Ask Pastor Mike Fabarez

Speaker 1

Have you ever heard something about hell and wondered, does such a place actually exist? Is it a metaphor or reality? Well, today we have the opportunity to bring that vexing question to Pastor Mike Fabarez right here on Focal Point.

And welcome to Focal Point, Dave. I'm your host, Dave Drouehe, and every week at this time, we clear out our schedule to sit down for an informal Q and A session we call Ask Pastor Mike. He's fielding a question from a listener today that's bound to cause some controversy. It's on the topic of hell.

Now, some people believe it's a fictional metaphor, and others believe it's an actual place. But today we'll get the biblical truth as we join executive director Jay Worton from Inside the Pastor Study.

Speaker 2

Well, thank you, Dave. Hey, Pastor Mike. A somber but important question today on Ask Pastor Mike. This listener writes, is hell a real place?

Speaker 3

Yeah. Unfortunately, the Bible would want us to always remember that hell is a very real place. The book of Revelation talks about the end of time, where everyone who does not have his name written in the Lamb's book of life is judged according to the things that they've done and then assigned a place in what is described in that particular text as the lake of fire.

Jesus talked about it as a place where there is weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth—a place that is very unpleasant, a place of abandonment. 2 Thessalonians says it's a place where God removes his glory from that location. So, all the goodies that people enjoy about common grace, such as friends and family, and all the things that they might think they can do without God, will not be present in hell. There is not a lot of doing anything that is going to be pleasant because God has taken his majesty and his glory and removed it from this place of abandonment.

Not to mention, as Revelation 20 says, there is an active sense of punishment for people who have acted with the knowledge of right and wrong. God says he is going to judge people according to their deeds.

Speaker 2

Some people will say that we just cease to exist when we die if we are not going to heaven. We call it annihilationism. Where do we find that? Or where do they get reference to that in the Bible?

Speaker 3

Yeah, well, Revelation 19:20 talks about the false prophet and the beast being cast into the lake of fire. It says they were thrown alive into the fiery lake. So you could say, well, they're thrown alive there and they must die.

Well, then a thousand years later, in Revelation, chapter 20, it talks about the devil being thrown into that same lake, and it says where the beast and false prophet were also thrown. And they will be tormented day and night, forever and ever.

So we know that the false prophet and the beast, these two human beings at the end of time, are going to go to a place that the devil then is sent to. And then it says they—he wasn't like, you know, they went into this incinerator and now the beast and false prophet are gone.

And now the devil's going to take his turn in the incinerator and then he'll be burned up. It's clear that they're still there after all this time and they're going to be continuing to suffer the consequences of their sinful rebellion day and night as an ongoing expression of an ongoing reality.

Speaker 2

Pastor Mike A lot of people are going to struggle with reconciling the concept of hell or the actual nature of hell with the nature of God or the character of God. He's a loving God. Why would he send people to a place of eternal punish?

Speaker 3

Because he's not just loving, he's also a just and holy God. And even the passage I quoted at the outset in Revelation chapter 20, knowing that he judges people according to their deeds reminds me that he's a loving God. If everyone had the same experience in judgment, that wouldn't be very loving. You got some people clearly that are rebelling much more against God's standard than others. A lot more, you know, many more expressions of their depravity than other people. So God in his love is going to give people exactly what they deserve.

And I don't think there's any, as I've often said, fist shaking in hell, saying I don't deserve to be here. Even in the story that Jesus tells about the rich man in Lazarus, you know, there's no debate from the rich man that he's in a place that he deserves to be. His only concern is for those that still have an opportunity to avoid that place. And he says send, you know, Lazarus back or someone back to warn my brothers not to come here.

So I think everyone will recognize when this life is over that all the judgment of God is going to be just very appropriate and loving. It's going to be exactly what it should be. It's not nice, I realize that. But God is not just one dimensional. He's not just loving; he's also just and he's also holy.

It'd be like kids in detention at school sitting around being punished for their sins and breaking the rules during the day, saying, well, our teachers aren't loving because we're in detention. Well, if it were about, I suppose, just doing nice things, and if detention didn't seem like a nice thing, then you say, I guess the teachers aren't loving. But maybe the teachers are loving; they just happen to also be teachers that are going to keep the rules, and they're also just. They care about standards of behavior in class.

So when people are in the lake of fire and when they experience this, not everyone's experience will be the same. And there will be, I think, a real sense of justice on the part of everyone, that people are getting exactly what they deserve.

Speaker 2

Even we see that in our own justice system, a person caught for stealing is treated differently than a person caught for murder.

Speaker 3

Sure. And any justice system has to mete out justice according to the sin of the person, the crime of the person. And that's where we see God's justice. In this civil law that he set forth for Israel in the Old Testament, not every sin was punished the same. Restitution was different depending on what it was, whether it was a capital crime or whether it was a crime of making restitution. These things were different based on how severe the crimes were.

So God is a God. He's already showed us in the law of Moses that there are differing punishments for differing crimes. As he then takes the tribunal at the end of time and assigns people their judgment, certainly it will be the same way. Not everyone is judged the same. That's why that repeated phrase, "he will judge them according to what they have done," is so important.

Now, you look at Christians on the other side of this, and we think, well, we've done a lot of those things, too. A lot of Christians, you know, getting saved late in life have done a whole lot of those things throughout their lives. But because of the cross, the Father punishes all those things. Jesus suffers hell on that cross and an eternal payment right there so that we are not ever condemned for our sin.

And that's why, like the rich man in that story, we want people to listen to the word of God and hear the opportunity for salvation and not have to suffer the punishment for their sins.

Speaker 2

You just touched on that. But how should that inform us as Christians as we go out into the world, speak a little bit more about that.

Speaker 3

Well, yeah, if there were no hell, I guess there would be not a lot of fervor and focus on evangelism or missions.

Speaker 2

So it's absolutely critical that we understand this concept.

Speaker 3

Well, I think it's going to change how we go about the problem. If you don't think there's really a danger in a house, let's say it's a carbon monoxide alarm that has gone off, and just because you can't see it, you think, well, I don't know. I don't really want to persuade everybody to get out. If they're comfortable where they are, I guess we'll leave them.

But if it's real and that alarm is accurate and the alarm of the scripture has gone off, saying sin is a problem and it will be judged, then we should go in there because we believe there is a judgment and say, we have to get out of here. We have to escape this, as it was put in the Book of Acts, this perverse generation, and be snatched out of this generation of being part of the church, the called out ones saved by God's grace and never to incur the punishment for our sins.

And that is an offer that stands for everyone as long as they live, and at death, then the opportunities are over. It is appointed unto man once to die, the book of Hebrews says, and then comes the judgment. So it should motivate us that until people die, they have the opportunity, as we bring the gospel to them, to not incur the penalty for their sin.

Speaker 2

Well, thank you, Pastor Mike. I know that was a very hard question to tackle, but as you've mentioned, it was a very important truth that we need to address.

So we're going to end this conversation with a message that you've done on the urgency that eternity should stir in us. You called the message Loving Enough to Tell the Truth About Hell.

Speaker 4

By far the most famous piece from this celebrated French sculptor, Auguste Rodin, as the Europeans like to pronounce it, is the work that came to be known as the Thinker. You know the one: the contemplative man sitting on a rock, in desperate need of some clothing, looking down with his chin dug into the back of his hand. Right. You've seen him frequently. It's used as an image in college catalogs and on websites to represent the field of philosophy.

But actually, Rodin carved and created this statue just over 100 years ago, not to have us think of philosophy, but to have us ponder the tenets of theology. You see, he initially entitled this work the Poet, not the Thinker. And the one that he had in mind was the 14th century Italian poet named Dante. Dante, you might remember, was the one who wrote this epic poem, the first installment of which is called Inferno, which is the Italian word for hell.

Now, Rodin created this image to be looking down and to be pensively and reflectively pondering those who were entering what Dante and he called the gates of hell—the portal, the entrance to hell. Now, that scene is disturbing.

Speaker 3

Best.

Speaker 4

If you ever get a chance to look at a good representation, a good-sized cast of what we call the Thinker, you'll see his face is not trying to untangle some philosophical question about, you know, "I think, therefore I am." This is a man who's gazing down at a tragic scene of men and women shuffling into their eternal abode. Lost men and women. The scene is made even more poignant if you've ever read Dante. When Dante described the gates of Hell, he described it in his poem with an archway over the top of it that read this: "Through me you pass into the city of woe. Through me you pass into the pain that is eternal. Through me you go among people lost forever. Justice moved my exalted Creator, the divine power made me. Before me all things were created, eternal and eternal I will stand. Abandon every hope, you who enter here."

Now take in for a moment what Rodin intended for you to come away with. As you see the poet looking down at this scene and imagining the fate of lost men and women departing into outer darkness, away from the presence of God and into their eternal retribution. Three thousand years ago, Solomon wrote that there's a time to laugh, but there's also a time to weep. He said there's a time for dancing, but there's also a time for mourning. Well, it seems like modern Christians don’t have any time for weeping and mourning anymore. No place for that. We avoid it at all costs.

But we cannot be honest students of the Bible without recognizing that as we read through the text, we're struck with a lot of difficult and hard doctrines that any thoughtful Christian should be impacted by in a really poignant way—with pain and weeping and, as Calvin said, with great dread. And I'd like to begin number one on your outline by having you jot down a very simple phrase that I hope would become the pattern of your life. It's what Rodin's statue was intended to invoke in your heart, and that is that we would routinely ponder God's judgment.

Do you understand what's at stake? I mean, if this is all just bedtime stories and fairy tales, well, then move on to something else. There are better ways to teach your kids morality. But if you understand the real issue that we have a sin problem, that is going to lead us to the just tribunal of a holy God, the only response is God pouring out his just and measured retribution on sinful people. And we celebrate the death of the Lord Jesus Christ because there is one place in the universe where his justice has already been. And the deal is this: you cling to that with a repentant, contrite heart, and you don't have to suffer the condemnation that you rightly deserve. If we don't get that, we've missed the whole point.

Let's look at some red letters for a little bit of a preview of what Jesus continually says about this topic. Turn to Luke, chapter 12. I'm tired of being castigated by our society, even our Christian culture, for talking about things that Jesus wouldn't leave alone. Stop with your little caricatures of, "Oh, just a hellfire and brimstone preacher." Well, I guess you might as well put Jesus there too because he wouldn't stop talking about it.

Look at verse four: "I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that they have nothing more they can do." Now, I'm afraid when I think someone's standing before me who has the intent or the motive or the ability to kill me. I don't like that. That's a scary situation. But Jesus says, "Listen, it's really nothing by comparison. Because once they kill you, Mike, that's all they can do. When you're done and you're at the morgue and you're on the gurney, what else can they do to you? There's no more pain they can inflict in your life."

Verse 5: "But I will warn you whom to fear. Fear him who, after he has killed the body." That's enough to disturb people's little flowery image of Christ right there. Christ is talking about a God who can today put you in a mangled car accident in South Orange County and end your life. He has the power to do that. He's the God of all providence and sovereignty. But that's not all he can do. After he's killed the body, he has the authority to cast you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

I can look through all the kids' VBS material I want, and I'm never going to find a theme based on that verse for our third-grade curriculum. Oh, we don't want to scare Susie and Billy into becoming Christians. Did you just read verse five? "I will warn you whom to fear. Fear him who, after he's killed the body, has authority to cast you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."

"Night, honey. Sleep tight." Jesus doesn't seem to have the same constraints as you do. I'm going to scare people into heaven. Jesus wasn't real concerned about that, apparently. Yes, I tell you, fear him. I don't like that kind of preaching. Great. Let's just go on the record. You don't like Jesus's preaching because this is the incarnate Son of God.

Drop down to verse 49. We've talked about this many times. There are two installments to the advent of Christ: Advent 1 and Advent 2. Advent 1: He came to bear our sin. Advent 2: Those that are unrepentant receive his judgment. Look in verse 49: "I came to cast fire on the earth." Now there's that image, that motif, that analogy of his judgment. This is the picture of his judgment.

Now look what he says. "Oh, I really don't want to do it because I love those people." Is that what he says? Is that what the next phrase underlines? The next phrase? This is not how we picture the modern Jesus. "And would that it were already." Do you hear the disdain and frustration in his voice as he walks through the streets and hears gossip, sees people with lustful eyes, and hears about adultery, greed, bribes, and kickbacks? He listens to all the things relating to murder, divorce, and homosexuality, and a feminism being exalted in society and all the theaters and what's going on. He says, "Oh, that it were already kindled, ready to start the judgment on this planet."

That's the Jesus of the Bible. God, if he is not just, is not good. And if God is not good, he is not God. I don't know how many times I've said that. But how important is this doctrine? You and I need to routinely ponder the judgment of God. Let it motivate you.

Speaker 2

Please.

Speaker 4

We've got a job to do. Paul said this? Clearly he wasn't. This is Romans, chapter 9, verse 2. He says, I have great sorrow and.

Speaker 3

Unceasing anguish in my heart.

Speaker 4

Do you know the context of that? I wish that I myself were accursed and separated from Christ so that my kinsmen, my brothers, the Jewish people, could be saved. He wants to trade in his salvation for theirs.

I mean, I know this is literary and rhetorical, but what's his point? It's killing me that my friends are going to hell. Have you even struggled over that lately?

Speaker 3

Thinker. The thinker.

Speaker 4

Next time you see the image, remember what Rodin wanted you to think about: that if your friends don't repent and put their trust in Christ.

I'm not claiming he was a religious Christian or anybody you'd want to go listen to lead a Bible study, but he certainly captured what Dante was going for.

Speaker 3

For, and that is this.

Speaker 4

You'd better understand what's at stake, and it should affect you to the place where you're motivated, like the apostle Paul, to do something about it. There's almost a comical statement that comes next in Luke chapter three. I get the fact that he's continuing on the theme. He's holding our head over it, man. There's going to be judgment for those that are unrepentant. I got it. And we've learned from it. Let's routinely ponder that. Let's regularly go back to think about that.

But then this weird statement in verse 18. Are you with me here? Luke, chapter three, verse 18. So with many other exhortations, he preached good news to the people. Like the soundtrack just changed in verse 18. What are you talking about? You've been talking about axes at the root of the trees. You've been talking about cutting fruitless trees into the fire. Now you're talking about chaff being burned up and you're telling me this is good news? Really? Oh, and with a lot of other things too, he kept talking about the good news.

What good news is that? I think what we need to recognize about the good news of Jesus Christ, which is different than the good news of most people today, is that it seems people that have no time for the bad news. The good news of Christ is predicated on the bad news. And I'm sorry if this is preaching to the choir, because you've heard me say it 25 times. But there is no good news without the bad news. If I don't understand why I'm building the ark in my backyard, if I don't recognize why I'm telling my neighbors to get a seat on the ark, if I don't really ponder the fact that drowning is a terrible way to...

Speaker 3

Die.

Speaker 4

Then it's all just an exercise in academics. It's all just say, hey, you want to get a picture by the ark I'm building? Really cool.

Speaker 3

Isn't.

Speaker 4

Makes no sense. You and I need to number two on your outline. We need to see the good in telling the truth. You see, a major component of the gospel is the bad news. That sin requires God's justice to punish us. If you don't have that, you don't have the truth of the gospel.

Hey, in a day when everyone's careful not to hurt anybody else's feelings, I was amazed a couple summers back with my obligatory family trip to D.C. to move into the Jefferson Memorial. After having gone to several, I was done. Dad's usually done after the first one, but I walked into that one reading the marble walls there and the Northeast panel on the Jefferson Memorial. There was an excerpt from one of Jefferson's letters. Not a paragon of Christian theology, by the way, but there was something there on the wall that I thought, you know, we're not even courageous, it seems, in our evangelism to talk about God's justice.

But here I am in a, you know, a taxpayer national park reading about something that causes an Orange County pastor to pause and go, wow, that's it. Can we at least have the boldness of the phrasing from the Northeast panel of the Jefferson Memorial? Which, by the way, if you look up the original letter that Jefferson wrote, he's talking in the context about the wrath of God. And then he says in the next line that's inscribed on the wall, "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just and that his justice cannot sleep forever."

Hey, if you're not bold enough to talk about hell and the torments of unquenchable fire, can you at least have the boldness of the Jefferson Memorial? Have a little conversation this week about, you know what? I just tremble at the thought of God being a just God and that his justice isn't going to lie dormant forever. Concern for you about the justice of God.

You see, because we as Christians are either part of the problem or part of the solution. If we're overly concerned about hurt feelings or achy bellies, you're going to redact the message and just reduce ourselves to nothing other than a bunch of impotent, ineffectual do-gooders in society. You can go from almost one church website to the next, and that's what it is. Or you can be part of the solution.

If perhaps, as we started it, makes you look down and ponder in your imagination those who will enter the turnstile of the eternal abode where there is no hope and a God who rightly dispenses that kind of justice on the impenitent, then we've done our job here today.

Speaker 1

A sobering message and a powerful reason to boldly share the good news before it's too late. You're listening to Pastor Mike Fabarez on Focal Point in a portion of his message, "Loving Enough to Tell the Truth About Hell." Now, maybe listening today brought to mind someone who needs to hear this message. Well, you can get the full unedited sermon when you go online to focalpointradio.org.

I don't know if you've experienced being at the bedside of someone about to enter into eternity. It's tough. But bearing eternally good news when the outlook is bleak is a sacred privilege we're given as ambassadors for Christ. The Gospel is a truth worth sharing, and as you do, you'll understand how your sacrificial giving reaps a great reward in God's economy. As you give sacrificially to Focal Point today, you're changing lives for eternity. That's a principle you'll find in our featured book this month, "God and Money." In it, you'll be introduced to seven core principles of Biblical wealth and giving. These principles are nothing short of revolutionary. Follow them, and you'll be transformed with a new outlook on finances and future security. Imagine being free from financial worries for good. Give your spending habits a spiritual makeover with the book "God and Money." Request it by calling 888-320-5885 or go to focalpointradio.org.

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I'm Dave Drouehe. So glad you could join us today. Pastor Mike Fabarez returns to our study in Luke after the weekend, so be sure to come back Monday for Focal Point. Today's program was produced and sponsored by Focal Point Ministries.