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Guest (Male): This is Connect with Skip Heitzig. Thanks for joining us today. Here at Connect with Skip, our mission is to help you know God’s word and apply it to your life through clear, practical Bible teaching and real encouragement every day.

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Skip Heitzig: The old saying, as Johnny mentioned, is never discuss politics or religion with polite company. I am going to violate both of those today for two reasons. Number one, because it’s on your mind anyway. It’s election season. People are asking as believers, should we be involved? If so, how much should we be involved?

And second, because there’s probably no statement that is more controversial for a Christian in the United States of America than that little phrase: "the separation of church and state." Now, most everyone has heard that statement. What I’ve discovered is most people who have heard that statement do not know the origin of the statement, nor do they really know what that statement originally meant.

And because it is so misunderstood, the common thought is this: that people of faith should zip it and not get involved at all intersecting with the political world. That they should keep the cross—that is the church—and the flag—that is the state—totally separated.

However, the people that use the phrase the most are not Christians who think the Bible says this. Most of them are unbelievers who think the Constitution says this. By the way, neither are true. This is not found in the Bible per se, nor is it found in the Constitution. I’ll get to that in a moment.

But most people think it is in the Constitution, that it is constitutionally prescribed as a mandate that religious people, people that have a faith voice, should stay out of the public life and just let secularists run the government. So what has happened is the separation of church and state has now come to mean the separation of the church from the state, that we dare not bring our beliefs into the public square.

Now, I say that’s chiefly the secularists. However, they’re not the only ones. I’ll give you a personal example. A few years ago, I was in Washington, D.C. for a prayer rally, and I had the privilege of being invited to the White House during the previous administration, into the Oval Office to pray for the president. And I did.

Afterwards, and there was a small group of us, we were invited by the president to attend a ceremony in the Rose Garden where the president was going to nominate someone who is now a Supreme Court Justice, her name Amy Coney Barrett. It was her nomination in the Rose Garden. We were invited to stay. We did stay. And it was an event that was publicized on news channels.

Some people saw me on a news channel in the Rose Garden at the White House. They were members of this church. And they were so angered that I was there that they decided, "We’re leaving the church." Because, I guess, pastors shouldn’t be seen publicly, especially in the Rose Garden, especially praying for a president of the United States—maybe particularly that president.

So I’ll just say this. I’ll go on record as saying I would pray for any president or any candidate of any party if they asked me to pray for them. I feel that’s my biblical mandate. You say, "Well, you haven’t been seen praying for this president and this administration." Well, I haven’t been invited. I would if I got invited.

Now, one of our struggles certainly is to balance our responsibility between the church and the state, the cross and the flag, God and government. And I brought you to a passage. It is a passage that is a story that is rendered three different times in the synoptic gospels. I’ve taken you to the Gospel of Mark because in this little paragraph there is a clash. It is a clash between government over an issue of tax law and God’s laws.

Let's look at it in Mark chapter 12. We’ll begin in the 13th verse. "Then they sent to Him some of the Pharisees and the Herodians to catch Him in His words. When they had come, they said to Him, 'Teacher, we know that You are true and care about no one, for You do not regard the person of men but teach the way of God in truth. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar or not? Shall we pay or shall we not pay?'

But He, knowing their hypocrisy, said to them, 'Why do you test Me? Bring Me a denarius that I may see it.' So they brought it, and He said to them, 'Whose image and inscription is this?' They said to Him, 'Caesar’s.' Jesus answered and said to them, 'Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s and to God the things that are God’s.' And they marveled at Him."

Now, what I’d like to do this morning is give you three words. Three words that I think describe the relationship between the church and the state, between God and government, between God’s people and our responsibility to the government. And the words are simple: complexity, policy, and responsibility.

First is the word complexity. The church has always had a complex relationship when it comes to the government and government issues. And that is because some governments are lenient, some governments are not. Some governments are very oppressive and harsh toward people of faith, others are very open and very lenient.

And one of the reasons we have a complex relationship when it comes to government is because we would say politics is antithetical to Christian values. If you think of it, in politics you have an adversarial relationship between two opponents vying for power, using propaganda to demonize the other opponent to win the race.

And that creates a lot of tension. And we as Christians, we don’t like that kind of tension. We’re averse to it. It makes us uncomfortable. In Christianity, we all meet together at the foot of the cross. We are to be peacemakers. We are to keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace.

Now, going back to our text, we notice in the first few verses of the paragraph that I read, it says "they sent to Him." They—we don’t know who "they" are yet—sent to Jesus some of the Pharisees and the Herodians to catch Him at His words. Well, let me tell you, "they" are the religious elite, those who are in positions of power in Judaism at Jerusalem.

"They" being the Sanhedrin, the chief ruling body. They sent some of the Pharisees and Herodians to catch Him in His words. This is a plot. It is a plot to trap Jesus, to turn people, hopefully, against Him, to reverse His favorability ratings, which are soaring.

And so what this does is it highlights the tension between these two groups that are mentioned—I'll tell you a little bit about them in a minute—but it shows you the tension between these two groups and the Roman government, which was a totalitarian regime at the time, and Jesus Himself.

Now, there’s always been a tension, as I mentioned, between religious groups and governments. Religious people generally view government skeptically. But did you know that governments generally view religious people skeptically as well? Christians in the Roman Empire were certainly viewed skeptically because Christians were so different than the average Roman citizen.

They would have their own private meetings. They would not worship the emperor, which was a law to do so. And they took communion. You say, "Well, I don’t understand, they took communion." They broke bread and they drank wine and they said that represented the body and blood of Jesus Christ.

We know that as communion, but that was misunderstood by many in the Roman government who believed that Christians get together and eat people—that they are cannibals. That was the rumor going around the empire: Christianity is a group of cannibals.

Well, this complex relationship reached fever pitch during the reign of Emperor Trajan, around 249 AD to 251 AD. Trajan demanded absolute allegiance and conformity to the imperial cult. What that meant is everyone had to make a sacrifice to the pagan gods. Everyone had to put a pinch of incense on the altar and say the words, "Caesar is Lord."

Once they did this, they were given a certificate—a libellus, it is called. A libellus was a certificate saying you had done your civic duty. Well, many Christians wouldn't do this, for obvious reasons. "Caesar is not my Lord, Jesus is my Lord," they said. But because of that, they were killed. And because they were killed, some Christians, in fact some clergymen, actually stood in line to pay tribute to the Roman gods, to say Caesar is Lord, so that they wouldn't face death.

Guest (Male): You're listening to Connect with Skip Heitzig. Every day, the generosity of friends like you helps reach more people with God’s word, changing lives through clear, practical Bible teaching. And this month, we want to thank you with a powerful and inspiring resource from Skip’s wife, Lenya Heitzig. It's her book *Reload Love: Transforming Bullets to Beauty and Battlegrounds to Playgrounds*.

This remarkable book tells the true story of how God took Lenya’s heartbreak over suffering children in war-torn regions and turned it into a global movement of compassion, melting down bullets to build playgrounds and bring hope where it's needed most. Request your copy of *Reload Love* when you give $50 or more to support Connect with Skip Heitzig. Call 800-922-1888 or visit connectwithskip.com/offer. Now, let's return to today's teaching.

Skip Heitzig: Government is part of God’s way of restraining evil in a fallen world. With government comes law. With government comes a police force or a military force, a court system. Now, think of what your life would be like without any government at all. I know some of you are thinking, "It would sound like heaven to me." Actually, it wouldn’t be. It would be pandemonium.

It would be very difficult to have any kind of safety at all in a society without a government. Anyone could take anything they wanted from you. Anyone could kill you, all without repercussion. So government is a gift of God. But here, this group is trying to trap Jesus, to capitalize on this tension, this complexity.

And I love verse 15. They said, "Shall we pay or shall we not pay?" But He, knowing their hypocrisy—you know, you don't mess with somebody who can read your mind, who knows your thoughts. They don't know who they're dealing with. They're trying to trap Him; He knows their motives, He knows their evil intentions, He knows their thoughts.

In fact, in Matthew’s rendition of this very same story, Jesus says, "You hypocrites!" Why would He dare call them out like that? Because He knew that this argument that they are bringing of "Should we pay taxes or not?" was simply a smokescreen. That behind the little question was a whole different set of evil motivations. So this was a strawman argument.

And when I hear people cry "separation of church and state," I know what they really mean—many of them. What they really mean is they want to silence our faith. They want to keep Christians quiet. "Christians, you shouldn’t be involved in government at all."

What they should do is study a little bit of the words of the founding fathers who actually invited people of faith to weigh in on government issues. And the idea of separation and church and state wasn’t that Christians don’t interfere with the government, but as was said articulately in the video, that the government shouldn’t mess with church stuff.

Now, this phrase, the separation of church and state, some people think is in the First Amendment to the Constitution. Not only is it not in the First Amendment to the Constitution, it’s not in the Constitution at all. The First Amendment to the Constitution reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

The reason that was written is they did not want a repeat in this country of what they came from in England. They did not want the legal establishment by a government to establish a religious denomination, i.e., the Church of England. So the First Amendment was written.

You say, "Well, then how did this phrase the separation of church and state become such a big deal?" Well, what happened is Thomas Jefferson, the newly elected president at the time, was sent a letter by a group of people, a group of Baptist leaders, the Danbury Baptists from Danbury, Connecticut, and they were worried about the First Amendment.

They were worried about the Constitution. And what worried them is that because religious protection, religious freedom was written into law, i.e., the First Amendment, they thought people are going to believe that religious freedom is because of man’s gift to them rather than God’s gift to them. Instead of seeing it as a right from God, people are going to say, "Oh, this is a right given to you by the government." That bothered them.

So Thomas Jefferson, the newly elected president, wrote a letter to the Danbury Baptists. Here’s a portion of that letter, and we’ll put it on the screen so you can read along if you’d like. Quote: "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state."

Notice, the wall of separation that Jefferson is mentioning is to keep government from interfering with expressions of faith. He didn’t want the state to influence the church or to tell the church what to do. That’s the wall of separation. Now, those who cry the loudest about separation of church and state were some of the very ones that violated that under COVID.

Saying marijuana dispensaries, that’s an essential business. Liquor stores, that’s an essential business. Churches, not so essential. And they interfered with church business, violating the First Amendment. So, I think we can all agree that when it comes to this issue, there is complexity.

The second word is policy. Policy. Now, in verse 13, there are two groups that are mentioned. Did you see them? Pharisees and Herodians. They represent two very different positions. Two very different set of policies, even political policies. Let me tell you what they were.

The Pharisees were strict Jews, as most of you know. They hated the Roman government because the Roman government subjected the Jews to them. The Jews were essentially a slave vassal nation to Rome. So the Pharisees hated them. They didn’t hold political offices. However, they did hold great political influence because they were essentially a state-funded religion, like the Church of England.

Then there’s the Herodians. Opposite spectrum, opposite end of the spectrum from the Pharisees. The Herodians were politically inclined Jews who believed in submitting to the Roman government through the reign of the Herod family, thus the name Herodians. They thought we should just submit to Rome, do what they say, submit to the laws of the land for political expediency.

Well, these two groups hated each other. Hated each other! So it’s funny, really, that they’re together. "Let’s get together on this." Because though they hated each other, they hated Jesus more. And that was their common bond—their hatred for Christ. And so they get together.

And they come up with this policy concern about taxes. "Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar or not? Shall we pay," verse 15, "or shall we not pay?" Now, I’ve discovered nobody likes taxes. Is that an understatement? Do you enjoy paying taxes? You do it, but do you enjoy it?

No, but you know that it’s necessary. They pay for roads. In those days, they paid for aqueducts, they pay for military, they pay for police, and all sorts of services that we enjoy are from our tax dollars at work. But in funding Rome with their taxes—and the Pharisees knew this especially—they are funding their own oppression.

They are paying with their funds, money, for Rome to oppress them. And so, many of them refused to pay their taxes. And they knew it was a controversial policy issue, so they bring it to Jesus. "Okay, Jesus, what do you say? Taxes or no taxes?"

Now, no matter how He answers this, there’s going to be problems. That is, if it’s a yes or no answer. If it’s a binary answer, it’s going to be a problem. If Jesus were to say, "Yes, pay your taxes," well, that’s going to anger the Pharisees and they’re going to call Him a Roman sympathizer.

If Jesus says, "No, you shall not pay taxes," the Herodians are going to charge Him with treason. And it’s going to be a real problem. So it’s a catch-22. It’s a "heads I win, tails you lose" kind of a question. It’s sort of like the question I was asked four years ago by many people: "Should I get vaccinated?"

No matter how I answered that, I would be in trouble with somebody. So typically, I would say, "Well, go home and pray about it and find out what God wants you to do." When it comes to involvement, you heard Johnny Moore in the video say that only half of Christians will vote.

Actually, that comes from a George Barna poll that was done recently. He said voter involvement is at an all-time low. One-half of Christians say they will not vote. When asked why they won’t vote, 68 percent will just simply say, "Well, I don’t like politics."

57 percent will say it’s because "I dislike both presidential candidates." Me too. So what do you do if you don’t like either candidate? Here’s what you do: don’t vote personality, vote policy. You’re voting platform. We have two very different candidates for president, but they’re not the only ones on the ballot.

There are many other issues. But two completely different personalities. And I’ve discovered people say, "Well, I don’t like his personality," or "I don’t like her personality." Listen, I’m not looking for a messiah. I have one, thank you. I’m not looking for a savior. I have one. I’m not looking for a pastor-in-chief. I’m looking for a commander-in-chief.

And when you go into the voting booth, you are not just voting for one person. Thousands of people are going to go to Washington and implement an agenda of some kind. Policies of some kind. So that’s why the second word is policy. Vote not personality, vote policy.

Guest (Male): Thanks for joining us today on Connect with Skip Heitzig. Before we go, remember that your generosity helps share God’s word around the world, bringing truth and hope to people who need Jesus. And this month, we'll send you Lenya Heitzig's powerful book, *Reload Love: Transforming Bullets to Beauty and Battlegrounds to Playgrounds*, as our thanks for your gift.

This inspiring story shows how God can turn bullets into beauty and how love can transform even the most broken places into beacons of hope. Give now at connectwithskip.com/offer or call 800-922-1888. We'll see you next time on Connect with Skip Heitzig.