But if you set up your finances where typically what happens in our consumer culture is that spending comes first and then debt, because debt always comes along for the ride if spending's first, and then there might be some save, some might be invested, some might be given, but typically there isn't a lot left over.

So biblically, if you will give first and then save and then invest and then decide how much you can afford to spend on this, that or the other thing and make sure that debt you don't become enslaved to creditors, and we can talk more specifically about debt if you'd like to, but that structure's a great starting point. So then social media's coming at you and they're telling you you need this and you need that.

Well, you can look within the structure of the cashflow plan that you and your spouse have created together and say, "I've got X amount of money to spend on clothing." That's a helpful constraint. I think the most maladjusted people, and you guys can check me on this, but they tend to be those that had no parameters. They had no limits. But limits are really helpful, parameters are helpful, boundaries are helpful.

And so here's how much I can spend on clothing. So if I want to spend it all on what that influencer told me I need to buy this month, as long as it's within that amount, great. Have at it. Because I'm sure they bought it too. Exactly. And so I think it's just helpful to know where you can play, know where the fence is in the playground. I can play this far in clothing, I can play this far in entertainment, I can play this far in vacations because I've set up this cashflow plan that enables me to live generously, to save and invest wisely, to avoid the bondage of debt.

And now I've got this much to play with. And so again, I remember one time early in our marriage, we learned kind of the hard way that you can't just have one clothing budget because then you're inhibited, you're calling each other, "Can I buy this, can I spend that?" So we created separate clothing budgets. They're part of the same unified plan, but we were free, we had some freedom to manage it that way. And I remember one month I spent my entire clothing budget on a single sweater. And Jude was shocked. She thought that was just wrong somehow. But it was within the limit though. And so we talked about it and realized, okay, that's totally fine. You want to spend it all on one item, have at it. But as long as you're managing to that number, it's okay.

Dr. Greg Smalley: I just want you to show us a picture of you in that sweater. Was it worth it? So we could all vote. Was it really worth it? I love it. That's really funny. You're giving what I so appreciate is you're really talking about the values underneath these practical things. And when we approach finances as a team, when we're really trying to be good stewards versus consumers, when we're working together so that no one person is doing all the work. All that just that sort of mindset, those foundations, that makes such a big difference.

If you don't mind, because we really want to get into the practical stuff and we appreciate the foundation you've laid. If you're willing, we'd love to have you come back again next week and let's really dig in to how do we build budgets? What are those practical things that you've seen really make a difference in a marriage? So if you're okay, then we'll do that.

Matt Bell: I would love that.

Dr. Greg Smalley: All right, my pleasure. Erin, I love that Matt kept taking us back to the importance of really a God-centered view of money and how important that is to always keep God in mind as we're talking about money, thinking about money, managing money. He's right. Just really going back to what does the Bible say? What is God leading us to do?

Erin Smalley: Well, and especially he said that after he went into debt that someone led him to Christ and he began looking at the principles in the Bible about money and that carried him forward as far as how he engages with money because it really does. It changes our view of money when we look at it as God's money or God's resources.

Dr. Greg Smalley: I like the challenge to think back to growing up and what did we learn about money? Because he kept saying Matt over and over and over again was saying how much that impacts just how we manage money now or how we spend money, all of it. So when you think about your childhood as you were growing up, what are some of the things you think you learned about money?

Erin Smalley: I would say that because my dad owned hair salons, there were months that were really, really good and months that were really, really tight. And my parents never talked about money. They didn't put that on us, but you could tell that we weren't going out, we were eating certain foods at home when money was really, really tight.

And I will say that my dad was extremely generous always and sometimes that was good and sometimes that put them in financial difficulties, but he was always super generous with my brother and I. And so I think in some ways that may have put that kind of that feast or famine mentality into how I think about money.

Dr. Greg Smalley: How do you see that impacted our marriage or just you as a wife?

Erin Smalley: I think that there's well, and we know this to be true that money often represents safety for especially for women and I would say it instilled some fear in me around finances and wanting to control and to make sure that there's not those moments of famine. Tell me about what you grew up with.

Dr. Greg Smalley: For many years, my dad was a pastor, so there was a pastor's salary that went along with that that probably wasn't great. And so kind of like what you were saying, I think money was always very, very tight. And so there just was an awareness of not going out and spend, we got to be careful, I need to save. So we just didn't have a lot.

I don't remember that like, oh, we don't have anything. It seemed like we had plenty, but now looking back, I can see where there just there wasn't a lot. And tell you those were those were great times. The activities that my parents would have us do didn't cost a lot or maybe anything at all and yet they were a blast and we enjoy that. We camped a lot and that was because we just didn't have much money to go on trips or anything like that.

But I mean, those are fond memories. But I think the way it's impacted our marriage is then then I worry about that. Are we making enough? And what are we trying to save for and are we doing a good job? How can we do things that don't cost a lot of money? Those are some of the things that I certainly I think about or even worry about.

And that's why I so appreciate Matt Bell and just him bringing up how to be good stewards of our resources to be aware of how has our upbringing impacted our marriage and to really approach this as a team. Let's figure this out together.

Erin Smalley: And he talked about as a consumer you are the center, that you are the most important person in the mix versus stewardship is God is the most important and the focus is on Him and His resources. So I appreciated that differentiation because that really influences then what we do with money.

Dr. Greg Smalley: He did such a great job unpacking this in his book Starting Strong: Discovering the Good That Money Can Do in Your Marriage and we'd love to put that into your hands for a gift of any amount.

Erin Smalley: Matt has included a monthly cashflow plan in his book to help you see exactly where your money is going. If this sounds like something you and your spouse could get behind, click on our show notes below to order your copy of his incredible book.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Erin, did you go to many amusement parks or carnivals when you were young?

Erin Smalley: Oh, I sure did. I loved them. I have so many good memories. We went to the Arizona State Fair every year. It was so much fun, but my most favorite carnival memory was my mom put together a carnival out of cardboard boxes in our front yard.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Oh, wow. Like for the neighborhood or just for you guys?

Erin Smalley: Yes, it was a fundraiser for I'm not sure what cause it was for, but it was amazing. My mom was an incredibly talented woman and she used cardboard boxes for each of the booths and we had like one of those fishing booths. We had throw the ball and knock things over. I mean, just all the games. It was absolutely, oh, pull the sucker out and if there's a red dot on the sucker then you get a prize. I mean, we had it all. It was so cool. I felt like the coolest kid in the neighborhood. I was the yes, my brother and I were the coolest kids. You guys were spoiled. Well, my mom was an art student at that point and there was just something magical about the whole experience. Always, always just magical. The rides, the games, the music, the food felt like pure fun and freedom as a kid. And honestly, I think that's part of why this kind of date night idea matters so much.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Because here in a moment, we're going to encourage you to do what Erin's mother did to create a mini carnival date night at your home. But this is more than just about the games and the snacks and the suckers with the red dots. It's really about reconnecting with that kind of that playful carefree part of each other that as adults with all of our responsibility, I mean, that's the stuff that gets buried over time.

Erin Smalley: Exactly. Most couples spend their days managing responsibilities, work, bills, parenting, schedules, stress, the mental load, all of it. We interact through our functional selves. But when you start laughing over a silly game or getting ridiculously competitive trying to land a ping pong ball in a coffee mug, your guard drops.

Dr. Greg Smalley: And then you really start to see a different side of your spouse again. The lighter side, the fun side, like doing the fishing game that you were talking about that your mom would create for you guys. And sometimes then you get to see kind of that little kid still inside them.

Erin Smalley: Which honestly builds intimacy and connection. When you ask your spouse about their favorite amusement park memory, you're learning something about what brought them joy and wonder growing up.

Dr. Greg Smalley: And this is why we're encouraging you to build a little mini carnival. It's to bring out that playful side, that kid side of you, that playful having fun. That's what we're really wanting you guys to do. So here's the idea. Bring some of that youthful carnival energy, just think about Erin's mom building what she did for her two kids and you're going to bring that into your home for a date night. Set up some simple games like your mom did, the ring toss or maybe line up some coffee mugs.

Erin Smalley: Or my favorite the cakewalk. Remember that? The music would play and then you stop and whatever you stop on, that's the cake you get.

Dr. Greg Smalley: You get little cupcakes or little cookies. Yeah, any of that. So whether it's a coffee mug and see who can bounce a ping pong ball into the cup, any of those will work perfect.

Erin Smalley: If you have a gaming console, you can even play a multiplayer game together. We could compete. Yeah, you love that. But or we could play it together. We could be teammates or we could be adversaries. I think we're going for teammates. And don't forget the carnival food, the popcorn, the hot dogs, the lemonade, nachos, cotton candy, the pretzels, all of it.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Get it all and have fun with it. But you also need prizes. So we would say head to the dollar store and just kind of walk around, just grab some fun little trinkets, keychains, candy, stuffed animals. I mean, whatever you guys just choose some things. I mean, do this. Because again the point is just not to have a fun date night. We're trying to draw out what often we don't get to see a lot and that's that little kid, that kid side of you, that playful having fun. That's what we're really wanting you guys to do. So Erin, what carnival game would you absolutely dominate?

Erin Smalley: Obviously the strongman hammer game, where you hit the thing with the big hammer you ring the bell. I don't know if our kids would agree with that. Well, I mean as someone so muscular, obviously I would dominate with that. Now, I would probably say that I would either dominate the basketball pop a shot game. Of course, I always brag about your outside shot, so maybe you actually would win that. I'm but I would do well anything involving a skill, skee-ball or balloon dart throw. That would be the one because I loved doing that and I'm convinced that I could win you like the biggest ginormous stuffed bear.

Erin Smalley: I want to see that. But honestly, I mean that's the whole point. So we just need to have these moments where we can laugh together again because the activity is really just the vehicle. The real goal is curiosity, connection, and creating space to experience joy together.

Dr. Greg Smalley: So here's what we want to know from you guys. What were some of your favorite amusement park or carnival memories growing up? So you can let us know by leaving a comment in the show notes below. Welcome one and all to this week's Q&A session. This is the part of the show where Erin and I get to answer some of your burning marriage questions.

Erin Smalley: Today's question comes from an anonymous listener. Greg and Erin, I have a question for you. My husband and we have been married for decades, but I haven't figured out how to motivate him to read his Bible daily. Please, I'm open to suggestions. He doesn't have a lot of Christian guy friends nor has he ever had a mentor.

Dr. Greg Smalley: I love this question. Thank you for sending this one in. It's great. I know all of us every marriage is probably going to go through this to where how do we motivate each other to do something? In this case, how does she help motivate him to read the Bible? Erin and I always love to start with with this idea first and foremost, kind of do some self-reflection. What's really going on for her the fact that he's not reading his Bible? I mean, it's bothering her.

Erin Smalley: Yeah, because do you have a fear? In essence, it's looking at so if he doesn't read his Bible, what does that mean for you? What is the fear that comes up? The fear that he's not leading our family, that he's not going to protect us, that he's not going to grow and mature into this godly man. What is the fear? What does that mean for you? Because tapping into that is super important. Is it loneliness and you feel you don't feel that spiritual connection? Is it disappointment? Or is it a comparison to what your friends' husbands are doing?

Dr. Greg Smalley: Yeah, and you guys, I mean, you hear us talk about this a lot, but it really is true when I bring up something that I'm frustrated about, something that's bothering me, it's so important to first try to figure out why. Why is this bothering me? Why am I bringing this up? When I put a name to what's really going on underneath it, maybe I've been avoiding or oblivious to, it just it calms you down. I mean, that's first and foremost why that's so important to get that perspective. That's being honest going, okay, here's why this bothers me. This is what's going on for me.

Erin Smalley: And the second thing I would bring attention to is notice the language that she used as far as I haven't figured out how to motivate him. So in essence, somehow this has become her job to motivate him, her responsibility to carry this. And that is a burden that I don't think is really hers, but it actually what we end up doing is we carry the burden so they don't have to. And that then gets him off the hook, it may actually be why he's being passive around it because she's carrying it as well as she's trying to motivate him. What does he have to do?

Dr. Greg Smalley: Yeah, we call that a misplaced responsibility, that somehow it's my responsibility to motivate him to do this. And please hear us. We're not saying that the fact that he's not doing that isn't causing a lot of pain. I mean, it is. It's hurting you, you feel like it's damaging the relationship. So I mean, that's valid.

Erin Smalley: And I would encourage her to share that. How is this impacting you first and foremost? How do you feel? Do you feel alone? Do you feel disappointed? What is it that you're feeling? And then you can also make a request and share feedback that I would love to see you doing this, but I can't control you.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Yeah, because at the end of the day, I mean, his spiritual life is it is in fairness between him and God. Your role would be to invite that experience between the two of you, not to try to manage or figure out how to motivate him. We get it. This is hard because it sounds like in the depth of your heart that desire to be connected spiritually together, I mean, that's a big deal and we're not minimizing or marginalizing that. There's just probably just give up that responsibility.

Erin Smalley: Yes. Thank you so much for your question. We really appreciate you reaching out to us. We'll be sending you a copy of our book Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Yeah, and if you have any marital questions, whatever it is, click on the show notes. You can either leave us a written question, you can even leave that as a voice message. Just like today's Q&A, you don't have to include your name if you prefer to stay anonymous. All marriage questions are welcome. So bring them on. We can't wait to hear yours.

Thank you for joining us on Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage.

Erin Smalley: Yes, thank you for following the show and sharing it with your friends and family. We want you to have a seat at the table every week as we help equip you and your spouse to have a lifelong satisfying marriage.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Yeah, we want to see you guys growing together spiritually as individuals and together as a couple.

Erin Smalley: So you both can turn right around and invest in other couples to help them build thriving marriages.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Well, thanks for listening. We'll talk to you again next Monday about this crazy little thing called marriage.

Guest (Male): Being a dad is a high calling, so as a couple, listen together to a new seasonal podcast from Focus on the Family, Legacy of Courage. It shares real stories from dads who have been there, reminders about the power of showing up consistently, the importance of modeling a heart for God, and encouragement to enjoy those funny moments we all experience. Listen together to Legacy of Courage at celebratingfathers.com.