Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage

Dr. Greg Smalley: I’m Dr. Greg Smalley. More than ever, we’re seeing incredible opportunities to help young people embrace God's design for marriage, family, and a vibrant faith in Christ. You can play a powerful role in that opportunity. Focus on the Family is launching a feature-length Adventures in Odyssey animated film, *Journey into the Impossible*, and we’d love your partnership in bringing it to families.

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Sandra: The three-parter *For Whom the Wedding Bells Toll* means so much more now as our kids are getting older. When they were quite young, it was interesting, but now as they approach their romantic relationships and future potential marriage, listening to *For Whom the Wedding Bells Toll* is profound. Adventures in Odyssey has helped bond our family even closer and has truly made a difference in our kids, in their life here on earth and where they'll spend eternity in heaven with Jesus. I really thank you all so much for that.

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Welcome to *Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage*. I’m Dr. Greg Smalley.

Erin Smalley: And I’m Erin Smalley. Springtime is upon us, and I love how God designed the seasons. After the cold stillness of winter, life returns. Trees bud, flowers bloom. Well, flowers begin to bloom and then it snows on them here in Colorado and they die. But flowers do begin to bloom and the days get longer. It’s a good time for an emotional and spiritual reset.

Dr. Greg Smalley: It’s a great time for renewal, growth, and transformation. That’s really our hope for your marriage today. We’re going to give you some new ideas to help restart or refresh your relationship with your spouse. We also have an exercise that we’re going to help you revitalize your bond together—that connection that is so important to you by looking backwards. That’s a little later here on the show.

Then, we’re going to answer an email from one of our listeners who’s asking if it is okay to combine our finances.

Erin Smalley: Our guest today is someone we really respect because her work has helped so many people. It’s based on facts and research. Shaunti Feldhahn is a social researcher, bestselling author, and internationally renowned speaker. She graduated from Harvard University and she applies her analytical skills to investigating eye-opening, life-changing truths about relationships, both at home and in the workplace.

Dr. Greg Smalley: This is a presentation that she gave at a conference and it’s also included in the Nurturing the Heart of Your Spouse collection. This is a free offer from Focus on the Family, and we’ll tell you more about that a little bit later. For now, let’s listen to Shaunti Feldhahn discuss her research and the principles for happiness in marriage.

Shaunti Feldhahn: The first and most important thing that the research found, which is actually the only thing in any of our research studies that we’ve ever said this about, is a prerequisite for happy marriage. We don’t think you can be happily married without this. That is that these happy couples chose to believe the best of their spouse's intentions, even when they were legitimately hurt.

Everybody gets hurt. Every couple, even the most happily married couples, hurt each other's feelings. I love what one guy said when we were interviewing them. He said, "You’ve got to realize that even the most awesome, godly Christian husband and wife can be a jerk sometimes." Everybody hurts each other's feelings sometimes.

The issue is what you choose to believe about your spouse's intentions towards you when that happens. It is a human tendency for us to naturally think, putting myself in a wife's point of view, "Ow, he knew how that would make me feel and he said it anyway." You don’t realize it, but subconsciously what you’re thinking is, "He doesn't care about me."

We found that statistically, the vast majority of people do care. The happy couples didn't do that; they switched it. Instead, when the hurt came, it was, "Ow, but no. I know he loves me. I know he cares about me, so he must not have known how that would make me feel or he wouldn't have said it." They switch it in their brain.

Same thing with the husbands. It’s a common thought for husbands subconsciously to think, "Nothing I do is ever good enough for her." No. I know she appreciates me, so she must not realize how that makes me feel. That switch is 100% necessary to have the most happy and abundant marriage.

It actually matches with some of the studies that have been done that I think are fascinating. There was a study done by a professor at the University of Maryland with a group of college students. I love college students because, for 20 bucks, they will submit themselves to almost anything in the clinical setting. You can do almost any experiment on these kids. This study ended up being called the Power of Good Intentions.

What these college students did is they were hooked up to all these electrodes to measure their physiological responses. They also had a device that had a cord that would run behind a partition and it would administer an electric shock—a painful electric shock to these kids. The kids were told one of three different things about the person on the other side that was hitting the button.

Some of them were told that they know this is going to administer a shock, but they think it’s going to help you win money if they do this. So, it was good intentions towards them. The second group was told that button is in the wrong place and people just hit it accidentally; it was random, it wasn't intentional. The third group was told that they know they’re hitting the button and they think it’s kind of fun to cause you some pain—not good intentions.

The level of the voltage, the shock, was exactly the same across all three groups. The physiological responses were totally different. If the people thought they were trying to help them win money, the pain registered at a fairly low level. If they were told it was an accident, it was a little bit higher. If they were told it was on purpose, the pain was higher. The physiological response was worse just because they thought that person had bad intentions.

It works the exact same way in marriage. Your feelings will be hurt. You need to choose to believe that they didn't mean to do it that way, that they care about you. The good thing is that’s not just wishful thinking. We found on the survey that 99.37% of people deeply care about their spouse, even in the most struggling marriages where they were at the most desperate place. Almost everybody cares. The key is whether you choose to believe it.

One of the secrets of the most happily married couples was something that they didn't really realize that they were doing. Some people were doing this on purpose, but often it was just something they had discovered worked and was part of daily life. The wives all tended to do the same five little things for their husbands, and the husbands tended to do the same five little things for their wives.

This wasn't like the five love languages where you find the five things that matter the most to your spouse and do them every day. That matters, obviously, but we were actually shocked to find these five exact things really matter to husbands and wives. As each spouse did these little things, what was happening in the heart of their spouse is it was building up this feeling subconsciously that my spouse cares about me. It was building up this reservoir of goodwill so that when those inevitable shocks happened, it was easier to believe the best of their spouse.

The happy wives tended to tell their husbands thank you a lot. We had been looking for years after having discovered in the study of men—something that is no surprise to any man but is a surprise to most women—that men have a completely different insecurity running under the surface than we women do. If our insecurity is, "Am I lovable and does he really love me?" the man's question is more, "Am I able? Am I any good at what I do?"

We as women don’t realize you big, strong men look so strong and confident, and on the inside, you’re kind of like, "I want to be a great husband, but I’m not sure I know what I’m doing. Somebody’s going to find out I have no idea what I’m doing." We women had no idea that you men have this self-doubt about being a husband, a dad, a salesman, whatever it is.

The need of men is to feel appreciated and respected, like my wife trusts me. I thought, "Okay, that’s good." Learning that my husband needs to know that I respect him is important. I love to hear "I love you," so I need to say to my husband the parallel. I would follow my husband around the house and be like, "Oh, honey, I respect you so much." After a while, my poor husband was like, "I know what you’re trying to do, but it doesn't have the same ring to it."

I had been looking for years to find out what a woman can say to her husband that has the same emotional impact on him that "I love you" does on a woman. In this study, we finally found it: "Thank you." It makes perfect sense because if a man really has so much self-doubt, what could be more powerful than saying, "I noticed what you did and it was good and I appreciate it"?

That’s what thank you says. It hits all these notes. It’s the little things of life, not necessarily the big ones. It’s thank you for noticing that the light bulbs were out and changing them. Thanks for coming home early to take the kids to soccer when I wasn't feeling well. We have no idea how much that fills up a man.

Another thing that the wives tended to do for the husbands is she showed him that she desired him sexually. That was actually something that either was a big deal to her or she knew that it really mattered to her husband, so she was making sure that she was making that a priority. We women think of physical intimacy in marriage as being primarily a physical need. It turns out that statistically for men, actually, the importance of it is primarily an emotional need to feel desired by his wife.

That is so unknown to so many of us as women. In the majority of cases, this is an area that absolutely tells our husband, "I care about you," and gives him that certainty as a buffer against the shocks of marriage.

On the parallel side, the husbands tended to show their wives physical signs of affection when they were out in public. It’s not like, "I’m doing this because I want sex later." It was literally like the husbands would reach across and take their wife's hand when they were walking across a parking lot, or when they were sitting together at church or at dinner, the husband would just reach over and put his arm around her.

When you see the other person do these things later, when she looks for something and says thank you or he puts his arm around you, you’re not allowed to say, "You’re only doing that because she told you to." Believe the best. Believe that was how they feel about you. They just didn't know that that thing mattered. She had no idea that telling you thank you for loading the dishwasher made your day. He didn't know that it mattered that much to have that sense of being encompassed in public as being his. Believe the best when your spouse tries those things.

Another little sign that really mattered to show your love for your wife was things like texting or leaving her a voicemail during the day. Every now and then, a flash comes across your brain of how much you care about her. If you will literally take 10 seconds and send that text message right when you’re thinking of it to say, "I can't believe I’m married to you. I love you so much. I can't wait to see you tonight," or, "This has been such a rotten day. I can't wait to come home to you." It will take you 10 seconds, but the women said things like, "I saved that voicemail." It really does matter.

Guys, you don’t realize it, but when you have had a bad day or the two of you are a little bit at odds, you men can sometimes walk around with the black cloud of doom hanging over your head. When you’re grumpy and you have that black cloud, something is triggered in your wife that you have no idea is there. If you can grasp this, it changes everything.

Just like if women can grasp just how much self-doubt is inside their man and speak into that, it changes everything. What you don’t realize about your wives is that she doesn't feel permanently loved just because you said "I do." For you, the question of whether she loves me is sort of it; it doesn't come up in your head really. Just because she walked down the aisle and said "I do," there is no switch in a woman's brain that gets flipped to the "Oh, I feel permanently loved" position.

She has this question that is still there. Your question is, "Am I able? Am I adequate? Do I measure up? Do I have what it takes?" For her, the question is, "Am I lovable? Am I special? Am I beautiful?" In marriage, it just morphs to "Does he really love me? Would he really love somebody like me?"

If there is an issue, if there is a black cloud of doom following around, if you’ve had a conflict, that question gets triggered. It’s boiling in her gut, and it’s this "Are we okay?" It’s a feeling like nothing is right with the world until that is resolved. It is such a subtle and incredibly potent feeling.

Think about it this way. When you have that argument over breakfast, you’ve got to get to work. You get in the car, you drive away, and what happens to the thought of that argument? Click. It’s gone. Ladies, in your mind, is it gone? No. That underground question has risen up, and that’s the "Are we okay?" That is going to be roiling in her gut until she is reassured.

A powerful message of love to your wife is what the happy husbands did, sometimes without even realizing that it was such a big deal: when you’ve had that conflict, say something like before you walk out the door, "Look, I’m angry. I need to get to work. I need some space. I can't even talk right now, but listen, I want you to know we’re okay." It’s a huge issue for your wife. It’s even huger if you will recognize that the black cloud of doom itself can cause that insecurity and work to pull yourself out of that funk so that when you come back after work, you’re okay again. That is a priceless signal of love. Write down the words: "We’re okay."

The next secret of the happy couples is a perfect example of where what they said to do sometimes was at complete odds with what they actually did. When Jeff and I were doing the research, one of the ways we would arrange interviews was if we were going to speak in a particular city, we would tell the organizer one of the other things we need to do is to have you arrange three or four hour-long interviews with one of the couples in your church that’s the most happily married couple.

We would dig into their lives. We wanted to find out what their advice was. Almost always, one of the top three was, "It’s really important to not go to bed mad." So I would always say, "Oh, yes, absolutely. I totally agree. But do you ever go to bed mad?"

"Well, it’s a really important principle, you know, and we tell young couples..."

"No, I get it, but that’s not actually what I’m asking. I really want to know whether you personally ever go to bed mad."

"Well, sometimes when we tell people this..."

"No, I just want to know, do you go to bed mad?"

And they always said yes. We found out of a thousand couples in this study group, we found three of the happy couples that said they never went to bed mad. In reality, what they had learned is that there were times where you have two upset, exhausted, angry people who are trying to duke something out at 1:00 in the morning. At some point, nothing good is going to come from that point on.

Then we found what I thought was one of the biggest aha moments. It turns out the most important thing isn't what they did the night before; the most important thing is what they did the next day. It turns out that when you wake up in the morning, half the time you’re going to find that having a good night's sleep sort of solved the thing and you wake up and you’re like, "What was that about?"

But they found that if that issue is still there the next day, the happy couples didn't let it go; they addressed it. I will tell you that this was an occasion of great angst for me as I was recognizing what I was hearing. In every single one of these other studies, what we found through this rigorous scientific approach backed up what the Bible had said all along.

Suddenly, in this one, I was really conflicted because all of those happy couples all referenced Ephesians: "Don’t let the sun go down on your anger." So I was really wrestling with this as both a social scientist and a follower of Jesus. Finally, a pastor who was also a counselor started laughing. He said, "I need to show you something."

He pulled out that verse in Ephesians in his old-fashioned printed Bible. If you look, that passage in Ephesians isn't even referring to marriage; it’s referring to living in community and all that. But setting that aside for a minute, pulling out his paper Bible, he pointed to that verse and he said, "Look at that little carrot." You know how sometimes you see in the Bibles there’s a little star or a little cross and it references to another scripture?

I had never noticed this before, but Paul, when he was saying this, he was actually quoting a verse in the Old Testament. He was quoting a verse in the Psalms to his audience, which his audience would have been very familiar with. The context of the overall verse is, "In your anger do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger." He was quoting Psalm 4:4. You can go look it up. Psalm 4:4 says, "In your anger do not sin; think about it overnight and remain silent."

The apparent issue is in your anger, don't sin. If you need to duke it out at 1:00 in the morning to not sin in your anger, do that. But if you need to think about it overnight so you don't sin in your anger, do that. Because that was one of the things that a lot of the happy couples had found: that somebody would say something that they regretted the next morning, someone would agree to something that they felt like railroaded into and they’d resent it the next day, and that in reality, there is a benefit in waiting and actually getting a good night's sleep and then if the issue is still there, to deal with it.

For your wife, if the equivalent of the black cloud of doom is hanging over your head when it’s late at night and you’re arguing, you may be able to click that off and go to sleep. She’s going to be staring at the ceiling all night. It’s really important before you go to sleep to resolve that by being able to say, "Look, we’re okay. I just need to sleep, but we’re okay."

I want to tell you an example of a couple that we talked to who did something and I’m going to ask you to diagnose. I’m going to tell you this little story, I’m going to ask you to diagnose what he was doing. When we said, "Take us through your last fight," one of the guys said, "I’ll just tell you something that happened a few days ago."

He had apparently been working really long hours, like 70-80 hour weeks, because his company was trying to land this big deal. It was all culminating in on Thursday morning at like 6:00 in the morning he was going to get on the plane and go to some other city and sign this massive contract. On Wednesday, he had been working so many hours he hadn't had a chance to get to the dry cleaners, and so he had no clean shirts for this trip.

His wife had three little kids, and so he called his wife multiple times and said, "Look, if are you sure you’re going to be able to get to the dry cleaners? Because if you can't, I can, but I have to because I have no shirts for this trip." She’s like, "Yes, honey, yes, it’s fine." He called her three times to offer three times because he said she could be a little scatterbrain and forget these things with the kids. She said, "No, no, I got it, I got it."

He said, "I arrived home at 10:00 at night to find the dry cleaners was closed and she had forgotten to get the shirts." He said, "I was so mad." I asked, "What'd you do?"

He said, "I went stomping downstairs." Apparently, he does carpentry as sort of a hobby. "I went stomping downstairs to my workshop and I’m down there with the pieces of wood and I’ve got a rubber mallet and I’m pounding the wood together." I asked, "What are you thinking?"

He said, "I’m thinking I’m so furious because I asked her three times and she does this all the time." Then he said, "But that’s not really fair because I know the kids were sick and the baby was needing to go to the doctor and that she had to stand in line at the pharmacist's office and then have to go all the way across town for the other medicine. Then she had still had to go to the grocery store and make us dinner, and she always makes us dinner no matter what’s going on every night. She makes sure to make dinner no matter how late I’m home, and she’s such a good wife, and why am I being such a jerk?"

Do you see what he did? Diagnose for me, what did he just do? It wasn't just that he forgave her; he started thinking about the positive to talk himself out of being mad. That’s something that we found the happy couples did in huge numbers: they focused on the things that were good and excellent and lovely and worthy of praise rather than the things that were worthy of driving them crazy. Philippians 4:8. In the middle of something that was a legitimate concern, they focused on the good things to talk themselves out of being mad.

This was a powerful mechanism because it is so easy for us when we are upset, legitimately upset and legitimately angry, we can talk ourselves further and further into being upset about this and further and further into hopelessness, when instead, an answer can be as close as finding the good that is there all along and focusing on that. Even though this other thing is still out here, focusing on that thing that’s going to change our minds that’s every bit as real as the thing that’s driving us crazy.

It looks like those two things are mutually exclusive: wallowing or having a happy marriage.

Dr. Greg Smalley: I just so appreciate Shaunti's hard work. It takes a lot of effort and energy to do good research. It’s not like she’s saying, "Hey, this is what works in our marriage; these are my ideas." She really does great discipline to ask couples, to analyze that, to better understand what creates the kind of marriage that you’re both thrilled with.

She talked a lot about respect first and foremost. That’s one of those words that we use a lot—it’s in the Bible—but what does it really mean? What does that look like practically?

Erin Smalley: I just looked it up. I’ve never really looked this word up. And yet so many people, both men and women, desire respect. Respect is a feeling of deep admiration for someone or something or a positive, polite attitude shown towards them based on their abilities, qualities, or achievements. It involves valuing other's opinions, feelings, and boundaries, often described as treating others as you want to be treated. It encompasses more, I think often I think of respect as an attitude of honor, but I love that the definition went into abilities, qualities, or achievements. Just having an attitude of honor. I love that.

Dr. Greg Smalley: I think for me, like I’m just sitting here thinking about that definition and what conveys respect to me, I think when you ask for my opinion, when you’re saying, "Hey, what do you think about this?" with our daughter Annie who’s still at home, "This is the issue. What do you think? How what would you do?" There’s just something unique about when I experience you as going genuinely, "I want to know where you’re at. What do you think?" versus just you could do all this stuff on your own. You’ve got to make a lot of decisions throughout the day; it’s not like we can process through every one of those. But there is something that feels so respectful when you value my perspective, my opinion about that stuff before you act on it.

This is the dumbest example of this, but I’m telling you when you come in and you’re trying to figure out what to wear. I mean, I have zero fashion sense. Let's all be honest and admit it.

Erin Smalley: Although today you did well.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Because you put little stickers. The two pandas match that you’ve stuck on my clothes.

Erin Smalley: The Garanimals.

Dr. Greg Smalley: It’s very easy. Thank you. But knowing that that’s not my strength, just the fact that you come in and you say, "Hey, help me think this through. You’re the only other person here." I get all of that. But yeah, and maybe the truth is you’ve tried every other friend or our two older daughters, whatever. But I’m being serious, hear me. I do feel respected when you come in and you ask me, "Hey, what do you think?" I don't care what you ultimately do. There’s just something powerful for me when you’re asking.

Erin Smalley: I feel super respected when I hear you talking to someone else about me. When you’ll say things like, "Erin as a mom," and "Erin as a wife," or "Erin as a counselor, a therapist, a clinician." It just makes me feel very respected and honored when I hear you speaking kindly about me. You can say it to me too, but I especially like it when I hear you just randomly talking about something.

Dr. Greg Smalley: So maybe ask each other. These words like love: "What does it really mean? How would I know that you’re feeling loved?" Respect: the things that Shaunti was really talking about. That’s when we can personalize it.

Erin Smalley: And so often we, within especially the Christian culture, we assume that men are the only ones that want to be respected. I will tell you, as I map people's reactive cycles out, how often women want and desire to be respected and men desire to be loved. So it goes both ways that we want to be seen and valued as human beings. It’s a desire innate within all of us. And so I just think it’s an opportunity to honor our spouse and to be intentional about speaking respectfully and acting respectfully, showing up in honoring who they are as a human being and what they do or their talents or skills, whatever, their achievements, because it does go a long way, especially in a marriage.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Not assuming we know by these big words what our spouse really means by that in that season. So it’s just that habit of just saying, "Well, I’m going to be curious. I’m going to ask, not assume." Jesus talks about love and respect in the Bible. What do those words really mean?

Shaunti has written some wonderful books, and today we’re going to feature two that really cover the areas she spoke about today: *For Women Only* and *For Men Only*. Take a look at the research and interviews men and women gave, revealing their inner thoughts, fears, and needs. It aims to help women and men respectively better understand their spouses.

Erin Smalley: One or both of these books can be yours for a gift of any amount. You can pick them up by going to our show notes; we’ve got all the information right there. We definitely want to say thank you for those who give above and beyond the recommended amounts that are listed for the resources that we offer, because when you contribute to Focus on the Family, you’re keeping this podcast going. We’re able to do this because of you, as well as we have so many other ministries and resources here at Focus on the Family. So you’re a big part of us being able to do those things. You’re making such a big difference in the lives of couples, of individuals all around the world, because every gift really helps us to expand our impact and we’re able to reach more families. So thank you for being generous contributors.

We have a free audio collection of wonderful speakers that share advice on how to cherish your spouse on a regular basis. It’s called the *Nurturing the Heart of Your Spouse* collection, and it will help you discern the needs we have in marriage. That is also available in our show notes, so check it out.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Well, spring has arrived, and this is really the perfect time for reconnection, for new energy. So we thought it would be a great time to recreate your first date. Well, actually, we want to help upgrade that first date.

Erin Smalley: There are a couple of ways to do this. You can go to the same spot if it’s still there, or find a place close to you that resembles it. You can wear similar clothing as you wore on that night, which could be really funny if you’ve been together for a while. You might have to go to thrift stores or pick up something vintage.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Our first date was on a cruise ship.

Erin Smalley: I’d love to go and recreate that.

Dr. Greg Smalley: That’s all I heard is "How can we recreate that?" But for us, I really like when I think about our relationship together, the first date was, in my mind at least, was when you were a nanny. You were nannying these two young kids, and so in the evenings when they were in bed, the parents were back, then you and I would sneak off and we’d just go have fun.

But this one time, I remember we ended up on the top deck and no one was there and we just lay down in these chairs.

Erin Smalley: That’s because everybody was in bed, because everybody on this cruise ship was 80-plus.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Except you and me. That’s why the odds were ever in my favor. So I just remember laying on these chairs and we're in the middle of nowhere, so there were no lights, so we’re seeing all the stars, we're seeing shooting stars. I just remember just the conversation that we had and about anything, everything. It just was so deep. It lasted such a long time, and I just remember thinking, "Wow, that was really fun."

We had been friends for a long time in college.

Erin Smalley: Well, and I dated your roommate.

Dr. Greg Smalley: I wasn't going to bring that up, but thank you. That’s a little painful.

Erin Smalley: And I was great friends with your sister, too.

Dr. Greg Smalley: So as you guys think back onto that first date, the first thing that we encourage you to do to kind of upgrade this is retell what you thought about each other on the first date. So Erin, what were you thinking? What'd you think of me on that first time we were laying on those chairs, looking at the stars, talking?

Erin Smalley: I was thinking kind of the same thing you were saying: "Why have we never dated?" And I was like, "We’re having so much fun and we’re just goofy together and it’s easy conversation."

Dr. Greg Smalley: I remember that you asked all these really good follow-up questions. So as I was sharing thoughts, whatever we were talking about, you just would always go, "Oh, wait, no. Wait, what do you mean by that?" or "Tell me more about this," or "Wow, that sounds great. When else has that happened?" whatever. But I just remember feeling very seen. That’s a big one for me; it’s kind of one of those triggers we talk about as feeling invisible. And I just remember you were so thoughtful in your questions. It just wasn't about you sharing, because you’re so good at that. I mean, you’re a great conversationalist, you can talk and talk and talk. But you were very intentional to kind of balance that out by answering questions and elaborating on things, but then asking me, "Tell me more about that. Keep going." So I felt very seen.

Erin Smalley: I was a counselor in the making. I didn't even know it.

Dr. Greg Smalley: You totally were. Then, you guys can even talk about what you didn't know then that of course now you know. But what are some of those really unique things about you each other that you didn't know then? So again Erin, as you think back to that first date for us, what’s something maybe you didn't know then?

Erin Smalley: I mean, I didn't know that we were going to get married and be married for now 34 years. I had no idea that we would minister together—never in a million years would I have dreamt that—and that we would have four kids, that we would have three biological and one adopted. Just so much of the life that we’ve lived I had no idea.

Dr. Greg Smalley: I mean, when I think about that time, I mean, as I began to know you and just enjoyed you—we laughed a lot—so I knew you were someone that I could have fun with. I knew we could have deep conversations; we could talk about all kinds of things, all kinds of different subjects. What I certainly didn't know back then is how much we’d grow through the difficulties in life. I was very aware of the fun and the positive, but what I didn't really get is how God was going to use these hard moments in our life to really teach us and to grow us in who we are now, who I am now. It is a direct result of some of the pain in those hard seasons that we went through. Not that I didn't think we’d ever have hard moments, but I was just like, "This is so much fun. She’s so much fun. We’re going to have such a blast together." And yet honestly I can say some of my very favorite parts of our love story are the hard moments that we’ve gone through and the scars that those left, but how God has used those and how we are better.

So maybe you guys could even end the reminiscing about that first date by talking about what are some new habits then you want to create now.

Erin Smalley: I kind of said this—we were talking about this the other day—of I want to be able to continue to create the safety that we have within our home and just the relaxed atmosphere, but I also want to make sure that in this next season that we don’t only do that—hang out at home, have fun—but try some new things and make a rhythm of getting more plugged into teaching at church and hanging out with friends—the friends that we’re like, "Yeah, we’d love to have dinner with them," but then we never follow up and actually do it. So I want to be intentional about creating some new rhythms of stuff outside of our home.

Dr. Greg Smalley: I like that. One habit that I want to make sure that’s protected that we keep doing, and I was just reminded of this when we had our Valentine’s Day date, I just went online and asked for, "What are some fun Valentine’s Day conversation starters?" And man, a bunch of them popped up and I copied those, put them on my phone. And so as we sat there on our date, just answering those, they were good ones. They were. I mean, I wish I could take credit. I had nothing to do; I’m sure it was AI that created them. But it inspired such good conversation and I remember thinking, "I didn't know that," or "Ooh, that how I thought you would have answered it—a little bit different." It’s just a great reminder that I want to stay curious and keep asking questions. So, we’ll throw a link into the show notes of some conversation starters that we’ve created. But we just encourage you—don't lose sight of how fun those are even if they’re questions that you think you know the answer to or "Hey, we’ve answered these before." Telling you, every time I ask you something, and we’ve written a ton of these and we’ve answered lots of these, and it always seems like you give me a new answer and I love that. So I want to keep learning and discovering you.

Remember, the first date tells part of your story, but your next habits really are going to write the next chapter. Spring brings so many opportunities to start over for new growth, but it’s always helpful to look back and reminisce too. And looking at your first date, what a great way to begin that process.

Now it’s time to answer your questions. It’s Q&A time. Today's question is an email from Rosanna.

Guest (Female): Greg and Erin, the Bible doesn't specifically address the issue of joint or separate bank accounts. However, I shared verses such as Genesis 2:24, Mark 10:6-8, Ephesians 5:31, and Malachi 2:15, which emphasize that when a man and woman marry they become one flesh. While these passages highlight unity in marriage, they don't directly speak to financial arrangements. How should these scriptures be understood in relation to the topic of managing money as a couple?

Dr. Greg Smalley: Great question. Let's talk about this idea of one flesh. Out of Genesis 2:24, when the scriptures talk about one flesh, it doesn't mean sameness. We never lose the individuality. We don't lose the fact that Erin, you still are a strong individual; I’m a strong individual. It’s really talking about the one flesh, the oneness is more in terms of purpose and direction—where are we going?—and creating that deep bond, that deep connection between us. So really one flesh isn't even trying to address a banking structure. But I love the question because that’s always a good place to begin is to think about our oneness, our unity, how are we protecting that, how are we ensuring that we stay as one flesh. So certainly then how do we apply that idea then to thinking about do we need separate, same bank accounts, all of that. It’s a great way to think through oneness.

Erin Smalley: Because I think one of the deeper level questions are if we have individual bank accounts or joint accounts, are we operating as a team in this whichever model we have or we adopt? Or are we operating as two separate individuals? Because I have seen both go south. There’s reasons people have individual accounts, as well as there are ways that I see that could put the team at risk. But also having a joint account, if certain things aren't happening, I think that can put your team at risk.

Dr. Greg Smalley: I would always start this sort of conversation with what’s motivating this, what’s really going on, what’s happening? Is this fear-motivated? Is this because there’s a problem, something’s happening, something has happened? Maybe there’s been financial infidelity; there’s been financial secrecy. Because there can be a whole lot of very practical reasons why we need to have separate bank accounts. You and I have multiple accounts because we have things like complex businesses and we have reasons why that we need some of that. We didn't make that because there was a fear or we’re trying to guard against something that was happening.

Erin Smalley: What I like that we have done is it’s all in the open. You’re very aware, you have access to my account, my business account, I have access to other accounts. And so it’s all under one umbrella. So it’s very open and honest and it works for our team. But it really is looking at why would we be talking about separate finances? Blended families often have prior financial obligations that they need to offer spousal support or child support. Second marriages often enter in with existing assets.

Dr. Greg Smalley: Or debt that someone brought in and we need to manage that by having a separate bank account. There’s all kinds of very legitimate reasons, which you’re saying. Like what’s motivating this and let's start there and understand what is needed. Because I have had couples come in where they have separate and it is very much like, "Okay, so you are going to pay 50% of this and I’m going to pay 50% of this, and even if you’re unemployed, you still have to come up with 50%." So it’s very much an individualistic and what I see, I often wonder how how can you best make that work because there’s reasons they’ve done that. But sometimes I wonder if it does lead to some separateness and some division within the relationship.

I think in fairness, it can. But like you’re saying, if you start from a place of why, what’s the reasoning behind this, and you really pay attention to the process of how we’re going to make this decision, whether we have separate or joint bank accounts, you’ve got to figure that out. But that matters less than how we arrive at this decision. If we’re committing to total transparency, no secretness, we’re saying, "Hey, let's go to a financial planner or whoever would have some good wisdom around this. Let's talk about this. Let's talk about the reasons why we may need to do this." Either again, past mistakes have happened and we need to protect, there need to be some boundaries. Maybe this is for a temporary season or there’s legitimate business financial reasons why we need to do this.

Telling you, as long as we are saying, "Let's go into this and make this decision together, one flesh," we are a united team. We’re not going to allow the evil one to separate us around finances, so we’re going to figure this out. If we need to draw on people to help us think this through, all those kinds of tools are available. Do that.

Erin Smalley: And it’s remembering that money can tap those very sensitive triggers, fears. Often it can tap into control or emotional safety. And so it’s talking about all those things that are going on underneath the water line, but approaching it all from the point of we are on the same team and we’re going to figure out something that works for both of us. And thank you again, Rosanna, for your question. I hope we got your name correctly; if we did not, we are so sorry. We’ll be sending you your copy of our book, *Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage*.

Dr. Greg Smalley: And if you have a question, boy, we so invite you to leave us a voicemail. You can send us an email as well. The link is in the show notes. Thank you for joining us on *Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage*.

Erin Smalley: Yes, thank you for following the show and sharing it with your friends and family. We want you to have a seat at the table every week as we help equip you and your spouse to have a lifelong satisfying marriage.

Dr. Greg Smalley: We want to see you guys growing spiritually as individuals and as a couple. So you can turn right around and invest in other couples to help them build thriving marriages. Well, thanks for listening. We’ll talk to you again next Monday about this crazy little thing called marriage.

Live your truth. A lot of people say that, don’t they? But truth isn't something we decide; God has decided it for us. And it’s our job as believers to share His truth with a world in need. I’ll encourage you to do that through my podcast, *Refocus with Jim Daly*. I visit with fascinating guests about important topics like gender confusion, cancel culture, and more, while helping you share God's love with others. Listen at refocuswithjimdaly.com.