Ankerberg Show

Narrator: Welcome to the John Ankerberg Show Classics Edition. For decades, we've been privileged to host esteemed scholars discussing a wide range of topics from apologetics and science to biblical prophecy and beyond. Join us as we revisit these timeless conversations and make them accessible to you wherever you are.

Dr. Wayne Barber: I wake up some mornings, John, and I'll be honest with you, I don't even feel like a Christian. I could care less about wanting to be one. That's just the way I wake up. You heard about the old boy who said, "Lord, I haven't coveted, I haven't had a lustful thought, I haven't lied, I haven't cheated, but I'm about to get out of bed."

I don't have the ability to do what God's told me to do. I can't live the Christian life. So therefore, someone lives in me to strengthen me, to enable me, to give me the ability to do what he expects out of me. Yes, I have a brand new nature, the partaker of the nature of Christ, but I still have my flesh to deal with. And that is a battle royal that begins the moment we receive Christ into our hearts.

Dr. John Ankerberg: My guest today is conference speaker, author, and pastor, Dr. Wayne Barber, pastor of Woodland Park Baptist Church in Chattanooga, Tennessee.

Dr. Wayne Barber: He lives within us to enable everything he demands from us. That's the good news. That's the beauty of the gospel. It didn't just stop at salvation. It started. Christ comes to live in us. He is our eternal life. He is our life. And that's what people need to understand. The same way you received him, the same way you walk. Just trust him.

Dr. John Ankerberg: Welcome to our program. I've got a terrific guest for you today. His name is Dr. Wayne Barber. I've invited him because I think he's the best that we have in Christianity helping Christians who've grown up in church all of their life and been told how to live the Christian life. They've tried, they've tried their best, and they've failed miserably.

Maybe I'm describing you right now. You're frustrated, you're discouraged, and there's something missing in your Christian life. You don't know what it is. Maybe you've even given up. That's why I've invited Wayne to come.

But today we're going to start with a question that I'm concerned about for all of you that are listening. Many of you have watched the program for a long time, and I wonder, do you really know the Lord Jesus? We're going to start with what are the basics of salvation? How do you get into this Christian life?

Wayne, you were 34 years of age. You were eight years a youth minister. You were already in the ministry, and you came to the realization you weren't a Christian. I'm afraid for a lot of our people that go to church every Sunday. We got a lot of folks that are not Christians that don't go to church. They want to know what this thing is all about. We got people in 200 countries that are listening. They want to know what is Christianity? What makes it different? But let's start with those that are even inside the church like you. What was the information that you were missing that God showed you? Let's talk about how you actually become a Christian. What are the basics here?

Dr. Wayne Barber: In my own experience, growing up in a church family, you understand very quickly that you can sin. I had no doubt about that. But I didn't understand that I was a sinner. You do what you do because you are what you are, and that was when I saw the difference.

It's like in scripture, there's—we're going to be talking about the good news, but there's some bad news. The bad news is that what happened, it says in Romans 5:12, "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned." Then you drop down to verse 18, "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men."

How in the world could that have happened? Well, it takes us all the way back to the book of Genesis. We see there that Adam—mentioned as Adam by the way in the New American Standard translation in verse 20 of chapter two—really means "man." But the first time we see the word Adam, we see that God created him first of all. That's not politically correct, but that's biblically accurate. People don't understand what the Word of God says.

It says in verse 26 of chapter one in Genesis, "Then God said, 'Let us make man in our own image, according to our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.'" Let's make man an extension of our life. Let's make man an expression of our character, and let's make man as an exhibit of our power. So far, so good.

But then we see a condition that God put on man, and that condition was all the trees in this garden that I've placed you in—must have been a beautiful place—you can eat of the fruit of those trees except for one. Isn't it interesting that God put one condition there? Of all things, Adam, who had all the fruit of all the trees, chose to disobey God, which is what sin is. It's disobeying God.

When he did, he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He ate of that tree of life, and as a result of that, he was cast out. It's interesting what Romans says, that in one man's sin, sin entered the world, and death by sin. So there's not just a physical death here, because when he sinned, he didn't die physically. However, he died immediately spiritually, and physical death became a reality to him.

Now, here's the problem. All of mankind was yet unborn in the loins of Adam. So when he sinned, it kicked into a virus, the human race. And that virus is incurable because it separates us from God. He lost the life of God. He lost the ability to fellowship with God. He was separated from God. We're all born under that same condemnation. That's the bad news.

Dr. John Ankerberg: What is the good news? I mean, we've all realized we've followed in Adam's footsteps and we have sinned. There are people that are listening right now who would categorize themselves as big sinners. I'm kind of worried about the folks that go to church and they think they're little sinners. Because they're little sinners and everybody does it, we're all going to heaven. How serious is sin?

Dr. Wayne Barber: I'd say it's very serious because God hates sin and it's a separating thing between us and God. It's kind of like the NFL game one year, and it was the Super Bowl. The guy almost made it to the goal line, which would have won the game. He was a foot short, but he didn't quite make it. There's not a man on this earth or a woman on this earth that can satisfy the standard that God has for us. So sin, no matter how big or how little, separates us from God.

Dr. John Ankerberg: Jesus said, "Be ye perfect even as your heavenly Father is perfect." I don't care about your sin, but if you say, "Are you perfect?" I just say check with your wife on that one. I don't think there's anybody that is perfect. If we're not, we're not going to be in heaven. We're separated from God. So what's the good news? What's the remedy? If I'm unsaved and I'm talking to you and I'm saying, "What does this word 'saved' mean anyway? What is it?"

Dr. Wayne Barber: Well, it means to be rescued, to be delivered from something. But we have to understand what we're delivered from. The dilemma is we're all headed towards hell, separated from God forever without this good news. The good news is John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life."

Dr. John Ankerberg: Be the scholar, the Greek scholar, at this spot. I want to know, what does the word "believe" mean? How does the Bible use it? There's all kinds of ways in the Greek. You're a Greek scholar on this, so let's go technical for a moment. What does the word "believe" mean so I know that I've done it when the Bible says I'm supposed to believe that Jesus died and paid for all my sins?

Dr. Wayne Barber: The word "believe" itself comes from the root word *peithō* in the Greek. The word means to be so convinced, convicted, of what we say we believe that we're willing to bow down and act upon it. If a person hasn't acted upon what he says he believes, he's never believed.

It's like the fellow back in the 1800s that said he could walk across the Niagara Falls on a tightrope. He did. I can see the crowd now. "Bring the camera. We're going to watch a guy fall off Niagara Falls." So he gets up there and says, "How many of you believe that I can do that?" Everybody raised their hand.

He does. He walks across and comes back. Then he takes a wheelbarrow and puts a lot of weight, about 200 pounds of weight, in it. He says, "How many of you believe I can push this across?" "This is it. A guy falling off of Niagara Falls with a wheelbarrow. We've never seen a picture like this. We believe." Sure enough, he goes across and comes back.

He says, "Now how many of you believe this time that I can put a man in the wheelbarrow and push him across?" Everybody's hand goes up. So he points to somebody's hand on the front row and he says, "Hey you, sir." "Who, me?" He said, "You've got your hand up. You say you believe. Come on up here and get in the wheelbarrow and let's show them." "Oh, no. I had a cramp in my arm."

All of a sudden, everybody had a cramp in their arm because believe has got to get in the wheelbarrow. We can say we understand who God is, but that's really not scriptural belief. Belief is acting upon what we say we mentally, fully grasp and comprehend.

Dr. John Ankerberg: We're going to get to the word "repentance" coming up here. Part of repentance is you got to change your mind. There are people in 200 countries that don't even believe Jesus is God. You got to change your mind about God. You got to change your mind about who Jesus is and what he did. God sent him into the world to die for the sins that we've all committed. You may not understand that, but that's what God said. He wants you to believe that. He says when you put your trust in my Son and what he did for you, then this other word comes up: you're justified. What does the word "justified" mean?

Dr. Wayne Barber: The word justified is an awesome word. Just as if I'd never sinned. Of course, I've got a story about that.

Stephen, years ago, went down to see the Florida-Georgia football game, my son Stephen. I told him on the phone, I said, "You'll never get a ticket." But he did. He called me and said, "I got a ticket." He told me how much he got it for, I think $30 a piece, which was a good deal.

He walks in and somebody stopped him and said, "Son, how much would you take for those two tickets?" He said, "$50." He's a college student and he's broke. He was going to make some money off of them. The guy says, "You're under arrest." Put handcuffs on him, took him to the jailhouse of that particular city.

I get this phone call from one of Stephen's friends. He says, "Mr. Barber, I hate to tell you this, but Stephen's in jail." I started laughing. I said, "He's not smart enough to be in jail. What did he do?" He told me what he did.

Sure enough, I called the desk sergeant and the desk sergeant said to me on the phone, "Mr. Barber, I'd leave him in here." I said, "I like you a lot. Why would you leave him in here?" He said, "Because the judge that comes in in the morning, he hates this law, and he will wipe this off his record."

Sure enough, next morning, the judge came in. He says, "As far as the state of this state that you're in right now, they have no record of your ever being here. You have been," as we would say it biblically, "you have been justified." Just as if you'd never sinned. That's the word justified. Made right with God. Nothing we did to earn it, but through Christ we've been justified.

Dr. John Ankerberg: I love Romans 5:1, "Therefore being justified by," not our works, "but by faith" in Christ, "therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God." It is great to know God says we have peace with him through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, we're going to take a break. When we come back, we're going to the next word. The Bible says also we got to repent. You got to believe and you got to repent. This is a controversial word. People say, "I want to know how do I repent and how do I know I've done enough?" We're going to talk about that when we come right back. Stick with us.

We're back. We're talking with Dr. Wayne Barber and we're talking about this very important topic. What are the basics of how a person comes into a relationship with Jesus Christ? Maybe you're a non-Christian, you really want to know what the score is. If you're a Christian, I'm asking you to listen because I fear that a lot of Christians have never really stepped into the reality of knowing Christ. You got a lot of knowledge in your head, but like Wayne was talking about, you've never got into Jesus' wheelbarrow and entrusted yourself into his hands to trust him.

So Wayne, review a little bit of what you said, and then let's move on to the next one, which is what is repentance?

Dr. Wayne Barber: Adam's sin in Genesis chapter three. As we understand from scripture, now all of us have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death." That's the bad news. But then he says, "But the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus."

So what we've talked about so far is there's been some bad news. All of us are born into sin. That's a problem in our world today. People say it's this or it's that. No, it's a sin problem. Until we come to an understanding of that, as God reveals it through his Holy Spirit and we come to bow before Christ, we don't understand the other side of the good news. The good news happens when Jesus comes into our life.

Dr. John Ankerberg: What is repentance?

Dr. Wayne Barber: Faith and repentance are two sides of the same coin. Some people argue about which is first, which is second. But the bottom line is if it's true belief, it's going to lead to not only a change of heart, but a change of mind and a change of life. To me, they're so married it's ridiculous to try to argue over it. It happens instantly when a person bows before Christ and truly believes.

We talked about belief. What is it? It's not just up here. It's a matter of the heart. When that heart is laid down before him and when that receiving of the Lord Jesus comes in, then to me, the repentance flows out of that.

Dr. John Ankerberg: And it's something that God does to you. You can't manufacture it. Now, to what extent do I need to repent? People say, "Have I repented enough?" Because we're going to talk about—you're going to finally figure out—you're attached to this sin, this flesh in your sin, all of the rest of your life even as a Christian. So you're going to have desires and you're saying, "Did I repent enough? Did I have enough faith? How do I know? How do I gain assurance that I really was saved?"

Dr. Wayne Barber: The assurance comes from God's word. It comes from the witness of his Spirit in Romans chapter 8 verse 16, "His Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we're children of God." But it also comes from documenting it in the Word of God.

When I think about it, I think about when I got married. I walked down the aisle and Diana was so beautiful. She came down and the preacher was saying all the vows that I was supposed to repeat. I had no clue what he was saying. I had no idea what I was giving myself to. But as far as I understood, I agreed with him.

But now we've been married 43 years. I've understood a whole lot more about what happened that day than I did that day. A lot of people, when they become a believer, don't understand that's a starting point. It's not an end, it's a beginning.

So when they come and they offer all of themselves that they understand to all that he is that they understand, then that begins the process. And then it grows, it grows. Oh my, the next day you find out what else you didn't lay down. But it's a moment of trusting him. If there's anything else added to it, then we're not saved. Salvation is by grace. That's the only other way. There's no other way.

Dr. John Ankerberg: There's been, I think, an unfortunate emphasis on the works that ought to be there because you became a Christian. People have actually said you ought to look at your life to see if you really got saved. Interestingly, John Calvin actually said himself, if you do that, you'll be miserable all of your life because you're still not going to be perfect. So again, what is the basis for assurance? If you're not looking at that, where do you need to look?

Dr. Wayne Barber: I think at the witness of the Spirit within your life. To me, the change of your heart, it's a heart deal. Once the heart changes, we've partaken of his divine nature. That's a different deal. We didn't have that nature before. Now that his heart is within us, he works within us pulling us to the Father. He pulls us that way. There's automatically, overnight, a divine prejudice of the will that God gives to us.

Dr. John Ankerberg: Describe your "before and after," before this happened to you and after.

Dr. Wayne Barber: Before, it was all performance, check off the boxes. I did this, I did that, I must be alright. Then I thought it was the prayer that saved me. Prayer doesn't save anybody. It's Jesus that saves us. It involves a prayer, certainly, as we come before him. But I kept trying to re-pray the prayer. I kept trying to check off another list.

But finally it dawned on me, wait a minute, the law is condemning everything that I'm doing. We'll talk about that later. But that very law was given by Christ. Then he comes into the world which he himself created. And then he takes our sin burden upon himself. He lives a perfect life as a man, God-man, 100 percent God incarnate. He goes to the cross, pays the debt he didn't owe when we owed a debt we couldn't pay, and then resurrects and ascends back into heaven. Then he sends his Spirit to come and live within us.

That's the witness, is his Spirit comes to live in us. It's the mark on us. He came into the world to convict us of sin and of judgment and of righteousness. He's there to let us know now. And now we have a struggle that we get into real quickly.

Dr. John Ankerberg: Let's talk about this thing of the struggle after you come into being a Christian. You had a lady come up at church and say something that was very interesting. Tell us what it was. We want to get into this word: what is sanctification?

Dr. Wayne Barber: Sanctification is, in my definition, learning to live out what God says we already are. That's bottom line to what we're talking about right here. Through God's Word, we know him. But also through God's Word, we begin to understand what we've become. In Colossians he says you're already complete in the Lord Jesus Christ.

So this lady came up to me and she said, "Wayne, when I got saved, all hell broke loose." My first answer to her was, "Welcome to the normal Christian life." But she said, "You didn't tell me about this." It puts us into an arena we were never in before. In Romans, Paul says before you were saved, you weren't worried about righteousness. That wasn't a big deal. But now that you're saved, it becomes a real struggle. And that's Romans chapter six, when he talks about the struggle that we have with the flesh. Yes, I have a brand new nature, but I still have my flesh to deal with. And that is a battle royal that begins the moment we receive Christ into our hearts.

Dr. John Ankerberg: We're going to talk about that up ahead. We got one program—our flesh is addicted to sin. What has God done to help us overcome that? But we got a minute left, Wayne. For people that say, "I would like to invite Jesus to come in, I'd like to have that reality of the Holy Spirit in my life, I need my sins forgiven, I know that," I'd like you to say a prayer that they could say with you right now where if they really mean it, God will save them. Christ will come in. Say the prayer.

Dr. Wayne Barber: Father, I come before you right now, understanding that I'm a sinner. Lord, knowing that I've sinned is one thing, but Lord, I understand that I'm a sinner. Lord, I understand from scripture where that comes from. I was born into Adam. I was born up under the curse of sin.

But Father, I want to thank you that you loved me enough that you sent your Son, Jesus Christ, into this world, and that he went to the cross, paid a debt that I owed, that he did not owe, and Lord, a debt I couldn't pay. Father, I just ask right now that the Lord Jesus come into my heart and save me. Save me from my sin. Save me from myself. Thank you, Father, for what salvation truly is: a rebirth experience. Thank you for this precious gift that you've given us in Jesus Christ. In his name we pray. Amen.

Dr. John Ankerberg: Amen. Thanks, Wayne. The Bible says "whosoever"—that means you—"shall call upon the name of the Lord," if you prayed that prayer that's what you did, the last three words: "shall be saved." That's what God did to you.

Now folks, next week we're going to talk about once you start with Christ and he comes in, like that lady said, all hell breaks loose. What is this thing that we're fighting inside of ourselves? Why is it that you've heard all these sermons, you've tried to live the Christian life, and you've failed? You are a Christian, but you've failed in living out what Christ talks about. Wayne's going to talk all about that next week. This is joyful, wonderful, terrific information. You won't want to miss it, so join us then.

Narrator: Now, stay tuned as we revisit these timeless discussions and join us in celebrating the wealth of knowledge that continues to encourage and educate. To learn more, please visit jashow.org. That’s jashow.org. Or subscribe to us on YouTube.