Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage

Guest (Male): If you are a pastor wanting to save and strengthen marriages in your congregation, we've got a great tool for you. Marriage 911 by Focus on the Family trains laypeople to mentor couples who may be on the verge of divorce or who want to strengthen what they already have. The kit includes two leader guides, four workbooks, and all the training necessary to meet with and mentor men and women who need help. Visit marriage911.com. That's marriage, the numbers 911.com.

Erin Smalley: Welcome to Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage. I'm Erin Smalley.

Greg Smalley: And I'm her trophy husband, Dr. Greg Smalley. Don't take my word for it. Go ahead and check out our YouTube channel. You'll see what I'm talking about.

Erin Smalley: You just blew right through that. I expected validation. Well, I agree fully, though I don't know if you're a trophy husband. What is a trophy husband, anyway?

Greg Smalley: Me, obviously. That supermodel kind of husband.

Erin Smalley: That's exactly what I think of. It's like the grey-haired version. I am so glad that we have our guests on today because they're going to talk about affirmation. Actually, we're going to start part two of the discussion about how to rocket your marriage into orbit. Wow, that's vivid. Greg and I had a great time with Todd and Carolyn Petkau last time, and we are so excited for our talk today. If you haven't heard part one of the conversation, it's on our podcast page at crazylittlethingcalledmarriage.com.

Greg Smalley: And coming up, we have our ever-popular Q&A session. It's true. Today, we're going to try to help a listener who is a wife with a chronic illness and also a mother of six. That is very true. We hope you guys enjoy animals because we're going to be looking at some of the most loyal in the animal kingdom and see how they compare to your personality in marriage. All of this is coming up right after this.

Erin Smalley: I'm so ready to get back to the discussion with Todd and Carolyn Petkau about ideas to help propel your marriage to a whole new level. We're going to pick up the conversation. We were talking about atrophy and fueling the fire, so welcome back.

Carolyn Petkau: Thanks so much. We appreciate being here.

Greg Smalley: It's such a good conversation. We love the analogy that you're using around rocket fuel in what our marriage needs to continue to be healthy and strong. What are some of the obstacles that you guys see that really prevent that relationship rocket from even launching right?

Carolyn Petkau: Sometimes it's expectations. I think our expectations can be off-kilter and off-course if we're expecting too much or if we have unrealistic expectations of one another. I think that's one thing that we really struggled with in the early years of our marriage. I remember thinking Todd has to provide for all of my inner emotional needs, and that's certainly something that he's not even humanly capable of. Only Jesus Christ is capable of doing that.

I often would feel let down by Todd. A lot of that was on me, not on him, but was because of my unrealistic expectations of him. Another one would be just life stuff getting in the way. Our priorities. We run busy lives with children, careers, aging parents, or things that take up a lot of our time. We don't launch well because our life is so full with so many things and we have no margin in our lives for each other.

Todd Petkau: Conflict was a big issue for us. You grew up in a family where I think you had healthy conflict. I grew up completely petrified of conflict. We dealt with conflict very differently. It wasn't until everything started happening finally in years seven to ten to fifteen to twenty, but I finally learned that conflict is actually a prelude to intimacy. We started reframing conflict so that it's not bad, but that took me years, a decade to work through my patterns.

I also had my family of origin issues. I never once heard from my father, who was present, "I love you" or "I'm proud of you." I think I've spent 40 years trying to earn my father's love and admiration, and he's been gone for a long time, but that came into the relationship too. I think there's just a lot of things that can cause a relationship not to launch well.

On the other hand, most marriages do sort of launch with a lot of energy, passion, expectation, and the launching isn't so much the problem. It's once you get going that marriages somewhere along the way always run out of fuel and they lose the spark. Unless you intentionally refuel and you reignite that spark, you're going to be in a tough place and you're just going to drift. You only coast in one direction, and that is down. You don't coast up. It takes a lot of hard work. One thing I love about our marriage is that we have been working at it for 40 years. It's been a lot of hard work but really great results as well.

Erin Smalley: Isn't that just the case? So often couples will say, "Is it normal you have to work at this?" We're always like, yes. If anything in life that you work at is worth it. Often we can get lazy and believe that there's an autopilot. I don't know much about rockets, but I'm guessing there's not a switch that you can just flip and it keeps going.

Todd Petkau: Even look at the Artemis mission that just took place. They ended up with a toilet that didn't work and things were leaking and not working. You have to adapt, you have to assess, and you have to figure it out because our relationship always leaks fuel and energy. It's always going to go somewhere, so you have to figure out where it's leaking and how to put it back in.

Erin Smalley: When would you say that curiosity with your spouse can veer into crossing boundaries or being intrusive? We often talk about individual yards, like me crossing into Greg's individual yard and becoming an intrusive, unwelcome neighbor. When does that happen? How do you guys manage that? How do you know when you're crossing over too far?

Carolyn Petkau: In our early years of marriage, I think I generally crossed that line far too many times. Todd felt like he was being interrogated half the time. One thing that we've learned to build into creating that place of safety is also creating a place of respect. If someone isn't willing or in a place where they really want to talk about it, give them the space and the time to work through it. Also, ask if you can revisit this or if you can talk about this at some point because it's not good to stay in the different corners of life and not ever come together to talk about those things.

Todd Petkau: Using the door analogy again, when somebody's trying to pick the lock or force it with a crowbar trying to break in, that's where it becomes intrusive. Inviting and asking permission and even saying, "I would love to know some things. Can you give me permission to ask you some questions?" Even in that little simple moment, for Carolyn to say yes, I invite that, it turns into your volition now, not being forced upon you.

That whole respect thing is so important. I have a few ideas. One is when I'm trying to share something, I'll sometimes say I need an umbrella of grace right now. This means I'm probably going to say something wrong and I don't even have this figured out yet, but I want to voice it out. Can we just talk about this? Another one that I often use is, "Can I just unzip my soul for a minute?" Again, it's an invitation to you that says I have stuff going on inside of here I don't even understand and I'm a little afraid of. Can I unzip my soul a little bit and would you help me explore this? Moments like that build the trust and are respectful.

Being able to talk openly about those things and not interrogating or forcing is key. As soon as you try to interrogate or force, the wall goes up and the verbal hand grenades come out. The pin gets pulled and now we're just destroying one another's arguments. As soon as I say I'm feeling really insecure right now, or I'm feeling vulnerable, or I don't feel like we're on the same page, the wall comes down and we begin communicating.

Greg Smalley: So many people, Todd, to your point, I love that image of you unzipping your soul. You're saying to Carolyn, "Hey, can I give you real insight into what's going on for me? Can I be vulnerable?" That not only requires safety like you're talking about, but first and foremost, it requires insight. I know for guys, but probably for both men and women, just that level of insight into their own life and into their hearts and what's really going on can be really difficult. Often people don't even have that level of insight or self-awareness of what's going on. How have you guys over the years developed that? Did you just start off your marriage with all this amazing self-insight or is that something along the way that you've really developed?

Todd Petkau: We had so many moments. One of them was probably five or six years in. I was on a mission trip to Mexico. I had a bus full of students. I was a youth pastor. Carolyn was home with a baby. We were not on the same page.

Carolyn Petkau: I felt like so often Todd's attention was elsewhere. I loved the youth that we were working with at the time and they were great and a very big part of our lives, but I did begin to feel a sense of competition with them. All of his attention, all of his energy, all of his time was going there and I felt so neglected and so alone. I was loving my little baby and the new stage of life we were in, but our marriage was not good.

Todd Petkau: You had a very strong term for it too.

Carolyn Petkau: I remember saying to Todd, "I feel like the youth ministry is your mistress. That's where your attention and your love and affection lie."

Todd Petkau: I was offended. I was like, I'm serving the Lord. What do you expect from me right now? I'm trying to make some money, you're not working, and we're trying to keep this thing on the wheels. This is my calling and things are happening. Anyway, I go to Mexico and for some reason we have to switch buses. I remember coming back on an old city bus that had a hole in the floor. It had no air conditioning. You could watch the highway go by. We hung these hammocks between the poles.

Another youth pastor on the trip was reading a book and I said, "What are you reading?" He said, "I just finished. It's a book about marriage. Do you want to read it?" I played very cool, but I did want to read it. I wanted to get some tools. I'll never forget, I was so convicted and my eyes were open. It was 11:00 at night in Oklahoma City. We're driving back to Canada. It's hot and humid. I ran out of that bus, found a payphone, and gave you a call.

Carolyn Petkau: The phone rings late at night. I pick it up. It's Todd and he says, "I get it. I get what you've been saying all of these months." He was really beginning to enter then into my world of what I was feeling and sensing, and some changes started happening very shortly after that.

Todd Petkau: I don't even remember what the book was necessarily about, but I remember saying to myself, "If I'm going to come and I'm going to look through your eyes, I'm not going to oppose you or fight you. I'm going to come and see life through your eyes. If you see this as being the mistress in my life and your competition, then I want to deal with that. I want to believe you." I wasn't believing her before that. So that was just one moment of many along the way where we came more into one another's worlds. It's been like 40 years of those kinds of moments of discovery.

Greg Smalley: What helped you to get to the place to where you were really honestly willing to do some self-reflecting? Because I know oftentimes Erin will give me feedback, or Carolyn's given you feedback, and we give each other feedback. There has to be that moment where you kind of step back and go, "Okay, really let me then observe what's going on here. Know me. What is going on?" What's helped you to develop that skill of being willing to self-reflect?

Todd Petkau: I think there's a few things. One is my lead pastor when I was a youth pastor used to always say, and it kind of freaked me out at the time, but he used to always say, "I am capable of any sin." Coming from a lead pastor to say that, there was a degree of humility and openness that I think it invited me to begin acknowledging.

I think we get into real trouble where we say, "I'm not selfish. I would never cheat on you." We put up these false fronts, and those are the very people that end up messed up. When you walk with a little bit of humility and realize I am capable of any sin, I'm capable of selfishness, I'm capable of hiding the truth, I'm capable of apathy and indifference, I want to be better than that.

I think the other thing is where we finally came to the place where you weren't the person on the other side of the tennis net that I'm trying to score points on. Not your adversary. We spent a decade trying to spike the ball to earn the points because it was a tug-of-war of some sort. When we finally said, "I'm coming to your side of the net and it's going to be you and me against the world," that changed everything.

That didn't happen overnight. It needed a definitive moment of decision. You think putting a ring on the finger, standing in front of a pastor or priest or justice or whoever to unite you, sleeping in the same bed, living under the same roof, you'd think that we're on the same team, but you're not. Somewhere down the road later on, a decisive moment needs to be made that I am on your team and even declaring it. We are one and it's you and me against the world.

That's where Carolyn was able to deal with my stuff two weeks ago because she already had this foundation of wanting me to prosper and us to prosper. We want to look after one another. It's not me being offended by you. We just get to that place quicker now after 40 years.

Erin Smalley: It is so helpful in those moments to reground in what's true. What's true about me, what's true about him, and what's true about our marriage. Kind of like you're saying, you guys knew that in the depths of your soul. Maybe not in that moment, maybe we don't show up like that, but we know that no, we're in this. We're in this together. We're on the same team. I know he loves me and she loves me. So okay, we're going to be able to work through this. There's something about that inner conversation that helps to simmer it down and then action can begin.

Todd Petkau: I love that. For somebody who isn't used to that level of communication or vulnerability, to just try a little bit. Test the waters, try a little bit. I think there is a shieldedness around our souls. Maybe we don't even have the right words to explain the emotions that we're experiencing. But that's something I've really had to learn to trust you with and it violates what the world says I should be as a man. That I need to be bravado and I need to be together and I need to have it figured out and I need to be the boss. To be able to say, "I'm struggling at work right now. I've got some fear and I don't know what to do with it." Just test the waters of vulnerability. 95% chance that your spouse is going to respond in a really favorable way because you invited them into that.

Erin Smalley: What about forgiveness and unforgiveness? I know many of our listeners have heard unforgiveness is like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die. But you guys associate unforgiveness with kind of being in a prison. Can you tell us about that?

Todd Petkau: I think you're right. A lot of people have heard the poison thing before, and so even as we were writing that chapter, we wanted just another construct, another way of looking at it. Realize that often what our unforgiveness does is it puts us in a little cell, 10-foot by 10-foot, and it makes our world smaller. We're not seeing God's grace, we're not seeing the potential, we're not seeing the things that we could move into because your world just gets smaller with this unforgiveness.

There's a moment of freedom that is needed, an unlocking of that prison bar, a dismantling of the cell. You've had to work through some forgiveness issues various times and you would say that that's kind of been your experience too, right?

Carolyn Petkau: I'll never forget a time that I was really struggling with hurt by a very good friend of mine who betrayed my trust. A mentor that I had in that season said, "Carolyn, there has to come a definitive time where you choose to let it go." We were together in this one place, my mentor and I, and she said, "What I want you to do is just put a stake down right here in this room and say on this date, this is the day I'm choosing to let it go."

When it starts to come back again, those feelings, the thoughts of that hurt, declare to yourself, "No, on April 29th, I left it there in that building, in that room, and I'm not picking it up again. It's gone." It took a while to continually do that and then it was like, I'm free of it. I'm free. Even when the thoughts come of what my friend did, it was completely gone and that friendship was actually restored in a beautiful way and trust was rebuilt. But it came to a decision, a decision to let it go. One thing that we do regularly in our relationship when we've hurt one another is not just say "I'm sorry," but say "Will you forgive me?" and give that person the opportunity to extend that forgiveness.

Todd Petkau: We've even got to the place in the early years where I'd say I'm sorry and you'd say big deal. That was a shortcut for me. You were wanting me to say "Will you forgive me?" In that definitive moment, sometimes you even said "I'm not ready." But this idea that unforgiveness, it's almost like Christ has already unlocked the cell and opened the door, but so many people still live in that cell. It's just confined and it's constricting and it's not a happy place. You think you're putting a wall between you and the other person, but that wall is actually just keeping you locked in. So it's really important to work through those various elements. There's some great books out there on how to forgive and some great resources.

Greg Smalley: In the analogy is so good, that prison. Unforgiveness is going to keep us in that cell, as well as you guys talk a lot about the broken soundtracks that go on inside of us. We imagine that's another way that we can kind of be trapped in that jail, so to speak.

Todd Petkau: Oh yeah. I mean, I have struggled my entire life with these soundtracks that play in my mind. For me, they're "I'm not enough," "I'm not good enough," "People don't fundamentally like me."

Greg Smalley: We like you, so we just want to settle that right now. We like you.

Todd Petkau: That's great, Greg, thanks. But even fundamentally, how could you love me knowing who I really am and all that? But those just come through insecurity and my upbringing. You have your soundtracks. In fact, I remember when I first met you, you told me about a soundtrack of yours.

Carolyn Petkau: For me it's similar to yours about "Will they really like me? Will they reject me?" I had some rejection in my childhood and teenage years and so that kind of has really stuck with me and plays in the soundtrack of my mind. "Will they reject me? Will they really stick with me?" So that is definitely something we've had to fight against, these soundtracks, and change the soundtrack and really lean into scripture for what God says about who we really are.

Todd Petkau: As great as it is to hear that you love me and everything else, it's really what the scripture says, right? That nothing can separate us from the love of God. That you are more than a conqueror. Just positive affirmation stuff is good and it's helpful, but I find that the truth of scripture, when you start replaying and putting that as the soundtrack, choosing that as the soundtrack of your mind, there are just so many tracks that they counterbalance all those broken soundtracks.

We kind of call this a historical awareness in that I think Carolyn and I both grew up and a lot of these soundtracks actually started spinning when we were probably five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten years old. That's when they started spinning. So to understand how you grew up and what environment and what messages you received and for you to understand my messages that I've received that I'm constantly kind of battling is really helpful to have a conversation. Again, in that chapter in our book, there's going to be fuel and spark questions at the end that have you talking to one another saying, "Okay, let's explore the soundtracks that you're hearing. What soundtracks am I hearing? How can we apply scripture to counterbalance those?"

We are all about practicality and actionability. We just love when something is practical. First of all, we love construct, we love illustration, we love story, but then once the principle is deposited in the heart, to be able to say, "Okay, now what do I do with this? Let's make this practical and let's make it actionable." That's just so much fun for us.

Erin Smalley: And so often the enemy's all over those. I mean, the soundtrack will be running and there's the enemy right there going, "See, there it is again. It's true. This is who you are." Talking back to him and silencing him in Jesus' name and speaking the truth of God's word over yourself stops that turmoil that he continuously wants to drag us into. I love that because we all have it.

Greg Smalley: We do.

Todd Petkau: You're right. We always interpret those soundtracks as being true. We always hear them and because they're spinning in our minds, we say they must be true. The devil just loves to spin those suckers.

Carolyn Petkau: In partnership with God's word is also being your spouse's cheerleader, to affirm them in the things that they're good at, in the things about their character that inspire or touch you because if your spouse is cheering you on and being in your corner, that just can make so much difference for how you're feeling.

Greg Smalley: One of my favorite things to do when Erin and I go out on a date, maybe we're at a restaurant, is just to observe people and notice couples and how they're showing up. Are they talking at the table? Are they looking at their phones? When they're walking, are they hand in hand?

I gotta tell you, Todd, it's been so much fun watching you guys, but especially how you will turn to Carolyn when we ask a question. You have a great way of starting to answer that, but then you'll turn to her and say, "Well, what about you?" There's a way in which you don't monopolize the time. You're just very aware of her, it seems. I'm just observing, noticing that. That's been so much fun just to watch you show up in that way and behave that way. Why do you do that? I just think it's so cool to watch it. He does that so well, what is that about?

Todd Petkau: You're putting me on the spot here. I mean, I did say to Carolyn this afternoon, I think I could probably just quit my job and rub your feet and serve you and do the dishes and take care of you and tell you I love you because I'm so crazy about you. So I really am crazy about you. I think the oneness, biblically we talk about this idea of oneness. Again, you think that it should happen, "Okay, we've now consummated the marriage on our honeymoon. We must be one." Are you kidding me? It's going to probably take us 60 to 80 years to fully grow into that oneness. I just happen to think that we're 40 years into putting some of these biblical principles into action and watching the fruit of that. But again, let's not pretend that it hasn't been brutally hard at times. It's just that we keep showing up to do the hard work and I think we really are in one another's corner and we really do respect one another. But that oneness thing, I mean I feel incredibly one with Carolyn.

Carolyn Petkau: I absolutely do feel the same, but it has been the years and the effort. The word intentionality is a word we are always using because as soon as we stop being intentional, we find our own relationship start to coast downhill and not go well. So that intentionality is so important.

Todd Petkau: Keeping it fresh. Intentionality requires keeping it fresh. Keeping it fresh means doing things you haven't done. We keep talking about these "didn't see it coming" moments. That's what keeps it fresh when we do these little things that surprise one another. You'd think after 40 years that again, it would be hard to find things that keep it fresh and surprise one another, but we keep finding these little ways of just doing things that we hadn't done before. So that adventure, we're continuing on this adventure. As great as today is, tomorrow's going to be even more fun as we pursue one another. I think that's the other thing, is that we actively pursue one another in conversation, in trying to out-honor each other. Oh, you're going to honor me in that way? You're not going to win. I'm going to out-honor you. To have this little competition of who's going to honor the other more, those are probably some of the other things that have just kind of kept us going.

Greg Smalley: What's that like, Carolyn, for you when he stops and includes you, draws you in, pursues you into that conversation? What is the message there? What do you hear when he does that?

Carolyn Petkau: I feel so cherished. I feel so loved. You know, we all have these questions, the soundtracks that go on and on or in the back of our mind. The question of "Would he choose me again?" Yes, I believe he would choose me all over again. That's the message that he gives me and that I feel. I long for every wife to experience that because to feel cherished is just one of the best feelings in the world and I'm so glad that he worked so hard at doing that because it wasn't always like this. This is a growth thing. It's not that the day we got married I felt cherished. No, it's been a growing ongoing experience.

Todd Petkau: I don't know, we're not into watching zombie movies so I don't have my zombie theory all worked out, but I see my selfishness and the sin and the brokenness of my life as zombies that are running around my life. I'm very aware of when I want to be selfish and do my thing. What I've said to you is, you know what, in this moment I'm going to put a knife in the back of my own selfishness. I'm going to put a knife in the back of that zombie which isn't even really alive anyway, so I don't mind killing it off. I think we've both learned to kill off our selfishness or that hiding or that apathy.

I put little tiny practices in place. One of the things I do is, Carolyn's out late at a meeting and I have a chair here in the living room. I make sure that I'm sitting in that chair. I got my laptop, I'm working. As soon as I see her lights in the driveway, I fold up the laptop, one last scan to make sure the kitchen's clean, the candle's lit, and I'm standing at the door waiting for her. When she reaches to open the door, she doesn't have to. I open the door, she comes in, give her a hug, take the bags. I've been doing that for a decade maybe or eight years, I don't know, but every single day. I just don't want her ever coming home with this impression, "Oh, that TV or that show or that work or that spreadsheet is more important than me." I want her to get the message every day that there's nothing more important than you and I will drop everything for you to communicate that. That's just a personal discipline that helps me. When you do that, when you put that into play, your emotions and your heart actually follow that. Sometimes you have to start putting the action into play. You've had many occasions where you've served me equally. Maybe it wouldn't be your first desire, but you've put a knife in the back of your own selfishness and you've served and I know that you're doing that and I just feel so honored. Then all that emotion and stuff grows.

Carolyn Petkau: You were just saying about me coming home or those first encounters after an evening. We learned somewhere along the way about how the first 11 seconds of somebody interacting with another person is so important. So that's something we put into practice. How is our first interaction with one another, whether it's when we wake up or when we're coming home, when we're getting together after a busy day? What were those first 11 seconds like?

Erin Smalley: You guys are amazing. Truly, genuinely, you can tell that you guys like each other. I'm guessing as a result of the intentional efforts you have made over 40 years that you've grown this amazing connection. It's just apparent as we get to sit here and watch you on the screen. We just want to say thank you so much for your ministry, for who you guys are, for your relationship, and for sharing it with us today. Thank you so much for being with us.

Todd Petkau: It's been so much fun. Thank you, Greg and Erin. We really appreciate you having us today.

Greg Smalley: What a rich conversation with those two. I am just blown away by their relationship, how they engaged with each other, and just their ability to communicate so clearly and with so much depth and accuracy.

Erin Smalley: It was fun just watching them and how they treated each other and behaved as we went along. I think the biggest thing that stood out was just Todd's self-awareness. Not that Carolyn didn't have that. He just at every turn in all of what we talked about was really based on his paying attention to what's going on inside. Just that self-awareness, unzipping his own soul sort of speak, as he talked about that analogy. That is so critical. It's pretty tough to build a strong marriage when we don't become self-aware enough to recognize what we're bringing to the table, our strengths, weaknesses, growth areas, all of that. He did such a great job. How does someone begin to develop that?

Greg Smalley: I would say self-awareness comes with being intentional. They used the word intentional a lot. To develop self-awareness, it would be checking in regularly with yourself to go, "What am I feeling right now? Why did I react like that?" Asking questions, being curious with yourself in order to really delve deeper into what is really going on.

Oftentimes, we just go through life and bypass that. Even things like, "I just got really irritated. Why?" Oftentimes, people don't take the time to do that. "I was really angry. How come? What was underneath that?" Just being intentional about that. I'm guessing that he probably has also done some therapeutic work and being able to have a safe space just to process and to dig into his soul.

We talk a lot about emotional intelligence. There's some really important components of being emotionally intelligent, and it all starts with that person's ability to become self-aware. For me, I wasn't good at taking time to sit back and go, "Yeah, what is going on? How do I feel?" I didn't have a good emotional vocabulary. It took me a while to figure that out.

If you want a cheat code here, we have something called the Reactive Cycle. It's an assessment that you take. We'll throw the link in the show notes, but you can always go to reactivecycle.com. Here's how this helps. This assessment is really designed to help you think about when conflict happens and when we're in the midst of a conflict, what's going on for me? We give you all these emotional buttons, these words and phrases to choose from with the definitions. That is so helpful because I think oftentimes we're like, "What does that emotion really mean? What does that sound like?" It's super helpful.

What that did for me is it gave me a language. It gave me very specific words to begin to then notice about myself. For me, I chose on the reactive cycle when we're in conflicts, oftentimes I feel "failed," "invisible," "that I don't measure up." Throughout the day, if I feel triggered or something hit me wrong, it's oftentimes just thinking about those particular buttons. That's how I started to really learn how to be self-aware.

Erin Smalley: It's such a great tool. Check it out. The other thing that really stood out to me was they talked about the first 11 seconds that you engage with someone. I've never really thought of that around our spouse. When you initially come back into each other's presence, we talk about greeting each other and sit down whatever you're doing and take time.

Greg Smalley: Give me a big old kiss when I walk into the room.

Erin Smalley: But you have great influence those first 11 seconds to either show up and help your spouse to feel loved and wanted and welcomed, or we can ignore and miss that moment. Such an important time we can influence the connection. You're in the middle of writing your dissertation for your doctorate, so you had me read all these articles called the Lit Review that you found. One that stood out as I read it, I faithfully did what you asked. I'm thankful you did. It was like 30 pages, by the way. I bet. One of the things that you found, the research studies that contribute to a healthy, more flourishing marriage, is when we are intentional to create warmth in our relationship.

Greg Smalley: A warm emotional connection. That's under that sub-heading. Emotional connection, that's what it is. I read it, I looked at it. But that's what you're saying. Those first 11 seconds, I think if there was a goal, I would say the goal is how I want to treat you, show up, what I'm doing is to create warmth. Think about a campfire. That warm campfire is so inviting that people linger. When we're around a campfire, that's when we start talking and we're laughing and playing and roasting marshmallows. Yet, if that campfire grows too hot or starts spitting embers out or dies out fully, then people leave. So I think about those first 11 seconds. How am I creating a campfire experience for you? Because the warmer it feels, the more we're going to linger, and that's what we're wanting throughout the night is to connect in that way.

Erin Smalley: Absolutely. Between these two episodes, we touched on several rocket fuels, but in their book, Todd and Carolyn talk about 18 ways to improve your marriage.

Greg Smalley: These were great. If you want to see the other rocket fuels, go ahead and click the link in our show notes and pick up Todd and Carolyn's book, *The Relationship Rocket Formula*. With a donation of any amount, we'll send that book to you or a loved one.

Erin Smalley: Your gifts help marriages and families in need all around the country and really all around the world. If you can donate to this outreach, we just want to say thank you. You're helping marriages get through the hard times and also build solid foundations for the future. If you've never donated to the program, it's easy. There's a link in the show notes to give, or you can also contribute safely and securely by calling 1-800-A-FAMILY. That's 1-800-232-6459. Thank you for joining us in the fight to build godly marriages.

It's well known that swans often symbolize love. They do the cool little thing where their necks are in the shape of a heart. We've all seen one of those. But did you know that over 90% of swans will mate for life? That's amazing. Very cool. Actually, when one mate dies, the other swan may display grief or loneliness. While some swans will seek out a new mate, others become so distraught over their loss that they neglect their own needs. They stop grooming themselves, caring for their offspring, or even eating.

Wow. Isn't that powerful? This can obviously cause them to be so malnourished that they eventually even starve to death. This is why I actually had to stop traveling for work. You became so distraught when I was gone that you quit grooming yourself.

Erin Smalley: That sounds like the truth.

Greg Smalley: But you're better now, right? You're well-groomed, you take care of our kids, and you are eating, thankfully. You would always come back from trips and say, "Why do you guys do the fun things when I'm gone? You make the good meals when I'm gone?" You are nothing like a swan. You have parties when I'm gone. I'm an anti-swan. But it is really sad that they can starve to death. My word.

Hearing the swan story of loyalty got us thinking about other creatures in the animal kingdom and how they handle loyalty to their mates. For example, looking at beavers, they work side by side, building their life together. That really reminded me of how important teamwork is inside marriage. It's slowing down to connect. That's why I just think of the importance of really making sure that our teamwork is strong. You think about those two beavers building their dam, building their nest. I love going fishing, so it's so much fun out in the middle of nowhere when we're fishing these little ponds we'll find a beaver dam. It's so impressive. For us, we really try to behave that way. We've taken our cue from beavers in that sense that we are on the same team. Therefore, we're either going to win together or we're going to lose together. There is no such thing as a win-loss in marriage. That's why teamwork is so important.

Erin Smalley: What about California mice? What have they taught us? I probably need to do a little more research on this, but California mice may fight, but they stay loyal and they repair. This reminds us that conflict isn't the problem, it's disconnection. We talk a lot about that as far as conflict. We all have conflict, including California mice, but they come back and they repair that conflict as we should also be doing in our marriage, to come back around and reconnect and figure out what was really going on and what was happening and figuring it out. Coming back, not letting it compile, is the key. They have commitment through their conflict, which is a big deal. The research I'm doing for my dissertation on conflict specifically shows there's so much that happens in conflict that actually strengthens the marriage satisfaction. I'm guessing commitment through conflict would be one of those characteristics that actually strengthens the marriage. In essence, what do we take away from this? How can we grow? Don't avoid conflict. As we've said, it can be the doorway to intimacy when conflict is done well.

Greg Smalley: You think about a great verse in the New Testament. I can't think of which one, but it's the one that talks about not getting involved in these stupid conflicts because they just produce quarrels. That's the point. A stupid conflict happens when it's really based in pride. I want what I want and I'm going to argue for that and I ain't going to think about you.

Erin Smalley: Like defensiveness?

Greg Smalley: Perhaps. I don't get defensive, so I don't know if that's what you were talking about. Why do you think that?

Erin Smalley: Are you defending yourself right now?

Greg Smalley: Yes. Going to see if you could tell. I wonder which animal couple would be real defensive. I don't know, have to think about that. But if you were to think about lots of animal couples, any one that you would choose in particular that reminds you of us? Who do you think we act more like?

Erin Smalley: Maybe two otters. Or maybe an otter and a golden retriever that marry each other? No, that wouldn't work. But would you say we're more otters or more golden retrievers?

Greg Smalley: Golden retrievers, for sure. We're very loyal. We love to chase. Typically very chill, typically very calm. We have a golden doodle. Ultimately, what would you pick to represent your marriage? What animal pair would you say is most like you? We'd love to hear that. Click on the link in the show notes to tell us what you've come up with. We're looking forward to seeing your answers. We were vulnerable and shared about what we would say we are, so we'd love to hear from you. Hey, penguins, they're very loyal. Maybe you could choose them. They even give their mates little gifts. They give like little rocks.

Erin Smalley: I love gifts, and you even gave me a rock when we got engaged and I still wear it. So have fun with this and we can't wait to hear from you.

Here's today's Q&A. We have a question from Karen, who writes: "What would be your recommendations or tips for a 20-year marriage where one person has had a chronic, life-impacting illness for the entire duration? How do you invest in the marriage in a healthy way when you feel like your whole life has been in survival mode? I'm a mother of six with an autoimmune issue and I'm tired. Thanks so much for your impactful ministry. May the Lord bless you abundantly and continue to use you for His glory."

Greg Smalley: Wow. 20 years married, six kids, chronic illness, and she's tired.

Erin Smalley: Most moms are tired, but moms of six kids and an autoimmune disorder, she's real tired.

Greg Smalley: I know you're saying we've been in survival mode for 20 years, but just understand that's not failure. That's faithfulness under fire. Celebrate that. Have that sort of conversation when you have all those six kids put down to sleep or something, to where you guys could just chill for a moment and just say, "Man, let's talk about our story. Let's talk about our journey, our adventure together. 20 years. Let's talk about the good, the bad, the ugly. Let's celebrate it all and make God the hero of your story. Look how He's showing up."

Erin Smalley: The fact that she's even asking this question tells me that she's interested in attempting and trying to prioritize the marriage and invest in the marriage. I can imagine, especially if she has small kids, it doesn't say if she has small kids or not, but if they're small kids, they demand a lot of time and energy. I can imagine it would be easy to put the marriage on the shelf. But it sounds like she's trying to return to investing in the marriage, which is great.

Greg Smalley: One of the most powerful things that we can do is to grieve the difference between what we thought, what we expected, what we were hoping our marriage, our life together would look like, and the reality of how it's been. Have that honest, "Here's what I was hoping and expecting to have happen. It didn't. Let's grieve that together." Grief is a powerfully bonding experience when you guys do that together.

Erin Smalley: How has this impacted each of them individually as well as the marriage? What has it cost them? That's not to point fingers and to blame, that's just to express your experience as well as your emotions that are tied to it and just letting your heart grieve because often as we grieve, it helps to keep our heart soft and open so we can continue engaging.

Greg Smalley: It's bonding to grieve together. And then I would also say to Karen, you cannot pour from an empty cup. If you have nothing to give, that's difficult to then pour out to others. So whatever you can be doing because it sounds like you're tired and worn out, which makes sense, how can you be super intentional about filling? About going to the source for a filling each and every day as well as looking at how am I doing caring for myself relationally? Am I surrounding myself with godly, encouraging friends who can walk with me and pray with me, as well as step in when I need help? Accepting help is sometimes really hard for moms, and allowing those women to step in. As well as how are you doing emotionally? Are you taking time to care for your heart to grieve like we were just talking about?

Greg Smalley: We could give all the best marriage advice, but if the individuals aren't well cared for, that's tough. Erin and I often will ask each other this question during this season. Whatever's true about this season within our marriage, what is it that helps me to recharge? Maybe you guys ask each other that. Often for a lot of people the answer is, "I have no idea. I've been prioritizing others, I've been more focused on the kids or serving my spouse, I neglect me." Even if that's the answer, that's still a powerful question to ask each other in this season: "What helps me to recharge?" When I hear you describe that, then I want to help make those things happen. Like even today, you were saying, "Hey, I'm supposed to get together with some girlfriends, we're just going to have one of those evenings just to chill and talk," and yet you were going, "But I know you and I need to talk about something important." I like that you were wrestling: "Do I do a self-care activity, which is to spend some time with my friends, or should you and I use that time to talk?" I loved that you were asking that.

Erin Smalley: Well, I did cancel my plans, which was my choice.

Greg Smalley: You choose me!

Erin Smalley: I choose you, but I went out last night with a friend and I'm going out tomorrow night with a friend, so it was okay. Tonight was a bonus.

Greg Smalley: Last night? You were out with a friend last night?

Erin Smalley: Well, actually, no, you and I went out with a couple. I was like, "Wait, where was I?" You were. But it is important to hold all of it and to know, yes, I am doing these things intentionally to refill. So thus I don't have a problem stepping out of tonight because I've been taking care of myself. I have something to give.

Greg Smalley: That's a good thing for you and I to ask each other, then how do we support making sure that you do have some time to recharge, that I have some time to recharge? But then it's also looking at the marriage. How do we care for the marriage? Because the two individuals being well cared for is completely important, but how are we caring for the marriage? What we have found, especially back in the day when we had small kids, those small little acts of kindness, those small little things that we can be doing in the day-in and day-out of living life together, things like acknowledging bits for connection, or greeting each other when our spouse arrives home, or how are we saying goodnight? Just those simple little gestures that can make such a big difference in the overall connection in the marriage.

Greg Smalley: Maybe it's making that mental shift from "We're just in survival mode." We get the reality, so we're not saying just choose to not be in survival mode. That's not realistic. But Karen, sometimes what can really be a great conversation is just to talk about maybe what would one thing within our marriage, what area could be about more than just managing life together? Maybe you're going to choose, "Hey, we're going to every day just spend 10 minutes. We'll carve that out, we'll tell the kids, leave us alone," whatever that needs to look like, and we're just going to do a quick little check-in. What was the high of your day, the low of your day? Maybe it's something like that, but be intentional to pick what's one area that we're going to pick that's not going to just be about managing our life together. Maybe it's a quick little we're going to stream a favorite program, or we're going to go for a walk together, we're just going to have a favorite beverage and we're just going to sit down and we're going to talk for 10 minutes, whatever.

Erin Smalley: I would also say an opportunity could be to get away once a year, just the two of you, and I know that's hard when you have six kids, but again, asking for support and help, either grandparents or friends or somebody in your church who can come and stay with the kids, even if it's just overnight, just to get away together because so often when you're away just the two of you, it's amazing that couples really remember who they are together versus who they are in the everyday rat race of life in as well as parenting. So it's good to get away and just to have that sweet time alone and together.

Greg Smalley: Karen, we commend you. Thank you for asking the question. That shows us that you're not simply only in survival mode. You're listening to the podcast, you're trying to figure out some ways to level up within your relationship. So of course, like always, we'll be sending you a copy of our book, *Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage*.

Erin Smalley: If you or your loved one has a marriage question that they'd like answered, consider leaving us a comment or recording a voice message. You can do both simply by clicking in the show notes.

Greg Smalley: Well, thanks for joining us on Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage.

Erin Smalley: Yes, thank you for following the show and sharing it with your friends and family. We want you to have a seat at the table every week as we help equip you and your spouse to have a lifelong satisfying marriage.

Greg Smalley: Yeah, we want to see you guys growing spiritually together, but also as individuals.

Erin Smalley: So you can turn right around and invest in other couples to help them build thriving marriages.

Greg Smalley: Well, thanks for listening. We'll talk to you again next Monday about this crazy little thing called marriage.

Guest (Male): If you are a pastor wanting to save and strengthen marriages in your congregation, we've got a great tool for you. Marriage 911 by Focus on the Family trains laypeople to mentor couples who may be on the verge of divorce or who want to strengthen what they already have. The kit includes two leader guides, four workbooks, and all the training necessary to meet with and mentor men and women who need help. Visit marriage911.com. That's marriage, the numbers 911.com.