Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage

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Guest (Female): We'll go to this thing, but this is it. If this doesn't work, we're done. What we have now, it's way more than we ever had before and that I ever even dreamed of in the marriage.

Narrator: Discover more at hoperestored.com. That's hoperestored.com.

Greg Smalley: Welcome to Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage. I'm Dr. Greg Smalley.

Erin Smalley: And I'm Erin Smalley. Today we're going to continue the conversation with Kate and JJ and continue to hear about their marriage journey as well as the reality of daily intimacy.

Greg Smalley: I tell you what, the Tomlins know how to have a candid conversation. We got into some things with them that, honestly, I was so thankful they were willing to say it because I know that all of us have moments, maybe seasons—for some, they've been long seasons—where we're just beyond frustrated with each other, but you feel like, "I don't really like my spouse in this moment or in this season."

I think we all understand that we're going to have those kinds of challenges and therefore it's important to discuss them openly and honestly. That's why I so appreciate the Tomlins, is their willingness to talk about some of these things that maybe we shy away from talking about.

Erin Smalley: Do we have to have a conversation later?

Greg Smalley: I feel like there's something that you're not telling me. Maybe this is a moment, a season where you're frustrated with me. I don't know. Let's get into it.

Erin Smalley: We'll get into it. Okay, good. And to help, we are going to be a bit playful later. Greg and I are going to talk about how you and your spouse can role-play as secret admirers. This is going to be fun, especially in light of Valentine's Day just past and National Marriage Week. Let's spice it up.

Afterwards, we have a question from a woman who would like some advice. She's struggling with a number of physical and mental concerns and doesn't feel like she's getting the support that she needs from her husband of 15 years. As a result, she's feeling a lot of resentment towards him. As always, we're so glad you're listening and you don't want to miss this episode. Now let's get back to our conversation with Kate and JJ.

Kate Tomlin: We're so excited to have JJ and Kate Tomlin back with us. Thank you guys for hanging out with us for yet another episode.

JJ Tomlin: We're so excited to be here. Let's get into it, guys. This is so fun.

Greg Smalley: We talked a lot about dating stuff and dating heading into marriage and what you guys have learned and you guys entering into marriage and entering into ministry together and all just really good stuff. You guys are so well-spoken and have such great information.

But let's shift into marriage. What would you say has been the biggest surprise for you guys as you entered into marriage? What has surprised you?

Kate Tomlin: Nothing. We knew everything. We had a crystal ball and we knew everything that was going to happen in the years of marriage. 24/7 fun. It's like the Lego Movie. Everything is awesome.

People always say they're shocked to find out we've only been married three and a half years. So we are definitely still in that newlywed phase. But what has expedited our marriage, I would say, is also the fact that we work together and we are together a lot every day, all day long.

Things that have been surprising: I'm very grateful—I will first say and I'll just toot our horn on the fact that—I'm very grateful for the pre-engagement and pre-marital work we did before getting married because it really helped us identify what were going to be our future problems, which were our future problems.

I would say we had a good awareness of some of those things. But I don't even know what my biggest shock in marriage at the beginning was. What was yours?

JJ Tomlin: Well, to go off that, we live in a hyper-awareness culture, hyper-therapy, hyper-aware. But that's only half of it. When the rubber meets the road, which is that other 50 percent, it's how difficult it can be and how much your flesh really is.

If you even have 1 percent flesh left in your sanctification process, just how deep, it's like the Mariana Trench, just how deep that crevasse can go in your selfishness and your flesh and how much you are just focused on yourself. The self-protection, the defensiveness, the entitlement—that for me has been a huge journey of looking in the mirror and not veering off to look at Kate and what she's doing wrong.

The poison I drank for the longest time in the first year, year and a half of marriage was: if only Kate would change this, then our marriage would be so much better. What it did was it just excused me right from the table. There was no ownership and there was no change and there was no growth. I just built that resentment over time where I just looked at Kate.

We love Dr. Gottman and the Gottman Institute. That's where that resentment leads to contempt. That's just pure acidity in the mixture of relationship. Until I was able to stop focusing on Kate, start taking ownership for JJ and JJ only, and also repent to Kate.

There was a huge moment of just listening to "The Bait of Satan" and John Bevere after the first year and a half of marriage where I had to repent and get on my knees and apologize to Kate for all the resentment and hatred I held towards her that I just didn't communicate, all that unresolved pain that I held against her. She knew that, but I was just quiet. It was just that quiet apathy that silently kills a healthy marriage. It was a hard first year or two for us.

Greg Smalley: Thank you for your honesty. What was the turning point for you? So many people stay so focused on their spouse. I did the same thing.

Erin Smalley: We have so much control over our spouse.

Greg Smalley: Exactly. I wanted Erin to be made in my image. I wanted her to do certain things. What was the moment? How did you figure that out?

JJ Tomlin: It was just the Holy Spirit and reading "The Bait of Satan" and just seeing what resentment, what holding offense does and gives the foothold of the enemy into your life. It was just the Holy Spirit. He told a story there about basically being wronged by a boss. The Holy Spirit not only equips you to forgive someone in your heart, but to proactively move towards them and forgive them and also ask for repentance, even if you've been the one who was initially wronged.

That just blew my mind. More importantly, you start to see the gravity of your sin, which is amazing how little you really and how much you justify it. I just realized, I think I was mortified and heartbroken the day I realized how much resentment I held towards Kate. I use the word hatred, and it has shock value, but it's really true. That's what it really becomes over time. I hated my wife. This is the woman I made a covenant to love and serve and die for.

My best example is this: we still went out on date night, but I'd much rather have been on the golf course, working out, having fun, hanging with the boys than on a date with her. Until that resentment changed and I forgave her, I forgave myself, I repented, that joy of the relationship came back immediately.

From that moment on, I enjoyed spending time with my spouse again. I loved her. It's amazing how powerful that repentance can be. It just humbles you and just restores and softens your heart. From that moment, it's been—not always perfect—but just a different journey. It's like literally two marriages. I just can't explain it.

Kate Tomlin: Game changer.

Greg Smalley: Kate, what was that like for you to have your husband come to you and confess and to repent and to even hear him say, "I had so much resentment and hatred"?

Kate Tomlin: I could relate because I felt like I was on my own journey of experiencing the same kind of thing. When he came to me, it wasn't shocking to me because even though he—I'm an expresser, so I'm going to tell you all the things I'm thinking and feeling and you're going to know—JJ does not. He doesn't lead with that as much. Even though he didn't lead with his resentments towards me through time and he kind of compartmentalized them, I could tell. I could definitely tell. I knew on the date nights this is forced. I knew different moments.

As a wife, it's a delicate dance there. I felt my role in that season was to just pray that our relationship would be restored. Also, simultaneously the Lord had been working on my heart because I have big issues with control. I was also trying to control him in many ways and try to get him to be the way I wanted him to be because I'm Type A, he's Type B. I'm like, "Let's run our house this way, let's do da-da-da-da-da."

Through time, if he doesn't have a voice and he doesn't feel valued and if he just constantly feels like I'm almost like his mommy controlling everything, that of course creates resentment in a man. The advice given on the eve of our wedding at our rehearsal dinner is advice that I wish I had done a bit better the first few years of marriage, which is: make a man feel like a winner and he will be a winner.

But let's take the inverse: if you always make a man feel like a loser, he's going to be a loser. You're going to start seeing him as a loser and then you might treat him as a loser. That is what happened on my end. Of course, he had resentment. I'm not saying it was justified, but in my control and in kind of not being kind and not realizing how many issues with control I truly had and justifying them, I made him really feel like a loser in many different ways.

When he came to me and said all that, there was also a breaking in my spirit of, "But look at what I've also done." We've been working since day one with counselors, which has been awesome. In recent year and a half, two years, we really have cracked some different levels in our marriage or we understand what we call, or our counselors call, the disaster dance: what triggers him and how he responds, and what triggers me and how I respond.

It's very predictable now. We can see and understand where and when we are in that. It's almost always the same story. Now we feel so much more equipped and we know that if that disaster dance just continues and we don't really resolve it and call it out and show up in more kindness towards each other, it's where those roots of resentment will continue to start growing again for him or even for me.

Him saying that to me and coming to me, and I will just speak to this as well as a man, yes, he's younger than me, but there has been such transformation I've seen in him in just stepping up and being more responsible and taking his headship of our marriage so seriously, which was a huge prayer of mine.

In a beautiful way, it's also made me want to be less controlling. While I probably should still not be controlling even if he wasn't that way, it's just amazing how the Lord has shifted him and really grown him and put him in this place where now he's like, "Hey, I'm going to do no phone an hour before bed. You should join me." And I'm like, "What? You're asking me to join you in that? This used to be me asking you to join me in that." And then I'm still on my phone and he's like, "Hey, so when are you going to get off your phone before bed?"

I'm like, "Dang, this guy is really ahead of me and really somebody that I really deeply respect." In the beginning of marriage, that was probably the biggest issue I had was really knowing and showing him respect as a man.

Greg Smalley: As you guys are talking, it brings me back as a young husband because it sounds like JJ, you and I are a lot alike in terms of I'm just very chill, go with the flow, "Whatever, what do you want to do? I'm with you." It was hard for me to gain a real vision for what does leadership mean. I heard that, would hear the sermons, would read that. I couldn't figure it out, especially because Erin has so much strength.

Erin Smalley: That was a kind way to say it.

Greg Smalley: No, it's true. That's a very honoring thing. It's a beautiful thing. But it was hard for me to figure that out. JJ, for guys who are going, "Man, feel the same way. I have no idea. I'm not sure she even wants me to lead." How do you coach a guy who's maybe more on the laid-back end of the spectrum to really embrace those things?

JJ Tomlin: Don't use the word passive, just laid back.

Greg Smalley: Exactly. That's also very kind. Well, otherwise I'd be saying that about myself, so I'm trying to preserve some self-worth here. How do you coach a husband into that sort of role?

JJ Tomlin: The root of that is passivity. You and I both know there's a strength to the easygoing, flexible, and I'm not trying to demonize that. But in Genesis, we look at what happened with Adam and Eve. Adam was given the commandment, not Eve. He was given the responsibility to teach Eve. And then Eve under his watch, he was there when she grabbed the fruit, and what did he do? He watched. He was passive. He said nothing. He did nothing.

The Achilles heel of a man is passivity. It's the rejection of responsibility. That's a lot of times, I would say like you, I'm just a chill, easygoing, flexible guy. But really what it was under the surface was it was an excuse to be lazy and rejection of responsibility. I'm a lazy guy. I didn't want the responsibility and all the work that came with it. It's just easier to chill, say "Whatever you want, honey." But now I'm just on the other end of that where I hate the phrase "happy wife, happy life" because what it really is saying is, "Yeah, be that guy who doesn't care. Let your wife make all the decisions and just chill." That's a sad life to live.

The number one place that I would start is I think every guy needs to hear: "Hey, you have what it takes to be that guy that God created you to be in Christ. You've got what it takes, man. You have got what it takes in Christ to be that dude who I know underneath the surface you feel God created you to be."

I want you to be able to look in the mirror when you go to bed and say, "I gave it my all. I did my best in Christ today for my family, for my job, for X, Y, Z." Until that's activated, I think everything else might be some kind of performative mental thing that might be effective but it's all hype. This is like an eternal purpose and why that God's given you.

Greg Smalley: If you go to Genesis 2:24, what I learned about the "leave and cleave": a man should leave his father and mother and then cleave to his wife. As we really dug into that, "cleave" means close pursuit. That's when I started to learn that there has to be this initiation, this intentional stepping up, this close pursuing her in all these different areas.

You're right. It's easy to be chill, but that's an excuse because it can't ever replace that role that God has offered to us going, "Man, you get this beautiful way to come alongside her and sacrifice for her, but that's going to take pursuing her in all these areas." I love what you're saying.

Erin Smalley: Speaking of pursuing, you guys work with couples around intimacy and you speak about married sex. Would you be willing just to share some of the big issues you're seeing or the challenges that you're seeing couples are dealing with?

JJ Tomlin: We want to teach out of a place of excellence and authority. We've actually reserved teaching on marriage extensively to audiences because we want to come from authority and anointing in it. But from what we've heard and from what we know as far as our peers, there's a lot of silence around it, to be honest.

Erin Smalley: A lot of passivity.

JJ Tomlin: A lot of passivity and a lot of silence is probably what I would say.

Kate Tomlin: There's a lot of silence and I would say a lot of misunderstanding of the covenant of sex that we've seen while helping singles. You see a lot of singles that have maybe reserved themselves for marriage or somebody who, like me, had a really extensive past and then made a re-commitment or decision to not have sex till marriage with a new partner, which is what JJ and I did.

But I think the problem with it and where and we should speak about our wedding night and how amazing that was. I think the problem is some people just have these grand expectations and it's a tight-knuckled thing where they don't ever talk about and connect in other ways. Emotionally, spiritually—all of it is what leads to a healthy intimate relationship.

For me and JJ, it was such a redemption to have our wedding night because while we didn't go in with these grand expectations, we didn't go in, even in the first year of marriage, with thinking, "Oh my gosh, we're going to have sex every night and it's going to be the..." There were some expectations we definitely worked through for sure.

But on our wedding night, there was such a beautiful redemption that happened in that for somebody like me with a big past. I came to the realization that I actually had never experienced true covenantal sex. Even though you can say I had these relations with people in the past, I had never really experienced godly sex. I had never experienced what sex is supposed to be and designed to be.

While I healed and learned that before marriage, it's what made our experience together on the first time we did have sex to be so beautiful and so wonderful and so different because I was so afraid like, "Oh my gosh, am I going to be thinking of all these other things or is this going to be...?" God just really used it to be like the first time I had ever had sex in my actual life. It was so beautiful and so redeeming.

Another thing that we've just really seen: do you want to talk about on our honeymoon, the expectation thing versus reality?

Erin Smalley: We vote that you do. So yes, if we have a vote, we say yes.

Kate Tomlin: On our honeymoon—we're super open about talking about this—I kind of had this expectation. JJ's never had sex before. He's going to want to have sex every day, maybe more than once a day. I'm getting myself hyped up thinking about this, okay, like this is going to be the expectation. And I found that that was not the reality.

JJ might want to connect with me every day potentially, but he didn't really have a desire for more than once a day. I'm just thinking like, this guy is going to be crazy. It was confusing. We ended up talking about it because there started to be these things in my head that started popping up of like, "Oh my gosh, am I not this, that and the other?" Questioning myself, rejection lies that really the enemy are putting there because—or am I, is he unsatisfied with something?

Eventually, when I brought it up to him, what we realized, and I think you should explain this part more, like what was going on on your side for you to feel like you were completely satisfied with just what we were doing.

JJ Tomlin: As a young man, a single guy, I was a virgin when we got married. You just have all these kind of just different expectations. And then you just realize when you actually encounter the real thing and the fruit of it. I was just so satisfied by the real thing that I loved it and I enjoyed it. And I didn't have this crazy libido of two or three or four times a day. I was good.

Kate Tomlin: I think the emotional and spiritual connection.

JJ Tomlin: That, and that's what I mean. The trifecta of having an emotionally, spiritually, physically connected experience is so satisfying and overwhelming. It really makes sex just a part of the fun of the journey, but not the focal point.

If sex was everything, I would have wanted it every single day and every single moment. That's not to demean sex. I think in the—and I'm still that way today—the best sex we have today is when we are emotionally and spiritually unified together in harmony. Then we have the best sex ever. We still have sex as a means of reconnecting when we're not there.

But for me, the best sex has always been just a byproduct of an amazing connected relationship. There's been different times in our marriage where I guess I'm more of the feminine or girly stereotype, where if we're not connected, I don't necessarily always want to have sex because it's super meaningful for me for us to be in unity in that harmony together and know each other and have peace. I don't want the cheap stuff.

Greg Smalley: What we're also hearing is the importance you guys place upon communication in rather that's talking about just the differences between libido, talking about the differences between "Do you need to feel more emotionally, spiritually connected or is sex a way that helps you to connect?" Whatever those conversations are, that's often where couples struggle is they're just they're not talking.

As you think about your marriage, are there other important conversations besides sex that couples really need to be having as you think about your own relationship? What are some of those other important conversations that you guys have on a regular basis?

JJ Tomlin: I'd say the most important conversation we have is what we do. It's called Restoration Therapy with Terry and Sharon Hargrave if you guys are familiar.

Greg Smalley: We are. Friends, yeah, they're good.

JJ Tomlin: That saved our marriage, man. We talk about this journey of a year and a half, two years ago. The real changing point after that repentance was learning the ability to communicate your pain cycle, which is out loud to your spouse.

You say, "Hey, I'm feeling my pain cycle right now." For me, a huge one is I'm feeling unloved, unsafe, and like things are unfair. When I feel that way, I get really entitled, I get really defensive, and I get really apathetic. And then I look at Kate and say, "Instead, I'm choosing to believe that I am loved by God and by you. I am safe right now. I am empowered to make a choice right now. I don't just have to scatter and default to what I used to."

The last one that's changed my life as a man is: "I get to do this. I get to serve you. I get to show up." Instead of constantly viewing things as fair and unfair, I get to. And then I say because I believe that, here's how I'm going to show up: I'm going to lean in instead of withdraw so you get all of JJ. I'm going to humble myself. I'm going to seek to attune to you instead of disconnect. And then I'm going to be resilient and reliable. I say that out loud.

And then guess what Kate does? She does the same thing out loud. And that's the peace cycle. It is amazing that gift of self-regulation in Christ with the Holy Spirit hearing your spouse say that out loud. That's the most important conversation we could have on a daily basis is doing our peace and pain cycle together.

Greg Smalley: Which is so good because you're tapping into like a James 4:1. Why do we fight? Why do we have conflicts? Is it not the desires that wage war? You're calling those things out instead of guessing. Like again, I'm telling you, JJ, you and I, we've got to be brothers in some way. As a middle child, nothing in life is fair. So often I'm lamenting unfair things feel. But to call that out, to name that, to seek God's truth all through that peace cycle that you're talking about, that is such an important conversation.

JJ Tomlin: And the next verses is the harmony of the Holy Spirit in James 4:3. There can be no conflict when you're both walking in the Holy Spirit and the harmony of that. So once we've tasted the fruit of that, you just never want to go back to anything else. Everything else is just a hypothetical intellectual conversation until you experience the fruit of the harmony in the Holy Spirit in both your lives and you just never want to go back to the old way.

Greg Smalley: We just so appreciate how you guys will always bring it back to the Holy Spirit, to our relationship with the Lord, to growing, being sanctified. You did talk about earlier this idea of you want to stay in your lane, so to speak. Erin and I just want to totally refute that and speak over you guys that you've got an incredible message.

God has given you such amazing experiences and the wisdom that you're bringing to these discussions. We're thrilled to know you guys are out talking and ministering and helping couples—married couples—have a stronger marriage. So we're not going to accept that you shouldn't be doing that.

Kate Tomlin: We talk to some of our married couples of friends and we are always open. We love having vulnerable discussions. And then people will at some point find out how long we've been married and they're like, "What?" I'm not saying we have it all figured out, but it's just fun to be able to. We have a very old God living inside of our hearts, so that's a good thing.

Erin Smalley: I can imagine that God is going to use you guys mightily within the marriage realm as well. And I'm sure you have helped so many singles prepare for marriage, which is so necessary. We just wish you the best with having this second baby and a whole another set of ministry opportunities with parenting. You guys are wonderful, so well-spoken. Thank you for your honesty and your vulnerability and just being with us. We really, really appreciate it.

JJ Tomlin: Thank you guys. You've been amazing. Thank you.

Kate Tomlin: Thank you guys.

Greg Smalley: Well, we warned you in the beginning of this episode that this was going to be a very candid conversation. I'm so grateful when our guests are willing to lay out harder issues like, "Hey, there was a season," like JJ was talking about, "that I just really didn't like Kate," and her saying the same thing.

I know you run into that all the time as you're counseling couples. How do you help them begin to manage that, to be honest about what's really going on, how they're really feeling? Where do you go if your spouse is saying, "Yeah, I really don't like you right now. I love you, I'm committed to you, but I don't like you at all"?

Erin Smalley: That's hard to hear. I think it ignites all kinds of fears inside of: what does that mean? You're saying you don't like me and that you're committed to me, but is that really how it's going to go? Of course, we have the enemy whispering lies all over and using absolutes like, "This is never going to change, it's always going to be like this. There's no hope that this season will shift and maybe you'll grow as a result of this."

Often, I think people believe, couples believe, if it's hard, that there's something broken and irreparable, versus viewing that through the lens of we all go through different seasons in our marriage. We are not always going to be on a mountaintop. As we go through the valley, what do we gain from it? How do we walk through those valleys or those seasons where there's distance?

Greg Smalley: For me, it's a terrifying thought because I've said this before, but you know how I feel about this. I always say, "Yeah, I know you love me. Thank you. That's nice to hear. But actually what gives me so much life, what speaks so deeply to my heart is when you say that you like me." So just thinking that there are moments—I'm sure there are in our marriage—but thinking that there are moments or prolonged seasons where you don't like me, that scares me more than the "falling out of love" part of it.

Erin Smalley: I'm guessing most couples, when it's happening, aren't talking about it initially. I know that we've revisited back seasons, past seasons, where I will maybe say, "Yeah, it was a hard season." But what would happen if we talked about it in real time? What would you say?

Greg Smalley: Like right now?

Erin Smalley: No, no, no. No. What would happen if couples were willing to talk about that? What do you need to tell me? You don't like me right now?

Greg Smalley: No, I like you right now. I do. I am so likable that you need to spend some time with the Lord. So that really helps.

Erin Smalley: I promise you that does not help. But no, I'm not feeling like that right this very instant moment. Maybe yesterday. No. It just I wonder, so often it's after the fact so no one knows that it's happening.

I'm guessing most spouses know that they're irritated and not wanting to be close, maybe pushing away from their spouse, but they maybe don't know why. Like what is getting triggered, what's really going on inside of me, and then having a conversation to share that in a kind way—no name-calling or blame—but just being aware of what is going on inside of me that I'm wanting to push away. What's getting triggered? Maybe there's something happening that they would prefer not to be happening.

I know for you and me, we have gone through seasons where it seems like we don't have success with bringing things up when conflict happens and we launch into our cycle quickly. That's just miserable. As I think back, we have done a pretty good job of going, "Okay, that didn't feel good. Can we talk about it?"

Greg Smalley: We were recently in the Chicago area, specifically in Oak Brook, doing a marriage event. It was so fun at this marriage event having a fan of "Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage" come up. She had actually asked us a question we'd answered it and she had one of the signed copies of the book, "Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage." It was so much fun meeting someone who said, "I love the podcast and I've actually asked a question and you guys answered it and here's my book."

From that, as we were flying back, our flights were delayed by about four hours. We ended up home at about 2:00 a.m. Sunday morning. That just I know that that wiped me out. I was more irritable. All that to say that you and I had even an interaction around our kitchen island. We were just standing there talking to our son about something. I just remember being so irritated by something you were saying or how you said it.

Erin Smalley: I don't know if I knew. I was probably too tired to even acknowledge.

Greg Smalley: Why I'm bringing this up is that what I appreciated that you said was, "Oof, that sounded a little harsh."

Erin Smalley: I did? I have no recollection whatsoever.

Greg Smalley: And I said to you, "Yeah, you're right." But in my mind, I was thinking, because I'm really tired, I probably shouldn't even be talking, engaging in any way. But that was different. That was not you being snarky back to me. You just went, "Ouch, that felt a little harsh."

And that's the kind of thing that I see that we're getting better at, is not just simply reacting, getting into the reactive cycle, but actually just repairing it right then. And so it was good. But it was good for me to step back and go, "You know what? I am very tired."

Erin Smalley: Yes. I probably should let everybody know or at least just be very careful and assume that's true for you as well and I'm not going to take anything personally.

Greg Smalley: It's all coming back. Sunday? Do you remember it?

Erin Smalley: No, I don't remember that one. But I do remember how tired you were. I was trying to—I had ordered some new recliners for our living room and needed your help to carry them in.

Greg Smalley: You shop when you're tired, I have noticed that.

Erin Smalley: I needed your help and you were downstairs doing something. I mean, I literally was like, "Are you kidding me? I'm up here putting these together, I'm exhausted, and he's downstairs playing, doing something."

Greg Smalley: I was taking a break, I was playing a video game.

Erin Smalley: Yes. Day to day, these things go on, a momentary like, "No, no, no, let me lift the 150-pound recliner." These things happen. In all couples, even healthy couples have those moments. We just want to encourage you that it's okay.

Greg Smalley: You can either give each other grace and have patience for each other in those moments or, if you need to, like you're saying—and that's what I appreciate about the Tomlins—bring it up. Let's not let that linger.

Erin Smalley: Yes. And like the Tomlins talked about, get help and learn and grow as a result of that season. Anyone can learn how to do conflict better, how to care for their heart, how to manage their emotions, how to engage in safe ways. There's always hope that you can move through that season and be stronger as a result of it.

Greg Smalley: We talked a lot, too, about just intimacy, sex. Again, I appreciate the candid conversation and what the Tomlins were willing to talk about. My dad and a good friend of his, Ted Cunningham, they wrote a great book on this topic.

Erin Smalley: Called "The Language of Sex Study Guide: Experiencing the Beauty of Sexual Intimacy in Marriage."

Greg Smalley: You can find that book as well as lots of other really good resources on the Focus on the Family website. All you have to do is just type in "intimacy in marriage" into the search bar. It's going to pull up articles and podcast episodes and links to all kinds of really, really good information.

If you want, we'd love to get you that book that my dad and Ted Cunningham wrote, "The Language of Sex Study Guide." We can do that for a gift of any amount. If you're able, a monthly gift of any amount helps us to continue to offer things like this podcast. You'll be helping us reach other couples who are searching for answers and helping your podcast family really grow stronger.

Erin and I and our entire team would like to thank you for your generosity. Don't forget, it's safe and secure to give by clicking the link that we'll put in the show notes.

Erin Smalley: Hey Greg.

Greg Smalley: Yes.

Erin Smalley: When you think of a secret admirer, what comes to mind?

Greg Smalley: Aside from a celebrity and maybe their crazy fans stalking them? I don't know, maybe wooing a crush back in high school with some letters, gifts, cards, flowers even.

Erin Smalley: Or leaving a little poem in their locker. I remember I left you a heart-shaped chocolate chip cookie that I made on your front porch.

Greg Smalley: Like when we were dating?

Erin Smalley: Before we were dating.

Greg Smalley: What?

Erin Smalley: Yes, you knew it was me later, but yes, it was Valentine's Day.

Greg Smalley: Was it gluten-free?

Erin Smalley: No, not back then. Well, we're going to have our listeners do a little something like that. For 24 hours, we want you to pretend that you're not a married couple. Now, let's put some boundaries around that. Don't overstep any vows or anything like that or break your covenant.

We're just going to take 24 hours to woo your spouse as their secret admirer. Leave notes, tiny gifts, or riddles throughout the day, kind of like you did before you started dating.

Greg Smalley: I love this idea. Obviously, if your spouse's love language is words of affirmation, maybe the poem would be the way to go. Thinking this through, here's some ideas: you could certainly handwritten note slipped into their work bag, their backpack, briefcase, whatever, or even their lunchbox.

You could say something like, "Someone couldn't stop thinking about you this morning," and how they impact you, maybe something that you find so attractive about them, something that you deeply value about their character or their personality.

Erin Smalley: Or making coffee or breakfast and just having it all already prepared for them with a note signed with a secret symbol.

Greg Smalley: So they'll wonder what stranger's been wandering around their kitchen making them a nice breakfast? I like that. You're a big gifts person, so maybe it's a tiny gift left on their desk or on the counter: chocolate, favorite snack, a lip balm, something simple, something that's not hugely expensive.

Erin Smalley: That's what I want you to do, but I want it on my desk at work.

Greg Smalley: Your counseling office that's locked. How would I get in?

Erin Smalley: You'd have to break in through both doors. That would take some effort.

Greg Smalley: And then from jail, I could finish the rest of the gift, finish the rest of the chocolate. You love those little gifts and often when I go to the grocery store—they're so clever because they always make it so—at least our grocery stores, I've got to go right through the flower department as you walk in.

Greg Smalley: That's why you've been buying more flowers.

Erin Smalley: Even this morning, I was looking at the flowers, the beautiful flowers on my countertop. It's so nice that he's been doing that regularly.

Greg Smalley: They get me with the sunflowers. There's something about a sunflower that I love. My secret admirer has been leaving me flowers.

Erin Smalley: With a note: "Don't tell your husband." I love the creativity of like a scavenger hunt. I've done this with Christmas gifts. I've made our family go on a scavenger hunt to get out of an escape room that I planned. That always goes disastrously.

Greg Smalley: That might take more brain cells than I have currently in the middle of writing a dissertation.

Erin Smalley: Or maybe it's a short voice memo just saying, "I admire your strength more than you know," or, "I admire how hard you work more than you know," or, "I'm enamored with your beauty more than you know."

Greg Smalley: As our podcast family, you guys are so clever and so incredibly creative. We'd love to hear your ideas. In the show notes, just throw what you've done, what you tried, or even some great ideas. We love to hear that sort of feedback from you.

Why this works is that there's something powerful about novelty within the relationship. Not that everything has to be new, but there is something powerful about when we get out of some of the ruts that are easy to get into. Today we have AI which can help a whole lot. "Hey chat, write me a secret admirer poem for my husband," and crank it right out. We do have helpful tools today, but have fun with this and enjoy mixing it up a little bit in your marriage.

This is where the rubber meets the road, so to speak. It's time for Q&A.

Erin Smalley: I do love your enthusiasm to answer our listeners' questions. If you ever have a question, please contact us. Just click on the show notes where it says, "Send us your email or voice memo."

Greg Smalley: Today's question is from Deborah, who writes:

Deborah: I've been married for 15 years. I struggle and I need support with grief, mental health issues, and physical illness. It seems like I get no compassion from my husband. Sometimes he's downright mean. We have two kids, one in elementary and one in college. I've spent years in my own therapy and he's been to a handful of sessions himself.

We have tried couples counseling, but he always looks like the good guy and I look like an emotional mess. I'm not sure I can keep going. He rarely apologizes and when I bring up how I'm feeling, I'm met with so much defensiveness that I end up comforting and reassuring him. I'm growing resentful of his lack of accountability and remorse. What do I need to do for me, and what are some ways I can help him get me?

Greg Smalley: We're so sorry. This is such a painful place to be in. Not only are you dealing with chronic health issues, but it seems like when you reach out to your person—this is the person who you want to know is there for you, who can offer that support and encouragement and validation and empathy—that when you do talk about what's going on, it's kind of you end up having to comfort the person who has hurt you. That can be exhausting and certainly is not sustainable. We're so grateful that you're asking for some help.

Erin Smalley: This is what we hear you saying: there's this painful dynamic of you bring pain or a need to your spouse, he becomes defensive, you end up reassuring him, and your original need disappears and gets set aside, and then resentment builds and grows. This is not sustainable.

However, what I will go back to is: what's in your control? Because you can't control what he does or does not do. But talking about: what do you need to do for you?

Greg Smalley: Maybe it starts with just quit trying to convince him to care. That's not your job. You don't have any control of how he's going to show up. You can't control if he's going to be defensive or not, if he's going to lean in and just anchor yourself in reality, not his reactions. The reality is that you're hurting, that there are things going on that you really are longing for support around.

Erin Smalley: I talk about that a lot throughout the week as I sit with people, that often we give our power away to other people to determine what is true about how we feel or about our circumstances. Really, Deborah, it sounds like you are experiencing chronic pain, which I'm sure is exhausting, as well as some mental health challenges and emotional stuff going on, some grief. That's your reality. He may not understand that, but we want to encourage you: name what is happening accurately and continue to seek support from your individual therapist.

Greg Smalley: What is within your control and what you have power over is how you show up for you as well. Maybe part of what you're looking at is when I'm experiencing these things, how am I caring for my heart? How am I caring for the physical pain? What am I doing when I'm having these moments? Am I ignoring that? Am I stuffing that? Am I dismissing that? Am I judging how I feel? Or are you clear on, "Hey, first and foremost, God gave me this responsibility to care for me"? When I'm having these moments, here's what I'm doing. Here's how I invite God into that process. Now you have two people who are caring for you.

Erin Smalley: Because so often we will ask our spouse to give us something we're not giving ourselves, which is totally unfair. Asking him to care and to have compassion—and that's where I say pull the power back and evaluate: am I first giving myself that? Because that is just not a fair dynamic to go, "I'm not doing this for me, but you do it," because we expect our spouse to give us things that they were never created to be the sole provider of. You've got you, you've got the Lord, and utilize that fully.

Greg Smalley: Now, you obviously you can't make someone develop empathy, feel remorse, or even be the one to hold him accountable. But you can change the conditions under which connection is possible. So this is where we want to turn.

Yes, care for you first and foremost, but how could you begin to change up some of the dynamics? For example, here's how you can help him understand maybe without over-explaining or even self-abandoning: shift from explaining your feelings to really naming the impact. Instead of saying something like, "I feel hurt when you," try, "When my pain is met with defensiveness, I feel alone inside this marriage." Maybe thinking through, "How can I change how I'm offering what's going on for me just in a different way?" Maybe stop rescuing him from his discomfort.

Erin Smalley: Right. Let him manage his emotions. Often we abandon self and we start caring for others. And again, it's pulling that back and going, "Okay, hold on, I need to step away for a minute when that dynamic starts coming up." You don't have to be rude or cruel. You just say, "Hey, hold on, I've got to step away," and check in with me and do that job, care for you.

And then go back and ask him if he's open to hearing what that it was like for you, or even step into the listener role with him because one question that is in my mind and is swirling is: I wonder what it's like for him. What's it triggering for him? I wonder if you've ever gone underneath that to go, "What is this like for you that I've had chronic pain, some emotional stuff that I'm managing?"

Again, no judgment whatsoever. It's something that you are—that's your reality and it's a tough reality. But what's it been like for you? Because you wonder what his grief is like. Again, not your job to manage that for him, but I wonder if he's even in touch with the impact of—maybe he had dreams of a different lifestyle. Who knows? But just being able to hear that might bring some compassion.

Greg Smalley: If he's willing, that's a great thing to go under the waterline. But Deborah, we just continue to encourage you to set those boundaries. When I share something hard, I need you to listen without correcting me or defending yourself. If he's unwilling to do that, then you set that boundary and you walk away and say, "I love you, I'm not willing then to have this conversation if you're not willing to listen without that defensiveness."

Remember, we're always teaching people how to treat us. For you, you're going to start teaching yourself to care about you first and foremost with God in that mix so that you are guaranteed to have someone—two people—who are caring for you.

Erin Smalley: Deborah, we so appreciate your question and keep an eye out for your copy of our book, "Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage."

Greg Smalley: If what Deborah shared, if that sounds or feels like something that you're going through, boy, we really want to encourage you: pick up the phone and call Focus on the Family. That's 800-A-FAMILY. We have amazing Christian professional counselors who are passionate about helping those in need. Your situation matters. We'd love to hear from you.

Thank you for joining us on Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage.

Erin Smalley: Yes, thank you for following the show and sharing it with your friends and family. We want you to have a seat at the table every week as we help equip you and your spouse to have a lifelong satisfied marriage.

Greg Smalley: We want to see you guys growing spiritually as a couple but also as individuals so you can turn right around and help other couples build thriving marriages. Thanks for listening. We'll talk to you again next Monday about this crazy little thing called marriage.

Jim Daly: Live your truth. A lot of people say that, don't they? But truth isn't something we decide. God has decided it for us and it's our job as believers to share His truth with a world in need. I'll encourage you to do that through my podcast, Refocus with Jim Daly. I visit with fascinating guests about important topics like gender confusion, cancel culture, and more, while helping you share God's love with others. Listen at refocuswithjimdaly.com.