Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage

Dr. Greg Smalley: All right, we've got something really fun to tell you about. Our show merch is finally here.

Erin Smalley: And this is a limited time pre-order, which means once it's gone, it's gone.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Yeah, we've got designs that celebrate the real messy, beautiful side of marriage, basically everything we talk about right here on the show.

Erin Smalley: Pre-orders are open through the month of August, so you've got a short window to grab yours.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Yeah, use the link in our episode description and pick out your favorites today.

Erin Smalley: Seriously, don't miss it.

Welcome to Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage. I'm Dr. Greg Smalley and I'm joined again by my amazing wife, Erin Smalley.

Erin Smalley: Well, thank you, and of course, I'm joined here by my darling husband. Do you like that descriptor, darling?

Dr. Greg Smalley: I'm good with it.

Erin Smalley: Okay. You know the two of us took an oath years ago to support each other through hard times and easy times, good times and bad. And we agreed to take on this lifetime together.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Yeah, and I love to be on this journey with you, Erin. We often hear about leaving a legacy for our children, but what does having a marital legacy really look like? And that's our topic for today's episode. We're going to discuss developing a healthy marriage foundation that a stable legacy can be built upon.

Erin Smalley: I can't wait. And later on, we're going to hear from a wife who's been in a sexless marriage for 10 years, whose husband has been hiding some big financial secrets and she's asking us whether a healing separation is the right next step.

Dr. Greg Smalley: It's a hard one and we want to walk through it with a lot of care. So we're glad you've joined us today and we'll get to all of that right after this.

Erin Smalley: Joining us today is Lane McCanless. Lane is a speaker, author and co-founder of Rally Your Family, where he helps parents build stronger, more intentional families rooted in faith and purpose. So we have so much to get to, so let's jump right in. Welcome, Lane.

Lane McCanless: Well, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate the opportunity.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Lane, you and I had maybe six months ago an opportunity to meet and to talk and I remember from that conversation, telling this to Erin and to our producer, just saying, "Man, we've got to have this guy on."

I walked away from that conversation more encouraged and more excited in making sure that I'm living my life by design, with intentionality versus default. So maybe let's start there. Because that had a huge impact on me. For our listeners, just talk a little bit about the difference between living by design instead of by default.

Lane McCanless: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I enjoyed that conversation as well. I ended up telling my wife that it feels like I've known him for a lifetime, which is a great feeling after talking to someone. But yeah, that's what Josh and I, who's the co-founder of Rally Your Family with me, are really passionate about.

I don't think a lot of people take the time to realize that there's two paths in life. One is you live a life by default or the other is you live a life by design. Obviously, we would argue that a life lived by design is the much better way to live. And so we like to think about it like if you're living a life by default, it's kind of wherever the wind takes you. You're letting other people's schedules dictate your own and you're just reacting to what life throws at you rather than responding to it.

For us, a life by design is actually taking that step back and asking who you are, what you're doing, where you're going, why you're going there and how you're going to do it. Just simply by reframing it like that, most families realize, "I've thought about that for my business, I've thought about that for my nonprofit, I've thought about that for my organization, but I've never once considered that for my family." My heart in marriage and family is that that's the most important institution in your life. That's what God's trusted you with. And so why don't we steward that well?

Erin Smalley: That's so good. And I'm guessing most people would love to follow along with that, to be so intentional and live by design, but what gets in the way for them? What ends up happening? I mean, I can imagine what happens in my own life, but what do you hear?

Lane McCanless: Yeah, I mean, I have young kids and so they're the biggest blessing in the world, but you know that with kids comes a lot of responsibility also for the parents that are trying to coordinate schedules and figure out educational stewardship there, all the sports that they may be involved in or the extracurricular activities. Sometimes simply what gets in the way are not bad things.

And that's the hardest part, helping people realize that those things that are getting in the way, those obstacles, some of them aren't bad in and of themselves. But whenever it becomes a priority over something that God has commanded us to take very seriously, that's where we should say, "Hey, let's take a step back here and realize are we actually living the life that God called us to live?" Am I leading my wife well? Am I leading my kids well? Or am I simply letting someone else put those expectations on me and now having to figure it out?

That's just my heart. It almost feels like a spiritual burden in the best way to help people understand that there's a way better way and it's a life by design. I love the verse in Ephesians that talks about how we are God's masterpiece, that he created us long ago to do the good things that he had planned for us because that helps us understand that we are God's story.

He's writing an incredible story in your life, but what happens if we're not careful is we let other people start to take that pen and fill those things in for us. And so it's almost letting us get back to a point where we say, "God, you have an incredible life planned for me, planned for my family, planned for my kids. I'm going to let you be the author here and I'm going to live this life by design rather than letting other people fill in those blanks."

Dr. Greg Smalley: When did you notice that maybe other people had taken hold of the pen and now were starting to write your story or dictate elements of your story? How did that show up? Because usually, people are passionate about what they're doing for reasons. It usually makes a difference in their life. But when did you see that showing up?

Lane McCanless: Yeah, I think I saw it take place more often than we would all like to admit because it's really easy just to drift. We can talk about that from a spiritual perspective too, that no one wakes up one day and all of a sudden is completely off course. It's almost this slow fade or slow drift. Robert Bly has one of my favorite quotes and he says, "Where a man's wound is, that's where his genius will be."

I love that because for me, I actually had an incredible foundation in my childhood. I had this modeled for me really well until it wasn't. I always say I had the perfect childhood until it wasn't because, at 14, my family fell apart. As I can go back and relive what I was like watching my parents go through that season, it wasn't just waking up one day and all of a sudden being completely off track. It was this slow fade in a direction that they didn't want to go.

It makes me a little emotional to think about, but I can still go back to that moment of just closing my eyes and saying, "I'm never going to let this happen for my family." Really, a lot of my seeking out in my adult life has been trying to surround myself with other families that have managed to be intentional and faithful over decades and decades because there's no finish line until we take our last breath. I'm trying to watch people that are doing this well in every single season that the Lord has entrusted them with.

Erin Smalley: So powerful. And I love that you took that from your pain and you're choosing to do something very different with your family. How does that look on a practical basis? As I'm listening, I'm thinking, okay, so living by design, if you saw a family that was living by design, what would you see happening?

Lane McCanless: Yeah, so the unique part about Rally Your Family is, really, if you boil it down, we're sitting back with families and saying, "Let's start with establishing core values for your family. Who are you and what are you about?" Then we do what's called a manifesto exercise. Every organization that you can think of has a mission and vision statement. We wrap those into one cohesive statement called a manifesto.

Then we actually create what we call a modernized family crest. We actually come up with a logo for your family because we argue that your family should be your most important brand. Really what we're doing is helping families get as intentional with their family as they are with all their other things in life.

Whenever you start to do those exercises of just saying, "Hey, pick three to seven values and we're going to display these on your wall in your home," my hope is that whenever you look in the window, not only are you seeing my values hang on my wall, but that my actions actually back up what's hanging on my wall. Statistically, the second you start to articulate those and then write those down and declare them over your life and your family, you're much more conscious of those decisions as you go throughout your day.

Whenever I see on my wall "character over comfort," "gratitude over greed," "kindness over keeping score," "memories over materials," it's a lot easier for me to go, "Hey, a new car would be nice in this season, but the McCanlesses are about memories over materials." It almost becomes like a life filter for families to be able to say, "Is this who we are and is this who we claim to be, and are my actions actually aligning with what I've claimed?"

Dr. Greg Smalley: Yeah, and it sounds like it'll help make decisions as well, to your point. Like, do we spend the money towards a new car or do we put the money towards a cool trip to where we're making memories? Although, a new Ford Raptor, I feel like we could make some really amazing memories there.

Erin Smalley: This Ford Raptor comes up quite a bit.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Could that be a value? A Ford Raptor? Is that a value?

Lane McCanless: You know what, I've never seen it become a family core value, but you could be the first.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Well, see, there's hope. That's what I hear. What are some of those big core values then? Because you rattled off some of the ones that hang on your wall. What are some of the big ones? As someone's thinking this through, values seem like such a broad, intimidating word. "What are my values?" What are some of the big ones for you?

Lane McCanless: Yeah, I love that question. A lot of times I try to remind myself and others that those values probably already exist within your family. Our job is not to try to manufacture values that aren't there and try to get you to all of a sudden become someone who lives those out. Mainly my job and my hope is to really look at what are the things that come natural to us and what are those gifts and talents and abilities that God has put on your heart and your spouse's heart and your kids' heart and how do you bring those to the surface?

For us as we sat around, it's like let's not try to pretend to be someone we're not. Let's not try to pretend to be a family that we're not. What are the things that God has already inclined our ears, our hearts and our spirits towards? Naturally, hospitality is my wife's love language. It's what she's gifted at. Naturally, it's like, hey, I love that. It's also a cool feeling as a spouse to be able to call those things out in your family.

It's like, "Aspen, I love that God has given my wife the gift of hospitality. What does that look like to play out in our family dynamic?" Okay, then let's look at generosity. We want to be a generous family. You're starting to look at things like these are natural reflexes. Let's declare these and then let's make sure they show up on a consistent basis.

For us, the ones I just rattled off, we try to focus on character, we try to focus on kindness, we try to focus on generosity, and hospitality. The list could go on and on, honestly, but we try to cap it at no more than seven because if you try to be all things for all people, then you can't really do what God has called your family specifically to accomplish.

Erin Smalley: What is the flip side of this? If someone's not living from their core values and living with intentionality, what does that look like?

Lane McCanless: Yeah, I think that's a loaded and heavy question because whenever you start to realize what values are, you'll realize that some people are living out values one way or another, whether those were good values that were given to them or whether those were bad values that they inherited. I'm well aware that there's probably a large portion of your audience that says, "Hey, it must be nice to come from a great home even if it was a broken family later on; at least you had a foundation of good values."

I think my hope would be that I would want people to understand that whenever you get married, you and your spouse essentially get to take the best bricks from both of your homes and start to build your new one. In a similar way with values, take the best values that you've seen modeled in your own family and that your spouse saw modeled growing up and start to build those values for your own family to follow through.

If you're not careful and you never establish those values from the get-go, then yeah, that's whenever you tend to fall into a life of default and you'll realize, you'll fast forward the clock 20, 30, 40 years and go, "How in the world did I get here? I never wanted to end up here." It's because you never did the hard work of starting with the end in mind.

Part of the exercise that I think is just such a sobering exercise is for us to get to the point where we look at life and say, "What would it look like to start with the end of my life?" I know it sounds a little bit morbid, but it's not. When you're on your deathbed and you're taking your last breath, what is it that you want to be remembered for? What legacy are they going to say that Lane McCanless left?

In those moments, you start to realize, if I'm not careful and I don't start living some of these things out, there's no way those things will be said about me. For me, that exercise helped me realize like obviously at the end of my life I want people to know that I love the Lord with all my heart, soul, mind and strength, I want my wife to know that I loved her dearly and I want my kids to know that I loved them and I was their biggest fan. My core values, if you bake them down into a statement, it's like I care what God, my wife, my kids and a few good friends have to say about me at the end of my life. That's what I would encourage people to wrestle with as they walk through the exercise of what do I stand for and what am I about and how does that go into how I lead my family?

Erin Smalley: I could even see using this with premarital couples prior to marriage, having them think about this even then. Which again, thinking about the end versus the beginning, but really when you have a goal of where you're going, it's so helpful for how you begin.

Lane McCanless: You know, I think we started this with the intention of let's help young families that are in the trenches. While that is a lot of the families that we get to help through Rally Your Family, there's also been this really cool dynamic of understanding, "Hey, we've got to work with kids that are stepping into their young adult years and now trying to walk this into dating, engagement and now what do I want my marriage to stand for?"

We've also got to work on the flip side of things with generations. We've worked with grandparents that are still trying to live this out because believe it or not, your kids are still watching you. I'm a full-grown man still watching how my parents are living their life. And so just because you are an empty nester or you don't have kids in the home, that does not give you an excuse to throw the rulebook to the wayside.

In fact, your kids are still wanting you to live those values out. Chances are they're trying to figure out what stuck with Mom and Dad so that I can make sure to pass those down to my kids. But if you're no longer modeling that as Grandma and Grandpa, then why in the world would I want to pass something that's not going to last down to my kids?

Erin Smalley: Well shoot, that means that we can't just live the free-for-all after Annie leaves. I was looking forward to the free-for-all.

Dr. Greg Smalley: We're going to have Lane record some of what he just said so that there's room for us exactly. I'll make a Lane doll we can push the button and he'll say that over and over again. "I'm looking in your window right now and I'm concerned at what I'm seeing from the two of you."

For that couple who's going, "I love that," because I think anytime I hear someone start to really talk about core values, mission, vision, and then we start to unpack that, I get really inspired. Then it's like, okay, then real life takes over and we get busy and fall back into some of the default that you're talking about. What would be a good place for a couple to start really thinking about values? Are there a few core questions that you really encourage that couple to start to answer?

Lane McCanless: Yeah, I think one of the most fun parts of the process is, whether you utilize Rally for this or whether you just take the initiative as a husband or wife to go about doing this for your family, we start it always with a date night. Get alone with your spouse. We typically have a questionnaire that we send with couples and we say, "Hey, pick a nice steak dinner or whatever your favorite dinner is, go out, share a nice meal and then we'll give you some questions to talk through."

If you're not careful, you'll get in the habitual aspect of just taking your spouse out and not actually talking about the things that you need to go through life with. It's like, let's go in with intentional questions. Let's start to talk about these values and let's see what naturally comes up in that moment.

Some of those things are like: what makes you happy, what makes you sad, what are the things that God smiles upon in your life, what are the things that you really get frustrated whenever people violate? That really quickly starts to have the conversations flow about things that matter to us. Let's take another deeper look at these and what would it look like for us to actually live these out and establish them.

Dr. Greg Smalley: I forgot my lunch, so when you talked about steaks, I was very drawn to that. But you think about going out for a nice steak dinner, Erin loves hers prepared the opposite of what I like.

Erin Smalley: I like it the right way, medium-well.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Okay, I'm sorry. I threw up a little bit in my mouth, but yeah, I'm more medium-rare. But for couples, I imagine that as you start to talk about these, much like Erin and I might like our steak very different, what do you do when maybe they don't align on certain values or they just see life very different? They want something different on their crest.

Lane McCanless: I mean, what a great question and something we see play out all the time. I see it play out in my marriage too, because Aspen and I are very different people. There are aspects that I absolutely love about her that makes her so unique and different than me and vice-versa. There are probably also some things that I do that drive her absolutely bonkers and that's okay.

Read them out loud for the audience. But yeah, I think that there's also this aspect of: you're going to have personal values. The reason I go there is because if I want to be a good leader for my family, it starts by leading myself. There are going to be certain things that I'm very passionate about and that I kinds of articulate: "Hey, this is my standard for Lane McCanless. These are the things that I value, this is kind of what I'm after."

Aspen is going to have her values in life as well. But I think the important part about coming together and establishing them for your family is you start to realize this is where unity comes into play. You are a united front and you need to figure out what you and your family are going to stand for. Just as organizationally, you're going to have different departments with different goals, different talents, and different abilities, there's still one mission that unites the organization to move forward.

You're trying to accomplish that same exact thing with your family. How do we move forward? How do we grow? What is the Lord calling us to and how is he going to use each individual member of that family to accomplish his purpose in a variety of different ways? There's beauty in that. The more you try to control it and say, "This is who we are and this is what we're about," and plant your flag—"You will like your steak this way"—it's just not going to be as enjoyable.

In the example that you're using, if she gets to order her steak how she likes it and you get to order it how you like it, you get to share this meal together that you both really enjoy. That's our hope for family values as well. If I'm all of a sudden trying to manipulate my sons into being someone that God did not call them to be or my wife to be someone that God did not call her to be, then I've missed the point. I've got to start with leading myself well so that I can lead my family well, then lead my community well, and so on. If you get those out of order, it's a nightmare.

Erin Smalley: Wow. When did you start applying this in your family?

Lane McCanless: I started applying it right whenever I got married. The reason being is because, whenever I mentioned earlier that my family fell apart when I was 14, thankfully I have a great relationship with my parents even though they're no longer together and I have a great relationship with my older brother and younger sister, but if I'm not careful I'll swing the pendulum and try to overcorrect. I almost got hyper-obsessive over making sure this never happens to my family.

What happened in the process—and really that's the whole concept of Fathergood, which is the book we were talking about right before we started—I never wanted my platform or anything I was doing to be, "Look at me as I figure out this fatherhood thing." For me, Fathergood was, let me go after conversations with guys and gals that are already crushing it in parenting and have the posture of a sponge and say, "Hey, I've noticed some things about you."

One of my longest-standing mentors, his name's Ryan Knight, is a dean of a college around here. The relationship he has with his kiddos and I've gotten to watch him for now a little bit over 10 years in season and out of season, that man is faithful. That man's marriage is solid, his friendships are solid, his kids are solid, and that's not because I've only seen the highlights of his life. I've got to watch him walk through a rollercoaster of emotions of things that have happened in his life and get a front-row seat to say, "Hey, that's a man that I want to learn from."

I try to become a sponge. Ted Cunningham is another one I've been so blessed by, not only his ministry of sitting under his leadership at church but now getting to serve in some capacities of ministry alongside him. I mean, talk about me trying to be a sponge and say, "Hey, I'm not an expert here, I'm not trying to have it all figured out, but I want to align my life in a way that I'm spending a lot of time with people that have been faithful in season and out of season."

My posture with any platform that God ever gives me is not, "Watch me as I model this out." Hopefully, I'm doing what I say I do, but more than that, it's, "Please watch me as I'm continually a lifelong learner of all things marriage and of all things family, because I'm in the trenches with you and I'm trying to figure this out as well."

Erin Smalley: Beautiful and so humble. I appreciate that so much. What would you say to the family that's going, "We haven't been doing this and let's say we're five years into marriage and we want to start?" How would you encourage them to begin this process?

Lane McCanless: I would say start right now. There's no better time than right now. I think if we're not careful, we'll start to beat ourselves up and say, "You know what, this is crazy, I can't believe I've lived so long without doing this." There's going to be every thought in the book running through their mind of, "Am I too late? Did I already mess up this with my own family and my own kids?"

The answer's no. I mean, you've heard Ted say it and probably a lot of others, but don't spend your days in regret; ask the Lord to redeem your remaining days. The God we serve is a God of redemption, of grace, and he wants to pour that out over you as your family. I think one of the best moves that you can make as a father or as a husband or as a spouse in that aspect is to go to your spouse, go to your kids and say, "Hey, I'm wanting to be more intentional. I haven't always got it right, but I'm wanting to start tonight and establish these things."

Guess what, you're probably going to get some funny looks depending on how old your kids are. You're going to get some eye-rolls of, "What is Dad trying to do right now?" But you get to walk them through: this matters to me and here's why, and let's do this together. That's why we call it Rally. The definition of rally is to rejuvenate after challenging times.

I don't get the benefit or the luxury of knowing how these families are walking in. I don't know if they're walking in at a great headspace, I don't know if all things are well in their life or if they've never even once thought about living this life by design. I would challenge every single family that walks in to just go into it with an open mind. Today could be the day that I drastically change the trajectory of my family. What a powerful thought.

Dr. Greg Smalley: It really is. When you work with couples, when someone catches this vision and is inspired and passionate, but let's say that for years there's been a high conflict and a lot of things going on inside the marriage that made the relationship feel pretty unsafe. How does someone take this new vision and passion that you're talking about and begin to do that within a family that hasn't felt very safe?

Lane McCanless: Yeah, well, my heart goes out to all of the individuals who would find themselves in that situation right now, but I would also say you're in familiar company because the drastic reality is that so many families are walking through some level of dysfunction, some of those more than others. I'm always a huge advocate of fixing some of those elements so that you can get to a position where you can start to get healthy together.

For some people, it's not going to be jumping into this right away, but I do think that the first step is admitting that you need help and you need intentionality and that you need to be more conscientious of some of these conversations with your spouse. For so many families there probably are underlying issues that we would encourage you: please walk through those together. Whatever that looks like, whether that's marriage counseling, whether that's any of the resources that are out there to start to heal some of those and walk through that healing process and journey together.

As you do, you're going to have shared and common language for where you want to go. But it is, to your point, really hard for people to picture where they want to go as a family if they're just simply trying to survive. They don't have the luxury of being able to think about where they want to be in 5, 10, or 15 years because they're just thinking, "I don't even know if I'm going to be able to make it through conversation with my spouse tonight." We would always advocate getting the help that you need so that you can get the healing you need and the reconciliation and the redemption that God wants to pour out over your marriage so that then you can get to a space where you lead your family well.

Dr. Greg Smalley: That's good. I love the encouragement because that family might be going through whatever crisis and they haven't felt safe. But to your point as well, this could be a family that's just barely financially surviving from week to week and maybe they're going, "Yeah, I love, Lane, what you're talking about, but man, that feels like you've got to have some money and time and resources to figure this out and tell me how I can even make our rent payment next week." Even for that family that's going, "Yeah, we get along great, we just have no resources, we're just barely surviving." What would you say to that family?

Lane McCanless: I would just encourage people that regardless of what season you're in, you still have the option and the ownership and, if I take it one step further, the responsibility to lead well in whatever your season looks like. While a lot of us like to make they could be genuine roadblocks for what's keeping you from being able to think about those things, I would just encourage you that let's not let those accidentally leak into excuses for pushing the ball downfield.

When it comes to values and the things that you do have control over, I love the concept of God's sovereignty: you do your job of controlling the controllables. You control the inputs, but God controls the outcomes. I think the posture of that is saying, "God, I don't know how you're going to show up and I don't know how you're going to provide in this season, but I'm already going to start to live in such a way that I'm intentional with the resources that you've entrusted me with and I'm going to lead well, I'm going to serve well and I'm going to show up as a son or daughter of Christ in this situation and allow you to work in ways that only you can work."

I would just encourage people, don't allow yourself to drift into a position to where you say, "I'll do that later," "I'll do that tomorrow," "I'll do that when there's no stress," because anybody can tell you that they're stressed out in this season and that's why they can't think about it, but there are probably 50 or 60 other things that they're going to be stressed out about in a few weeks anyway. If you use those as excuses not to be intentional, I don't think that's what our posture or our heart should be about, because God's wanting to work in the situation that you're in right now, not once you're on the other side of it.

Dr. Greg Smalley: That's so true, Erin, for you and me we hear this all the time, counseling couples who say, "Yeah, we're in that busy, crazy kids and work and church and hobbies and pickleball, of course. And once we hit the empty nest years, then that'll be our time as a couple." You're right. Sadly, they wake up feeling so disconnected like married roommates that the hope of, "We'll just keep kicking that can down the road, someday we'll have time to really reconnect," just rarely ever works that way.

Lane McCanless: Yeah, I love that and I would try to encourage a lot of people as well as something my spouse and I are constantly talking about: finding the value of both quality and quantity time. Sometimes we put too much of an emphasis on one and not on the other. But what you'll realize is that the thing that we all have the same amount of is time. All of us have 24 hours in the day and I get that there's different variables of how much that means you're at home or how much that means you're away or how much you're working or how much you're playing.

The reality of it is your kids are watching how you spend and how you use that time and that's ultimately where they're picking up on what matters to Mom and Dad. Simply, a really crazy question, I was at an event called Kinsmen, which is a phenomenal organization here in our area, and I just started that conversation to a room of about 300 men and I said, "If I was to call your wife or your kids up on stage right now and ask them what you stood for, what would they say?"

You could have heard a pin drop in that room because there's a lot of answers that could show up, of, "Oh, Dad really values being on his phone," or, "Dad really values work," or, "Dad really values pickleball." These could be good things. But when they're not in the proper place or whenever that's the only thing your kids are seeing modeled, that's naturally what they're going to inherit.

So it's way less about just talking about these things. As much as I love displaying them, that doesn't cut it. Your kids are actually saying, "Are Mom and Dad living this out? Are they carrying this through with them as they go on their daily basis?" That's what Deuteronomy chapter 6 is talking about as well, right? Actually be about these things in the way that you get up in the morning, in the way that you go to sleep, in the way that you go to Target, in the way that you go pick them up in the drive-up school line. They're watching how you're showing up and they're watching what values Mom and Dad are actually carrying with them in life.

Erin Smalley: Lane, so much wisdom and just such great thoughts and challenges. I can't wait to sit down and dig deeper into values and what we really intentionally want to pass on. I mean, we've done that at some level, but I want to take it deeper as a result of this conversation. Thank you so much for the work you're doing with marriages and families. I just believe that you will be greatly blessed as you do that work.

Lane McCanless: Thank you so much. I appreciate the opportunity. I love what you guys are doing. Your ministry has directly impacted Aspen and I and so we love you guys. We're so grateful and love being your cheerleaders and always in your guys' corner.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Well, good, man. So good to see you and tell Aspen she's got the coolest name ever.

Lane McCanless: Yeah, there we go. Colorado.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Exactly. I knew it sounded familiar for a reason. But Lane, thank you so much.

Lane McCanless: Thank you, guys.

Dr. Greg Smalley: It's been so fun to watch Lane now over these years and just what God's doing with him and his passion to help families really leave kind of that lasting legacy. I tell you, he really caused me to sit back and go, "Hmm, I wonder how my family would answer that question." Remember, he used to talk to all those guys and said, "If I brought your wife out here, what would she say that you stand for?" Man, I wouldn't put you on the spot like that.

But I would hope though that what you would see or our adult kids now would see would be more of those kinds of values that are important to me. If I had to narrow down to seven—because I was just kind of writing after we finished the interview—things like, of course, my relationship with Jesus, so a Christ follower would be number one.

I was thinking about growth and being teachable because we always tell our kids "fail forward." I would hope that that would be one of the things that would be noticed that I stand for. You know, things like honor and kindness, feeling safe and secure, and sacrifice. Laughter's a big one for me as well, but I would hope that wouldn't be the only thing though that you or one of the kids would notice is important to me. How about you?

Erin Smalley: Yeah, when I was thinking about it, interesting. Well, I put love Jesus first.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Copycat. It's okay.

Erin Smalley: Yeah. And then I put love others and that we love each other in our family. That's what I want to be present in our household. Amongst all nine of us now we're all very different. Very, very different and I'm certain that each of us would answer this differently, but what I value so much is that we love each other.

I think our kids must have seen that in our family because they all love each other and they love us. Even though we see the world differently sometimes, that doesn't trump the love we have for each other. Then my last one—and you got so very relational with yours—I said work hard and work hard unto the Lord. That is a value and I will say our kids caught that one too because they are all very hard workers. Our daughter Annie is going to go to college. She hasn't even gotten there and she has three jobs lined up. I'm like, "Aren't you going there to go to school?" But she has caught that value from us that we work hard.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Well, you. I kind of tend to be more like the sloth. Let's just relax.

Erin Smalley: That's your spirit animal, you say.

Dr. Greg Smalley: That's right. No, I believe in hard work as well. You know, when you work with couples, I love that you'll do an exercise often with your couples called the BE list. This is something that we learned from one of our intensive therapists, one of our Hope Restored therapists started doing this and it's such a cool thing and this might be a great exercise for our listeners. Kind of explain what that is.

Erin Smalley: Well, it's the B-E list. Who did God create us each to be?

Dr. Greg Smalley: I thought it was the B-E-E.

Erin Smalley: No, the B-E. Not like you make honey. It's B-E, who did God create you to be as your best self? So it's really thinking through—I have each individual think through—five character qualities they display on their best day.

Of course, our dear friend Cindy Irwin came up with this, but what would you display on your very best day? Five things that just come naturally from who you are, who God created you to be.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Give an example. What would that look like for you? One or two.

Erin Smalley: For me, fun-loving would just comes naturally from me.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Goofy. Yeah.

Erin Smalley: Goofy? Did you say she's goofy?

Dr. Greg Smalley: No, fun-loving.

Erin Smalley: No, I'm fun-loving. I am kind and caring and compassionate with people. Then the next two words, I really have them look at, "If you tried, if you put a little effort in, what would be displayed?" For me, that would be organized if I put some effort in. Although, do note that I have piles all over, so if I tried, I could be organized but today...

Dr. Greg Smalley: I knew exactly where Annie's immunization records were. Which pile they were in and I nailed it.

Erin Smalley: Nailed it. So organized would appear if I tried. I would also say if I worked on it, I can be very patient. Then the last category is: what is God calling you to display in this season? In this season, I think God is calling me to display hopefulness. Just to be hopeful about the future.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Yeah, the word that came to my mind was perseverance because you're on chapter five of your dissertation. You've done a three-and-a-half-year journey.

Erin Smalley: I'm going to start twitching in just a minute.

Dr. Greg Smalley: It requires perseverance that you've had, but I like hope, too. We encourage you to walk through that exercise together. We'll throw the questions in the show notes for you guys to walk through, but Erin and I have done this.

It's a great reminder, hearing even now, Erin, listening to what you were saying. It brings a smile, there's a peacefulness of going, "Yeah, you know what, in those moments when we are operating as our best self, those are the kinds of things that are true." I absolutely see those things in you. Of course, we have bad days and we go through hard times and we're in conflict in moments, but this is that person that God created us to be. And that's the power of this kind of thing.

We'll throw those questions there. You guys go through it. Enjoy that. Let us know, tell us about three or four things that you display when you are being your best self. We also have a wonderful resource called *Finishing Well: Biblical Lessons to Maximize Your Later Years*.

This is a convincing and inspiring reminder that the Lord is not done with us until the moment he calls us home. The book is written by Pastor John Goodell and he's been on the Focus on the Family daily radio program. In it, he takes you through biblical stories that have everyday applications as we live out our lives and we leave our legacy, which is so important. It's an easy read and it's yours for a gift of any amount when you go to our show notes.

Well, there are a lot of television programs that tell the stories of Vikings, of knights and of ancient times. So it got me thinking. All these families of the past had these really cool crests, like these family logos. Erin, what if you and I then created a really amazing, cool-looking crest or emblem for the Smalley family?

Erin Smalley: I love that idea, Greg. And I'd be so curious what ours would look like. What would the Smalley family crest look like? Bottom line, every couple has a story worth putting into a symbol. And we want you to give it a try, too.

Dr. Greg Smalley: So here's how you can do this. Reflect first and then design second. Before opening any AI tool, talk together about what actually tells your story. Maybe this is a shared hobby, a favorite verse or a proverb, an animal that really means something to you, a place you love, or a season that you guys came through together. Then write a simple prompt describing the style, maybe a medieval crest or a shield, plus your own chosen symbols and colors.

Erin Smalley: And just to note, most AI tools cap your free image allotment to around five per day.

Dr. Greg Smalley: I found this one out very quickly.

Erin Smalley: You did. So did you pay?

Dr. Greg Smalley: No.

Erin Smalley: So we just want to encourage you, treat each one as a refinement, not as a first draft. Adjust one element at a time, but remember you might only have five.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Right. Again, you're asking, "What do we really want to pass on?" The best crests are not just decorative. They encode values that you want your kids or grandkids to inherit. What we started from was Genesis 2:24. This is the first instruction to Adam and Eve as husband and wife to leave their family of origin and to cleave to each other so that they became one.

That began for us as the prompt that we fed in to get an image. Then we went with an outer boundary of our design that represents the "leave" portion of Genesis 2:24. Really what that is, it's the covenant line that we keep choosing and it's the thing that lets us keep growing individually and together instead of staying stuck in ruts.

We were trying to think about how we could write a prompt explaining what it was that we wanted. We said kind of at the center, think of these two overlapping circles, and that's where the word "cleave" really came in. One of the definitions of cleave is to closely pursue each other. This day-after-day pursuit was one of the things that's important to us.

Over the whole design sits a cross because our "why" isn't just each other; it's the greatest commandment: love God first, become healthy individuals, then pour that love out on each other and others, cherishing and nourishing one another so we both flourish. These were all the things that we put into our prompt to generate this image.

This is where I kind of lost it in going down one of those dark deep rabbit holes because then I started thinking, "Well, our last name's Smalley, I wonder if there's some ancient Smalley group who had already developed this." In fact, I did find an ancient Smalley crest. Again, you could do the same thing. You may not find what we found, but perhaps you might. We found the colors for the Smalley clan: black, silver, and red.

It had red roses as a part of the original crest as well as the chess piece, the rook. Then I was so confused as to why. We started researching even more and apparently the rook symbolizes protection, vigilance, wisdom and steadfast strength. I was like, "Oh, okay, those are cool," because those are qualities that resonate deeply with our desire to not only guard our faith but our marriage and also our family. Not simply to honor our heritage, but as a way of connecting to our family's story, to the generations who've come before us and Lord willing to the generations that will follow.

Erin Smalley: It's so cool. It's very good. I can't wait for our listeners to see it. We're going to put the crest on the Strengthening Marriages Facebook group. If you haven't joined that yet, do that Strengthening Marriages Facebook group. What would your crest look like? How would you make this uniquely you and your spouse and your family? We'd love to see the crest that you've created in our Facebook group. We'll put a link in the show notes so you can join us in that online community.

Dr. Greg Smalley: And if you already have a family crest, that's awesome. Tell us what's the story behind it. We'd love to learn more about you.

Erin Smalley: Well, welcome to today's Q&A session. Today's question comes from an anonymous listener and this is what she wrote. "Dear Greg and Erin, I wrote in before about my sexless marriage of 10 years. My husband has always been guarded with information about finances and money. He recently pawned something I used for business. When I found out I was deeply hurt. He had the opportunity to tell me that there were two other items he pawned, but he didn't mention them.

"When I found out about the other items, by the way all inherited from my father, he said, 'If you leave me I'll die.' Since then he's been asking how I can be helped. Always asking if I need anything and it's a nice attempt, but I've been more than honest throughout this relationship. Telling him years ago how important sex was and how my agape and eros love was turning more into a brotherly love and he did nothing to change it.

"I can't live this way any longer. We sleep in separate rooms and really live separate lives. I caught myself saying, 'I don't care.' I'm leaving him for a healing separation. That's the next best thing to do, right? Honestly it will be a legal separation. I can't heal while living here. I'm not healing. Is this enough for a divorce?"

Dr. Greg Smalley: This is so hard. We hear that this just isn't about the distance in the "roommate" relationship that they're in. Now you're talking about a repeated pattern of deception, hidden pawning of her belongings. These were inherited items. He's been caught in the lie now more than once. These are big deal 10 years of all of this.

I imagine you've got to be just exhausted. It's no wonder that you're saying, "I need a healing separation." Erin, you've done a lot of work around healing separations. I know you've worked with several of your couples in that. We'll throw a link to Erin's article in the show notes, but maybe talk about that for a second.

Erin Smalley: Yeah, healing separation is a structured separation and I emphasize the word "structured" because structure is what helps to build safety as you do this. Emotional safety as you develop what is going to work for you and your spouse to create enough space for both individuals to heal. Sometimes when we remain in the marriage that is inducing pain after pain after pain, it's almost like impeding healing from happening because it's so volatile or distant or painful.

Creating this agreed-upon time that is very structured—again, I say structured—to bring healing to both individuals so there can be healing for the marriage. The big key with this—I stress this—is it has to be overseen. The healing separation needs to be cared for by an overseer. Whether that's a pastor, a mentor, or a licensed Christian counselor, so it will be effective. Otherwise, there's no accountability. We're going to put that in the notes and it is a PDF all about what a healing separation is, why to do it, as well as how to do it.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Yes, there's a tool that you can use for that because it's important to recognize it's a boundary that you're saying needs to be present right now. We talk about boundaries a lot, but just again as a reminder, a boundary is something that we put in place to keep our hearts open. Erin and I hear you saying this has gone on for 10 years—the deception, the stealing of stuff, pawning them. It's shut you down and has hardened your heart. That's where the healing separation comes in.

Erin, what about "If you leave me I'll die?" Certainly, there's a part of that that's very manipulative, trying to say, "Hey, if you don't do what I want, then this is what I'm going to do." But should someone take that not just as a manipulation tactic?

Erin Smalley: Well, I would definitely be exploring that. What do you mean? If you're saying, "If you leave me I'll die," are you having suicidal thoughts? Are you having thoughts of self-harm? Do you have a plan? I would encourage that person to get—if they say yes to any of those questions—take them to the emergency room or call 911. Get help. It's not something to be taken lightly.

Dr. Greg Smalley: The other thing that Erin and I would really encourage you to do as you're thinking through the healing separation is to reach out to a family law attorney and understand your rights and protections. This is serious, what's going on, and you need to make sure that you're protected.

Erin and I usually won't answer a question like you said at the end: "Is there enough here for divorce?" Erin and I believe with all of our hearts that's a decision between you and the Lord and we don't feel it's ever our right that it's our job to say, "Oh yeah, based on everything you've said, you should get a divorce." We don't have the full story and all of the context, but even if we did, that's not our job.

Erin Smalley: No, because you made a covenant with the Lord and that's between you and him. I definitely would take the time to seek the healing separation knowing that space and time is going to let your heart reopen. I would never make a permanent decision about my marriage from the place of a closed heart.

Right now, it makes sense that your heart is closed, but I would create some space and distance, seek individual counseling for myself, and draw in those select few wise individuals that can speak truth into your life and pray with you and walk with you. Then I would begin asking the Lord, "What do you say? What are you calling me to? Are you calling me to stay?"

If the relationship is abusive, go get help. Go to a safe place. One hundred percent. Erin and I are passionate about marriage, but God did not send his son to die for marriage, for an institution. He sent his son to die for people. And you matter. What's going on is not okay. Erin and I love the steps that you're taking. Do that with a Christian counselor, get that legal help that you need, and that's really where your effort needs to go.

Just to clarify, if you aren't sure that you could possibly heal and come back, then I would scrap the healing separation and I would go directly to the legal separation. But of course, seek legal advice, seek wisdom from pastors and counselors, and then make that decision and keep all of it bathed in prayer. I know this isn't easy and it's messy. Take care of you in this process.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Thank you so much for entrusting us with your story for what you're facing. That matters. We love that opportunity to walk with you and to speak into this. These are complex situations that we get to hear about and they can be so difficult to navigate. Remember, you can always call our counseling line at 800-A-Family. 800-A-Family, so you can speak to one of our caring Christian counselors.

Erin Smalley: Just remember there is no question that's forbidden or taboo with Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage. When we say we want to walk with you in your marital journey, we actually mean that. Leave us your questions and comments by clicking on the show notes below.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Well, thank you for joining us on Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage.

Erin Smalley: Yes, thank you for following the show and sharing it with your friends and family. We want you to have a seat at the table every week as we help equip you and your spouse to have a lifelong satisfying marriage that can be represented right now with a beautiful family crest.

Dr. Greg Smalley: We also want to see you growing spiritually as individuals and together as a couple so you can turn right around and invest in other couples to help them build thriving marriages.

Erin Smalley: Well, thanks for listening. We'll talk to you again next Monday about this crazy little thing called marriage.

Dr. Greg Smalley: All right, we've got something really fun to tell you about. Our show merch is finally here.

Erin Smalley: And this is a limited time pre-order, which means once it's gone, it's gone.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Yeah, we've got designs that celebrate the real messy, beautiful side of marriage, basically everything we talk about right here on the show.

Erin Smalley: Pre-orders are open through the month of August, so you've got a short window to grab yours.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Yeah, use the link in our episode description and pick out your favorites today.

Erin Smalley: Seriously, don't miss it.