Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage

Josh: I experienced a traumatic childhood, and today I want to help other families thrive. I've partnered with Focus on the Family for quite some time now because they were instrumental to hope, to help, and to healing.

Jim Daly: I'm Jim Daly. Let's transform our nation one family at a time with your monthly pledge at focusonthefamily.com/joy.

Erin Smalley: Welcome to *Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage*. I'm Erin Smalley.

Dr. Greg Smalley: And I am her beautiful husband, Dr. Greg Smalley.

Erin Smalley: Beautiful? How about my handsome husband, Dr. Greg Smalley.

Dr. Greg Smalley: All right. Well, I tell you, like Erin and I, if you've been married for any length of time, you know that you and your spouse are two very different people, oftentimes with two very different opinions. For example, for us, and I noticed this yesterday, by the way, as you left to go somewhere with some friends or you did something, but I just noticed that every single light on in our living room and kitchen area was on, and you were nowhere to be found.

Erin Smalley: Not every light. I was coming back.

Dr. Greg Smalley: It probably wasn't every light, and I was coming back. I should've taken a picture because I could post it and allow people to see that I'm very right. But again, lights, morning person, late night.

Erin Smalley: You get up so early.

Dr. Greg Smalley: I do. I love doing that.

Erin Smalley: And I don't sleep in late, but I definitely don't get up at 4:35 in the morning like you do. And so I have been making the bed a whole lot again, which is your job.

Dr. Greg Smalley: I'm fine to make it with you in it, or I could make my side of it. I just feel like I'd wake you up while you are sleeping. But there are those differences that we naturally have. And obviously, much like for us with the lights, these differences can clash, and at times can cause tension in the household.

And that's why today we're going to be talking about how to recognize these triggering moments and we're going to give you some tips on what to do when they happen.

Erin Smalley: We're also going to take a quick look at personality types and give you an opportunity to discover your temperament. Then we're going to answer a listener's email question about what to do and how to support a spouse who's been diagnosed with depression. We've got a great show today, a lot of wonderful information coming your way right after this.

Our guest today is Amber Lia. She's a former English teacher turned work-at-home mom, blogger, author, and speaker. She's raising four sons, bless her, with her husband, Guy. She's written several books on exchanging unhealthy patterns for God-honoring ones. Today, we're going to talk about what we can do about anger in marriage. Amber, welcome to *Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage*.

Amber Lia: Well, thank you both for having me. I've been looking forward to this conversation. It's going to be great.

Erin Smalley: Likewise. Amber, you wrote a devotional called *Untriggered: 60 Days of Transformation for Moms Who Struggle with Anger*. I may take this home with me.

Dr. Greg Smalley: So I can find it on my pillow? Is that what it is?

Erin Smalley: I don't know. There've been some moments as of late. We have an 18-year-old who's heading to college in the fall, and there's great opportunities to practice anger management.

Amber Lia: That's right. And you know, listen, I hate that I have to write books from my own personal experience. It just tells you a lot about me. I've got my triggers and I want to let God do His thing in my heart and in my life. I'm thankful that I get to hopefully pay a little bit of that forward to all the other triggered moms that are out there, and dads, because there are many of them. I talk to them frequently, including myself.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Erin and I always laugh because of the verse in 1 Corinthians 7:28 that talks about, "Hey, for those who marry, you will face hard times." Now, like you, it sounds like for Erin and I, we didn't realize how quickly those hard times were going to happen, which happened on our honeymoon. But it sounds like though for you guys, it was kind of the same thing. Pretty early on, you guys started off on the wrong foot. Tell us about what was going on in those early years of your marriage.

Amber Lia: Unfortunately, that's true. Guy and I felt like we were triggered from the start. We had all these wonderful ideas and images about how we were going to live our lives together finally coming together as two very different people.

We were both a little bit on the older side when we got married, so we were a little stuck in our ways and had expectations. In true form, it started to play out. I know that we have to work out our salvation, but there is a sanctifying process. We just didn't realize marriage was going to be that sanctifier so quickly for us.

And so we had a lot of anger. We had a lot of conflict. A lot of it was miscommunication. And then also, we just had a lot of stress early on that I think a lot of people can relate to: job changes, pregnancy right away, having a baby, a lot of life change. We just did not handle it well.

Dr. Greg Smalley: You talked about walking into your marriage, we all had expectations. Looking back, what were some of the big ones, the expectations that you had, that you pretty quickly realized, "Oh my goodness, I'm not sure if this is realistic or not."

Amber Lia: For Guy and I, I would say that it was definitely the expectation of how we were going to divide our time. He worked really long hours and I had a schoolteacher schedule. So I came home, and I thought he was going to make it a priority to come home a little bit earlier so that we could spend time together.

And then the day would get longer. I'm done by about 3:30 or 4:00 with my teaching schedule, and he's not leaving the office until 7:00 and then he's got an hour-long commute. And so just the misunderstanding of how the responsibilities of our lives were going to match up and the time that it would take for that, and then the expectation of the pressure that he was under with his work life, and then me wanting him to be home on time for dinner.

That was one of the early ones, just seeing our lives not come together in the way that I thought that they would, that we would be there for one another. And the amount of effort that I perceived he was or was not putting into giving me attention, that was one of my uninformed and not communicated expectations that caused a lot of strife.

It took us a while to even be able to figure out what was going on. We didn't immediately have that light bulb moment like, "Oh, this is just a conflict in not understanding each other's priorities. It doesn't mean that we don't care about each other. Schedules are real life. And so let's come together and talk about this in a healthy way." We just let that frustration build, and then it came out in ways that were not healthy.

Erin Smalley: And it led you guys to even wondering, "Did we marry the wrong person?" Tell us about how you managed that. How did you come back from that? How did you recover?

Amber Lia: It was really the Lord. One thing that I committed to was crying out to the Lord and just saying, "God, this doesn't feel like we're aligned. We're not on the same page. Did I marry Mr. Wrong? I'm pretty sure he married Miss All Wrong because I knew that I had my own weaknesses and faults."

And so I just wondered, like, "We just made this big commitment, what do we do now if we're so mismatched and we're not aligned?" God was very tender to remind me that He was in our marriage. Really the moment that we said "I do," we were a match made in heaven even if it didn't seem like it here on Earth, because God was in the center of that and He had brought us together.

And so He did not want anything to tear that apart. And so I just prayed every day that when I thought about the marriage verses and when I thought about measuring Guy as that standard, those verses were really a gauge for me, not for Guy. Not for me to use as a weapon against him, but really to take to heart myself.

It required me laying down my pride, Guy laying down his pride, going to humility and saying, "Okay, Lord, we trust You. We are a match made in heaven because You've brought us together. And so now we need to look at those verses on loving one another well and sacrificially being there for one another and meeting each other with loving-kindness and the fruit of the Spirit." That's for me to internalize, not for me to look at and then judge my husband by. That's really where the Lord began to turn things around.

Erin Smalley: Isn't it just so true though, in those moments when it's hard, it's easier to focus on our spouse. I know I want to talk about Greg, not myself. So I admire that you turned that and began to evaluate what you could do to influence the marriage.

Dr. Greg Smalley: And it's good because I appreciate what you're saying. I think a lot of couples do weaponize these verses. What a powerful insight that you began to have is going, "Yeah, I'm starting to use some of these verses against him or at least, this is how I think that should play out." Is there a verse in particular that really stands out to you that you were like, "Oh yeah, man, I was totally using that against Guy."

Amber Lia: And now it's a treasured verse for us. But it wasn't always and it's Mark 10:45. It says, "For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many." And I would look at that and be like, "He's not doing that for me. He's not serving. What the heck?"

And I had to go, "Wait a minute, Amber, this is for you to apply and to internalize." Like, how can you serve him? If we can't live a selfless life, then we're really not utilizing that spiritual DNA of Jesus. Jesus came as a servant, that's our spiritual DNA, that servant-hearted humility.

And I had to really consider, reconsider, and repent from using that verse as a gauge for my husband instead of a standard for myself.

Dr. Greg Smalley: That is so good because you're right. Whether we look at the service verse, the sacrifice verse, even we hear a lot from couples in 1 Corinthians where it's talking about, "Well, your body's not your own body, your body is your spouse's." How that's often used. So we do this and it's just a great reminder that instead of how is Erin applying this particular verse, that you're right on that this is for me to bring before the Lord to say, "God, how do I need to grow in this area?" I imagine that created the change that you were talking about.

Amber Lia: I think that when one person starts to soften, you can kind of see the shoulders drop and the anger recede. It breaks down the wall in your spouse, hopefully, too. Sometimes it's just a matter of who's going to be the first one to yield to the Holy Spirit. It doesn't really matter. I want it to more quickly be me because that is what is going to allow us to bring together that healing and to come together again instead of building those walls.

Erin Smalley: There's something about feeling safe, and feeling safe relationally is so key because it allows us to engage and to be open. And when hearts are open, all bets are off.

Dr. Greg Smalley: You talked about the triggers that create a lot of the conflict that we're going through. Certainly one of those big triggers are the chore wars. I know you talked a lot about that, whether that's the statement, "This house is a mess," or whatever. How do you see the chore wars really playing out for couples?

Amber Lia: This is one of the areas where we have seen, it was true for us, we think it's true for many, where there are these ideas that we come into marriage or even we develop throughout the marriage where this should be this person's responsibility and not mine.

And I think that there is a lot of our culture that plays into this, that there are certain things that women do and certain things that men do. And that's not always true for every couple, that every couple wants it to play out like that or it should. I'm really thankful that Guy was naturally a really hands-on dad. Not every father is that way.

But I think it's really going out of our way to have healthy communication and conversations about what may be troubling us or where we think responsibility isn't being handled well. I really like to think of Guy and I as a team. We are equals as far as our value. We may have different skill sets and different opportunities at different stages of our marriage, but we're really equal.

We want to love each other and serve each other well. And so what can that look like? Is there a season? There have actually been seasons where Guy has had to do a little bit more of the cooking. He loves to cook, but I would generally do a lot of it. And there have been other times when I've needed him to help me out a little bit more around the house because I'm traveling or I'm doing some speaking or I'm in a really intense writing season.

We have to really communicate and decide, are we going to hold rigidly to what our culture says or what our background and the way we were raised is the pattern? Is that what's going to be our standard or are we going to really soften and think about what makes sense for us?

And if it's not working, then it's not working. We've got to come up with a better plan. And so just being willing to open your heart and mind up to pivoting and loving your spouse well by being willing to do some of the responsibilities that maybe you haven't done for a while to ease the burden of your spouse, I think is a blessing to them.

Dr. Greg Smalley: I think one of the best things that I've learned about this whole chore war and exactly what you're talking about, like how do we sit down if someone is feeling like, "Hey, I'm carrying too much" or whatever, having that conversation. I think one of the things that I never really understood though is the mental load that often goes along with a lot of the tasks and the responsibilities that women carry.

Amber Lia: I'm so glad you asked this because I also call it the mental load and the responsibility pressure. And it's invisible a lot of the time. It's invisible and you don't really know how to measure it because it's invisible, but we can feel the weight of it, especially on women.

So for example, if my child has a birthday party to go to and we decide that my husband Guy is going to handle that, that means I'm expecting him to really handle it. He's going to get the gift and he's going to make sure the card is in place and get it to the party with the child.

It doesn't mean that I have the gift ready for you and I'll wrap it and you just need to take it to the party when you go drop our child off. Because otherwise, the responsibility pressure of it, the mental pressure of that responsibility is still on me. When we divide and conquer, I need to be able to fully believe and trust that he's going to execute from top to bottom whatever that chore responsibility is.

Otherwise, it's still playing in my head and in my mind. I always say, if you want something done, just involve a mom because she knows how to get all the dots and all the things from start to finish and get it accomplished. And it's not that men don't, but we tend to think 360. We look at all the things in an integrated way.

I think that the key is to really just have always the mindset of going the extra mile. If someone asks you to go one mile with them, go with them two. And so if as a husband you can just take on this attitude that I'm always going to try to go the extra mile. And sometimes that's just the question, is there anything else about this that you would like me to know or to do?

I want to take it off of your shoulders completely so you don't have to think about it. Is there anything you think I might miss? Once you tell me, then I want it out of your mind and you can trust me with it. So just even that little bit of communication, and when you notice things, just being more aware.

It's so appreciative on my part when I have put together the graduation announcement and I've done the decorations, even if he didn't participate in it much, to come and acknowledge it and say, "Look, I'm aware that you did this and it's meaningful to me. And I would not have been able to execute it like you have, and it's not lost on me and I appreciate it."

Erin Smalley: I was just thinking about what are those areas that I used to worry about with you. And when I would hand something off and worry, "Is he going to do it? Is he going to follow through?" I was just thinking about, I don't worry anymore when you say you're going to take dinner.

I used to think, "I need to send him recipes and ideas," and you know, "Is he actually going to do it or am I going to walk in the door at 7:00 and nothing's going to be going?" But now I have, and you know, then there was that little question, "Is it going to be good?"

Dr. Greg Smalley: Is that a fair question?

Erin Smalley: Yes! Now I walked in the other night and I was like, "Oh my word, I didn't have to think about anything because he took it fully and owned it, executed it, and it was great."

Dr. Greg Smalley: Parmesan-crusted salmon fillets.

Amber Lia: Wow, you up-did that. That's the second mile right there. That's going beyond expectations.

Dr. Greg Smalley: I'm joking. I wish. I'm not at that level.

Erin Smalley: You made something that was really good. Oh, you made tacos.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Oh, yeah. There we go. Taco bowls.

Erin Smalley: It was great, taco bowls.

Amber Lia: Listen, tacos always win. Let me tell you, tacos are always a winner. Can never go wrong with that.

Erin Smalley: So I'm so glad there's something else I'm so glad we're going to talk about, and that is backseat driving.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Yes, I'm thrilled we're going to talk about this.

Erin Smalley: Me too, me too, because I do know that couples struggle with driving expectations and differences, and it seems just like it is a minefield for conflict. Tell us what you say about backseat driving.

Amber Lia: Again, sadly, this comes from deep and long-standing personal experience. Guy and I, to this day, I will be honest, it takes a lot of effort on my part to not be a backseat driver. I confess, I'm that backseat driver. And yet I still always want Guy to drive.

And yet I have this tendency to just be a little fearful or controlling. And I know it. I confess, there's a lot of healing in confession, so here you are. It just starts to undermine the unity that God wants you to have.

So we kind of think, "Oh, this is sort of a funny topic," but if that tension and stress is pretty consistent, even if it's just on a weekend when you're driving together, it just can be so afflicting in the bonding that you're trying to make and the peace that you're trying to have as a couple.

Proverbs 13:10 says, "Where there is strife, there is pride, but wisdom is found in those who take advice." So this is advice to myself as the backseat driver. Amber, don't think that you have to tell him what to do. I have learned to turn my attention to more productive things.

Does he want me to be a wingman? Okay, if he does, can I actually do something else that's helpful while I'm in the car, manning the podcast or running the music playlist or something of that nature? And really just allowing myself to relax and enjoy the process that my husband is doing the driving and this is one thing I don't need to be responsible for right now.

And teaching myself to just hold my tongue and give him the freedom to do what he's going to do. I need to just work on being the passenger, he is the driver. He can work on being the driver. Again, it just takes really thinking of the other person more than you're thinking of your own immediate impulse or need.

Erin Smalley: Well, and you think about what's driving that for most people. Most people in the backseat are feeling pretty anxious or out of control, kind of like you're saying, "I want to take control." Unsafe. Yes. And I do know there's conversations we've had that are more productive. Usually, it's not in the car, but if there's something that's happening that I am consistently seeing that I'm feeling unsafe, sharing it at a different time than in the middle of the moment tends to go a little bit better.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Because I think, Amber, what you're talking about is that part of that discussion is going, "Okay, what's really going on?" So if someone is really feeling unsafe and they're making the backseat comments, the real issue is "I'm really not feeling safe right now." If you're making those kinds of backseat comments, then I'm hearing it as I'm incompetent or I'm failing as a driver, like I'm not doing it quite right.

And so that's a very different conversation when we're able to talk about what's really going on. I know for me, like what's helped for me is if you're questioning something or making a backseat driving sort of comment, just saying it sounds like this is scaring you, that you're feeling afraid, you're not feeling safe for whatever reason.

Not taking that personally, but at the end of the day, I think what's fair is if you genuinely aren't feeling safe, if you're feeling afraid, if you're feeling fearful, that it's okay for me to back off or whatever it is that you were hoping for. Like legitimately, that's okay if you're not feeling safe.

Erin Smalley: Yeah, there's something so powerful about saying, "I hear you," and acknowledging that your concern, "Yes, that I'm with you, that we're in this with you, that we're going to get through this together." All those things just breed safety versus telling you, "Well, just close your eyes." We did have an experience that we had to work through after the fact. You're like, "You're too close, you're too close." And I finally was like, "Just close your eyes and you won't even notice my driving."

Dr. Greg Smalley: That didn't go well. No.

Erin Smalley: No, unfortunately. Not a good solution. What about for that spouse, whether it's backseat driving, whether it's "I need to bring something up," and the other spouse has a propensity towards anger.

And so the other spouse will be like, "I'm not going to say anything because he gets angry or she gets angry," so I'm just going to hold it inside. Of course, then resentment begins to build. What advice do you have for that individual who's facing a spouse that's just angry?

Amber Lia: Well, Proverbs talks a lot about the foolish person versus the wise person, and that it is really difficult to talk to someone who doesn't want to hear what you have to say or someone who is in the middle of being angry. I think that for Guy and I, we had an agreement in place where I just said, "Look," I came to him vulnerably about my own issues.

And I said, "I don't like the way I'm reacting in anger. I don't like the tension that I feel. I want to be better for you and for the Lord. And so could we have, on Saturday mornings when the kids are sleeping in, could we just have a half hour where we have the freedom to say to each other, these are some areas of my concern, would you be open to hearing them? And likewise, I want to hear an area of your concern."

That we have the freedom and that planned time so that we're not reacting in anger in the moment or saying something at the wrong time, like when we're strapped in a car going somewhere and there's nowhere to escape and now the tension's building. But could we have that designated time to work on the health of our marriage and to work on the way that we love each other well?

And so that sort of gives some freedom, I think, to the both of you to work outside of conflict together and to know that it's not just me coming at you to criticize or to tell you all the ways I think you need to change. I really do want to have a humble heart and be open to areas where you think I need to grow.

And then to work on that. I would say to my husband, because it started with me, "I really have trouble with anger in my parenting. And so I need you to pray for me." And then I would just share with him, "These are the things I'm learning. These are the things I'm seeing God do in me when it relates to anger."

And as he saw that transformation in me, it was an example to him and he was more open to me having that conversation with him because it wasn't me just pointing my finger at him and how I was identifying his anger issues. I was acknowledging that I had my own, too.

And man, I don't ever enter those conversations without lots of prayer. The power of prayer that I will have wise words, that my husband's heart will be soft and receptive to what I have to say. Sometimes we need counseling, don't we? We need that third party to help us work through.

And Guy and I have done that. We always recommend that couples do that. Focus on the Family has amazing resources for counseling and for guidance. And you guys and your podcast. So there are helps and resources out there.

But when this was a very disturbing verse to me, Ephesians 4:26 through 27 says, "Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger and give no opportunity to the devil." And there was never a time in my life where I thought, "When I'm a mom or when I'm married, I'm going to give opportunities to the devil. This is going to be awesome."

No, I wanted a healthy marriage. I wanted to have a wonderful, loving relationship with my children. And so the thought that my anger or my husband's anger could actually be opening a door that's an opportunity to the devil really scared me, honestly. Not fear because I know that God has victory over that. There's nothing the devil can do to me. None of those weapons formed against me will prosper. But I knew that there was a gateway there that I could be opening by my anger. And so I just needed to be prayerful about my own heart, prayerful about my husband's heart, and really meditate on and pray through these scriptures that that would not be what happens in our home.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Which I love. You guys both have taken that posture of we just want to be teachable, we want to keep growing together, we'll examine these things, we'll have those conversations, which is amazing. What about for that spouse who wants to grow and yet has a spouse who really isn't open to hearing any sort of feedback or really being teachable? How do you encourage that person?

Amber Lia: Well, you know, I ultimately have to live my life accountable to the Lord. I cannot change my spouse. Only the Holy Spirit can do that. And that's where I go back to again, prayer, and I don't say that as a cliché easy out. I believe in the power of prayer.

And I believe in trusted prayer partners praying for my spouse. And I do believe in counseling and having a third party. But at some point, you have to yield and offer your spouse to the Lord and trust that God is going to do the work in them in His timing. I don't believe ever if there's a situation that's abusive and whatnot, then we don't want to put ourselves in a position where we're ever in an abusive situation or allowing that or perpetuating it or enabling it.

But in your typical marriage where there's anger is an issue and there's some struggles and we're wanting to grow and we're wanting to be coachable and teachable, I think that these conversations can be really, really helpful. But don't ever give up. God, it says that God's arm is not too short to save. There's nothing that is out of God's reach.

I want people to have hope for that. Guy and I struggled for many years, and then there would be progress and then we would, life would happen, and we'd need some readjustments and it's been a dance. It's been a dance for us. And so there are not very many perfect marriages out there.

So we're going to need to keep leaning into hope and to prayer, getting a third party to come alongside us as needed. But ultimately for me, this always goes back to Amber, the only person that you can change or that you can be open to changing is you. It's between you and the Lord. Focus there and keep being prayerful and keep modeling it for your spouse.

And I have to say, this is especially hard when there are children in the home. And a lot of times people will say to me, "But my heart is kind of breaking because my kids are seeing this angry spouse and I'm trying to model a more gentle biblical approach." And I always say, "Just don't ever underestimate the power of that one example that the kids have."

It is not lost on them. They are seeing the way that you respond instead of react. They're seeing the way that you handle your reactions and your responses in a godly way. And don't underestimate that. The angry example does not wipe out the godly example. I feel like there's much more power and influence in light than there is ever going to be in the darkness.

Erin Smalley: That is so good. Well, Amber, we could go on and on for another 30 minutes, so we'll have to have you back. But thank you so much for your ministry, for your wisdom. It's all biblically based and just so practical. So thank you for being with us.

Amber Lia: Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm so glad that we get to have these real-life conversations because there's a lot of people out there struggling and hopefully they can have some hope today.

Dr. Greg Smalley: I so appreciate how Amber just was coaching me, coaching husbands really around that mental load. And it's good to remember that. There's us dividing out tasks and chores and things, but just to remember that perhaps your spouse is carrying not just the literal task but the emotional, the mental load of having to prep or think about that throughout the day. So that was just really good to be reminded of.

Erin Smalley: It was interesting, yesterday I was at Annie's elementary school that she started at in kindergarten and went all the way through sixth grade. And as I was walking out, I had this flashback. One of the heaviest mental loads I carried for that child while she was in elementary school was, "Where are your glasses?"

Because inevitably, the child would walk out and her glasses wouldn't be on her face. And immediately, I'd go, "Where are your glasses?" "I don't know." We walked past the lost and found table and I was like, "Oh, maybe Annie's glasses are still there because they were there every other day."

And I carried that with me every day because if she lost her glasses, how's she going to be able to see for the next day at school? Do we often times, we would get a spare pair for that very reason. Can I find those? And if I can't, then what do we do? How do I orchestrate getting a new pair? It's all of that that women carry.

Dr. Greg Smalley: I'm telling you, that's the invisible stuff. Obviously we don't see it. So we encourage you, like we were talking about earlier, just ask each other, what are some things that you carry that I can't see? What's this invisible load, this mental, emotional load around some of the things within our marriage?

Because even if it's not something that I can say, "Well, I can do that for you," it's just connecting, letting that matter, having the conversation, then that's how you deal with the loneliness. And so again, appreciate Amber's coaching around that.

She also talked about, you know, don't let the sun go down on your anger. And anger within marriage, I mean that's such an important thing. Like when you think back for us, what's been helpful within our journey together as we've learned how to deal with anger?

Erin Smalley: I would say anger is often referred to as a marriage issue, but really, if someone has the pattern of raging, escalating, that's an individual thing that they need to really hone in on and learn some more effective coping mechanisms because that's a reaction and that's in their individual yard.

And I know for me, having been raised by a father that was angry, it's often passed down because really what's happening is the parent who's utilizing anger is modeling for their kids that this is how you manage emotions. And really the truth is they don't know how to manage emotions and that's their tool that they're utilizing. It just doesn't work because it keeps everybody away and their voice is really never heard because when someone's screaming or yelling at you, you really can't take in what they're even saying.

Dr. Greg Smalley: It's impossible. And so you're right, I mean learning how to manage as an individual anger is such an important part of building safety, security, trust within the relationship.

Erin Smalley: It is. And I just, I always tell my clients that come in and they're dealing with anger, and I would say pretty much every couple, that's an over-exaggeration, but the majority of the couples I work with, one or both are dealing with anger of some level. Either they weren't angry and now they're screaming or they came in thinking that's how you communicate emotion.

And I always say that was me, first four or five years of our marriage. That was me, that's how I thought you communicated. And soon I learned that's not who I wanted to be. And actually I committed prior to marriage I would never be that. And so often when we make those vows, "I'm never going to do that," we end up doing it.

So it's possible to gain healing and I have. And I can't remember the last time I genuinely yelled in anger.

Dr. Greg Smalley: I can't think of it either. Yeah, just shows the work that God can do in our lives. For you, that was a place where you really were crying out to Him going, "That's not who I want to be, it's not who You created me to be."

Erin Smalley: Especially with kids. Well, spouse and kids. If you're listening and you struggle with anger, we just want to encourage you that there is hope. Continue to cry out to the Lord because He's faithful. As well as read good material like Amber's book on anger or go to a Christian counselor who can help you explore what's really going on underneath the anger.

Dr. Greg Smalley: To your point, Amber has a terrific resource. So her book, *Marriage Triggers: Exchanging Spouses' Angry Reactions for Gentle Biblical Responses*, great resource. And it's the right place to start as you and your spouse touch on heart issues like releasing comparison or gaining confidence, listening to the Holy Spirit as you communicate.

Erin Smalley: And we'd be happy to send that to you for a gift of any amount. And you can find out more in the show notes.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Like Erin was talking about, if anger has been an issue in your home, we also recommend that you and your spouse take a look at our free marriage assessment as well as our reactive cycle assessment. And again, these are tools that you guys can use just to gain some more insight, to talk about often what's under the waterline. It's just a great place to begin to discuss these things.

Erin Smalley: And the links both for the marriage assessment as well as the reactive cycle assessment are in the show notes below.

If you've listened to the podcast for a while, you've probably heard us talk about Dr. John Trent and Greg's dad, Dr. Gary Smalley, and the personality type test that they both developed.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Dr. Trent is the head of a great organization called Strong Families, and he along with my dad developed a tool to really give you a valid picture of your strengths, of your different life experiences, how that shaped you and really how you look at the world.

They categorized all that information into four areas. So first of all, there's the natural leader, which they call the Lion. So the Lion is the natural leader. There's the Otter, and that's that more playful spirit. The Golden Retriever, that's think about like a loyal person, a loyal friend. And then the Beaver, which is the meticulous planner.

Erin Smalley: What's interesting is that many people tend to be one personality type when they're at home and another type when they're at work. And I have personal experience with this because I live with you at home and I come to Focus and work side-by-side with you, and there is a difference.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Which Greg do you like better? The work Greg or the home Greg?

Erin Smalley: I like both of the Gregs! So we want to encourage you, take this test with your spouse and maybe even have your kids take it as well. And then do a self-evaluation on how you might be different in the various situations of your life.

Dr. Greg Smalley: This is a powerful way to continue to deepen just your knowledge. You stay updated. It's important to understand differences like personality.

Erin Smalley: Ironically, this is the first personality test I ever took. And I took it in college and your sister gave it to me. And it was just so insightful because it helped me to understand this is just who I was made to be. Just my bent, because my family of origin was different than me. And so oftentimes I thought, "Well, is there something wrong with me because I'm different?" And so it was so wonderful to take this assessment just to see that's just who I am.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Okay, so of the four different personality types, what would you say you're most like?

Erin Smalley: I am a Golden Retriever-Otter, which means I'm warm, empathic, fun and spontaneous, loyal, optimistic, relational, joyful, and I'm also a peacemaker. However, each of these personality styles has blind spots. And my blind spots are I avoid hard talks, I'm a people pleaser, I follow through loosely, deflect with humor sometimes. But I would say that's probably more you, not that I'm supposed to be talking about you. My core need is connection, warmth, and harmony. I feel most loved when the relationship feels emotionally safe, fun, and free from criticism.

Dr. Greg Smalley: A great way to then do this is certainly take the assessment to see which animal. So Erin, for you, Golden Retriever-Otter, kind of your two. But I think a powerful then question to ask each other is, so that being true, how does that impact our relationship in the positive way?

Certainly there's going to be the negative ways that could impact. But for a fun conversation, like when I think about you as a Golden Retriever-Otter, I think one of the things that you bring to our relationship is that you love to take chances, you love to go on adventure, you like to try new things.

Versus for me, I like the routine, I don't like to do that. And I'm telling you, you stretch me in that way. And anytime that we do those things, I always have such a blast. But I wonder without you, I just would probably have a very long beard and be at home all the time.

Erin Smalley: Even on Mother's Day recently, you were like, "What do you want to do?" I said, "I want to go on a hike, just a simple hike." And so I found one that I had heard about, I'd wanted to go out there for a while. And so we did. And it always amazes me when we do something spontaneously or something new, you always enjoy it. It's just you would never think of that on your own.

Dr. Greg Smalley: I always have to, I've told Erin, "Just please push through when I say, when you suggest something I say no, and just say, no, we're doing it." Not that boundaries aren't important, but I just, I've learned that the initial idea, I'm probably like, "Nah, I don't want to do that. Sounds like too much work."

Erin Smalley: Then you have a blast.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Because my spirit animal really is a sloth. That's not one of the personality styles, but I would pick that one. For me, I'm a Beaver-Golden Retriever. And so for me, that detail orientation, you know, high standards, reliability, I'm organized, I really am quality focused. And at the same time with the Golden Retriever, very loyal, sweet, warm.

Erin Smalley: And I see the Beaver at work so much. You can take a topic and whittle away at it for hours, days, months.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Very Beaver-appropriate, whittle away. How do you see that benefiting our marriage then?

Erin Smalley: Well, I see this at work more than at home. I'm going to take my sticks and go home if that's the case. At home, I do definitely see that you will just decide like one area of the house is too overwhelming. And so you'll dig in and you'll do a deep clean, organization.

But then I find things stashed different places and I'm always like, "Just get rid of it."

Dr. Greg Smalley: So I always tell Erin, it really helps that kind of the main areas, our kitchen-living room area, and that's all open, and to have that clean and just simple and not cluttered is important for me. And I'm like, man, clutter away the bedroom, clutter, you have an office at home, clutter away! But just if those two areas can be clean.

So you're right, so often we'll stash things or hide things just to clean. And just to note, any of these personalities with the strengths, if they're out of balance, they become a weakness. And I don't, side note, I don't see your Beaver out of balance because I think the Golden Retriever part of you, you want peace and connection and you're loyal.

So I see that that kind of mutes your Beaver a little bit so it's not harsh and screeching. There's a, I haven't used my big buck teeth to cause damage to the marriage or you. Good. But the organization is helpful because it reminds me that organization is important, even though I'd rather be spontaneous and let things pile up and then I get to where I can't stand it and I've got to clean it up.

But I appreciate especially the influence, like in the main living area, it's clean. And although I did clean up those two shelves on that table behind our couch last weekend, it was bad and had been bad for a good six months, but I did it this weekend.

Dr. Greg Smalley: So this is what we're encouraging you to do, to have this sort of very conversation. So take the assessment yourself, so we'll put the link to that assessment in the show notes. Take that and then just talk about it. So go over what of the four did you score the highest, maybe the two highest in.

And then finish though with a "here's how I notice that those strengths really benefit our marriage." Now later on, choose a different time you want to talk about balance and maybe how some of those strengths, maybe give some feedback if you notice that somebody's out of balance. Talk first, seriously, have first the here's how that benefits.

Because I always love hearing Erin, the ways that you notice my even personality strengths and how that aids and benefits our relationship. So check out the show notes, you'll see the link, take that and have this discussion. Enjoy!

All right, well let's move on to our weekly Q&A, and seriously, we are truly humbled that you trust us enough to ask us these questions to invite us into what's going on within your relationship. So thank you.

Erin Smalley: Yes, absolutely. It's a privilege and we want to hear from you. Feel free to drop us a question or let us know if you'd like us to cover a specific topic.

Dr. Greg Smalley: It's really easy to leave us a voicemail or an email, just click on the link in the show notes and then follow the instructions.

Erin Smalley: Today's question is an email from someone who wanted to stay anonymous. This is what they said: Greg and Erin, I'd like to know more about dealing with the depression of my spouse. They have been unenthusiastic about most of our life situations throughout our marriage. I try not to take it personally, but I feel like my marriage isn't what it could be.

My spouse was on medication for years, but they quit taking it because they didn't feel that it was making much of a difference. I know there is a lot of childhood and life experiences that cause depression and that counseling could help, but what should I do to support my spouse while trying to encourage other options for them? Will they ever stop being depressed?

Dr. Greg Smalley: Man, that is hard, but I appreciate the question because I know you're not alone in dealing with a spouse that has depression.

Erin Smalley: Because I see this a lot working with couples, and I hear a lot about how difficult it is from individual clients who have a spouse that's depressed.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Well, maybe then as you work with couples, certainly around depression being one thing, talk about the biological part of that, medication. So walk us through how you handle that part of that discussion with them.

Erin Smalley: Yeah, it's recognizing there is something going on in the body, usually a decrease in serotonin that causes depression. And so it's important to recognize that there is a physiological basis for this. It can be triggered through trauma, past trauma or something current that's going on, something's changed, or maybe it's someone who has seasonal affective disorder, which happens often in those gray wintery months.

And it's interesting because often times people show up differently with depression. So when someone comes into my office and they say, "Hey, I'm depressed," I'll ask, "So what does that mean in your life? What does that look like? Are you sleeping more, sleeping less? Are you eating more, eating less? Are you withdrawing from the people you love? Are you not enjoying the things you once did? What does it look like?"

Because how does that help? So to gain a better picture of that, you're asking those questions for what end?

To really understand what they're struggling with. I give every client that comes in, I give them an assessment for depression. And so I have an idea even before I meet them if they're dealing with depression, anxiety, or even PTSD. And one of the things that is on the assessment is how much is this impacting their daily functioning.

And they take the assessment, the quiz, and then I get the results to see what is going on and then you can grade it: mild, moderate, or severe. And so just understanding, often naming it is helpful because typically someone is going, "What is wrong with me? I don't feel like myself." Or they've lived with it long enough that it's kind of become the norm, which it sounds like our listener is saying, that this has been a difficult thing throughout their marriage.

And I can imagine too, your spouse went off medication. I'm wondering if that was done under the direction of their medical provider, because that's key. You cannot stop taking an antidepressant cold turkey. And so it's important to be seeing someone who can help you with that.

And you've seen because I know as a former nurse, just the impact of medication on someone going through that and how that can be a part of the treatment process. Yes, well, I always say that medication can help you do the things you need to do to heal. And I know there's many differing opinions on medication for depression, anxiety, all of it.

But it's also looking at that our bodies often are so depleted from serotonin that often we can't do what we need to do to heal. So, but it's important to talk to a medical provider. I personally love psychiatric nurse practitioners because they spend a lot of time assessing the person holistically and often have really, really good knowledge on medications and medication management.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Now, that's so helpful to our anonymous listener who's asking this question. Just to be aware that within your journey with your spouse, that there was probably a lot of hopes and expectations and dreams that maybe haven't turned out the way that you had hoped or thought they would.

And that's why we've talked about this before, but there's such benefit in taking a moment to go see a counselor, a good Christian counselor to grieve and be able to talk through, this is what I was hoping, this is what I thought it would be, this has been the reality.

Erin Smalley: And even to process, often that spouse feels very lonely. And you going to counseling and getting help and healing can influence your spouse. And maybe then he might be willing to go in for some counseling as well as he sees the benefits in your life and what you're modeling within the marriage.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Yeah, I mean for us, we've discussed this before. I mean it has helped inspire me when I see that you have your counselor and you'll come and talk about, "Man, I had this great epiphany as I was processing something." A lot of times I'll be like, "Well wait, I want an epiphany! I love my Timmy!"

But but again, you've encouraged that. Not by saying, "Oh Greg, you need to go see someone," but the more you talk about your own journey and how your counselor has helped, that's helped me go, "Well, I want a Timmy in my life!" I have a Steve in my life who's been so incredibly helpful.

So yeah, you're right. I mean we can't nag our way into our spouse going to counselor. That's not our job. We can't do that anyway. But you're right, by you modeling that, by you doing that, boy that often can inspire our spouse to go and seek help as well. So thank you so much for your question.

And we're going to send you your copy of our book *Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage*. And if you have a question you'd like us to answer, send us a voicemail or an email. We've updated our process so it's super easy now. Just click the link in the show notes and reach out to us.

Thank you for joining us on *Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage*.

Erin Smalley: Yes, thank you for following the show and sharing it with your friends and family. We want you to have a seat at the table every week as we help equip you and your spouse to have a lifelong satisfying marriage.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Yeah, one of our greatest joys is thinking about you guys growing spiritually as individuals but also as a couple.

Erin Smalley: So you both can invest in other couples to help them build thriving marriages. Well, thanks for listening. We'll talk to you again next Monday about this crazy little thing called marriage.

Jim Daly: Taylor loves listening every day because we give him ideas, tips, and resources to improve his marriage.

Taylor: I like giving back to Focus on the Family because Jesus came not to be served but to serve, and Focus has served me tremendously. I just felt it on my heart that I needed to give back.

Jim Daly: I'm Jim Daly. Let's transform our nation one family at a time with your monthly pledge at focusonthefamily.com/joy.