Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage

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Dr. Greg Smalley: Welcome to Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage. I'm Dr. Greg Smalley.

Erin Smalley: And I'm Erin Smalley. You know when we're not good at something or if you want to get better at something, typically what we'll do is we'll read books or enlist some kind of help, or we look for coaching. That's what we're going to talk about on today's episode. Research shows that when married couples coordinate or work together on their goals, they're more likely to make progress. They also report higher levels of happiness in their relationship.

Dr. Greg Smalley: We say this every single time we end one of our shows. Hopefully, you've heard us say this again and again. We want to talk about what do we really mean. At the end of every show, we talk about you and your spouse growing closer together and closer to the Lord so that you can turn around and help other couples.

In essence, turn into coaches. Helping one another reach our goals is exactly what Christ teaches. That's what we call Marriage Champions. That's our Marriage Champion program. We're just trying to encourage couples to keep drawing closer to the Lord, keep strengthening your own marriage, and then look for another couple or someone else that you can coach, that you can influence, and that you can walk alongside.

You're going to love our guests today because they're going to lay out how you can coach another couple. We also talk about other even easier ways to do that, like praying for another couple. It is such a powerful way to invest in someone who God is going to bring into your life or you guys are going to cross paths with. We talk a lot about just keeping posting on all your social media platforms pro-marriage information, good research that you come across, or good quotes because our culture definitely needs to see positive messages about marriage. Then you've got a mentoring kind of relationship, which we're really going to get in and talk about as well. There are a lot of ways to invest in another couple.

Erin Smalley: Later, we're going to answer a listener's email question. Her husband has turned away from the faith and she feels emotionally isolated. Then we're going to share another wonderful and easy way for you and your spouse to evaluate, communicate, and then plan for your future as you begin the new year. Get ready because this interview has so much inspiration and passion. You're going to feel it.

Our guests today are the leaders of an organization called Marriage Team. Matthew Zoller is the Executive Director and he's joined today by the co-founders of Marriage Team, Alan and Autumn Ray. We began the conversation just by asking to help us understand what exactly is marriage coaching.

Matthew Zoller: The vision of Marriage Team is every marriage restored and enriched to glorify God. That really is the goal that we have, that restoration for the purpose of glorifying God. The way we do that is by equipping Christian couples to come alongside other couples in a coaching relationship.

Not as counselors, not as mentors, but as coaches. As a coach, every good team and every winning team needs really good coaches. That coach comes alongside them to be able to encourage them, to give them skills that they need. In our case, communication skills.

That's really the philosophy behind it. Right now, we have approximately 200 volunteer Christian coaches in 26 states in the US. This was founded by Al and Autumn 20 years ago on these same communication principles that we continue to use. This is so effective that nine out of ten couples considering divorce before going through coaching decide to stay together afterwards.

Erin Smalley: That's significant. We love that. There is so much hope. Autumn and Al, what inspired you to start this Marriage Team program?

Autumn Ray: Oh gosh, our own marriage. We always start out by saying you look at Autumn and Al and you think they're the perfect couple; they started Marriage Team. Talk to our kids and they'll give you the true story about Autumn and Al. I tell people we went to everything that had the word marriage on it. If it was a retreat, if it was a book, if it was a pastor, if it was a counselor, we were trying to get our relationship back on track.

Here we were Christians sitting in the pew, listening to all the good words, and we could not figure it out. We'd go to these retreats and these things and we'd put the book on the shelf and Monday morning, we'd be Autumn and Al back to the same old behaviors. It was the strangest thing because God called us into marriage ministry. Is that a joke or what?

Now we have to try to figure this out. I can remember the day when I was complaining to God about all of our friends who have terrible marriages, they're getting divorces, and the kids are suffering. I asked God what was going on. I remember so clearly He said, "What are you going to do about it?" I responded, "What am I going to do about it? That's your job." That was the day that changed our lives and our focus because God got ahold of us and said, "I'm calling you to action."

That's exactly what we did. We met with God and we said we're not going to do this if it doesn't work because it didn't work for us. You have to put it together so that it will work. All of the program and the curriculum that we put together is based on evidence-based practices on what changes people for a lifetime. Lasting change is what we're looking for. That's how it began. I will give it back to you guys.

Dr. Greg Smalley: For you guys, you could have gone in a number of different directions. I love that God had placed on your heart that we want to invest in other couples and help them have strong marriages. You guys could have written books, you could have started teaching events. You could have done a number of things. What was it about recognizing that to equip and train others is the powerful way that you guys wanted to invest in helping marriages get strong?

Autumn Ray: I'm excited about that because this is totally God's Word: equip the saints for ministry. We are two right here, but there are saints out there just like us who had friends and family that saw their relationships crashing. Just like us, they asked what they could do.

We used to say we've got the three things: we'll pray for you, have you talk to a pastor, and have you talk to a counselor. Those were the three things. Now we've got the fourth thing. Why did we do this? Because it's all about what God says we're to do. We're to come together in relationship, confess our sins to one another, build each other up, and hold each other accountable.

How does that happen but in a coaching relationship? It is absolute magic. Not only what it does to the couples who are coming, having coaches who love them and care about them, giving their time as volunteers. No pay is involved in that. Two hours a week for eight to ten weeks, loving and caring about you. Non-Christians will come into that environment and ask why you would do this. We get to share the Lord with them.

You think the couples that come to us are being helped? You should talk to our coaches. There isn't one of them that doesn't say their relationship has changed every time they coach. Greg, I'm so glad that you asked that question. That's how it came about. Don't think that we didn't stray in going through this and telling the Lord we'll go do a conference or a retreat or teach classes at Multnomah University. God pulled us in and He said, "Wait a minute, that is not what I've called you to do. You come back."

Al Ray: The reason that we came up with what we do is when we went to conferences and took classes, the book was on the shelf and we were operating in our same old fashion. We came up with an analogy that we actually used when we were coaching a couple and it just sort of came to us.

It said you and your spouse were born onto different teams. You have a different playbook. Your expectations, how you learned to handle anger, bitterness, communication, all of that stuff. The problem now is you've got married and created a new team. You've brought your individual playbooks and you're not sharing them. You're not operating on the same page. How can you expect to be effective as a couple when you don't even have the same playbook?

The couple resonated with that. For coaching, it's not that one is right or wrong; they're different. What the coaches do is they help the couples create a common playbook. Agreements on how we're going to listen, how we're going to talk to each other, how we're going to resolve conflict, the importance of bitterness and forgiveness, and appreciating each other's differences. If people can master those skills and make agreements about how they're going to handle that, they can deal with any issue: finances, in-laws, kids in trouble, retirement, whatever it is.

Autumn Ray: I always like to tell the example when Al gives that little analogy. I thought that if Al loved me and cared about me, he would know what I needed and wanted. That was my play. Unfortunately, Al did not have that play in his playbook. I did not have the play that said I can tell Al what I need and want in a way that he can receive it. When we learned, we needed assistance and help. That's why we built the coaching.

Dr. Greg Smalley: That's really good. You know, for a coach, I know that there are plenty of people out there that are saying they want to help and be used by God. But I know that there's always that fear of who we are. We don't have a perfect marriage. What are we going to say? How will God use us? What makes for a good coach?

Matthew Zoller: First and foremost, they just have to have the desire to help other couples. It's a vocation. It's something you're called to. You have to be open and willing to do it. You need to have some experience being married. Most importantly, they need to have a growing faith in God. They need to be plugged into a community that is growing. While many of the people that come to us aren't necessarily Christian, our coaches really need to be rock solid.

Erin Smalley: How do you recruit couples to become coaches?

Autumn Ray: Well, I hope you're helping us. People read about us on the internet and they say this is something that they think God's calling them to do. There are churches out there that want coaches that are actually volunteers for Marriage Team because we handle everything for them.

We do the intake process and follow-up and they don't have to get involved. A lot of times in churches, you can't get really great coaching if you train your couples in the church to coach other couples because sometimes they won't be open and honest with each other. Sometimes when we train our coaches, we say you have to be brave and go where no man's gone before and have this courage. Sometimes you can't have that with people that you're having dinner with the next night. It just doesn't work. There are a lot of churches that like the idea of having Christian couples coach their couples because they know the environment they'll be in.

Erin Smalley: Can you give us an example of some of these skills? I'm so curious what you are equipping these coaches to teach these couples.

Al Ray: It's listening and speaking. Using listening to understand and using I statements. The way we do I statements, we do it without what we call a secondary "you". Often people say, "I feel this way when you..." That "you" still puts people on the defensive. We help couples reframe it so there's no attack in it.

Once the skills are taught, it's so easy to go back to your normal communication patterns. If we were coaching you guys and Erin had an issue, we'd say, "Erin, you're going to be the speaker and Greg, your job is to listen to understand." Erin is going to start talking and she's going to say something crazy like, "I really hate going to your parent's house because whatever." Greg's going to stop her and say, "But honey, you know they love you."

The coaches will stop Greg and remind him his job is to listen to understand. What did he understand Erin to say? Half the time, the guy that's sitting in Greg's shoes would look at his wife and ask her to repeat it because he wasn't listening to understand; he was listening to refute. He'd heard it before, he knew what was coming, all of that stuff.

It's that facilitation process that after couples practice it, it becomes more of a habit so they can do it on their own. Coaches have to facilitate the application of the skills for couples to really get it. That's the difference between head knowledge and actual behavior change. You need to practice the new habits, the new plays, long enough until they become natural.

Dr. Greg Smalley: We love the idea of equipping people with great skills and tools. You talked about listening. What would be another important tool that these couples who are struggling or whatever their challenge is can use?

Al Ray: One of the tools is everybody gets angry. Helping couples understand what's the source of their anger through the coaching process, what makes them angry with one another, and then making some agreements. When Autumn sees me getting angry, what am I willing to allow her to say to me to help diffuse it or to speak into it? What am I willing to do differently? That would be a new play.

I decide what I'm willing to do differently, I write it down, and it becomes my action. Then I'm responsible for figuring out what I need to hear if I forget to do what I just agreed to do. We call that a relapse reminder. The coaches would say to me, "Al, those are great intentions, you've promised to do XYZ, but if you forget and you get angry like you have in the past, what would you like Autumn to say to you to try and get you back on track?"

That's one of the plays. What we came to the conclusion of was if people can master how they handle anger, how they approach conflict, and how they look at bitterness and forgiveness, if they can master those relationship skills, they're going to be well-prepared to deal with them.

Autumn Ray: Another really cool concept that I think is kind of Marriage Team is we don't ask the person what they're willing to change. We ask the teammate what they want their teammate to change. I could choose all the easy things that I want to change, but it may not be what Al needs. That is what we'll ask Al.

The other concept about Marriage Team coaching that I think is different is that we plan for relapse. We know what we should do and we say these are the actions we're going to take, but how many of us are actually going to take them? When we fail, there's the relapse. Who is in cahoots with you in the relapse? You've got your teammate. That's what makes the team. I say, "Oh, you're going to notice it when I screw up. I'm probably not, but you're going to notice something. When you notice it, you're going to stew about it and get angry about it. I don't want that in our relationship. I want a team that doesn't do that. So I have to be responsible for coming up with what I will respond to and write those words down."

The first step is awareness and understanding of what is currently going on in your relationship and why that isn't working. You both get your side of explaining and understanding each other deeply, not surface understanding, but deeply what is going on in this particular area. Then you move into learning and you learn different ways of doing that through skill training. Then you move to solution because you cannot move to solution unless both people feel totally understood about the issue.

Dr. Greg Smalley: You guys have done an amazing job of putting some very simple, easy-to-use tools in and then equipping these coaches to then walk alongside and journey with these couples. No wonder God's using that in such mighty ways. It's just a pleasure hearing about how you guys have equipped and are raising up this army of coaches to really jump in and help these couples who are struggling. We're just so honored to hear about what you guys are doing. Love your passion and we're just so grateful for the ministry you guys are doing.

Matthew Zoller: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here with you as well.

Autumn Ray: Exactly, because we feel exactly the same way about you guys. We've felt that way for years and years. Thank you so much. I feel so encouraged after this conversation.

Dr. Greg Smalley: I cannot quit smiling when Autumn said fat, dumb and happy. I just felt like she sees me. She gets me. I just felt so seen and known by her. I remember when I met them. I remember just going, wow, their passion was contagious and completely inspiring. Talking about that, especially one thing that stood out to me was the focus on skills. Learning these things, practicing these things. Hearing them really say if you could only do one, they're all important, but if you only have time for one, really become great listeners.

I texted you a couple days ago. I've never heard this analogy ever. How is this possible? We've been doing marriage ministry for 35 years. How have I not run across this simple little analogy? Basically, what it was is if you take the word listen and you rearrange the letters, one other word that it makes is silent. Is that not brilliant? How have we never seen that? Because to be a great listener, you need to be silent.

Erin Smalley: When you texted it to me, you gave me no explanation of what it was about and I was like, oh, okay, random text in the middle of the day. Then you told me.

Dr. Greg Smalley: I was hoping that you would think that I thought of that so you would be like, you're brilliant. Just one more brilliant thing. But that really is the essence and that's hard to be silent. I think Al was talking about how you're hearing someone but you're thinking about how will I respond. You're kind of a speaker in waiting. For a lot of us, we're gesturing like we're listening and how important that is.

Erin Smalley: Which means you have to have an open heart in order to be silent and a good listener, engaged.

Dr. Greg Smalley: I like how they also then talked about planning for a relapse. Assuming that we're not going to do this well or we're going to get off track when we're not listening and to actually plan for that.

Erin Smalley: What I appreciated is that it wasn't just saying relapse is going to happen into our old patterns, but what do I do to support you when it does happen? There's a written-out plan of words that you give me to support you in that moment.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Let's come up with it. What would that look like?

Erin Smalley: You would say them to me because they would be my words. Let's say I get triggered and what I usually do is get critical or quiet, one of the two. What did she say she was talking about what's happening for her?

Dr. Greg Smalley: We kind of did this the other day, which is funny. We did. It was around something was happening and you said, "Wow, that was snarky." I was like, what? In a snarky voice, I said, "Well, that was snarky." Instead of saying that, what would be helpful is if I just asked you, "Did you mean that to be snarky?"

Erin Smalley: Yes. And I could have said no, I really didn't.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Which you did. That's a good example of how you and I agreed on if I experience you or I'm wondering if she is being sarcastic or snarky, whatever, to just go ahead and ask that and let you respond to that. What about for me? What would be a good example of when I feel failed or invisible?

Erin Smalley: You get defensive. Okay, yes, that's a good one. So if you were to ask me or to even state, "I notice some defensiveness."

Dr. Greg Smalley: I feel like I'd get more defensive, though.

Erin Smalley: Okay, so what would work?

Dr. Greg Smalley: That's a really good question. You guys are going to have fun talking about this tonight because this is not as easy as it sounds. I would like to have you try that just to say, "It seems like you are defending something. Did a button or something get triggered for you?"

Erin Smalley: Or could I say, "I'm noticing defensiveness."

Dr. Greg Smalley: Let's try it. We're going to try this again. Wow, we're doing all kinds of things. Because I think that I've really that's what I've been praying a lot about, really working on, is just trying to become so aware of when I become defensive. Just seeing it, that awareness just going, okay, here I go again.

Erin Smalley: That's exactly what I say. Here we go again. Yes, that doesn't help. I like this. If I say, "Oh, that was snarky," it doesn't help. Let's try that.

Dr. Greg Smalley: I'm noticing defensiveness. Okay, I'll lock it in. We will let you guys know. Come up with your own words and go to the show page. You can leave us a voicemail, you can leave us an email on what those are. Tell us how that's gone. Maybe you'll come up with even a better one. Or if you're like, "Erin, try this the next time you sense Greg being defensive, say it this way," because you guys are very clever and creative. We'd love that.

As you and your spouse step into the new year, consider becoming what we're talking about, becoming a marriage champion. These are couples that pour God's love into other marriages through things like prayer and encouragement, serving them, teaching, helping them to develop these skills and tools like you just heard. It's one of the most powerful gifts that you can give. You can find out more by going to our show notes so we'll put a link in there to our Marriage Champion page.

Erin Smalley: Maybe you don't feel like you're at the place of needing marriage coaching, but you're wanting more knowledge and understanding of what's going on within your relationship. Take our free marriage assessment. Go through it and then you may want to take the Reactive Cycle Assessment, which is also free. As you do this, you'll be developing the tools you'll need to strengthen your communication as well as awareness, both individual awareness and marriage awareness.

Dr. Greg Smalley: You guys don't have to do this alone. As you're better understanding some challenges maybe that you're facing, give us a call. We have an amazing counseling team. Give us a call at 800-A-FAMILY. They're going to take your information, you can pick out a good scheduled time that our counselor will call you back for that free consultation. They can even help point you to a counselor in your area. Again, take the marriage assessment, the reactive cycle assessment, and those links are in our show notes.

Well, it's always wonderful to get your questions and certainly we hope you feel the same when you get our answers because it is Q&A time. Today's question is an email from a wife who wanted to stay anonymous.

Guest (Female): Hi Greg and Erin, thank you for all that you do. I've spent a lot of time reading books, listening to podcasts, and even going to therapy on my own because I want my marriage to be whole. My spouse walked away from his faith several years ago. We have agreed to stay married even though we don't agree on faith issues.

He supports and doesn't discourage me, however, I feel our relationship is very surface level. It seems the more I try to address concerns, he states in no uncertain terms that he doesn't understand why I'm making our marriage issues such a big deal. He feels that everything is fine. I feel very empty and lonely emotionally. It's as if he can't see that we are living as roommates. He's okay with that but I am not. I want my loving happy husband back. I believe God can do anything, but I feel I don't have a voice and I'm not being heard anymore. What should I do?

Dr. Greg Smalley: What a great question. We're just so grateful that you've taken the time to really share your heart with us. What you're describing is deeply painful and is very real. Feeling kind of spiritually alone in your marriage, but it creates such an ache in one's heart. We get that this is a tough season that you're in.

Erin Smalley: I want to say first and foremost to this wife, feeling empty and lonely emotionally in your marriage is so painful. We want to encourage you first and foremost, become the expert at caring for your heart and your emotions because those emotions matter. Your husband may not be available to listen and to care about your heart right now, but you are always available and God is always available. It sounds like you have an individual counselor who can also join you in that, as well as your community of sisters in Christ.

Dr. Greg Smalley: It makes so much sense when a spouse steps away from their faith, you see that often show up then in how they choose to relate or even not relate. Often times they're less vulnerable, maybe they don't have a strong desire for those emotional conversations. You experience less shared meaning together and things sort of feel like they're on that surface level. It makes so much sense that you're feeling empty, you're feeling alone and are struggling to go what do I do here.

Erin Smalley: We want to encourage you to invite conversation with him. I wouldn't put pressure on him to go deep. I would just be super curious, asking open-ended questions because you said he alluded to feeling fine about everything. What does fine mean? What does that mean to him? What is his experience of the marriage and also just exploring when does he feel most connected to you? Explore that, talk about that, and even step into I wonder what it would look like to do more of whatever he's talking about as far as feeling connected. I would do that without pressuring him and also demanding anything from him.

Dr. Greg Smalley: I think you're right on because the pressure, the we're so disconnected, you've walked away from the faith, you're not doing this, not doing that, and here's how it's impacting me, although true, it usually won't get her what she really wants. That's why looking for other ways to really connect because at the end of the day, certainly you want to share that spiritual faith and that spiritual connection together. Right now that sounds like that's not really an option. What is an option, though, is looking for real specific activities that you guys can do together to create that connection. Instead of what's one thing that God's been teaching you as of late, what you're doing is asking what was the high of your day, what was the low of your day, making sure you're going on those walks, you guys are going on dates, that you're just looking for ways to connect and to really fight against that roommate feeling.

Erin Smalley: I just want to encourage this wife as well, continue surrounding yourself with godly women who can support you, encourage you, pray for you as you wait for a shift within the dynamic of the relationship. Of course pray for that. Pray that something shifts and keep nurturing your own spiritual journey, your own spiritual walk. Now with all of this said, I would say long-term this strategy may not be effective because at some point it really is leaning into, hey, I really want to work on this marriage. You may not share the same faith and I can't control what you believe or what you do, but I do want to feel closer to you. In the interim, try some of these strategies and then work towards deeper connection.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Thank you for putting yourself out there, for sending us this question. Be sure to look out for your copy of the book, Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage. We want all our listeners to know that we take it very seriously that you're opening your heart to us and seeking biblical advice when you ask us questions. Our team prays before we ever turn on these microphones that the Lord will speak through us. If there's a question you have, get in touch with us here at the show. You can leave a voicemail or an email by clicking the link in the show notes.

Thank you for joining us on Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage.

Erin Smalley: Yes, thank you for following the show and sharing it with your friends and family. We want you to have a seat at the table every week as we help equip you and your spouse to have a lifelong satisfying marriage. We want to see you guys growing spiritually as individuals and as a couple.

Dr. Greg Smalley: So you can turn right around and invest in other couples to help them build thriving marriages. Well, thanks for listening. We'll talk to you again next Monday about this crazy little thing called marriage.