Countdown 2 Eternity

James Kaddis: Hello, my dear brothers and sisters. I want to welcome you to another episode of Countdown to Eternity. Boy, do we have a discussion for you. I have said this before many, many times, and I will say it again. We are not in a battle between left and right. We are not in a battle between conservative and liberal, as they call it. We are in a battle between good and evil, and folks, we are watching some crazy things happen.

We are going to talk about a case in Colorado that speaks very clearly to what's happening across the nation. I think it speaks clearly to Bible prophecy, and I think that there's a lot to say that we can launch off of when it comes to this discussion. By the way, I can't think of a better person to talk to about this than my dear brother, Andy Woods, who, by the way, is an attorney with a law degree. Of course, he's a pastor, and that's what he does, but he is a brilliant legal mind. We are going to have fun. Andy, how are you doing, my dear brother?

Andy Woods: James, thank you for that warm introduction. It’s great to be here as always. This particular case was a Supreme Court case that just got handed down literally the day of this recording. It deals with a conversion therapy ban out of the state of Colorado. What is a conversion therapy ban? Basically, it's taking 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 and tearing it right out of your Bible. That's what a conversion therapy ban is.

Let's remind people what those verses say. Paul says, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." Listen to this, James. You know this verse well. "Such were some of you, but you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and in the spirit of our God."

You'll notice that verse takes homosexuality and lumps it in with a bunch of other behavior-based sins, just like being a drunkard or covetous or a thief. Paul says you can actually change. A leopard can change his spots. In other words, if you're bound up in those kinds of alternative lifestyles, sinful behavioral choices, and you're in bondage to those things, under the power of the Holy Spirit, you can actually change. You can't change someone's skin color. That's immutable. But you can certainly change behavior. That's what the Holy Spirit does for people. I'm certainly not the man I should be, but I'm not the man I used to be because God is in the business of changing me every single day. A lot of the behaviors I used to engage in, I don't anymore, and there are probably other behaviors that are part of my character that are yet to be stripped away as well. This is basic Christianity 101.

Conversion therapy is basically using the Bible in counseling situations as a professional counselor, as a pastor, as a youth pastor, or just as a friend to come alongside people that are struggling with homosexuality or some sort of similar lifestyle and say you can change. God can change you. A conversion therapy ban comes along and says you can't do that. That's bad medicine. That's bad psychology. That's bad psychiatry. These are the kinds of things that I have felt for a long time are going to be used not just in blue states like Colorado, but around the world. These things are being beta-tested all over the world. There's one in Malta. There's a fellow that just got hauled into the highest court of the land because of a conversion therapy ban based on something he put on social media related to how homosexuals can change. In his case, he was exonerated, but the case should have never gotten off the ground to begin with. They're beta-testing these things all over the world and they want to roll them out globally. I felt for a long time that these are the things that are going to be used ultimately to the persecution of Christians here in North America.

With all of that being said, James, we got some great news today from the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court, in an eight-to-one decision, came along and basically said those kinds of laws, if you're going to have them, have to survive the highest level of scrutiny. As you deal with First Amendment type issues, there are lower levels of scrutiny that the state has to prove to justify a law like this. Then there's intermediate scrutiny. Here the Supreme Court comes along and says the state cannot have this kind of law unless it survives the highest level of scrutiny. This is a huge win for our side, a huge win for our camp, as it now looks like conversion therapy counseling from the scripture can proceed as it's supposed to help people. If people want something to smile about and be optimistic about, this would be it.

James Kaddis: It's remarkable. It's funny that you would mention Katanji Brown Jackson. In her dissent on this opinion, she just said some insane, ridiculous things. It's really bad. Although I don't want to spend a lot of time focusing on what she had to say because some of the concurring opinions are also smart and good. Sotomayor is agreeing with this opinion, but what Katanji said is just amazing. I don't even understand the mindset behind someone who comes to this conclusion. The idea that she says this is going to be one of the most dangerous things we've done, basically putting it on the same level as evil. It's evil to counsel people with the word of God. It's wrong to tell them a biblical worldview. She warned this could lead to unsafe medical care. She says it's less regulation of professionals that states traditionally regulate medical standards, and this weakens protections and allows harmful practices. What kind of protections?

This ruling is big. I can't even emphasize this enough because had this ruling not done what we needed it to do, this could have deeply affected what we do as pastors. Look at Gorsuch. Gorsuch says this. For those of you that have legal backgrounds, you'll understand why this is an important statement that he makes. He says, "No official, high or petty, may command our tongues or silence our voices." This is a very big thing because he's quoting another very foundational case in making this statement which basically speaks to the egregiousness of the pursuit that the state of Colorado was wanting to bring in the play. It's a really important case.

Andy Woods: Let's get the facts on the table here. This was an eight-to-one decision in our favor. You mentioned the lone dissenter, Katanji Brown Jackson. Keep in mind that when she was questioned from the senator of Tennessee during her confirmation hearings, she was asked a simple question: can you define a woman? Her answer was, "No, I'm not a biologist." That's the type of mentality that she has, so it doesn't surprise us that she would be the lone dissenter in this particular case.

But I really like what you said. Had this decision gone the other way, and fortunately, it didn't come close to going the other way, but had it gone the other way, think of the chilling effect that would put on all biblical counseling or just a youth pastor. Someone comes into your office and says, "I'm struggling with same-sex attractions," and you basically open your Bible and say, "You know what? The Lord can change those desires." That type of situation, that type of scenario would be illegal. You could be open to a lawsuit for even doing that. It's so refreshing to see our Supreme Court really come down on the side of free speech and freedom of religion, which is what this whole thing is about.

Here's another thing to understand. When you invent these fake rights, rights that people think that they have based on their sinful lifestyles, it's a zero-sum game. Somebody wins, somebody loses. You expand fake rights, the real rights that actually exist in the legal system in our Constitution in the First Amendment, those always get chipped away and chiseled away. It looks like our United States Supreme Court was willing to recognize this and not once come down on the side of faux rights, but actual legal constitutional rights that people have.

James Kaddis: I love this. As a matter of fact, Gorsuch referred to it as viewpoint discrimination, but he didn't just leave it there. He actually said that it represents an egregious form of content regulation. That is remarkable because he just didn't refer to it as that and leave it alone. He has joined the court in its history in actually speaking about it being one of the most egregious violations of free speech. Then he quotes this Rosenberger case, which I'm not very familiar with. I want to familiarize myself with it. It's Rosenberger versus University of Virginia. He spends some time speaking about why this is such a big deal. Would you expect to see strong language like this when it's an eight-to-one opinion?

The First Amendment stands as a shield against any effort to prescribe an orthodoxy of view. In most simple terms, what it basically means is that the Constitution protects us from the government prescribing what we're supposed to believe. So there's still freedom to live another day worshipping the Lord. We get to still follow biblical precedent and not have to wait for the government to say what we can believe and what we can't believe.

Going back to the discussion of end times and Bible prophecy, it's always been my hope. I've always believed this. I've always prayed that the fact that the United States being inconsequential in Bible prophecy would always be a reflection of the fact that it was vacated because of the rapture. That being the result of a spiritual awakening that takes place. I still have hope for that. I still hope and pray that that will be the case with the United States of America.

Andy Woods: That's my preferred scenario if God were to ask my opinion as to why the United States is not mentioned in Bible prophecy. I would think the rapture would be the ultimate brain drain on the United States because there is one thing about the United States that makes it unique and different than China or any other country you go to today. Christians in this country can rise to the highest levels of economics, politics, business, and even academia to some extent, although that's getting more and more limited with the liberal bias in academia. Even media with alternative media. You go to China or you go to a Muslim country and what are Christians? If they're not outright persecuted, they're nothings in the society. They're street sweepers or something of that nature. America's different. You can go to the highest level as a Christian and there really is no barrier on you. I would think that when the rapture happens, it would damage this country so severely because all of the Christians at the highest levels would be suddenly vacated. That becomes my preferred explanation as to why the United States is not prevalent in the pages of Bible prophecy.

James Kaddis: One hundred percent. That is my prayer. I think it would be useful for us to stop for a moment and talk a little bit about the subject that ties all this together, and that's homosexuality. God has given us tools to be able to overcome our sin, to overcome our sinful addictions and tendencies. We know that in the last days, we are going to see the type of perilous times that will make way for many of these things to be handed over to. I think that this speaks volumes during a time where we should expect to see things getting worse and worse. I think it's a safe statement to say that there's always a glimmer of hope and that glimmer of hope oftentimes comes from understanding that God has a remnant. He's going to preserve that remnant and good things come as a result of that.

Andy Woods: One of the big things that has been pushed ever since I came of age as a Christian is this idea that homosexuality is no different than gender or race or skin color. I think that is such a false equivalence. Of course, the legal system has been trying to hammer this down for a long time because they can sue the daylights now out of the churches that won't hire a homosexual pastor. That's looked at as discriminating against someone because they're black or Asian or Hispanic. They've been trying to develop this false equivalence for a long time.

The truth of the matter is homosexuality is not something that is immutable. It's not like skin color. It's just like all of these other behavior-based lifestyles that can be changed under the power of the Holy Spirit. This type of ruling comes down on the biblical side and recognizes it. The Katanji Brown Jackson mentality is she wants people to go to these places of counseling and to not try to get them to change under the power of the Holy Spirit because they're born that way. She thinks trying to get them to change is like trying to change someone's skin color. She's coming from a non-biblical perspective and I'm just delighted that she lost this particular round.

James Kaddis: If you come at it from that perspective, this is a woman who doesn't know the difference between XX and XY, by her own admission. One letter. It's not like this is a difficult issue to define. If you lack the clarity as a Supreme Court justice to be able to define an issue that isn't even a gender issue, this is a sex issue. What's the difference between a male and a female? There are clear distinctions. So if you're going to take that and you're going to repropagandize it into something that deals with what you would call gender and then mischaracterize gender with something that's altogether different, well then you shouldn't be in the majority here. You would expect that even the most leftist of people would understand the implications of free speech and the ability to be able to actually express the view that's biblical. That's the part that just bothers me. I don't think they've learned their lesson in this. I don't think the country has learned their lesson. The more you try to ban it, the stronger you're going to make us.

Andy Woods: I brought up earlier Marsha Blackburn of Tennessee at Katanji Brown Jackson's nomination. When the president appoints a potential Supreme Court justice, they have to be confirmed by the United States Senate. She was asked at her confirmation hearings, "Can you define a woman?" and she said, "No, I can't do that because I'm not a biologist." She's not even able to articulate the basics of God's creation. When you can't do that, it’s no wonder you get corrupt legal opinions like this dissenting opinion that she authored.

James Kaddis: I think it's a very important issue for us. I have a lot of joy and peace in my heart in the sense that the faithfulness of God to us in a moment like this, when things have just been so dark, is really good. Even the confirmation process that you were talking about. I watched that confirmation hearing for her. I watched the Judiciary Committee do what they did and was so discouraged by how they blatantly ignored so many of the erroneous conclusions that she had come to on purpose. It was propaganda. That's what it was. Yet somehow, some way, God in His grace is still allowing this to manifest in a way that's favorable to the body of Christ. Thank you, Jesus, for that.

Andy Woods: One of her colleagues, Amy Coney Barrett, in an opinion, as far as I can tell, basically attacked Katanji Brown Jackson's intellect and basic understanding of constitutional law. I've never really seen anything quite like that in all my years of reading judicial opinions where one member of the court takes aim at another member of the court on grounds of sheer incompetence and lack of understanding of the basics. This is the type of person that we have up there in her. She needs a lot of prayer.

It is somewhat heartbreaking historically to see people like that sail through the confirmation process whereas people that deserve to be there like the late Justice Robert Bork, his name became a verb because they borked him. That was Reagan's appointee in the late 1980s. He was a man of such stalwart brilliance that had he gotten on the Supreme Court, I think this country would be a different place because he had the intellect necessary to persuade the other justices and jurists into following along with him on conservative rulings. He was a literalist, a strict constructionist. Someone like that doesn't make it on. Someone like Clarence Thomas, if you go back to the 1990s with the whole Anita Hill situation, he barely made it on. Yet someone like the dissenter in this case, Katanji Brown Jackson, sails right through the nomination process. It reminds me of Isaiah chapter five, verse 20: "Woe to those who call evil good and good evil." That's the type of thing that you get when you don't stand up for the basics as far as God's creation hierarchy is concerned.

James Kaddis: Amen to that. How do we bring this home? Obviously, this is really encouraging news. This is a real blessing. What's the exhortation to the body of Christ? We're all excited about this, but what do we do with it? Do we just sit there and watch it, or where else do we go with it?

Andy Woods: To me, this is why we need to be in prayer for those that rule over us. We're very good, myself included, in complaining. I'm not as good at praying for the people that I'm complaining about. We have to understand Proverbs 21:1, that the King's heart is like water in a watercourse. Just as a watercourse directs water wherever it should go, God directs the hearts of rulers wherever they should go. God doesn't call us to be complainers, dissenters, nasty bomb-throwers, name-throwers. What He calls us to do is be intercessors. We need to be in prayer for people like this.

The other exhortation is this week is Holy Week. We have the crucifixion of Jesus coming up that we typically commemorate on Friday. We have the resurrection of Jesus that we commemorate this coming Sunday. What is the gospel? It's about how we have been baptized, and here I'm not speaking of water, I'm speaking of identification. That's what baptizo means. We are identified into the death, burial, resurrection, and ascension of our Lord Jesus Christ. In other words, when He was crucified, so was I. When He was buried, so was I. When He rose to newness of life, so did I. When He ascended to the right hand of the Father, the book of Ephesians is pretty clear that that's my legal position now at the right hand of the Father.

Because we are in Christ Jesus, I have all of the resources necessary to say no to the sin nature. I don't have to white-knuckle it. I don't have to get my flesh to try harder if I'm dealing with sinful impulses in any variety, whether it's same-sex attraction or an addiction to pornography, substance abuse, whatever it is. Because we are in Christ Jesus, we have the ability to tell those sinful impulses no.

The impulses are always going to be there until our dying day or until the rapture of the church, whichever comes first. But because of our co-crucifixion, co-burial, co-resurrection, co-ascension into Christ Jesus, Romans 6 truth, I as a Christian have the power to tell my sin nature no. We need to start living the Christian life that way under His power, not our own. As we do that, we don't necessarily become sinless, but I think we start sinning less, which is pleasing to the Lord and it will lead to a much more fulfilling life.

James Kaddis: Amen. I can't think of a better time than to just simply say that it's never too late to make that decision. It's not based on any work that you do. It's telling Christ, "I trust you. I put my faith and trust in you," and then the transformation happens because it's His work that changes us. We want to encourage you. Take advantage of this. We talked about the premise of this case. The real issue, the real victory in this case is that we live in a country where we will not be persecuted for telling people, "This is how you can change. You can change by putting your faith and trust in Christ, and in doing so, He will transform your life. You don't become that person anymore." I love it.

Guys, I sincerely hope that you've enjoyed watching this as much as we've enjoyed making it, or listening to it if you're listening to us on the radio. We love you guys so much. May God richly bless you. Remember the power of the resurrection. Remember why we celebrate this season. Christ is the reason. We have victory. We have fellowship with God. God is so good. We love you guys. God bless you and seek Him as we approach this very special resurrection day celebration. God bless you.

Announcer: You're listening to Countdown to Eternity with Pastors James Kaddis and Andy Woods. If you joined us late or would just like to hear this again, stop by countdown2eternity.com. Have you heard? Pastor James has a new book. It's entitled "The Last Book." Revelation isn't a book of fear; it's a book of hope. "The Last Book" will give you what you need to know about Revelation, the rapture, and the end times. Learn what the Bible says about the days we're in and what God's promise is for believers in "The Last Book," available right now at countdown2eternity.com. That's also the place to go to give to this ministry. Thank you very much for your financial support and prayers. Again, we're at countdown2eternity.com. Andy Woods is online at andywoodsministries.org. Browse through his latest media, check out some of his recent interviews and available resources. Then join us next week as the Countdown to Eternity continues. This program is brought to you by Calvary Chapel Signal Hill.