Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage

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I'm so excited to help you navigate the unique challenges that pastors face in their ministry journey, both personally and professionally. So, I invite you to listen and subscribe to Pastor to Pastor wherever you get your podcasts.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Welcome to Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage. I'm Dr. Greg Smalley.

Erin Smalley: And I'm Erin Smalley. Today, we're discussing a topic that's received a lot of attention online, and it's concerning. Especially to me, it's very concerning. I know it is to you, too, Greg, and it's the manosphere, which there's also a portion of it called the Christian manosphere.

If you haven't heard of it, you're not alone. A lot of good husbands haven't heard about it either. That's exactly why we wanted to talk about it, just to educate people on what it is and making sure that you're not sliding into any of it because we want to ground it in Scripture. What is the truth?

Many men have encountered manosphere content just while searching for advice about relationships, marriage, masculinity, or even purpose. What started as content that was meant to encourage positive changes or positive behavior, like discipline or self-improvement, quickly devolved into unhealthy ideas about husbands, wives, and marriage, including control, resentment, and the belief that husbands and wives are adversaries rather than partners.

Dr. Greg Smalley: That's obviously why this conversation matters so much and why we want to have this conversation. As Christians, we want to evaluate every message through the lens of God's word. The Bible presents a very different picture, thank the Lord, of marriage than what we often see online.

Instead of these power struggles that end up happening, really God calls us to mutual honor. Instead of viewing one another with suspicion, He calls us to love sacrificially. And instead of demanding what he believes he's owed, God calls a husband to earn it through patience, tenderness, and sacrifice, certainly not entitlement.

Erin Smalley: We know this to be true, that showing respect to our spouse is often found in those little moments—listening closely, speaking kindly, letting our spouse know that they're appreciated. Those simple acts of love can help our spouses to feel valued, seen, and deeply cared for, which is the deepest longing of the human heart.

Speaking of listening closely, Greg has spent months and months and hours and hours digging into the Christian manosphere, reading online content, studying Scripture, and tracing how good men end up believing some pretty troubling and terrible things. So today, I'm turning the tables and I'm interviewing you, Greg.

Coming up, Greg and I are going to walk through six of the biggest lies that the manosphere presents and really is infiltrating men's minds and hearts with. We're going to do three today and three in our next episode. More importantly, we're going to share what does the Bible actually say in response to each one of these lies. So stick around because we're going to go deep into the manosphere right after this.

Before we get into the six lies, I think people need to really hear that this isn't some fringe, obviously crazy internet thing. This is real. It's using Christian language like headship, leadership, and covenant, which can be confusing. So Greg, what is the manosphere and how did it get so good at sounding biblical?

Dr. Greg Smalley: There's not a manosphere movement. It's really just a collection of online networks and forums and influencers, podcasters. What you're seeing collectively, the big message is what they would call the red pill. If you've ever seen the movie The Matrix, this is what wakes everybody up to the reality of where they're living, not in this fantasy world.

The red pill philosophy around the manosphere is that really society has emasculated men, women can't be trusted, and true masculinity means dominance and control. In a very broad sense, that's what's being preached. The Christian version is taking those similar kinds of ideology and really taking things like headship and leadership and covenant and redefining them.

Leadership then becomes control, and submission becomes fear. But they're using Bible verses, so when someone's hearing all that, they're thinking, "Oh, this must be the way it is." It sounds reasonable, but it's concerning.

No, and that's really the lies that we want to walk through is how are these Bible verses, these words that you find within Scripture, being twisted and manipulated to really promote a male dominance and a female submission. I've spent months and I couldn't even tell you how many hours in there. There is a reality of I feel like I've been in this dark hole, this pit, just learning all this stuff. That's why I'm excited about today's show because I want to shed some light. That dark pit needs light, and that's God, that's His word.

Erin Smalley: It sounds amazing to be able to hear the truth and I'm sure for you, too, to be in some ways released from spending hours and hours. I didn't realize you were actually going on forums and reading the darkness. That's good for me to know. Last night as we were prepping for today, you were like, "Has this impacted you at all? You're not following any of this."

Again, that's what I get excited about for today's show, to really talk about what I've learned and more importantly what God says and what His word reveals about what's being shared across the internet to men. Again, it sounds close enough because you're getting the Bible verses sprinkled in there, and so it can really lead a husband to a very dangerous place within his relationship.

Tell me, Greg, if this is so off, if the manosphere is so obviously off, once you can see it clearly, how does a good man, a Christian man, get sucked into this and end up believing this ideology that is not accurate? Because I know nobody just wakes up one day and decides to become controlling. Tell us how does a Christian good man get there?

Dr. Greg Smalley: You think of that analogy that if you're going to boil a frog, you don't throw him into a pot of boiling water. You actually put him in cold water and then turn it up degree by degree, and then he never registers the change that is ultimately going to not only harm him but ultimately to his demise. That's really what's going on.

I think what the manosphere has picked up on is that our men, our young men especially, are hurting. They're in a lot of pain. There's a lot of loneliness. There's confusion about what it means to be a man. Masculinity often in our culture is considered toxic. There is confusion on "Where am I going? Who am I? What is my identity? What is my purpose?"

When you take that where a lot of guys are really struggling with that and begin to slowly feed them content that always begins with just self-help and how to be a better husband, a better father, a better man, make more money—those legitimate things—and then go by degree and start to feed this content that becomes more extreme over time.

The problem is we have algorithms now that are very wise and they notice. It's seen things that a guy isn't able to see twelve steps down the road, which is the material they're going to be fed. At the end of that, you've just been indoctrinated into this information, especially understanding, "I never knew that about that Bible verse," or "That kind of makes sense."

All of a sudden one day you're really operating within a playbook that the manosphere has put together that's absolutely devastating to a wife, kills your marriage. For me, it's like that's not even the guy that I would want to be. What's appealing about that? Nothing. I don't want to be a guy that has to rely on manipulating, controlling, dominating you to get what I want. That's not the guy that I want to stare at in the mirror. But degree by degree, that slow boil is really how that happens.

Erin Smalley: And that makes sense, the slow boil, because it sounds plausible. It sounds like a pathway, a pathway forward. Scripture is borrowed at just the right time, so it sounds good, which sounds just like the enemy because the enemy does become such an impostor and utilizes what God has made that is good and thwarts it just a little bit, twists it just a little bit, and that's where he gets his foothold.

Let's go straight to the source, starting with the very first verse that the manosphere leans on to make the case.

Dr. Greg Smalley: This is really lie number one. This is how I'd frame it: Genesis 3 commands husbands to rule. That's the manosphere claim. They might say it like this: Genesis 3:16 establishes God's design for marriage; husbands are meant to rule over their wives and wives are meant to submit to that authority.

Genesis 3:16 is right after Adam and Eve sinned. This is where they were hiding; God confronts them. Basically, God is saying as a result of your choice to sin, here is what's going to happen to both of you individually. But now he's also talking about their marital relationship. It says, "And you will desire to control your husband, but he will rule over you."

The manosphere is taking that verse to say well, that's God's design for marriage, that the man should rule over the woman. The lie there is that that is 100% not a command. God isn't saying, "This is what I want now marriage to look like." He is saying, "As a result of what you guys did, this is going to be the new reality," and it's broken His heart.

This is not the Eden marriage where there was partnership and unity and that oneness and their individual roles working together to go out and conquer the world. That was God's design for marriage. In pre-fall Eden where that partnership and shared purpose, there was no rivalry there; there were no power struggles.

But now God is saying this is what's going to be true. I would say this is the moment that power struggles in a marriage became a reality. Look at the verse: she's going to try to control you and he is going to react by trying to rule over you. You see that every day in your counseling office. That's why couples are there; they're in this power struggle. Who's going to be in control? We're going to get into this adversarial relationship. That was you and me our first several years of marriage. We were locked into that tug-of-war.

Erin Smalley: And what we often don't talk about is what's going on under that are these tender spots that we both brought into the marriage that are being triggered, which are actually lies. Ironically, Satan is called the father of lies, so he's playing on that. That is what you're saying is happening within these marriages that the manosphere is encouraging the man to rule over his wife.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Not only just let me even play with the wording there because this is how insidious it gets. The manosphere is not just encouraging guys. It's saying, "This is God's design for your marriage. If you don't do this, you're operating outside of how He's built it to work." That's the confusion because you take a verse like that on its own and say, "Well see? God said it, so that's the design." That's not at all what God's doing.

Erin Smalley: And I am guessing because this is one of those verses that sometimes couples don't dig into what it really means, and I am guessing that the manosphere is built on many of those verses that we haven't taken time within the church to really know what does this really mean and how does this practically apply to a godly Christian marriage.

Dr. Greg Smalley: I would argue that everything the manosphere is teaching is rooted in this Genesis 3:16 power struggle. It all started then. This has been going on for thousands of years. You think about in the Apostle Paul's day and age how men ruled, literally ruled, over their wives. Women had virtually no rights.

Look at our culture now; look at Afghanistan. Look around the world—you see the same thing, that men are dominating and ruling over. It all came from here. The encouragement, the hope, is that I would argue that the Apostle Paul then in Ephesians 5, the marriage passage Ephesians 5 verse 21 all the way through 33, this is really where Paul's laying out his vision, his encouragement, and often his command for the husband and the wife.

I would argue that Paul is actually trying to undo the Genesis 3:16 curse on marriage. He's saying, "Hey, how about for both of you? Let me talk to the husband, let me talk to the wife. Husbands, if you love your wife sacrificially like God did His bride the church, that's your part of breaking this out." Instead of ruling over, what if you actually love her sacrificially?

And he's saying to the wife, "Instead of being told to submit, instead of being made to submit, what if you choose as an act of worship to God? What if you choose to submit to his leadership? If both of you do that, that's how you guys can break the curse and go back to that original design, the design that God ultimately wanted for us."

That's the hope. We're going to go there and we're really going to dig into Ephesians 5 and all those verses, talking about Greek and all that, just to really talk about Paul's vision of how we can break out of this curse.

Erin Smalley: So if I'm hearing you, you're saying that the curse in the manosphere becomes a blueprint for how marriage should look. But the gospel doesn't just correct that; it calls both individuals out of the power struggle entirely.

Dr. Greg Smalley: No more tug-of-war.

Erin Smalley: Husbands surrender power, wives surrender control, and together they take back the oneness Christ actually died to give us.

Dr. Greg Smalley: That's exactly what I'm saying.

Erin Smalley: Okay, so Greg, there's another word that the manosphere amplifies, and that's headship. If it doesn't mean rule over her, what does headship actually mean? Because that's exactly where lie number two comes in.

Dr. Greg Smalley: I would say there that lie number two, the manosphere claim, would sound something like this: Headship means authority; the husband leads, the wife obeys. Any challenge to male authority is a rejection of God's design.

Same words, right words. Now you're talking theology. Those are words that I recognize. I didn't know headship means divine authority. So let's go there.

Erin Smalley: Please tell me this is not accurate. Tell me this is not accurate as far as what you now believe after doing all this research.

Dr. Greg Smalley: I would say not at all. But here's what you and I are trying to do. Don't just take our word for it; let's go to the Scripture. Through everything that we're going to say, the litmus test is: is that an accurate portrayal and description of God's word, the verse? This is not theology à la Greg or Erin. Let's go to the Scripture.

Ephesians 5:23 says, "For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body of which he is the savior." Talking about Christ. So headship is right there in Ephesians 5:23. But here's the problem. When you begin to look at the Greek meaning of the word "head"—and by the way, I'm never going to try to pronounce the right word, so you look it up; I always mess it up—when Paul was talking about the word for head, it simply means like the head of a body. It's just what you think it is.

But the meaning there is heavily debated between the theologians. Some believe that "head," the way Paul is using it, is meaning source. Like Eve was taken from Adam's rib; therefore, Adam is the source of Eve. Others define it as authority. Regardless of what you believe, the word in study, you'll see the debate.

But here's what I never noticed—this was huge for me—is that Paul immediately uses that word and then goes on to explain what he means by that. He said the word "headship," he said "head," and what he actually means by it he goes on to explain in verses 25 through 29. He describes leadership meaning self-giving, sacrificial love that nourishes and cherishes and helps his wife to flourish.

We can give the manosphere, let's say, okay, it means authority. But Paul then goes on to define it, and that's what matters here. Paul is the one that authored that. So what did he really mean by it? That's what I love—is that he's gone on to say it's all about sacrificial love. As Christ laid down His life for His bride, the church, so we as a husband, I should do the same thing.

In that whole passage Ephesians 5:21 through 33, 70% of the words are directed to the husband. Because Paul is basically saying, "This is such a big deal." That was so radical in his day and age. Husbands didn't need to be told to rule over their wives. That's exactly what was going on. Women were already submitting; they were already being ruled over.

What's radical about that is for the first time Paul's saying, "Okay, no. That's not God's design. It's not what He wanted for your role as a husband. He wants you to lead, but how you lead is to do what Christ modeled." And that's to lay down your life, to cherish her, to nourish her, to help her flourish to become the best version of who God created her to be. That's the difference. The husband is the leader all day long. But the key is then to define what Paul actually meant and what Jesus then modeled for us because that's really then what it looks like lived out.

Erin Smalley: So you're saying that headship is not like a king sitting on a throne. Instead, it's about Jesus dying on the cross and sacrificing His life for us. Thus, a husband's leadership isn't measured through how much power he holds, but by how willingly he lays down his life so his wife can flourish. That's so different than how often this verse is interpreted and what I've even heard.

So many of these lies I hear in my office, and I always say well-meaning individuals have communicated this, but is that really what it means? I love that you've delved into this to really figure out what does this mean, what does it look like.

But Greg, this is where I think the manosphere gets really, really dangerous because once a man believes headship means he's in charge, it's a short step to the next lie: that his wife actually owes him her submission and it's his job to enforce it or to make her submit. Even saying this is hard for me. Is that really what Scripture teaches?

Dr. Greg Smalley: Not at all. Again, I would frame the manosphere claim by this: as the head of his wife, a husband has the God-given right to demand her submission. Her obedience is his to enforce, and maintaining authority and dominance is the key to earning her respect.

Again, we're using terms that are right there in the Scripture; those are undeniable. I 100% believe that He has given husbands and wives very clear roles. They're right there. But let's understand what they really mean. That key verse then is Ephesians 5:22, which says that "wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord."

It's easy to twist that. It's easy then for the manosphere playbook to say it's right there. So your job then is to get your wife to then submit. But Paul is certainly giving a real command there, but it's directed to the wife. This is where I think husbands totally miss it. He's not talking to us as husbands; he's talking to you as a wife. And it's not my job to figure that out for you. That's your job; that's between you and the Lord.

Erin Smalley: And even the fact that you're talking about the S-word, submission, is just out there because so often we don't talk about it. Therefore, we don't understand what it means. But it's in Scripture.

Dr. Greg Smalley: It is. And nowhere in that Scripture that you're talking about is a husband commanded to make his wife submit, nor does it ever give him permission to demand obedience. This is something that is fully between you and the Lord in the same way it's not your job, Erin, to come to me and say, "I don't agree with your leadership. I don't think you're leading very well. Your spiritual leadership is a little confusing to me."

We need to be able to talk about issues within our relationship, but that's not your job to get me to lead in the way that you want me to, nor is it my job to get you to submit in the way that I think you should.

Erin Smalley: It's looking at marriage and knowing that we don't do this marriage thing in isolation, that we both have individual roles, but we are called to submit to one another as well as give feedback and grow as a result of the other person's perspective. To hear each other, to listen to each other.

Interestingly enough, my dissertation results came back and one of the top five things that is predictive of marital health in a marriage is listening—communication, listening to each other. Respect was on there, honoring love. But do you know what it said? Respecting each other.

So it's not just one or the other; it's respecting each other. I love when research—and I was going to say secular research, but really this is Christian research—is validated and clinically statistically sound. Respecting each other, listening to each other, loving each other—all these things are there and it aligns with Scripture. But often that's not what is presented.

Dr. Greg Smalley: If you want to get all nerdy and Greek out for a second, let's Greek out together. When it says "wives, submit yourself," our modern English translators put the word "submit" there. But in the original Greek, it says "wives unto your husbands." There is no word "submit" there. It's actually borrowing the word "submit" from verse 21 where it says "submit unto one another."

Paul is using this idea of submitting unto one another and then talking about how does that apply then to a wife and how does that apply then to a husband. How does she live it out? How does he live it out? But one of the things I want to talk about when we talk about submission is notice it says "submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord."

There's another verse that says "as fitting," talking about submission as fitting to the Lord. What I love is that the Apostle Paul here is saying to a wife through his use of the Greek and the grammar to submit yourself, that's a voluntary posture. That's something that she does willingly, that she chooses to do, but always as an act of worship to God. Your submission is not about me.

Then what I like is that Paul goes on to then frame that around protection. And there's boundaries that submission isn't open-ended—"as fitting to the Lord." What that's really saying is that your submission ends anytime that there's sin, anytime that it becomes abusive, any of that. That's not what he's saying. He's saying that this has to fit into what God would be saying, what He wants and what He's laying out.

There's clear boundaries around this idea of submission. That's why I always say, let me say it again because I want to be crystal clear: "as fitting to the Lord," "as to the Lord"—both of those phrases mean a wife's submission never requires her to participate in sin, abuse, or anything contrary to Christ.

Erin Smalley: And what I hear you saying is in Scripture, women and wives are called to submission. But you're saying that is a heart stance that is between her and the Lord and is never a husband's right to demand submission. Ever. It's not up to me. It's my willingness and my heart stance between me and the Lord.

And how that submission—because we often hear, well what does that then look like—and that's where Paul goes on to define it around respect. That's a great conversation between you and I to talk about for both of us what does respect look like and how do I respect you, how do you respect me. We can have that conversation. It is never okay for a woman to be mistreated, abused, minimized, coerced, dominated over. That's not God's heart and that's not okay.

That's why here at Focus on the Family, you give us a call if that's going on—800-A-FAMILY. Please let one of our counselors walk you through. We've got some incredible, good, helpful content on if you're experiencing abuse within your marriage. We want to help.

And the other thing I want to say is we're not villainizing men either. There are well-meaning men and not all men have done this. But there are well-meaning men who've interpreted these verses. So many of these verses even theologians can't decide what the actual meaning is or the application. But when there's been mistreatment of women, there's a misapplication there because that's not Jesus's heart. He valued women. He made strong women.

But we need strong men too. We each have different roles. Husbands are called to leadership, wives are called to submission, but we're called to mutual respect. Playing that out and understanding that is so important. We have a great resource to help us understand this even more. It's called Bearded Gospel Men: The Epic Quest for Manliness and Godliness.

I'm wondering, reading that title, Bearded Gospel Men, is there a connection? I didn't ever think of this between hairiness and holiness.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Well, there is No-Shave November, and now there's "Decemb-beard." Those are pretty popular. Jesus probably most likely had a beard as well. Every picture I've ever seen, Jesus has had a beard. But what we're really appealing to is a man who can hold their own, take care of their families, and love Jesus. First and foremost, love Jesus.

Bearded Gospel Men is a devotional for guys, for men, challenging them to rise to their higher calling. The humor and facial hair are just part of the broader conversation. You can get a copy of this book for a gift of any amount. Just click on the show notes for more information.

Erin Smalley: We've covered three lies today: the curse mistaken for a command, headship mistaken for authority, and submission turned into something to enforce instead of something that's freely given. Remember, God's design for marriage was never about one person winning and the other losing. It's about two people becoming one team, serving each other as they follow Christ together. Ephesians 5:21 encourages us to submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

Our prayer is that you'll leave today encouraged to practice mutual respect in ways that honor God and strengthen your marriage. But we're only half-way through this conversation, Greg.

Dr. Greg Smalley: We've got three more lies. Next time we're going to get into what this counterfeit authority actually does inside a marriage. What happens? How it changes the way a husband treats his wife's heart, her character, and even her body. This next episode, it's lie number four that absolutely has transformed me as a husband understanding my purpose around sacrificial love in something that I never realized before I really started studying all this. I can't wait to get into that next week.

Erin Smalley: That conversation is coming up in our next episode, so don't miss it. Thanks for joining us on Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage. Thanks for following the show and sharing it with your friends and family. We want you to have a seat at the table every week as we help equip you and your spouse to have a lifelong satisfying marriage.

We want to see you guys growing spiritually as individuals and as a couple. That's why we loved jumping into the Greek and the Hebrew today, really going through the word of God. So you can turn around and invest in other couples to help them have thriving marriages. Thanks for listening. We'll talk to you again next Monday about this crazy little thing called marriage.

Dave Stone: Your church comes to you each week to fill their cup. But when the crowd leaves, who's filling yours? That's exactly what I'm here to do with my new podcast from Focus on the Family. It's called Pastor to Pastor with Dave Stone.

I'm so excited to help you navigate the unique challenges that pastors face in their ministry journey, both personally and professionally. So, I invite you to listen and subscribe to Pastor to Pastor wherever you get your podcasts.