Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage

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Dr. Greg Smalley: Welcome to Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage. I'm Dr. Greg Smalley.

Erin Smalley: And I'm Erin Smalley. Today's conversation is one that might bring up some tender feelings or it may even make you a little uncomfortable, but it's deeply important when we're talking about healthy marriages.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Because in a Christian marriage, intimacy is more than just a physical connection. It's really about the covenant that we've made between us and the Lord. It's a reflection, however imperfect, of the way that Christ really loves the Church. He loved her with gentleness, with honor and joy. Today, that's really what we're talking about. We're talking about a selflessness and what that really looks like within the bedroom. Is it always putting your spouse first, or do you deny your own desires, or is there something that can make our married sex lives more freeing? Those are the things that we're going to be talking about today.

Erin Smalley: Later, we're going to teach you how to play Compliment Ping-Pong. Then we'll answer an email question from a listener that doesn't feel comfortable following her husband's spiritual lead because she feels he's manipulative.

Dr. Greg Smalley: We're going to cover a lot today. Our guest is Pastor Doug Hanna. You guys are going to love him. Doug created God-Centered Family, which is a series of devotionals. He's also written a great book called Sex and Self-Forgetfulness: Honoring Each Other in Marriage. We started the conversation by asking Doug to really help us understand why he wrote this book.

Doug Hanna: One of my biggest concerns that I think a lot of Christians are overlooking when it comes to the way we approach sex and whether or not we're informed by the Word or the world is that big topic of selfishness. This often looks a lot more obvious in the world when the world is talking about sex. We hear messages about being sex-positive, and that means sleeping with whoever you want, however you want, whenever you want. Even in the Church, that kind of thinking can become so prevalent as people are encouraged to sleep with their spouse but to consider their own interests rather than the interests of their spouse.

The thing is we expect the world to act like the world. Paul wrote to the Corinthians, "I don't judge the sexually immoral of the world." They're acting exactly as I expect them to act. Sexual immorality in the Church, that's a problem we've got to address. We should expect more from followers of the crucified King who told us that the way to truly live is to lay our lives down. My heart is really to help couples take that big vision for all of life that Jesus gave us to lay down your life for the good of others and to apply that to a very specific area of sex in marriage. How would we find more joy as we lay down our lives, our preferences, our desires for the preferences, desires, and pleasure of our spouse?

Dr. Greg Smalley: Which is such a great way to frame that because you're right. Add in pornography and just how that's built on just my own satisfaction. I'm thinking about me. I don't have to worry about building relationship. It's just about me. So you're right, that selfishness, that message is everywhere. But you're really speaking against that for sure.

Erin Smalley: In so many couples, I'm a marriage counselor, sit with couples and sex comes up frequently. So many are stuck in a routine or they're even disconnected. From your framework of being self-forgetful, how can that turn a marriage around?

Doug Hanna: Self-forgetfulness, again, that's how I'm describing this massive vision for all of life that Jesus laid out for His followers, thinking of others, forgetting yourself, dying to yourself. That really is what breaks marriages out of ruts and routines. It shifts us out of roommate mode into real blockbuster intimacy. We break out of those ruts not by necessarily exploring something new but by taking a genuine, real interest in our spouse, to listen to them.

The new pathways that we're looking for in marriage are really just the same old pathways, continuing to walk into our spouse to know our spouse and to hear from them, to hear how they have changed, to hear how they have grown, to hear how their desires may have shifted and changed over the years. Self-forgetful, genuine listening, genuine service from a heart of love and humility and care, that helps your spouse feel more connected because they're actually being heard, often for the first time. It helps you feel more connected because you're actually seeking to connect. You're actually listening, not just trying to get your own way.

It's so easy for us to slide into a cold, calculating approach to marriage where we are scheming. Okay, how do I get my way? I did the dishes, so I should expect her to do the laundry, right?

Dr. Greg Smalley: It becomes transactional in a lot of ways.

Doug Hanna: Absolutely. We break out of that not by making sure we get what we are owed but by forgetting our rights, by laying down our rights and seeking to serve our spouse.

Erin Smalley: What's the balance in there, Doug, as far as serving our spouse, sacrificing, but also making sure our own individual voice isn't lost? What's the balance?

Doug Hanna: I think one of the most important things that any couple can do for their sex life is to talk openly, honestly, proactively, vulnerably. Now, that's hard, and I'm sure we'll get into that more. It is hard to talk about sex, and I want to be very clear that self-forgetfulness never means that someone is unsafe or that someone is sinning against their conscience or that someone is doing something or pressured to do something that they're not comfortable with.

We should protect our own boundaries, but we should be quick to lay down our preferences. When it comes to a question of I'm not safe or I don't think this is right, this is sinning against my conscience, then that's a hard no. Both spouses walk away from that act with no hard feelings. But when it comes to a question of our preferences, like I would rather do something else tonight, then we lay that down individually and we lift up our cross and prepare to serve our spouse as Christ has served us.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Because you're right. We hear a lot, and maybe this is from wives maybe more a little bit more than husbands, is this idea of, well, I'll just keep thinking about what he wants or his pleasure or I'll keep all my focus on what's good for him. Guys can do this as well, just solely focus on the other person. Then what we hear oftentimes working with couples is that over time, I just feel like I lost my voice. I feel like I was erased by me. I don't matter. I'm just now only focused on what he wants, what she wants. We know that's not your message, but it's so easy for people then to take that to the extreme that therefore I should never think about me, my pleasure. It's only about our spouse. So how do you encourage someone to make sure they're maintaining that balanced perspective like you're talking about?

Doug Hanna: The foundation of all of this is the idea that sex is meant to be good. God made it, and it's meant to be pleasurable for everyone involved. The Bible talks more about sex being for pleasure than it does sex being for procreation. Often in the Church, that's immediately where we go. Well, sex is for the bearing of children. The Bible very rarely takes that route.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Song of Solomon. Right.

Doug Hanna: Song of Solomon, great book of the Bible. Interestingly, if you really read the book, you'll notice that the woman is the main character of the Song of Songs. Sex is meant to be wonderful not just for men but for women. The woman speaks more than half of the words in the Song. She gets the first word, she gets the last word, and a majority of the words in the middle. She's the main character of that book.

Dr. Greg Smalley: It makes me tempted to say, Erin, that feels like our marriage.

Erin Smalley: That is not true.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Perhaps we'll just erase that little tiny part of the interview. Her voice is prominent in a day and age that that wouldn't have been true anyway. And then you're talking, this was the king. So you're right, that's an amazing modeling.

Doug Hanna: If sex wasn't pleasurable by God's design, then we wouldn't have any way to serve our spouse in sex. But the idea is that God's made sex, He's made it good, He's made it to be pleasurable, and He's made it to be received with thanksgiving. We need to just establish holistically healthy patterns in our marriage of giving with self-forgetful generosity and receiving with self-forgetful, God-centered gratitude. Because sex is meant to be good.

Paul wrote to Timothy in 1 Timothy 4, he describes it as the teaching of demons if you forbid marriage. You can read between the lines there from some of the theological cultural context. Those who forbid sex within marriage, Paul describes that as demonic teaching. His remedy for it is not to say, no, sex is fine, you can have it if you must. His remedy for that is 1 Timothy 4:4. Nothing is sinful if it's received with thanksgiving. Nothing created by God is sinful if it's received with thanksgiving.

The way we maintain our own voice in that give-and-take dance of marriage is we receive everything with thanksgiving as a created gift from God. That keeps us safe from selfishness and sexual sin because we cannot thank God in a good conscience for things that He does not honor. No one is watching pornography and then kneeling down beside their bed and saying, thank You, God, for this beautiful gift of Your creation. We don't do that naturally because our sin makes us want to hide. We should hit our knees immediately afterwards and say, have mercy on me, God, a sinner, and know that He is always ready to receive you from the throne of grace. But we can't receive pornography with thanksgiving. We can and should receive sex within marriage from a posture of thanksgiving because God made it, God designed it, God said it is very good.

Erin Smalley: What I hear you saying is that it's meant to be mutually satisfying, that it is not just—somewhere in the culture, especially within Christianity, somewhere in there the message became that in many ways it was a wife's duty to please her husband. So where did that come from? How did it get there?

Doug Hanna: As best as I can understand, and I'm not a historian, I'm not a philosopher, as best as I can see, this thinking that sex is for men and that women owe it to their husbands as a duty has infiltrated the Church as Christians have wholesale adopted thinking from atheist thinkers like Sigmund Freud, and we just run with it. This idea of a sex drive or a libido, that's not a biological reality. Those are terms that Freud created.

We're very concerned about this idea. I call it Sex is for Men Theology, this idea that men always want sex more than women. Men have a certain amount of sexual desire that has to be released. If it's not released, then that man will inevitably sin. He's like a pistol that hasn't fired properly. It has to be discharged. That pressure has to be released. Therefore, wives are tragically boxed in, given this responsibility to save their husbands, to bring their husbands' sexual pleasure regularly in order to prevent them from sinning sexually.

There's a lot of problems with that. And then add in like a 1 Corinthians 7:5 where your body is not your body. We even take scripture verses and twist them so that we can manipulate, so we can control, so we can say, nope, here's the verse, your body, Erin, is not your body, which is right far from what Paul was even talking about.

If you read in context, 1 Corinthians 7 is so mutual. He says, give to your spouse, give one another. There's a mutual giving. Wife, your body is not your own. Husbands, your body is not your own but belongs to your wife. Shockingly radical in Paul's patriarchal society, shockingly radical in our society, our individualistic society. Shockingly counter-cultural even in the Church often as we're called to give to one another and even that that's our duty, to give ourselves to one another. Your body is not your own, so lay down your rights, walk in patterns of self-forgetfulness.

Dr. Greg Smalley: You're talking about talking. That's one of the things you shared, is going, man, part of the solution here is that we need to be talking about sex. How do we do that? How do you encourage couples to begin to talk about sex when even like you said, it's just difficult? It's hard for couples to do that.

Doug Hanna: It's really difficult. Sex has some inherent vulnerabilities to it. We have to be naked for it. Ten out of ten doctors say it's going to require some exposure at least. So there's some inherent vulnerabilities in the act of sex, right? Vulnerability means that there is a high possibility of risk. There is a high possibility of hurt. And there is a high possibility of reward because of the vulnerabilities of sex. It has the potential to bring us so much joy.

In a fallen world, vulnerability is really, really challenging. Marriage in some ways, marriage is set up in Genesis 1 and 2 as the climax of creation. Marriage is not the be-all end-all, not every Christian will get married by God's design. And yet, in some ways, the creation account is set up to point us forward to marriage. Marriage set up as the climax of creation where God looks and He says, this is very good. And then it becomes one of the first casualties of the fall when as soon as God walks in the garden, Adam points to Eve, "The woman You gave to be with me." Where there was vulnerability, where there was intimacy, where there was naked and unashamed, now there's division. Now there's self-protection instead of self-forgetfulness. Now there's "this woman that You gave to be with me, she gave me the fruit, this is her fault, God."

Blame. Vulnerability is so hard in a fallen world. We need to first and foremost cling to the hope of Jesus, who makes all things new. I don't know how non-Christians stay married. I mean, I'm serious. My wife is married to one of the most sinful people that I have ever come into contact with.

Dr. Greg Smalley: That's what she texted us before the interview. That's so weird. "Why are you talking to this guy? He doesn't know anything."

Doug Hanna: She's actually every one-star review of my book on Amazon is just my wife. You can ignore all of them. I know what it's like to be married as a sinner, and I know how hard it is, and I can't imagine navigating that without the hope of Christ who says, "I make all things new," and is even bringing us forward to a better world and a better union where there is no marriage. We won't enjoy the blessings of marriage in the new heavens and the new earth.

With that as our foundation, the hope of Christ, we need to walk forward patiently. That means slowly often. We walk with a lot of care, a lot of tenderness, a slow speed knowing that these will be difficult conversations, especially if there has been any form of sexual suffering or trauma in the past on either end. We walk patiently, we walk openly, we're not trying to hide anything. That doesn't mean we share everything all at once with everyone. That's part of walking slowly. We walk slowly before we say we walk openly.

We walk carefully, emphasis on the carefully. We are full of care for the person that we're talking to. If we walk into a conversation about sex with an agenda other than listening to our spouse and serving them, we've already started off on a sandy foundation. We need to have the person in front of us, the person on the other side of the date night table, the person on the other side of the bed as our one and only goal. Not getting what we want tonight, not having better sex tonight, or even having better sex a year from now. The person on the other end of that conversation, your spouse, needs to be your goal, your focus in that conversation.

Finally, often overlooked is that idea that we need to be walking and talking about sex patiently, openly, carefully, and in community. I've seen so many couples just languish in the dark on their own, and by the time they finally come for marriage counseling from a pastor, they're like, "We have been broken for a decade." It's like, okay, you've been digging a hole for a decade that we have a lot more work to dig you out of under the lordship of Christ. It's weird, it's awkward to talk about sex with other people in spiritual community, but it's so valuable to have other people in your life who know you, who know your spouse, who know your marriage, and are given permission to speak into every aspect of it and can be a resource, a sounding board, and sometimes even a referee or a mediator when we need to have difficult conversations. I'm sure you guys are aware in your own counseling practice just how much of marriage counseling is just getting people to talk in front of you and occasionally interjecting and saying, whoa, that wasn't fair, or hang on, I don't think that's what she was saying. We just sit back and watch the Lord work as people begin to communicate with some guardrails in place.

Erin Smalley: How do you encourage couples when they are experiencing sexual sin within the marriage? Maybe somebody has had an affair, maybe somebody is revealing they're addicted to pornography. How do you encourage them to rebuild and to heal through that process?

Doug Hanna: Your question presupposes that the sin is already found out. Unfortunately, we know that there are people listening to this podcast who are still ensnared in secret sin. That is tragic. Brother, sister, ensnared in sexual sin of any form, your first step is to confess to the Lord. Do not look for any other scapegoat to take responsibility for your sin. It is not the culture's fault, it is not your coworker's fault, it is not the pornography industry's fault. Our sexual sin is our own responsibility. We have a heart problem inside of us.

The first thing we need to do when we're faced with sexual sin is to confess that sin to the Lord, and often, usually, to our spouse as well. Then we need to take radical steps to demonstrate our repentance. Jesus told the Pharisees, bear fruit in keeping with repentance. He said in the Sermon on the Mount, if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It's better to walk through this life without a hand than to walk into hell with both hands. Pluck out your own eye or as I like to say, put your phone in the garbage disposal because it's destroying your marriage.

We want to take these radical steps not because behavior modification will save you but because that's a crucial step for regaining trust with your spouse and rewiring your neural pathways to love what God loves, to believe what God has said is true. When it comes to rebuilding trust, that is a long game. The only way to rebuild trust in marriage is to live a trustworthy life. There used to be a billboard outside of my house. It was recruiting for the Marines, and in massive letters across the whole billboard, "Earned, Never Given." I know a lot of Marines, so I know what they mean by that, but I've said that in marriage counseling more than a lot of other phrases. Trust is earned, never given.

Dr. Greg Smalley: And never earned once and for all. Like it's not like, oh, we can finally arrive at this. Oh, we fully trust each other. You're right, it's earned, never given and never given once and for all. If we maintain that idea of going, man, I want to constantly be thinking how am I showing up? What am I doing to create the kind of environment that Erin feels safe enough to open? In other words, she's trusting me, but that's a daily commitment because that can be gone in a heartbeat. So you're right, I love that analogy. The billboard is such a great one.

Doug, thank you for just your passion for the Word, your clear and obvious love for the Lord, but just your ability just to dig into the Word and to make it make sense. I'm sitting here writing stuff down going, I never thought about it like that. So thank you so much for being here with us, Doug.

Doug Hanna: Greg, Erin, thank you so much for the time today. It's been a joy.

Dr. Greg Smalley: What a fun time with Doug Hanna. I'm so glad that we had him on. I knew nothing about Doug, and now he's one of my very favorite pastors. Just his ability to go so deep into the Word of God and to draw out such truth that you then apply to marriage, but especially the sexual relationship. I just so love that he was willing to really talk about this. We don't talk enough about sex certainly within the Church. He just did such an amazing job.

Erin Smalley: Often what we hear about sex is really what the culture is saying about sex. It was so refreshing to get a biblical, a grounded, biblical, balanced perspective on sex. One that neither individual is discounted, that women aren't expected to only think about their husbands, but that they matter too. I'm and I loved how he addressed that right through scripture.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Because that verse is so perfect in Philippians 2 because it's saying, don't only look to your own interest. So of course, you're going to look to your own interest. You need to matter as well. But also look to the interest of others. That's the right message to your point. As much as the culture preaches selfishness and self-focus, in the Christian culture it's easy around sex to slip into this posture of, well then only think about your spouse. Your spouse is the only one that matters. Their pleasure only matters. That's why Doug's message is so perfect because he's really saying, no, how about both of you matter? Just don't not one or the other, but both.

Because he really is reflecting back on what Paul was saying and he's saying don't treat yourself as more important than everyone else. It's not about disappearing, it's about refusing to compete for first place. He just so eloquently communicated that. The other piece that he talked about that I'm so grateful that he goes there is just how important it is to protect each other, but especially how are we protecting women, wives, in this area of sex. Like he was saying, historically it's been about the guy, it's been about this patriarchal system that preferred the guy, made sure the guy was the one where the pleasure was focused on.

Really protecting her. It made me think about Malachi 2:16 because when we think of that we're often reminded that God hates divorce. But if you look at some of the other translations like in NIV it doesn't say that God hates divorce, it actually says "the man who hates and divorces his wife says the Lord the God of Israel does violence to the one that he should protect. So be on guard and do not be unfaithful." What a beautiful message it is to husbands. That's a part of that God-given role. How are we protecting, therefore how does that protection show up then within our physical relationship, within our sexual relationship with our wife to where no is okay. That's an acceptable response. I love hearing a pastor really talk about how are we protecting our wives, how are we protecting women. We need that message more and more.

Erin Smalley: Absolutely. Well, we hope that today's conversation really helped to unpack the differences between selflessness and self-neglect and between serving and performing. Again, Doug did such a great job helping us understand that. That was really our goal, to give you and your spouse conversation starters as you pursue intimacy that is as Doug pointed out generous, joyful, and really rooted in God's Word.

Selflessness isn't about losing yourself. I loved that he clarified that over and over again. It means paying attention, asking, listening, learning, and caring for your spouse's heart as much as your connection in marriage.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Certainly this topic, Erin, as we talk about sex, that can really stir up questions, tension, even healing. Hopefully you're hearing us encourage you to keep talking to one another. But also consider talking to a mentor, a pastor, a counselor who can help you continue to heal and to grow in your relationship, within your sexual relationship with your spouse. You can always call us here at Focus on the Family, 800-A-FAMILY. One of our licensed Christian counselors can work with you and your spouse. The goal is to keep leaning into these kinds of conversations because marriage is sacred. Like Doug was talking about, it matters.

Erin Smalley: And if you'd like to get a copy of Pastor Doug Hanna's book, Sex and Self-Forgetfulness, you can get it for a gift of any amount when you check out our show notes.

Dr. Greg Smalley: We have a fun way for you to honor your spouse. It's a game that we call Compliment Ping-Pong. So maybe you've played ping-pong before, so you get the general gist of where we're going. But this is all about complimenting each other. It's fast-paced. You have to rapid-fire as many compliments as possible without repeating yourself. That's the key. That's the tough part of this.

Erin Smalley: Well, the other key is there are rules. No generic compliments allowed, like "you're amazing," "you're nice." Nope. Try something like, "The way you hold eye contact when we speak to each other makes me feel chosen."

Dr. Greg Smalley: I love it when you compliment me by telling me that I am a trophy husband. That's very specific, so thank you.

Erin Smalley: The way you looked today in your gray vest, you look like a trophy husband. Gray vest! There has to be deeper meaning behind everything you say. For example, "I respect the way you handle pressure. You are strong and capable."

"I trust your judgment. I believe in you. I noticed how you handled that and it means a lot. I see you. I'm proud of who you are becoming, your growth matters. I love being close to you. I desire and enjoy you. We're a great team. We're in this together."

Dr. Greg Smalley: And that's the beauty of complimenting someone is that if it's specific, then you can really tap into that deeper meaning. Like you were just saying, like when I think about if I'm saying to you, we're a great team, that deeper meaning is hopefully what's being conveyed to you is, man, I'm with you till the end. Like we're this team and I'm there. That's the power of when we're willing to compliment each other.

It made me think about, Erin, and we've told this story before, but it's still one of my very favorites. As a very, very young husband, like what, few months into our marriage, we were at a dinner party and just talking to this guy who'd been married for over 50 years. Just asking him, "Hey, what's kind of your secret to a 50-year marriage?" He thought about it, and I was so surprised at what he said. I'm looking for the deep theological, typical advice that we hear, but I'll never forget. He said, "You know, I never let my wife leave our house without complimenting her, because I don't want the first compliment that she hears to come from another man."

And that's the part of the opportunity is that in so many ways I want you to be over-complimented by me, so that when someone else might say that, especially if it's a work colleague or some other guy that you're whatever, that it's just rolls off. "Okay, thanks," because I'm not craving that. Because we can hit places in our marriage to where we're just so used to each other and accustomed to each other and you become complacent.

Erin Smalley: And it's important to not just thank your spouse for what they do, but to compliment who they are and who even they're becoming.

Dr. Greg Smalley: As you do this, the fun part is this can escalate into laughter because oftentimes we're not used to receiving compliments. We have a colleague here at Focus and I always tease him. He hates any sort of affirmation, any sort of compliment. So I'm always teasing him that in meetings I'll say, "Hey, we're going to go around the table and we're going to say one nice thing about," and he just drives him crazy. But we laugh a lot about this. And this is the power of compliments. It can create laughter.

But you can also pull some symbolism into it as well. Like I was thinking I could say, "Erin, you're my emotional WD-40." Do you even know what that means?

Erin Smalley: Do I bring the emotions out? I loosen the emotions up?

Dr. Greg Smalley: Exactly. I'm telling you, that's exactly right. Like spraying WD-40 on a bolt that won't come out. You are like that. Like you help me to better understand my emotions and maybe help bring these out. You've done that well. That was my goal.

Erin Smalley: And you can compliment your spouse on what they are becoming too, future-version compliments like, "You're going to be the person that people turn to when dot dot dot," whatever it is. Or, "I see the path you're on and I'm excited to see how you're growing and how this project is going to turn out. You're working on several projects right now that you're just waiting, but I know they're going to turn out great."

Dr. Greg Smalley: And that's such a beautiful way to speak life into your spouse. Because right there sometimes either I get discouraged or I maybe don't see what you see, and when you compliment me in that way, that gives me hope. Another one that we encourage would be like a legacy compliment. So for example, when people describe you at 75 years of age, they'll say that Erin had such a deep impact on me because she created a relationship with me, a friendship where I felt like I mattered and she spoke into me, she called things out, she developed just a deep connection with me, and that made such a big difference. Even think about in the future, how might you compliment your spouse on this person that you know that they're going to be years down the road?

Erin Smalley: We've been talking about giving and selflessness, and this really is just another way to speak life over your spouse.

Dr. Greg Smalley: It so warms our hearts when you send us your questions because it feels like you trust us. So thank you, which of course means it's time for Q&A.

Erin Smalley: Today's question is an email from Katia. "Dear Greg and Erin, thank you for all you do for married couples who struggle every day. I've been married for 28 years and have been on the verge of divorce multiple times. I still fear it may happen. Because I don't have the upbringing my husband did, he says I could never truly understand how to love. I feel that this is manipulative. What do you think? He says he hates liars, but I have known him to lie or to only give information he deems necessary. How can I treat him as a godly man when he chooses when he wants to be godly?"

Dr. Greg Smalley: Katia, 28 years is a long time that you've been fighting for your marriage. Listening to how you're honoring God and at the same time being honest about what's happening. And you ask, telling me that I could never truly understand how to love. Yeah, absolutely, it's manipulative. And that's demeaning. That's dismissive. Which makes sense that you probably feel controlled, shamed. Is that really true about me? Is this how God sees me? Because as much as we try to battle against what our spouse says at times that feels hurtful, man, it gets confusing because it really causes us to have to wrestle through what is true about me. So Katia, that makes sense that you're asking that and the short answer is 100% it's manipulative.

Erin Smalley: It can be manipulation if it's shutting down your voice, making you feel less than, positions him as the authority on what love is. I say this multiple times a day in my counseling office that the amazing thing about marriage and the connection that we experience, the attachment that we build with each other can bring healing to those wounds that we walk in. So in many ways he's saying, I don't believe that you're ever going to grow beyond your family of origin. And so you're stuck and I'm stuck with you. You don't know how to love. I do. So I'm the expert on love and you're not. So we're not—you're not going to grow individually and we're not going to grow together. Which is not okay. Because he is not the one that can deem whether or not she's going to grow or not or whether they're going to grow together.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Whether or not you are capable of love, that's solely up to you and the Lord to better understand what God's truth is in that. Your husband is not your source of truth, God is. Now, at times, certainly God's going to use Erin, you, to speak truth into my life. But I always want to take what you're offering feedback-wise—you offer a lot of good, there's times where you're challenging me with some feedback that stings a little bit. What I never want to do is to put you in a place that you are the source of truth. That's not fair to you. But God is.

And that's why Katia, we just encourage you, take this to the Lord specifically praying, "God, is it true that I am incapable of love? As my Father, who sees me, what's the answer?" And just patiently wait. God will speak that truth into your life. He's so faithful, He's so committed to speaking truth into our life. Because what your husband is doing, it doesn't feel like feedback, it feels like a verdict. And God's the only one that can offer that. I'm not dismissing whatever's going on with your husband and where that frustration is.

Erin Smalley: Well, that's what I'd even be asking. When you say that to me, what's going on for you? What's really driving that question? What's happening inside that causes you to ask me that question? Something's driving it. So go under the waterline and really explore that, if he's willing. He may or may not be and that's not in your control, but you absolutely can put the question back to him to go, well, tell me why you're asking that and tell me when you ask me that question, because you've asked me that before, what's going on? Like what's going on inside of you? What are you feeling? What are you fearing? What are you thinking? All of it.

And then she asked another question though as well. She said, "How do I treat him as a godly man?" And I wonder, is she really saying, "How do I respond in a godly way regardless of how he shows up?" Because Katia, you don't have control of how he shows up. You have control of how you show up. And so really look at what is in your control. You're speaking your truth calmly, you're setting healthy boundaries, and refuse to accept demeaning language. To even say, "I hear what you're saying, but I'm going to go to my source of truth and ask him what he says about me, because I don't think I experience myself like that. But I'll go to my truth, God, and ask him what he says about me."

Dr. Greg Smalley: Honoring her husband in this situation does not mean ignoring hurtful behavior, pretending that he's consistent when he's really not, silencing yourself. None of that is honoring him, you, or the Lord or your marriage. I like what you're saying. You can certainly be curious and ask him these things. But when that turns hurtful, when that turns cruel in his language, then 100% set those boundaries. That's not okay.

Katia, we'd certainly encourage you to reach out and get some help. You can call Focus on the Family, 1-800-A-FAMILY, and talk to one of our counselors. Our licensed Christian counselors can help you kind of think through what do I do, what would some boundaries look like, how do I respond, how do I honor him? Exactly what you're asking. And then they can give you a referral to a counselor that we've vetted here at Focus on the Family who's in your area.

Erin Smalley: You can honor your husband, Katia, without agreeing with everything he says. Because we're never going to agree on everything. So that's his opinion. And you can be a godly wife without losing your voice in the process. Amen. So we encourage you to use your voice, set the boundaries, seek God's truth, and then try a different conversation with him or seek help and have that conversation with someone else, a trusted Christian counselor in the room.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Great question, Katia. Thank you for trusting us enough to open your heart, to give us that sort of visibility into what your marriage has felt like and what's going on. Certainly we will be sending you a copy of our book, Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage.

Erin Smalley: And we love when our listeners get in touch with the show. You can leave a voicemail or email with your questions or feedback for this episode. The link is in the show notes.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Well, thank you for joining us on Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage.

Erin Smalley: Yes, thank you for following the show and sharing it with your friends and family. We want you to have a seat at the table every week as we help equip you and your spouse to have a lifelong, satisfying marriage.

Dr. Greg Smalley: We want to see you guys grow spiritually, both as individuals and together as a couple.

Erin Smalley: So you can turn right around and invest in other couples to help them build thriving marriages.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Thanks for listening. We'll talk to you again next Monday about this crazy little thing called marriage.

Jim Daly: Live your truth. A lot of people say that, don't they? But truth isn't something we decide. God has decided it for us. And it's our job as believers to share His truth with a world in need. I'll encourage you to do that through my podcast, Refocus with Jim Daly. I visit with fascinating guests about important topics like gender confusion, cancel culture, and more, while helping you share God's love with others. Listen at refocuswithjimdaly.com.