Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage

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Dr. Greg Smalley: Welcome to Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage. I'm Dr. Greg Smalley and I'm joined by my amazing wife of 34 years, Erin Smalley.

Erin Smalley: We just passed 34 years, just celebrated.

Dr. Greg Smalley: So should we round up? 35 years? You always do that. I never know how many years we've been married because you like to round up so quickly.

Erin Smalley: And then I get confused. I used to be able to keep it straight, but I can't anymore.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Well, welcome, Erin, to the show.

Erin Smalley: Thank you so much. I appreciate your genuine goodness, your generous heart, your gentle grace. I get to experience that every day of my life.

Dr. Greg Smalley: None of that felt genuine, by the way.

Erin Smalley: Totally genuine. I meant it.

Dr. Greg Smalley: All right, you are welcome. In today's episode, we're going to cover some serious stuff. We're joking now, but it's to set up the fact that we're going to go deep. We'll be talking about infidelity. We're going to help couples understand the behaviors that can lead to infidelity and the steps that will help after an affair has taken place.

Erin Smalley: That's a lot. We're going to continue with the topic of infidelity. Our Q&A is actually from a listener who had an affair and is reaching out for some support, which we love. Then we're going to jump into how can we conquer and divide the household chores? I hear about this a lot with clients, with friends, and in my own home. How do we do this as a team? How do we clean together?

Dr. Greg Smalley: We're going to get to all of that right after this.

Erin Smalley: Joining us today are Brad and Tammy Miller. Not only is he an ordained pastor but also a retired firefighter. Brad and Tammy have been married for over 40 years. Tammy is a marriage and family therapist. Together, they head up Tandem Marriage, which is an organization dedicated to helping couples build healthy relationships. Brad and Tammy, we're thrilled that you're here with us.

Brad Miller: We are thrilled as well. Thank you so much for having us. This is a blast.

Dr. Greg Smalley: We love having you. Today, we're going to be talking about infidelity in marriage. We would love to understand where your passion for helping couples recover from infidelity came from. It doesn't sound like one of those things that somebody says, "I'll sign up for that one."

Tammy Miller: We didn't. When our daughters were in junior high and high school, I went back to grad school and decided to be a clinical counselor, marriage and family therapist. During my training and my internship, one of the opportunities was to work on affair recovery. I thought, "Oh, that sounds great." So, I put that in my toolbox. Just one seminar.

When I went back to where I was interning, we worked primarily with churches and Christian couples. They said, "Gosh, we need this so bad." Suddenly, everybody they sent me was for affair recovery. When you know a half ounce more than anybody else, you're the expert. That was the genesis.

I'm the type of person who needs to know more, so I just dove in. The person who originally did the class I went to took me under his wing and taught me a lot of things about it. Brad and I started working with some couples together. We opened a group practice. The interns that wanted to come in and be a part of our group practice came because that's what they wanted to learn. As crazy as it sounds, we became experts in that area. Every time we say, "Okay, we don't want to do this anymore. It's too hard," God says, "No, I'll tell you when you're done." And then you guys call.

Brad Miller: For us, the goal really is that we want to work ourselves out of a job. 100%, we want to work ourselves out of a job. So we're going to keep at it until we have walkers and everything else. It doesn't matter. We're going to keep at it.

Erin Smalley: I'm thankful that you guys are doing this work because I know as a counselor as well that 25 to 40% of my caseload is couples recovering from infidelity. So it's so needed. Who would you say is more susceptible to infidelity? What are some of the more common reasons individuals or couples give for engaging in infidelity?

Brad Miller: In my experience, it's men who are more susceptible. But when women are done, they're done. Men are more susceptible, but after they've been caught, after they realize what they've done, they often want to repair.

Dr. Greg Smalley: What makes men more susceptible then? What's going on?

Brad Miller: I think it's just the fact that men are built different by God. Women are typically the emotional barometer. Women might be saying for years, "Hey, something's off with us," and he says, "Yeah, whatever, we're fine." While he's coping in another way and getting some of his needs met—not healthy, not God-honoring—but that's what we see happen a lot. It's got to change.

Dr. Greg Smalley: What then would be going on within the marriage, within the relationship, that causes people to drift and turn to someone else and get involved either in an emotional affair or a physical affair?

Tammy Miller: I love that you used the word "drift" because that's exactly how I was thinking we should start. We have noticed that women are growing in number of what we like to call betrayal, and them betraying their spouse. I think the cause is going to be different for men and women, although Brad hit the core root of it. They drift apart.

When they start to do that, they're in the hard phases of life—kids, careers, just bought a house, busy bills—and they're not prioritizing and protecting their marriage. The emotional needs of a woman are not met, and perhaps emotional in a different way, men not feeling good enough. They start to feel like, "I'm not good enough, no one's noticing, no one's appreciating me." Women are feeling like, "I'm not a priority, I'm not important."

Suddenly, someone says something—typically the opposite sex—that is exactly what's been missing in their marriage. "Man, I hope your wife appreciates you. You sure are a hard worker. You're such a kind, sweet person. You're very pretty. I hope your husband knows that." Now the thoughts start to ruminate. They think about that and how they wish their spouse was doing that.

Also, social media—I'm sure you've noticed social media—someone's connecting with old friends from high school. Someone says, "Oh, have I ever told you I had a mad crush on you? Let's direct message." Suddenly, they're off the main thread and they're direct messaging. Next thing you know, they're going to meet up and it just starts to evolve into that.

That's where their primary thoughts are focused and they're looking forward to somewhere of connecting with that person again. Their focus is no longer on their spouse; it's on somebody else. They're making room in their days and their lives for that connection. It becomes the new priority, the new drug.

Brad Miller: Often times when we're doing the repair and recovery work with a couple, most of the time things come out where there were deficits in their marriage early on. There's been things they've been sweeping under the rug and not dealing with. That was a part of what led up to—not a justification—but that's part of what led up to it.

Also, that's a part of repairing and getting things back on track so that they can be better than they ever were before. If we could help couples realize those things beforehand and never go there, let's do that. But unfortunately, it doesn't often happen that way.

Erin Smalley: Of course, what we all know is that the enormous pain that infidelity leads to. It's a massive recovery process, but it's so possible. As you were talking, Tammy, I was thinking—as you were describing individuals beginning to ruminate and really persevere on the thought of that other person—in some ways, it's described kind of as this fantasy land. How do you describe that to couples? Because it's not based in the reality of everyday life.

Tammy Miller: I'll typically say, "Remember when you were about 16 and you're sitting in the car with a boyfriend or a girlfriend and you're on a date and you dream about all the things that you will be when you grow up one day?" That's kind of what an affair is like. It's that fantasy that you could be anybody, anything, because that person that you're having this either emotional or physical affair with doesn't know that you leave your underwear on the floor, or that you forget to change the toilet paper roll, or that the night before you had vomit all down the front of you from your three-year-old. They don't know those things. Nor do they have to deal with that.

They don't know that you missed an electric bill. They don't know those things. It's just like that teenager, "I will never and I'm going to be." It's this daydream and you're thinking, "Oh, you complete me, you're amazing." That's what they start to come back to—that feeling that used to feel so good, that God intended to be temporary and grow us through the hard stuff. But some people say, "I'm out."

Dr. Greg Smalley: I really like that analogy. When we're talking infidelity, there's obviously emotional affairs and physical affairs. Talk about the difference.

Brad Miller: Men, mostly physical affairs; they're getting a physical need met. One of the tools we use often with couples is Love Languages; it's very helpful. 85% of men, their first or second love language is physical touch. That's something they're seeking after. That's something they very easily notice is missing. It's something they can very easily compartmentalize and say, "I'm going to put that in a box over here and get that need met while I'm still being, I think, a good husband over here."

For women, it's more the emotional need. It's very easy for a man to be caught, to feel very remorseful, genuinely remorseful, and say, "I want to repair this," and he's all in. But the emotional component for a woman is—there's just been a hurricane that ripped through our lives and I don't know which way is up. I don't know what this looks like.

It takes her some time to catch up. Part of our goal for us is, while she's hanging on and we're trying to find a ray of sunshine or hope for her, is we're building some trust and just helping to paint the picture of what that can look like on the other side. In the midst of that, they see that there were problems there to begin with, which then that hope is that this can actually be better than it ever was before. While you wouldn't wish this on anybody, this can actually be better than it was before.

Tammy Miller: The work that you do in the recovery is what makes you better than you ever could have been, not the result of betrayal.

Erin Smalley: That's a good differentiation. I like that. Isn't it just how God says throughout scripture that there's blessings through trials? This is a huge tsunami goes off. As they're traveling through this, it's hard to imagine the blessing that could come from this. But it's awesome to have people walking with those couples to say, "We can have hope."

Brad Miller: We worked with a church couple; they had been married over 50 years. For over half of that, he was involved in an affair with the same woman. Imagine when that bomb dropped. They actually talk about the day the bomb dropped. Imagine in that scenario—she's reeling through 25 years of memories. "Was this a lie? Was that a lie? Was that a lie? What about this?"

There's a lot of damage control there, especially with her, as we're trying to bring her up to speed with what he's known for a long time, give her a chance to heal, love on her really well, and really teach him how to love her like he's never loved her before. For this couple in particular, he did. He learned to serve her and love her like Jesus. He would have said 25 years prior he was still doing that, but now on this side of things, he'd say, "Boy, I was missing a lot." He got rebaptized, renewed their vows. Beautiful.

Erin Smalley: What would you say to a couple you're working with, or someone who's listening, if they say, "I'm having a longing for someone else, someone besides my spouse"? What would you say the first thing is that they should do?

Brad Miller: Because I'm a guy and I can just be to the point sometimes, the first thing I would actually say to them is, "Take out a shotgun and blow off your left foot because that'll be an easier recovery." That being said and off the table, what I really would want to do—and Tammy and I spend a lot of time with couples doing exactly this—is we point them back to God's blueprint for marriage.

God had a purpose and God had a design for marriage. It wasn't by accident. So many times in our culture, we act like this is just a civil construct; it's a way to manage having kids together and we're going to promise to be together and sign the papers. But it's a covenant with God. God had a purpose, God had an intention.

So we love to take them back to that. When we take them back to that, it starts to reframe everything they thought was true or didn't know was true. It really starts to push back against the lies that they've let themselves—the lies that we tell ourselves are the worst lies. Those are the really pernicious lies that tear us up because we're telling ourselves those every day. That's why we only work with Christian couples because they're the only ones that would understand that.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Especially around even relating to the opposite sex. In my mind, it's easy to say, "A physical affair is this." It can be very clear. It seems like an emotional affair is subjective. How do you help someone to really understand maybe when they've crossed that line from relating to the opposite sex into more of an emotional affair?

Brad Miller: For men, while it does start out typically as a physical affair—the chemicals that are firing off during the course of sexual intimacy—it becomes an emotional affair. Dopamine, norepinephrine, serotonin—those things are designed by the Creator to tie us together. So it does become emotional at some point. The interesting thing is for most men, I don't think they realize that. They sort of want to keep that compartmentalized.

It really is bringing some of those elements in. Another way that we do that practically is we'll talk to them about how God intended for those chemicals to bond a husband and a wife together in unity and how used for other purposes, porn or infidelity, it can really take on a whole another meaning and a whole another direction. But God intended those things for good, and that's what we try to direct them back to. And then they see it.

Tammy Miller: Yes, for some men it starts out physical. Or it could be they go to a massage parlor, they go to a strip club, or chat online. How it starts—it becomes emotional at some point because they return again and again and again. It isn't just the physical part of it. There's such a void in couples today. We're all so distracted and we're also lonely because of social media and just our phones in general that we just don't connect and we don't realize what a void there is. Do you guys know the word propinquity?

Dr. Greg Smalley: I don't think I've heard that word, but I couldn't tell you what it means. It was the word of the day for me yesterday. Starting yesterday, yes.

Brad Miller: Propinquity is really this idea, very helpful in this context, that says the more time that we spend with another person, the more we'll find things in common and things that we share. The problem is if I'm spending time with another woman at the office, it's a matter of time before we start to find things that connect us. If Tammy's spending time with another man, even at church or something else, it's a matter of time before they find things in common, and we have to protect ourselves from that.

Erin Smalley: What boundaries do you encourage couples to have to prevent—because, of course, if they're connecting with someone and then they're finding there's more in common, what boundaries do they put in place?

Tammy Miller: Ideally, we encourage couples when it comes to church: serve together. When it comes to working out: find a way to work out together or work out with a male or female partner which is the same sex. Setting those boundaries of "I'm not going to connect or have side conversations with anybody unless my spouse is there."

If you are going to do things outside of home, make sure that you have someone that's holding you accountable, that you go to that asks you hard questions. Brad and I are big fans of mentor couples and mentors in your life. Someone that's going to be asking you, "Hey, how you been in your marriage?" "Oh, I just feel like I can't do anything right." "Well, let's check in. Where do you feel like you're doing things right? Is someone telling you that you're doing things right other than your spouse?" Asking hard questions—that's a great boundary to have so you have a limit line of where you know you are stepping over that line.

Brad Miller: Here's a great example of what Tammy was just saying. We were youth pastors in the church and we're wrestling with some of those same boundaries. Like so many other youth ministries, we had a 15-passenger van and we're picking up kids and dropping them off and doing all of the things.

Because it made the most practical sense to drop off a couple of girls at the end of the night because they were closest to our home, Tammy said one day, "Hey, what happens if there's a sexual-related problem with one of the girls that you dropped off?" I said, "Goodness, I would never do that." And she said, "No, what if one of them claim there's a problem?"

It just took my breath away because it was an area where in my own confidence I had sort of let my guard down. If there was even a claim that something had happened by the youth pastor to a high school girl, we would have been done. All of the effectiveness that we had for the kingdom at that point, we would have been done. Back to the boundaries question: for me, that allowed me to see five steps ahead and say, "Where could this possibly go? No, no, no, no. We don't want that. That's not going to happen."

Dr. Greg Smalley: What I love that you're saying is that you accepted Tammy's influence. It would have been easy, and I know as a husband, it's easy for me to then try to argue against what Erin is sensing—her gut, her concern. "That would never happen. That's crazy. No way."

But there's power in really being willing to lean into our wives' gut, that feeling, that cautiousness. I always tell Erin, "I may not always understand or even agree, but you guys have been married 41 years, we've been married 34 years, and I trust it enough to always want to lean in and accept her influence." As you guys are working then with couples recovering from an affair, what are some of those other important things that you're teaching them? What does that recovery look like?

Brad Miller: I love the way you phrased that question and learning to trust each other. We talk a lot about how God intended marriage to take two individual "me's" and turn them into a unified "we." That's a lot of work and we have a lifetime to do it. It takes a lot of time.

One of the ways I like to explain that is God made Tammy's brain different than mine. One of the ways that he made her different than me is she, like most women, is able to engage emotionally; they have a discernment that men don't have. For a long time, that bothered me. It felt like a challenge to what I knew on my inside. But there was a point where I said, "Wait a minute. I don't have that discernment and I don't always understand it, but it feels like a superpower. It feels like something where I can take advantage of this superpower that she's got and learn to trust her discernment." I would encourage couples to do the same.

One time, a high school friend had asked me to get together. She found some old pictures of us and just wanted to get together and give me copies of the pictures. Me, I just thought, "No big deal. That'll be fine." And Tammy said, "I don't know. My radar's going off here." Just like you said, Greg, my first thought was, "Oh, what do you mean you don't trust me?" And then I thought, "Wait a minute. There's that superpower. And I get to choose: do I listen to it or do I blow it off? I'm going to listen to it." We teach couples the same thing. There is a superpower there, there is a strength in your "we," learn to tap into that with each other and trust each other.

Tammy Miller: Brad and I will start with saying, "The problems you're having today started before you ever met." Something that Brad and I have really coined in our approach with couples is we'll say we want to do what we call a University of Life and Relationships. We'll say each one of us are born into this university called Life, and then the professors that teach us everything about relationships are those who raise us, those who have big influences upon us.

Usually they struggle, like, "This has nothing to do with the affair." "Oh yes, it does." And so you discover roots to it. You discover roots, and when they become aware of poor coping, no idea how to resolve conflict, poor communication, never really learned physical affection, maybe they never even had an intact family—they don't know how to do this. And so that empowers them to say, "I know where this comes from and I need to unlearn it and learn something different," which seems to be a turning point. Even though they resist us doing this, it's the most impactful point of their journey in recovery.

Erin Smalley: How would you encourage a couple that an affair has just been revealed? They just had Revelation Day. What steps do they need to take immediately?

Brad Miller: Get professional help. One of the things Tammy and I often say is don't make life-changing decisions in the middle of a crisis, and that is a crisis. Getting professional help is somebody who can say, "Let's slow down. Let's walk through this one step at a time. We're going to figure this out together. It's going to take some time, but we're going to do it." But you've got to get professional help.

Tammy Miller: I would add something that you don't do: go announce it on Facebook, call every family member, call every friend out of revenge, especially for the one who was betrayed. Please don't do that. Many times we don't catch them until after the fact, which we can still get you to recover—there's more repair work to do—but reach out to somebody.

Professional help is always a good idea. Make sure who you're reaching out to knows how to do this work; that's pretty important. Then also have somebody that loves the two of you and is for your marriage, not picking a side, that is also supporting you on the journey and hopefully it's not your parents. It needs to be someone on the outside.

But it's revealed, everybody's hemorrhaging, you both are in intensive care unit, neither one of you know how to take care of each other. And especially for the spouse that was betrayed, there's a whole another component—the trauma brain component of all of it that needs to be cared for.

Dr. Greg Smalley: To give people listening hope, what have you seen as far as a timeline?

Tammy Miller: Thinking about committing consistently with whoever you're working with in this journey is important because there's a lot of repair work in the beginning, then there's a lot of patterns to identify and begin to change. In the beginning we'll say, "We need your commitment."

If you're doing the work, you'll start to feel some of that hope and that shift and a little glimpse of that transformation that we're looking for—brand new husband and wife. You'll start to see that somewhere between four to six months, but it's really hard those first few months. Then after the consistent work for at least six months, if they're doing the work and there's some transformation, maybe they're not coming in and seeing us as often.

Then the next six months it's—we're still doing a lot of identifying family patterns and patterns in their marriage and just becoming more self-aware. Really, the triggers, the intrusive thoughts, all those fears, it takes about two years for you to have full management over them.

I can't change the fact that your marriage has an injury, but I sure can tell you that you're going to be able to work right through that injury over time. Sometimes when you feel that pain—kind of like if you had a severe knee injury and when it's just cold enough you're reminded, but other times you're out hiking and you don't even know it—it's like that in your marriage. You'll all of a sudden feel that injury and at some point you'll grab each other's hand and you remind yourselves, "We are on the other side. Your marriage is more affair-proof than anybody you know because you've uncovered every possibility, every weakness. You've done the work; you're stronger than ever."

Brad Miller: Because of all of that, anniversaries are very important to us. We very intentionally, couples we've worked with even years past, will reach out to them on their anniversaries and just say, "Pulling for you today, thinking about you today, celebrating you today."

We never want them to miss that opportunity to celebrate how far they've come. It's just a great way for us to stay connected with them to hear their stories of ongoing transformation. It's one thing for us to have walked with them for two years and go through all of that together with them, but three, four, five years later we're still hearing the stories of how they're doing together. That really is all the payment that we need.

Dr. Greg Smalley: The work you guys are doing is just phenomenal. We would all love to be worked out of a job as far as hurting marriages and marriages in crisis and those who've gone through infidelity. We're so grateful that you guys are doing this.

Brad Miller: There was actually 13 divorces between both families. Tammy and I are the only ones who stayed married. It doesn't mean we're amazing people; it means we're stubborn and we just refuse to give up.

That's our motivation. We've seen the destruction and the devastation from dysfunctional broken families. We've seen it all around us. And we said we're not going to do it. We're going to do something different and we know God had a plan and a purpose for marriage. We know there's got to be a way off of that track that we were on, which was the same thing that we knew with our families. We found it and we show others how to find it too. If we can do it, you can do it.

Dr. Greg Smalley: I so appreciate Brad and Tammy and just their wisdom, their passion for helping couples at a very dark time in their marriage.

Erin Smalley: You could see their passion as they talked about helping couples get to this new relationship and the beauty of the new connection that can come after an affair. The most devastating thing, how in the world do you then end up walking—and they said it can be up to two years. I've heard one to three years and then land at a beautiful place with your spouse.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Part of that journey of reconciling and working through something like infidelity, it's important to be able to identify for you as a couple what led us here. Brad and Tammy talked about several, but what do you see? And then how do we protect against those very specific reasons why couples get into an affair?

Erin Smalley: I'd say number one: an emotional disconnection. Tammy and Brad kind of talked about the drift. I would say that couples who've drifted emotionally and don't feel seen and known within the relationship, sometimes that can be an influencing factor.

Granted, none of these things make it okay for someone to act out of their marriage. That is a choice regardless of what's going on in the marriage. It's sin to act out of God's design for marriage. I'm not saying emotional disconnection is justified. It is not justified. But what we see is that often couples report prior to an affair that they were emotionally disconnected.

So in order to protect your relationship, consistently investing emotionally in your spouse and in that emotional connection. Things like we talk a lot about, ten minutes a day of just checking in at that deeper level. How are you doing? What's going on? How are you feeling? What are you fearing? What are you looking forward to? Just checking in at that deeper level because couples who feel genuinely known and safe with each other close that door to an affair.

Dr. Greg Smalley: You texted me this morning. We had a busy weekend, we were away doing an event. You texted me this morning just a simple, "How are you feeling?" Which is basically doing what you're saying to do. But it's funny, that was a very intimidating question for me. I saw it and I just remember going, "I don't know," and I sat back in my chair and thought, "How am I feeling?"

Erin Smalley: I'm glad I could help you with that.

Dr. Greg Smalley: It was just interesting how I had to get myself into a space of going, "How am I doing?" I do feel a little overwhelmed. I do feel tired. That was very emotionally draining, just the travel, where we were, we went through a big thunderstorm. It's easy for us to say, "Hey, just talk about emotions and have that connection between the two of you." I'm just saying for me, you think I'd be better at this. Seeing your text was great. I so appreciated that you cared enough about me to ask me how I was doing. But a willingness to really work at that and take the time to create that sort of internal space to go to that place.

What stands out to you as far as why affairs happen?

Dr. Greg Smalley: Brad kind of touched on this, but the whole validation. I notice that—and we've talked about this many times before but it's so true—that women seem to be so validating of one another. I always laugh and I'm tickled and I'm amazed when I see you with other women and you greet each other; you validate each other like at six different levels. "Hey, that's a new haircut, I love that. The color, boy, that's beautiful. I haven't seen that blouse, that particular whatever you're wearing, that outfit. Is that new? Where'd you get that? I love that." As guys we just don't do that.

And yet that can be such an important thing for someone. It's just a great reminder for me that I don't want to reach a place in my life to where you don't feel validated by me. I want to be expressing gratitude and noticing your hair and your outfits and things like that that I don't necessarily often pay attention to. But it is important that we do that for each other. But if that's my only source of validation is hearing that from you, I'm in trouble because I'm a big believer that as individuals, how are we doing that between ourselves and the Lord? We're not taught to do that. "How am I validating me?"

Erin Smalley: Yeah, because people believe that it's selfish, that it's self-focused, versus it's a gift that we can give ourselves so we're not—I've used the term I was like a Hoover vacuum cleaner trying to find validation and suck it right up so I felt better and people sense that as well. Then one day I realized, "Why am I looking to everybody else? I can give myself that." And it was a game changer.

Working with couples post-infidelity, something that I hear a lot about—couples will report that their sexual relationship has drifted and that they're not pursuing sexual connection like they once did. Couples will often deprioritize sex for whatever reason—stress, or they're not being connected, or they're busy, they've got small kids, medical issues, they're older—but it just really is important to continue to pursue sexual connection and to pursue sex.

So I would encourage couples to just evaluate. How are we doing in this season? If it's not going well or not the way that we had hoped, and really it's asking each other, "How did we hope this our sexual relationship would look right now in this season of our life, and what do we do to work towards that?" And then we can work at it together because this does matter and it impacts a marriage.

Dr. Greg Smalley: We would encourage you guys to have this sort of conversation. Remember, there's big reasons why people engage in infidelity. We've mentioned emotional disconnection, poor communication, unmet need for validation, unresolved anger and resentment, low commitment, lack of clear boundaries.

For some it's a desire for novelty, more excitement, a loss of integrity, stress without really knowing how to cope with that stress. Maybe it's an absence of shared faith. So if you guys just take those, walk through some of those, and talk about how in that area of vulnerability are we really being intentional to protect our relationship. Then let us know how that conversation goes. We'd love to hear what you guys learned and some ways that you're protecting your relationship.

Erin Smalley: And if your marriage is facing deep hurt, conflict or hopelessness, you do not have to walk through it alone. We have a great resource that will absolutely help you and your spouse if your marriage has faced infidelity or to fight against it. It's a book called *The Anatomy of an Affair* by Dave Carder.

It walks the readers through how attractions lead to affairs, ways that you may be vulnerable, and how to restore intimacy in marriage after an affair. Dave shares eye-opening stories, clinical insights, and the book reveals what couples learn walking through this difficult thing. This book is yours for a gift of any amount and we'll have a link to it in our show notes.

Dr. Greg Smalley: And don't forget Brad and Tammy talked a lot about reaching out for professional help. In Focus on the Family, we have an amazing program called Hope Restored. This is a marriage intensive. Our counselors are trained to help couples know how to navigate through an affair. So please reach out, we'll put the link in the show notes. God has used this program in countless ways with countless couples who have faced infidelity.

Erin Smalley: Sweeping, doing the dishes, doing the laundry, making the bed. I'm not sure about you guys, but chores can feel almost unending.

Dr. Greg Smalley: You're causing anxiety for me just mentioning those few alone.

Erin Smalley: I did make the bed today.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Did you really? All right. See, but that's your thing. You love doing that. But when you're traveling and I'm home, that bed is never made. I do that for you. Look at the depth of my love and care for you.

Erin Smalley: We've even mentioned in other episodes that household chores are among the most frequent sources of arguments in marriage. Did you know that?

Dr. Greg Smalley: I do now through practice.

Erin Smalley: Before we get to the fun stuff, let's talk about what's really going on underneath these arguments. Greg, when it comes to chores in our marriage, what's one that tends to create friction for you or leaves you feeling like things aren't quite even? It feels unfair.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Usually it comes down to cleaning a particular area. Let's take the bathroom, for example. I think your idea of what it requires to make the bathroom "clean" is a little different than mine. I'll go through and clean and then you might inspect or you might be in there going, "Wait. Okay, now I got to clean the bathroom." And I'll see you cleaning something I've cleaned.

That can trigger me because then I feel failed. I feel like I'm not good enough, I don't measure up to your astronomically high standard. But because we define clean, cleanliness, a little differently when it comes to some of the rooms in our house, that can be a little irritating. What about for you?

Erin Smalley: I would say clutter, because we have different thresholds—meaning what? Often I will see a mess and you'll be like, "No, it's cleaned up. I stacked it all right over there." But then there's a mess over there and I'm like, "Why don't we just clean it up?"

Dr. Greg Smalley: But you're right. There are things that are important to me. Like you like to keep your car washed. You do the weekly car wash thing. I never do that because I care more about what it looks like inside.

Erin Smalley: It looks terrible inside.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Mine car? No.

Erin Smalley: Yes, your car.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Okay, we are—I'm taking pictures of the inside of my car and Erin's car and we're going to post them and you guys are going to vote on whose car is actually cleaner. In fact, do this: go to Strengthening Marriages Focus on the Family; it's a Facebook private group, so you have to register to be a part of this.

But that would be the perfect place for us to post these pictures. You can vote on it. And when you choose that my car is obviously the cleanest inside, then I will comment on how awesome you are for voting for me.

Erin Smalley: I don't know what they're going to see, but all I know is I pulled the Facebook page up and now I'm scrolling.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Let's actually give a fun way to divide up the housework that actually works.

Erin Smalley: You could separate chores out by preference. One likes to mop, one likes to vacuum.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Perhaps a better example, because I would like to do neither of those. You could do it where you're all in together. Like, "Hey, we just cooked, now let's clean." So someone washes the dishes, the other one dries it or loads it.

Erin Smalley: And then you could have a deep emotional conversation as you're washing and drying. You're there together, why not use it for your High and Low game time? What about zones? One takes bathrooms, the other takes the bedrooms.

Dr. Greg Smalley: And the next one: kind of a chore jar. You kind of do this with your couples, right?

Erin Smalley: Well, I tell them to write out the necessary chores on index cards and then to kind of lay them out because I think what's valuable is for everybody to be aware of what do we need to get done here. Because sometimes it's one person doing it all and the other person has no idea what's needing to be done.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Another way then to do this once you get them all laid out: kind of hold a draft to where you go back and forth—one person chooses first, then the other—until you get those all divided out.

Erin Smalley: Or here's an idea: take those cards and put them up on the wall and throw darts, and whichever one you hit, you take.

Dr. Greg Smalley: What if you accidentally—I know you wouldn't do it on purpose—but what if you hit me with one of those darts accidentally? The whole point is just have fun with this. You could do rock-paper-scissors; we love to do that. Do it around the final two that are left and just have some fun with it. That's the point. Try these.

Go to Strengthening Marriages Focus on the Family; let us know, take a picture, tell us which chore you took, your spouse took. Let's just have some fun with that together and we'll share a lot of really cool ideas and then we all know we're in this together.

Dr. Greg Smalley: All right, it's Q&A time and today's Q&A is really spot on with today's topic around infidelity.

Erin Smalley: A listener sent us an email and this is what he had to say: "What can I do to improve my marriage when 14 years after cheating on my wife, the issue still comes up repeatedly despite her saying she forgave me five years ago? I've worked hard to be a better husband—showing love, meeting her needs, and staying committed.

But during conflict she often compares me to who I was back then, making it feel like my progress gets reset. I'm starting to feel like I can't express my own frustrations without it being tied back to my past, which leaves me feeling trapped and disconnected. We have three kids, we've invested in marriage events, and still share good moments.

But the past keeps resurfacing. At the same time, I feel like my own needs, especially physical intimacy, aren't being met and attempts to discuss it lead to more conflict. How can we move forward in a healthy way when I feel like I'm constantly trying to repay a debt that never ends?"

Dr. Greg Smalley: They're both carrying such heavy things here. For him, the weight of a past failure. For her, a wound that didn't fully close. We've heard this time and time again—that she keeps bringing something up, or he keeps bringing up something that happened years and years and years ago that I thought we were over. "I thought you forgave me. You told me you forgave me."

Here's what I'd encourage you first and foremost: to notice that it really you don't have to continue to prove that you've changed. Instead, really lean in in those moments and be curious because her bringing this stuff up again has nothing to do with whether you have changed or not. It's that in this moment, we guarantee you, the deeper issue under the waterline, if you could pull back the curtain of what's going on, is fear.

Her fear has been triggered in this moment. So there's nothing that you're going to say if you're speaking to her brain that's going to convince her heart of anything. And that's why in these moments, how can you instead of trying to prove that I'm changed, really lean in and just go, "Boy, I can see some stuff has come up for you. Tell me about this."

Erin Smalley: If it's coming up during conflict and it's spiraling and the cycles taking up, I'd call a timeout and say, "Hey, I really want to hear more about this, but I'm going to step away for a moment to de-escalate it." Then come back to it and say, "Hey, I want to understand. You brought up the affair during conflict today and I want to understand why it came up. What was going on? What brought it to your mind? What were you feeling? What were you fearing? What were you wanting in that moment?"

Because the way I look at it, it's an unhealed attachment injury and those things come up—our heart brings them up over and over again to protect us. When we don't feel safe or when our fear gets triggered, it's fight or flight. God put that mechanism in us to protect us. So when it's coming up, view that as an opportunity to lean in, to really try to understand. Anytime the affair comes up, I would switch to really being curious. It's coming up right now. Tell me what's going on.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Sometimes too when you and I are in conflict, you might say something about me in frustration that I then almost give you the power to decide what's true about me. You are not my source of truth. I'm not marginalizing or minimizing how you're feeling or what you're thinking—all that's important—but to give you that place of what is true about me in that moment only leads to me arguing.

Now I'm going to debate you. Now I'm going to convince you. Now I'm going to shift into that sort of posture versus just spending some time with the Lord saying, "God, first and foremost, what is true?" It strengthens your heart around what is true to then go back from a place of openness to go, "Yeah, now I'm able to be curious because I'm open. Tell me what's going on. What's happening?"

Erin Smalley: Approach her because when you're open, you'll be able to be curious, but also be soft, be gentle, be reassuring that, "Hey, we're in this together. I blew it 14 years ago and I want you to know I'm here with you and committed to working this out with you. But I really want to understand." It all is like healing salve to her heart. And continue to do that.

Because often times we think when someone says, "I forgive you," that thus the relationship is back to "good, we're good." But actually, the pain is still there and the injury is still there. Ultimately, I want to encourage you: Hope Restored would be such a great program for you guys to attend. It's our marriage intensive program.

Couples go there who are stuck or in crisis. It sounds like you guys are stuck. Check out hoperestored.com or call us at 1-800-A-FAMILY to get a recommendation for a Christian licensed counselor in your area because it would be worth going in just to revisit this topic of infidelity and really dig deeper to understand why is it coming up in these moments.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Thanks for giving us insight into your marriage and the courage to allow us to walk with you in that. We take that very seriously. We are so honored that you're doing that. Of course, look out for your copy of our book, *Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage*.

Well, thanks for joining us on Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage.

Erin Smalley: Yes, thank you for following the show and sharing it with your friends and family. We want you to have a seat at the table every week as we help equip you and your spouse to have a lifelong satisfying marriage.

Dr. Greg Smalley: We want to see you guys growing closer to the Lord as individuals and together as a couple.

Erin Smalley: So you can turn right around and invest in other couples to help them build thriving marriages.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Well, thanks for listening. We'll talk to you again next Monday about this crazy little thing called marriage.