Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage

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Dr. Greg Smalley: Welcome to Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage. I'm Dr. Greg Smalley.

Erin Smalley: And I'm Erin Smalley. We've mentioned this analogy before, but have you ever looked at the back of a tapestry? On one side, it's beautiful and it's a beautiful picture. But on the other side, there can be tangled threads and knots all holding together the elements of the image on the front side. In essence, that backside with all the chaos can sometimes feel like marriage.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Yeah, and I think it's easy, just probably human nature, that it's easier at times to notice the backside, the threads, the knots, the chaos, the mess. And we miss really what God's doing, the beauty of how he's stitching together our story. I remember my dad used to talk about this principle called treasure hunting, and it's such a perfect way to think about this because we do need to have times where we're looking to the front side to what God's doing and we get to see the beauty.

You think of a James 1:2-4 where it really talks about when troubles come your way, which they will, consider that an opportunity. And really what it's saying is because when these trials, when the mess, when the threads, when the knots are there, the trust that we can have is God is always doing something in our life. He's growing us. He's perfecting us. We're becoming more like his son.

And yet it's not just a matter of turning the tapestry over so we can see the beautiful picture. It's actually being super intentional to go, okay, so what is God doing through the knots and the threads and the backside? He's doing something, we need to find it. That's the treasure.

Erin Smalley: What are the treasures that he's bringing forth both in you, maybe in your spouse, or maybe in the marriage? And so it's watching for those and even being intentional about looking for the treasures or the pearls that he is creating through the difficulties.

Today we're going to give you some encouragement as you're weaving those threads of your tapestry in your life, your marriage relationship, and your relationship with God. Later we're going to challenge you to fill your spouse's love tank and we have a few ideas for you there. And then we're going to answer a listener question from a husband who doesn't feel qualified to lead his family.

Our guests today are Ashley Durand and Kristen Roche. They've written a great book called Mothering on Empty because if you're a mom, you know the frustrations and the difficult days, isolation and sacrifices that come with mothering. But we're going to shift those concepts that they've outlined in mothering toward marriage. So we're calling this episode Spouse-ing on Empty.

Dr. Greg Smalley: And I tell you what, send this episode to every husband you know because I had such the privilege of feeling like I was being coached by the three of you in such a beautiful way. And we started our conversation by asking them, the title of your book is Mothering on Empty, talk to us about what emptiness really looks like.

Kristen Roche: I think I was really surprised, especially when our kids were super small, just how desperately they needed me for everything. And I just felt so depleted all the time because they needed me all the time. And so when your kids need you for everything, there's not much left in the tank to give to a spouse, and so it can be really straining on a marriage relationship, I feel like.

Ashley Durand: And when you're focusing so much on all the external pressures like financial stress or all the things you have to do, you can start to feel like you need to control and fix things, and that can really drain you. When you're trying so hard to make everything better in your own strength rather than just giving it to Jesus and letting him fill the weak spot, you can find yourself really weary.

Erin Smalley: Oh, I know. I've been around the mothering thing for a long time, and I remember when I look back, those were the hard years of pouring out because they do need you so much. I don't know that the need ever goes away, but it shifts to not such a physical and emotional capacity and it shifts more into that emotional place as they age.

But some of the concepts in your book are chapter titles: Hope in Crisis, Get Out of the Rut, there's Purpose in the Mundane, Resentment versus Surrender. So there's a lot of content that crosses over into marriage. But what is at the core of your message? What's the bottom line of your message?

Ashley Durand: I would say the bottom line is John 10:10. The thief comes to kill, steal, and destroy, but Jesus has come that we can have life and have it abundantly. And he's not talking about some far off future in heaven. He's talking about right now, right here, even in the middle of the exhausting days of motherhood and the days where we feel like things are out of our control. We can have complete peace and joy in meeting with Jesus in those moments of weakness.

Kristen Roche: I would also say joy is the undercurrent to this book and how joy is not there necessarily for the happy times. Joy is there to carry us through the hard times. And how Christ is that constant and how joy is really being able to live with the perspective that this is not how the story ends. We always have the hope and the future in Christ and that gives us the strength to persevere through the tricky and challenging times.

Erin Smalley: How would you say both of those concepts then impact your marriage?

Kristen Roche: There are always ups and downs to every relationship. And when I think of Hollywood movies of marriage, it's just all rainbows and sunshine and no laundry and no fighting and no screaming baby at midnight, no job loss or global pandemic or any of the crazy things that none of us can anticipate. That's not reality.

And so being able to have an eternal perspective is that anchor, even in the ups and downs of life and the ups and downs of marriage. And I think I've been guilty of looking to my spouse to be my anchor through the challenging times when, in reality, that's not their burden to bear. Of course we want a partner in life, but Christ is our anchor ultimately. And so to have that be our perspective, I think helps our marriages in a lot of ways.

Ashley Durand: I was going to say something similar along the lines of that when my identity is found in Christ instead of in my success as a wife or a mother, I can actually love my husband better and I can do a better job at being a wife and mother because I'm not living for their approval. I'm not living for the perfect standard. I'm okay with not measuring up because I know who Jesus says I am is enough. And so that helps me to be a better wife and to be okay with not meeting my standard that I have set for myself.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Well, we know we love what you're saying because otherwise we begin to idolize marriage and turn, like you're saying, then we start to perceive that that's where we're getting our identity, our fulfillment, I mean, all those things.

When you talk about that idea of emptiness and Erin, so maybe I'll just, I love this because I'm here with three moms, three wives. What do you guys wish husbands better understood about that season with young kids when you feel so depleted, you feel so empty? Like, what maybe what do we not really understand about what that's like for you guys?

Ashley Durand: That's a great question. I think one thing is we want to be good wives. We want to be there for our husbands and we want to give them all of our attention. But we feel very divided between the thousand things on our mental to-do list and all of the other priorities that we have. It's not that we're choosing to put other things first or our kids first, it just feels hard for us to balance it all.

Kristen Roche: I think a lot of husbands want to fix problems and that's a good thing. Not all problems can get fixed, though. And I think just having the emotional support of someone who empathizes, someone who's a shoulder to cry on, someone who will give you a hug, sometimes that's what's most needed as opposed to trying to find a solution to the problem per se.

Erin Smalley: Especially when it's perceived that we're the problem to be fixed. And I don't know that you ever did that, but...

Dr. Greg Smalley: Well, I'm sure I did. Because like, I don't think I really understood my own emotions, much less yours. Like, I didn't want to deal with my own. So when you get emotional, I would just look at you like, you know, starry-eyed and glazed over, just going, I don't have a clue what to do. So certainly, I mean, that was a part of why I would probably default to, well, how could I fix this?

Erin Smalley: But what I know now, if I was to go back, I wish I would have used my voice more to say, "Hey, I'm dying here. I'm drowning. I've got four people, four little people who are depending on me." Because I think if I had invited you in more, you would have felt more successful knowing what I needed.

Because now he does so much more. I'm like, "Wait, you're taking them all to the dentist now?" And well, not the adult ones, they can take themselves. But I just think, man, I wish I would have used my voice to say, "Hey, I really could use your help here." And I think I was trying to hit that standard and meet the mark and get it all done and it was my job versus letting you inviting you into that space because now we do it so much better now as a team.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Yeah, I like that. I don't think the issue was that you weren't inviting me in.

Erin Smalley: You just weren't responding.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Well, and here's probably, maybe, sometimes, you know. But so let me ask you guys this, there what we see with couples a lot of the time is that stupid argument of who's more tired. That can be a big problem, right, during the season where everybody's feeling that. So often when you would talk about that, in my mind I'm like, "Okay, I was, you know, outside of the house and I'm dealing with all these crazy people at work."

Erin Smalley: "But you traveled and you got to sleep all night and you got a meal in a restaurant."

Dr. Greg Smalley: Yes.

Erin Smalley: "Without children screaming!"

Dr. Greg Smalley: Yes. And now if I was voting, 100 percent women win in terms of exhaustion, business, so I get that. But at the time though, that was really hard for me because it just, it felt unfair. Well, because I think that the issue often for me is I feel invisible. And not that's not Erin's thing, I just that was my wound from, you know, growing up. And so often you would talk about, you know, feeling exhausted and tired and I'd be like, "Well, doesn't she see me and you don't you think I'm tired?" But do you guys go through that? Do you ever have those moments where who's doing more, who's more tired? Yeah, and how do you guys manage that?

Ashley Durand: Very relatable. Yeah, I think one thing that I've realized is that it's okay to in when we're both exhausted, to just let some tasks go and that I don't have to be so task-oriented and get every single, the dishes don't have to be done at the cost of my relationship with my husband.

There have been times, one of the stories I wrote about in the book was we had just moved into a new house and I had a lot of grand ideas for how we were going to make this house beautiful. We were putting in new floors, painting. And I can be very Type A, I want to get everything done and then we can relax. But my husband wanted to go on a family bike ride.

And so we went on a bike ride and we got into a huge fight about which direction we were going on the bike ride and we're pedaling and he's way ahead of me and I'm pedaling my feet are so mad and it was just so ridiculous. And the Lord brought to my mind a Bible verse in Proverbs that says the wise woman builds her house, but a foolish woman tears hers down with her own hands.

And it was like the Holy Spirit whispered to me there's more than one way to build a home. And it's not just getting all your tasks done. Your words and the way that you love each other matters more than making your home beautiful and kind of what's the point of having a beautiful home if your if your family is at animosity. And so that week we didn't we didn't mow the lawn. We went out to the beach and had a family picnic and it was like I had to realize that it's okay to not have a perfect standard and to say some things can wait. And I think it was good for even my kids to see that we can be okay with imperfection.

Erin Smalley: I always say for your generation, of course you guys have social media and it seems like that places so much more pressure on you guys to hit that mark because you're seeing what everybody else is doing. How do you manage that?

Kristen Roche: That's a great question. I feel the same way. I don't spend a lot of time on social media to be honest. I've just had that conviction that my life is in person and I don't want to be spending tons of time on my phone or on the computer. It's meant to be addictive. Yes, it is. So once you get sucked in, it's hard to get out of the spiral.

So thankfully, you know, I feel like the Lord has helped me to create some boundaries and I don't I think I've almost gone too far in that direction because I miss out on a lot of connecting with people through social media. So I think there is a good balance that can be struck. But there is that comparison we were talking about that earlier. You know, you can compare yourself to endless numbers of people and you only see certain snapshots of their lives and it's not a picture of reality. And so to have the discernment to realize, okay, that's just a small snippet. They're still having fights, they're still going through hard things that we don't necessarily see online. So true, so true.

Dr. Greg Smalley: How do you guys then, sorry I'm going to perseverate on some of what we've been talking about because I'm super curious because I know as husbands we often are trying to figure out so how do we then best support you, so our wives, in those moments where you are feeling empty, you are feeling exhausted, worn out? Because certainly we talked about that the arguing who does more, who's more tired doesn't work.

Erin Smalley: We actually made it a rule we would not have that conversation anymore. It took us to such a bad place. It did. We finally realized why are we talking about this? It escalated and it does nothing good.

Dr. Greg Smalley: So how could we best then support you in those moments to where you're just, I mean, you've got little kids, you just you're tired and exhausted and worn out, empty?

Ashley Durand: I think that's a great question. I'd say not minimizing our exhaustion and just affirming, "Yeah, you have done a lot." And let maybe let me take the kids for an hour and you can go out, go get a coffee, go take a nap, you know, whatever it is that you need at that moment. Or my husband's been really great about letting me have girls' nights once a month, just recognizing the need for a break and affirming that and supporting those opportunities.

Kristen Roche: I know it's meant a lot to me whenever my husband will just step in and help without having to be asked. Like, "Hey, honey, can you do the dishes?" feels like I'm a nagging wife, like I don't have anything left, please can you just do the dishes? Whereas if he just takes that initiative, sees something that needs to be done and does it, it's like, "Oh, thank you."

Erin Smalley: Because what message does that send you when he steps in and does something that you're like, "I don't need to do it"?

Kristen Roche: It feels like he sees me. It's like, oh, he sees me, he sees the need, he's willing. Because I know he would be willing if I asked him, but for him to take that initiative just really means a lot and like, I value you, I want to do this for you. It's just such a servant-hearted thing I think to be able to step in and like do the dirty work, you know, wash people's feet, do the things that Christ demonstrated in that way.

Ashley Durand: Yeah, and it's like we're in this together. It's not all on your shoulders to do. You're not alone.

Dr. Greg Smalley: I think beyond that, like we we tell a story to where I came home from work, Erin had gotten home earlier, so she was working full-time. So she had kids, just everybody, like it was just the bewitching hour, the chaos, trying to get dinner going, everybody just so I walk in, you can feel like I felt like, oh man, like you're, you know, not like hey, what's wrong with you and why is everybody I but I could genuinely just yeah, unhinged. And so I just said to her, "Hey, how can I help?" And she that's what she literally said was, "You know what? You're a big boy. You're an adult. Look around. Just do something. Like jump in."

And I was so offended at first going, "Uh, I was being so kind to offering like I can see, like what do you want from me?" But it was the problem, it was the message that I was the yes. Yeah, the message that this was all mine. Like this chaos, this dysregulation, all of it was mine. Like I want to know, I mean the deeper question was I wanted to know we're in this together. That you're with me. That I can't carry all this alone because it's too much.

You did nothing wrong. And that's what I've learned is going, oh, that just that question, "How can I help?" just simply implies you're really ultimately responsible for all this. And in this moment, I'm in a good mood, maybe I'll help you. So I like what you're saying.

Because you guys all so said something else that I think lately I've been really starting to clue into more, but I don't think the average husband really understands the mental load that you guys carry. Very different than I mean, we can I can feel just as tired, just as exhausted. I mean, we you know, we can argue that all day long. But I don't think I really have ever understood kind of the mental load aspect of how that's different.

Erin Smalley: The research is strong.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Yeah, so maybe you guys could explain like what what is that and what what is that like to feel like you're carrying the mental load maybe at times alone?

Ashley Durand: I'll give you an example. So this week coming we flew out to Colorado and my kids stayed behind. And I was thinking through the list of what does my kid need to bring for show and tell, what kind of lunches are they going to pack, where's their car seat's going to be, who's going to pick up them from this time to transport them to this time, and the groceries in the house and what am I packing and you know it's just like a thousand things on my list to do. And yeah, you just I don't know if I even voiced any of those things out loud, but it's all in my head. Yes, yes. So I definitely understand the mental load part of it.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Yeah, because I don't think the average guy like it's hard for me to multitask and so it's easy for me, like this morning just helping our daughter, our youngest get ready to go on a trip. Like I was able to like hold that one like activity. Like I need to wake up, I need to make sure she's in the car and her stuff is there and let's go.

Erin Smalley: Yes. But right because I think there is something different that I don't think we fully, guys, fully understand about that mental load. Well because then I got up several hours later but I was looking around going did she remember this? Did she remember that? Oh my word did we give her cash? Did things that I don't know that you would ever really perseverate on like I do.

Dr. Greg Smalley: What's the impact of maybe that mental load that a lot of moms, wives carry? Just again differently, I'm not criticizing us guys, I'm just saying I it just it's different. What's the impact of that?

Kristen Roche: I have come to realize recently that headspace is a very real thing. And once my headspace is at capacity, it's like if I put one more thing in there, it's going to snap. So you may have asked me to do something, I totally missed it because I was already at capacity. And just having grace for that and realizing okay, I can see she's on overload, maybe I'll hold off on asking for whatever or I'll send her a text so she has something on her phone to remind her or I'll just do it myself or you know having grace for that and empathy. And yeah, appreciating that spot.

Erin Smalley: So important, so important. And I'm guessing most men, and now we can ask Greg... I will represent... would you say you were aware of that or not?

Dr. Greg Smalley: I was not aware because I just didn't experience it in the same way. I we tell the story, it's a stupid example but it made it's when the light bulb went off for me is when during COVID Erin, you know we had everybody home. She's like "I ain't cooking for all y'all. You're all adults. Like you figure out who's going to cook."

Erin Smalley: Sounds like I set really good boundaries.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Consistently. No, but boundaries are good. I'm sorry. And I don't all very appropriate so please hear me I'm not I'm not making light or saying you did that wrong. Like that's you should have said that exactly the way you said it. And so somehow I was elected chef and I'm horrible but I was like, "All right, I'll try."

But what I started realizing because in our home whoever cooks the other cleans. And so Erin's just a great cook and so I would then clean. But there was never a moment during the day that I would think "Oh, do I have the right soap and to where where's that sponge? Is that clean? Is the dish towel ready?" Like I would never like you just clean and whatever.

But that's what I started doing is I would think about "Oh man, what am I cooking today and oh what time do I need to start looking in the freezer for what we have and oh what if we don't have do I have time to go the..." Like that's when will they have it? Right, that's when the light bulb went off for me going, "Uf, is this what your life has been like?" And she kind of smiled and said, "Mm-hmm." She didn't have to say anything. But but to me that's that mental load. You're and and that's the dangers that that you feel alone in that. Because I didn't even recognize it was there. So how do we make sure that you guys don't feel alone in that mental load space?

Ashley Durand: Well first I think it's important to recognize that it's actually like a really cool gift that God gave men a different way of thinking and processing. It's not like better or worse to have the mental load that we have. It's amazing that God brought a man and a woman's brains into a marriage together to complement each other. And I've appreciated that about my husband that he's not completely stressed and overwhelmed with all the things because then when I am he's very willing to jump in and say "What can I take off of that mental load and help arrange or plan?" and he's not already consumed with his own list of mental load. So I think that is a very intentional thing that God did is bringing the differences together. So just voicing voicing out loud what I need and then listening to and being willing to jump in is helpful.

Kristen Roche: I was also thinking very similarly because I can see the ways that my husband thinks that kind of fills in the gaps of the way that my brain works. And so I really do think as by God's design that he brings different functioning brains together to create the full package if you will. So I really love how that comes into play.

I think if I were to choose a piece of advice maybe like I can think of times when I've voiced a need or like "Hey can you do this?" and he's like "Why is that a big deal? Why do I need to do that right now? Why is that the thing that you need?" and then I have to go... you just need to relax. So helpful. Is that not a good response? No probably not. But then I have to go through like 20 things that led me to that one request or one decision like well we need this for this and then there's that and then I won't have time to get it then. So like explaining the 20 things that went into that one request takes longer than if he had just said "Okay sure."

Erin Smalley: So tell us in this season with having younger kids what have you found works to support the marriage and to work on the marriage amidst the mental load, the neediness of kids, and pouring out all day long? What have you guys found to be the secret to supporting your marriage?

Ashley Durand: I feel like it's you know always something we're learning and growing in but definitely making time to just talk at the end of the day is really nice like after we put the kids to bed we make sure that they get to bed early enough so that we have time together and if it's just sitting on the couch and talking about our day or you know whatever it is it's just nice to make sure that we have time to connect. And even like a text throughout the day. "Thanks for making the coffee" or you know thanks for XYZ goes a long way.

Kristen Roche: I think for me I've noticed that we can land in one of two cycles and they're both contagious. There's either the selfless cycle or the selfish cycle. And you were talking about that conversation like who's more tired lands in the selfish cycle and we're like "No I'm more tired. No I'm more tired." And you're trying to look out for yourself and make sure you get your needs met. And it's not bad to get your needs met but it kind of dissolves into this dysfunctional place.

And I think the converse is true also like when I make a small gesture of selflessness like I'm going to do this thing for my husband that's contagious. He's like "Oh you see me you love me" and then he feeds off of that and he does something selfless for me and it just is like an upward cycle rather than a downward cycle.

Ashley Durand: I will add too another thing is having my own personal time with the Lord makes me just a lot better at being a wife. And when my husband is doing the same thing then we're both filled up separately and we don't need each other to like fill I mean you still need to be pouring into their love tank but you don't need it as much you already have your identity full. And so that really impacts your marriage when you're not striving so hard all the time to win more love or affection. You already have it.

Dr. Greg Smalley: What's helped you guys as you navigate some of those big parenting issues you've got to work through?

Kristen Roche: I guess as much as possible putting myself in his shoes. Like okay why did he take that approach or what is it from his upbringing that would make him think that way or why did he react in that way and just taking a moment to pause and consider "All right if I were in his place and I had his personality and his upbringing how does that all play into what he did?"

Ashley Durand: I think remembering that we're on the same team. That remember who the real enemy is is the devil and our spouse though it might feel sometimes like they're the enemy we are on the same team working for the same goal to raise our kids and just yeah we need to make sure that we're not treating them like the enemy. And also realizing that my way isn't always the best way even though I may have been raised a certain way. It's so hard. Because I loved you know the way I was raised but the way he was raised was good too and it can be okay to try a different way and to accept that there might be more than one good way to do whatever it is so.

Dr. Greg Smalley: I know for us just continuing to remind myself I love the team you know the empathy's great but just there has to be room for both of us. Like I just just to be able to say to myself you know what would I probably respond that way or would I have done that no but I mean Erin's their mom and she deserves to to have I mean you are included there's room for you as a mom in the way you uniquely do that.

Erin Smalley: In the best way to address that is right in the moment right in front of the kids. Because then that goes so well. As a counselor I sit with couples all day long and the parenting stuff I we talk so much about parenting which I never expected in marriage counseling but it's one of the biggest conflicts and that is one of the biggest scenarios that individuals will say like that hurts me that's embarrassing humiliated if you challenge that right in front of the kids. And so we often talk about well we do this as well that we'll kind of look at each other and we know okay we're going to step into the other room or we're going to have a follow-up conversation to address whatever happened and I like what you're saying Ashley too that we both matter. We're on the same team and so figuring out what works for both of us.

Dr. Greg Smalley: You guys again mothering on empty what a great resource and we just we love your humility the wisdom you've gained and just your willingness to to talk about hey here's what goes on for us and here's how we how we've dealt with that. So thank you so much for just being here with us.

Erin Smalley: I was so happy when I walked into the studio and saw Ashley and Kristen here today. Just what a joy and so fun to hear more about what they're doing and the book they've written together, Mothering on Empty.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Yeah, and I felt like I had a coaching session from the three of you. But because it was really good. I mean it was great to kind of think about from a husband's standpoint, you know, what is the difference between kind of this exhaustion and emptiness that you can feel at times and how do we come alongside you. I appreciated they said, well, you know, we encourage her to ask, you know, or even as a husband, like "Do you need a break?" and send you off into a, you know, with some friends or just just some alone time.

Erin Smalley: I've always thought the wisest men are the ones who encourage their wives to have female friendships because sending your wife out with some female friends, she's going to come back with more to give. And so the smartest men know that and they see it when she gets back because she has more to offer, not just him but the kids and the household.

Dr. Greg Smalley: See, I'm locking that one in. I hear you. Which is true, I mean, I've seen that play out, you know, a million times in your life and in how important those relationships are but really being able to have breaks from the kids probably from me as well and just to have some alone time and yes, your friendships are such an important part of that.

But I think too, I'm just I've been on this kick lately because I think I've really started to understand it, which is this whole idea of mental load. And certainly I can recognize, "Oh, you're tired, you're worn out, you've been around the kids," but making sure that I'm asking you, you know, with the mental load that you carry around our kids and our family and our marriage, "Do you feel alone in that?"

And if you feel alone, I mean, tell me about that one. I want to care about it, but I want to better understand how I can help support you even though I know that I'm not going to carry that same mental load that you do. I can I feel like I'm doing that a little bit better. I mean, I should probably ask you if that's true or not. At least I'm more aware and I'm trying to be intentional to not want Erin to be the only one that has to carry the mental load around our kids' family and our marriage. But just asking you, yeah, "Do you feel alone in that?" or "Are there places within that mental load where you feel alone?" Because I can always just care with you and just go, "Man, I'm, yeah, I don't know if I can pick that up, but I can sure just be here, be present there with you."

Erin Smalley: And I would say today versus even 15, 20 years ago, night and day. Because I don't know that you were aware or that I was aware of what was really going on. And like I said in the interview that I I felt like it was my job to carry it all with the kids. And not that you were absent, but I definitely did a lot of it on my own. And it means the world to me now to have you engaged in that and to be aware of the load, not just with the family, but my load with school, my load with private practice, my load coming here, as well as you carry a load as well.

But like we talked about, our brains are different. And I'm running through the list continuously. You will tell me about, "In the middle of the night, I woke up and I was thinking about blah, blah, you know, this and that and XYZ," and I just I just want to crawl up and take a nap just hearing what that's like for you. My favorite was when we had younger kids and you'd be like, "Oh, we have an event this weekend." And I'm like, "Ah, so what are we going to do with these children of ours?" And for you, you're like, "Oh, we'll find someone." And I would be absolutely freaking out, going, "I can't just leave my kids with someone." Not that you didn't care, but you just weren't aware in the same at the same level of the stress of that for a mom.

Dr. Greg Smalley: We have neighbors and people at church, I'm sure, would do fine. It makes sense. And that's I did a talk to a mom's group here recently, and the title was "What Every Husband Wished His Wife Knew About Him." And although I didn't talk about this, I would add that to the list of just going, I'm not sure you understand how foreign of a concept that is, this idea of mental load. And so, not an excuse, but but just an understanding that that really is a foreign concept. And therefore, let's talk about that and I want to hear your experience and what that looks like for both of us.

And so, Erin and I would encourage you guys, I mean, have that conversation. Let's talk about this concept of mental load. What does that look like for both of us and just begin with that awareness? And then wrap up with, "And I never want you to feel alone." So how do I lean into those mental load spaces and make sure that you feel like I'm present there with you?

So, you know, if your marriage feels like it's going through some dark days, you know, not only is it important to stay plugged into God's word, but it's also important to make sure that we're taking good care of ourselves, you know, whole person, heart, soul, mind, and strength. And those imbalances within our body, I mean, that can lead to depression, it can create anxiety, and and we're not saying that's the only cause when couples don't feel connected, but certainly that can play such a huge part.

Erin Smalley: Just like we tune up our cars, it's important to do a marital tune-up every now and then. Whether that's counseling or talking with a pastor or marriage professional, remember you can always call our counseling line at 1-800-A-FAMILY if you need some help. Or you can take our free assessments online. There's the Marriage Assessment as well as the Reactive Cycle Assessment. And both are amazing.

The Marriage Assessment, taking that with your spouse, you're going to learn all kinds of things about what you're really strong in, and then as well as the areas to grow in. And so it's looking at both. I'm sure you're already thinking about all those in a comprehensive way.

And the Reactive Cycle Assessment, you each get to take the assessment and learn your side of your conflict cycle, and then it puts it together so you can see the whole thing. And most couples when they see it go, "Wow, yep, that's it. That's what happens when we have conflict, and it's the same thing that's been happening since we got married." And it's quite eye-opening and helps so much with self-awareness. But there's also an additional about 20 pages that you can print that talks all about how do you break out of your conflict cycle.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Yeah, and so some of you, as you take that, you're going to feel stuck. You're going to feel hopeless, helpless, that, man, we're just in a season to where, yeah, what exactly the reactive cycle is showing us, we're just we're feeling so stuck. And that's why we have this amazing program called Hope Restored. So it's a it's a marriage intensive. It's like going to a marriage ER. These are some of the best therapists on the planet around marriage, and you're going to experience incredible hospitality. But therapists who who can help you guys really dig deep, get to the root of what's going on, better understand the reactive cycle, and how to break out of that. So it's a fantastic resource. We'll put the link here in the show notes. Be sure to check that out. So many couples we've had over like 15,000 couples go through that. And about 81 percent of those couples are still together. So there's amazing hope here at Hope Restored.

Erin Smalley: And if you'd like to get a copy of Ashley and Kristen's book, Mothering on Empty, each chapter is about three or four pages and it's full of practical advice for moms and marriages on what to do when expectations shift, when exhaustion sets in, and even when there's anger. It's an inspiring book and you can get your copy by going to our show notes.

Dr. Greg Smalley: All right, now it's time for your questions. You know, and this question, I mean, it's a serious one.

Erin Smalley: It's from Nathan who writes: "Greg and Erin, I think I'm too emotionally and mentally immature or stupid to lead my wife. I have such a difficult time even talking to her. All throughout our relationship, she has done most of the talking. I am just happy to be spending time with her. Finally, there was this girl who was interested in me, and she is gorgeous, smart, and fun. 13 years of marriage and three kids later, we are practically roommates. We haven't slept together for fun in months. The only time we have had sex over the last year was because she wanted another baby. I want to talk to her about important issues in our relationship, but I don't know how. I say very little and have a difficult time even finishing coherent thoughts. Anytime I try to begin a conversation, I panic. I'm not even sure what to talk about most of the time. Sometimes I think about ending my life so I don't have to subject her to a relationship with someone with such difficulty in verbal communication. I would want her to find someone she can talk to and be able to unload her mental burden while also knowing they can respond intelligently. Any advice?"

Dr. Greg Smalley: Yes. Nathan, thank you so much for reaching out. And I gotta tell you, man, as a brother, I want you to hear me. You are not stupid. You are overwhelmed. You're discouraged. The fact that you care this much, you haven't checked out. And that is a big part of the battle is to be present. Your wife doesn't need a perfect communicator. She needs you. This isn't about communication. This is about some of those deeper emotions that are probably getting triggered and stirred off for you, Nathan.

Erin Smalley: And it sounds like you are experiencing some anxiety. I even wondered as I was reading, maybe you have a social phobia. I don't know. You didn't say how you function in other areas of your life. But I would take the word stupid out and just put the hat of curiosity on because that's going to shut him down every time that he criticizes himself, judges himself. Don't judge you. Show up for you with curiosity and even have a conversation with your wife.

I can imagine how meaningful it would be for you to go to her—and if you don't feel like you can say it, write it—and give it to her that, "Hey, I'm having a really hard time initiating conversation with you, and I don't know why. And this has probably been a long-term pattern, but you know, just bringing that up, bringing it into the light is going to help her so much because I'm guessing she's noticed and is wanting connection and that would bring authentic connection. And then you can go, okay, what do I need to do? Do I need to practice conversations? Because I am guessing she would be game to help you in this."

Dr. Greg Smalley: Yeah, because Nathan, one, understand leadership is not having the right words. Leadership is simply showing up, staying present, you know, and telling the truth. And I tell you, one of the best things I'd encourage you to do just on a real practical way to deal with this, that I've met with other men who, same thing, just get flustered as they try to express what's going on. Sometimes because we're not taught to really be comfortable with emotions or to how do we talk about them.

That all of that can really shut us down. And I had a good friend and what he did is he started just simply writing down on the computer, on your phone, on a tablet, what he wanted to express and say to his wife and really spent some time praying about that, crafting that, to where it was well-organized because then you don't have to remember all that.

And then simply saying to her, "Hey, um, it sometimes I just my words get jumbled and it's hard to communicate, so I'd like to read some things to you and then we can at the end kind of circle back and talk about those." And then just start. Just have that simple structure to where you're talking about how you've been feeling. Write down, "I've been feeling inadequate, overwhelmed, disconnected." Let her see your heart. You can always offer something that you appreciate about her so she doesn't feel like this is all just criticism about what she's not doing right, whatever. But Nathan, just keep it simple, short sentences, but write out exactly what you want to communicate, and then you have it there.

So you can get all of that out and then you guys, she can repeat that back, she can ask questions, and then you guys can have a very different conversation minus then the pressure that you're feeling to say the right words, remember everything. And it's such just a simple tool. Erin and I would so strongly encourage you to use that to be able to have the conversation that you want to have.

Erin Smalley: Because it's remembering, all she's seeing is you showing up and being quiet. She has no idea what's going on under the waterline. And when we let our spouse in to what's really going on, then they can begin to make sense of what they're seeing. Because often when we see something or experience quiet or he's not engaging with me, maybe she's interpreting that of he doesn't care or he's he's not with me or there's something wrong with me. Yes, she'll fill in the blanks. Yes, and we usually do that in a negative lens. So just letting her in is going to help so much because she you can even say, "When I'm quiet, this is what's really going on."

And go from there. The thing that hurts me so much in this email is the thought that you would think about ending your life as a result of this. So I encourage you, if that is coming up and you are contemplating that, please call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 1-800-273-8255.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Well, Nathan, thank you so much for your question. And not only are we going to send you a copy of our book, Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage, but we've also sent this message to our counseling team and they should be reaching out to you soon if they haven't already. This is why we're here. You know, these are the kinds of family situations that you help when you give financially to Focus on the Family. Every dollar that you share is poured back into helping families. So thank you for giving.

Erin Smalley: Well, thank you for joining us on Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Yes, thank you for following the show and sharing it with your friends and family. We want you to have a seat at the table every week as we help you and your spouse to have a lifelong satisfying marriage.

Erin Smalley: Yeah, we want to see you guys growing spiritually as individuals and as a couple. So you can turn right around and invest in other couples to help them build thriving marriages.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Well, thanks for listening. We'll talk to you again next Monday about this crazy little thing called marriage.

Jim Daly: Live your truth. A lot of people say that, don't they? But truth isn't something we decide. God has decided it for us. And it's our job as believers to share his truth with a world in need. I'll encourage you to do that through my podcast, Refocus with Jim Daly. I visit with fascinating guests about important topics like gender confusion, cancel culture, and more, while helping you share God's love with others. Listen at refocuswithjimdaly.com.