A New Beginning

Announcer: Coming up today here on A New Beginning, Pastor Greg Laurie speaks with Pastor Chuck Swindoll on the incredible care and providence of the Lord.

Greg Laurie: God had a plan for us even before we were born. And I can see, like the Psalmist says, "In my mother's womb, you formed me." And I can see that even the bad things that happened to me in my life were preparing me to see my need for Christ.

Chuck Swindoll: It's remarkable. His hand was on you all along.

Singer: This is the day when the lost are found. This is the day for a new beginning. Amazing grace, how sweet the sound. Oh, can you hear all the angels are singing? This is the day, the day when life begins.

Announcer: Each of us is influenced by others. There's no doubt about it. We need to choose our influencers well. And this week on A New Beginning, we're hearing from some gentlemen who have influenced millions to walk more closely with God as we present Legends Week.

Earlier, we heard war hero Louis Zamperini describe his incredible journey. And we heard Pastor Chuck Smith speak of his journey of faith. Today, Pastor Greg Laurie meets up with another remarkable man of God.

Singer: This is the day, the day when life begins.

Greg Laurie: Hey everybody, I am really excited to be in studio with really a living legend. One of the greatest Bible teachers of all time, one that has been a blessing to me for decades. I've listened to him, his radio show, of course, his podcast, and much more. He's on 2,000 radio stations. Insight for Living is the name of his program. I'm here with Pastor Chuck Swindoll.

Chuck Swindoll: Well, it's an honor to be with you, Greg. And how long have we known each other?

Greg Laurie: Oh my goodness. Well, maybe the '80s. I mean, I've been listening to you so long. I remember when your radio show was called New Standard for Living.

Chuck Swindoll: New Standard for Living. Boy, you do go back. That was 1977. And then in '79, we changed it to Insight for Living.

Greg Laurie: But to this day, I listen to you all the time. I hate to say this, don't take it the wrong way, but I listen to you and you put me to sleep. But in the best way possible.

Chuck Swindoll: A lot of people tell me that all the time. I say, "I put people to sleep. I'm like my anesthesiologist. They go right out, man."

Greg Laurie: No, but your teaching, I believe, Chuck, and I've said this publicly, I believe that you are the greatest living preacher that I know. I mean, it's hard to say "the greatest" because we all have certain preachers we love for different reasons. But to me...

Chuck Swindoll: Well, you've only heard about three or four, so I'm one of them.

Greg Laurie: I've heard many preachers, many preachers. I love to listen, you know, though I am a preacher, I love to listen to preaching. And I love to read and a lot of the people I listen to are no longer alive. I found some guy that does an AI version of Spurgeon sermons. So it's reading the sermons of Spurgeon and they're so rich and deep.

Chuck Swindoll: Oh yeah, I'm a Spurgeon fan, man. I am too.

Greg Laurie: Well, I feel what you do so well, and it's a phrase you use, you offer theology without apology. I like that.

Chuck Swindoll: Anyway, I got to California and you'd lived there all your life. And I got there in '71. So we got underway in that north central part of Orange County, and I was there for the explosion and you were too. You were part of the explosion. And I want to go back in your life very early. Tell us sort of a quick and dirty analysis of your beginning, your home, your world, when you were lost and how you became a Christian.

Greg Laurie: Okay. Well, I was born in 1952. I didn't find out till much later that there was a man's name on my birth certificate that I found out later was not my biological father. And in fact, I was the product of a one-night stand. My mother was incredibly beautiful, and Chuck, that's why I'm so handsome.

Chuck Swindoll: Is that right? I wondered what it was. Boy, that's great.

Greg Laurie: No, she, my mother was literally a dead ringer for Marilyn Monroe and I'm not exaggerating. She really was. She was a man magnet, so she was married and divorced seven times. And she was from a Southern Baptist family, raised going to the church, but she was the prodigal child. And she went out and got married over and over again.

She had a fling in Long Beach and I was conceived and so she married a man quickly, put his name on my birth certificate, and I found that out much later. But she was also a raging alcoholic. And when I say an alcoholic, I mean she drank to excess every night where she would pass out. So in many ways, I had to grow up quickly and become almost like the adult, even though I was a child.

Chuck Swindoll: Are you the only child?

Greg Laurie: Well, she had, I have a half-brother, but he was not with us for most of my childhood. He lived with his father.

Chuck Swindoll: So you kind of raised yourself?

Greg Laurie: I, in many ways, I did. I jokingly tell people, well, I was raised by wolves. I mean, I had no one to teach me anything. So I had to fend for myself, I learned to think for myself. I had to develop survival skills and I had to look out for my mother because she would drive really drunk.

In fact, one night, I wasn't with her, she drove over the median into an oncoming lane and the steering wheel almost cut her in half. And she almost died. But she just lived this tumultuous life. But you know, you look back and you realize that God had a plan for us even before we were born. And I can see, like the Psalmist says, "In my mother's womb, you formed me."

And I can see that even the bad things that happened to me in my life were preparing me for what I needed to do, which was to see my need for Christ, which happened at the age of 17. So fast forward, I unfortunately followed in my mother's footsteps. I was drinking myself, partying, then I got into drugs. And it was even before I was a Christian, I knew drugs was a dead end and I didn't want to go that way.

It was almost like process of elimination, Chuck. Like, well, I know the answer is not in my mother's lifestyle, I know the answer isn't in the lifestyle I've chosen. What is it? And on my high school campus, the Jesus movement was happening. And all these young kids were coming to Christ. And I happened upon one of their meetings on the front lawn of my high school campus, Newport Harbor High School in Newport Beach.

And there was, they were singing worship songs and there was a...

Chuck Swindoll: Right there at the school?

Greg Laurie: Right there at school, yeah. And I found out an interesting thing. Normally they met in the science room at lunchtime for their little Bible study, but the air conditioner broke that day, so they went outside on the front lawn. I would have never gone into a classroom to see this. I came across it, I sat down at a distance, close enough to hear what they were saying, but far enough away where people wouldn't think I'm becoming a Christian because I had no intention of doing that.

But I looked at them singing, I looked at the peace they seemed to have. And then a guy got up to speak and he gave a little gospel presentation. And one statement stuck with me. He said, "Jesus said, you're either for me or against me." And I looked at the Christians and I thought, "Well, I'm not one of them. Does that mean I'm against Jesus?"

But I knew so little about Jesus, Chuck. My knowledge of Jesus was watching the Ben-Hur movie. When I realized that I could have a relationship with Jesus Christ, this preacher, his name was Lonnie Frisbee, invited people to come to Christ. I went forward and I prayed and that was the day that Christ came into my life.

Chuck Swindoll: How old were you?

Greg Laurie: 17.

Chuck Swindoll: So you didn't have a Bible? You didn't have any training whatever in the scriptures.

Greg Laurie: I don't think I'd ever opened the Bible in my life.

Chuck Swindoll: Had you ever been to a church?

Greg Laurie: I had with, I lived with my grandparents for a while when my mother was out running around and I went to church with them a few times. But it didn't click. It was just boring to me, it didn't make sense to me yet. So I was just a blank slate, which in some ways was good because I didn't have to unlearn something. I had no negative impressions of the church. I had no impressions of the church. So I was ready to hear the Word of God.

And I thought of the parallel in our lives, Chuck, because I heard you say recently that you, your brother Orville and your sister Lucy, each one was favored by your parents, but they sort of, they didn't give you that attention and your mother even said to you, you were an accident because you weren't planned.

Chuck Swindoll: I didn't know what accident meant. I was about five, four or five. I thought, I didn't just have an accident. She doesn't mean that. "Well, you're a mistake." Well, that confused me even more. When you're young, you hear that, you think, "Okay, but here I am."

Well, you know, they had a dilemma because my dad was wild about Lucy and my mother just adored my brother. He was multiply gifted in so many ways. Could have been a concert pianist. And he was playing the heavy tunes, the real concert pieces before he was 15. Wow. And a scientific mind and all that. And here I was, interested in football, interested in sports, interested in girls, interested in other things going on around me.

But none of that was interesting to my parents. They focused on, and it wasn't hidden. It was overt.

Greg Laurie: Was that true in your family?

Chuck Swindoll: Well, my mom was just too preoccupied to really pay a lot of attention to me. But you know, I think of the, remember David, Jesse brought out all of his sons before the Prophet Samuel. And Samuel said, "Don't you have any others?" He said, "Oh, I do have one more." How many of us would do that? You'd have all your sons in there if Samuel's coming for a visit.

Greg Laurie: But David later wrote, "When my mother and father forsake me, the Lord will take me up."

Chuck Swindoll: He did, He did. So I think then in both of our lives, perhaps as hard as that was, that played into what we became and what we ended up doing. You know, it did, honestly, Greg. It never really crippled me emotionally. I mean, of course I missed the closeness that many have with their mother or with their dad. But I didn't curl up in a ball and cry myself to sleep.

I was never abused or shoved aside or mistreated. But there was clearly favoritism that my brother never mowed the grass, never did what, you know, my jobs were to throw out the trash, mop the floors, clean the bathrooms, especially the toilet and the basin and the tub. And he never did that. He was busy practicing. And boy, could he play that piano. My sister and I would do the dishes and she would say to me, "I knew I shouldn't have stopped taking piano lessons because he never had to do the dishes."

Announcer: Pastor Greg Laurie and Pastor Chuck Swindoll will have more in just a moment.

Greg Laurie: You know, I've heard people describe a trip to Israel as seeing the Bible actually come to life. Hey everybody, Greg Laurie. And I've been to Israel many times and I've led a lot of tours and I have to say that's absolutely true. Listen, when you're walking on the same stones that Jesus Himself walked on, well, that's something that's enriching to your faith.

It's not just a travel experience. It actually energizes and enhances your study of the Bible. Think of it this way. It's a vacation with a purpose and we're going to be taking a tour of Israel, April 6th to 15th, 2027. You can find out more at israel.harvest.org.

Announcer: Step right into biblical history. Join Pastor Greg for a tour of the Holy Land, April 6th through 15th, 2027. Get details at israel.harvest.org. Well, we're eavesdropping today on a wonderful conversation between Pastor Greg and Pastor Chuck Swindoll. Let's listen.

Chuck Swindoll: Your story goes on.

Greg Laurie: Well yes, so I was attending Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa and there was a little Bible study up in Riverside. I was living in Orange County, that's about 45 minutes away. And it was young people and they needed someone to come and take this study over. And I went up there and began to teach it. I had been a Christian two years.

Chuck Swindoll: You'd been listening to Chuck Smith?

Greg Laurie: I'd been listening, well, Chuck got me onto some good books, you know. He said, "Greg, you need to get a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance."

Chuck Swindoll: Good for him.

Greg Laurie: And then I started building my library and at 18, I was reading Spurgeon, Martyn Lloyd-Jones, G. Campbell Morgan, Harry Ironside. So I got going with some really good books. And you know, the other thing, Chuck, because I didn't have any godly adults growing up, I wanted to hang around older people more than people my own age because I wanted to learn.

Chuck Swindoll: I found the same thing true.

Greg Laurie: Yeah, and I really encourage younger preachers today to find older preachers and older people in general who've walked with God and learn from them and listen to them. I had the privilege later in life of getting to know Billy Graham quite well. And as he was ending his crusade ministry, I was starting mine.

And he asked me to help him work on his sermons and freshen his illustrations up. So I got to spend a lot of time being with Billy in his home and on the road. And I can tell you personally, and I know you knew Billy, but I can tell you personally he was everything you hoped he would be. He was down to earth, humble, godly.

Chuck Swindoll: Honestly one of the most humble men I've ever met. People don't believe that, but it's the truth. Genuinely humble.

Greg Laurie: He really was. And I was constantly asking him questions. I thought, "I've been enrolled in the finest evangelistic university on earth with access to the greatest evangelist, I think, of all time apart from the apostles." So I took full advantage of it. And I wrote a book about it even called Billy Graham: The Man I Knew. But he didn't like to talk about himself, though.

Chuck Swindoll: I know the feeling.

Greg Laurie: You'd ask him something and he'd say, "Well, tell me about yourself." And he'd always change the subject, you know. It was a genuine humility that he had. But so I learned from godly older men and women because I was also looking for some parent figures, like a father figure, a mother figure, but someone who was godly.

Chuck Swindoll: So you went to the church and you became the teacher?

Greg Laurie: Well, I didn't know it was going to be a church. Yeah, I was teaching and then it began to grow and they started calling me pastor. Well, I hardly felt qualified to be a pastor at the age of 20. I hadn't gone to Bible school or any kind of school of theology, seminary. But I was studying every day and I have to say in sometimes I was things I knew that I believed, but I was working them out theologically and teaching them that evening sometimes.

And so it was on-the-job training. But this because and I was looking for someone to take it over and I couldn't find anyone to take it over. I was looking for someone older, more mature, no one had the time or the interest. And I had this little flock of about 100 people at that point. Then it became 200 and 300 people and I thought...

Chuck Swindoll: That's a pretty good size, man.

Greg Laurie: Yeah, so I thought, "Well, if I'm going to be their pastor, I'd better start preparing." So I just did the best I could, studying as much as I could, learning from people like you and others. And here we are to the present day.

Chuck Swindoll: Isn't it remarkable? His hand was on you all along and you didn't realize it. Yeah. And you come from that background. The last thing in your mind is you're going to become a leader of other people. You're doing your best to figure out how you're going to be led and how you're going to live your life. It's wonderful.

Greg Laurie: Well, I started out, Chuck, I wanted to be a graphic artist and specifically a cartoonist.

Chuck Swindoll: Oh did you really?

Greg Laurie: So one of the ways I coped with the crazy life I was living is I would draw cartoons and I created my own little world of characters and and that's what I aspired to be. I used to correspond with Charles M. Schulz, you know, the creator of Peanuts.

Chuck Swindoll: Oh yeah, sure.

Greg Laurie: He would very graciously write me letters and encourage me.

Chuck Swindoll: Would you really?

Greg Laurie: And one time I wrote him, I said, "Can I have one of your comic strips signed?" I was so bold, I don't know why I was. And he sent it to me and I lost it.

Chuck Swindoll: Oh no. I thought you were going to say you have it framed in the living room.

Greg Laurie: No, I have a letter he wrote me framed still, but I lost the cartoon strip, which would now be worth thousands and thousands of dollars, but not to mention the sentimental value. But you know, when I became a Christian, one of the first things I did was I drew a little comic book called Living Water and it was an evangelistic tract. And that was sort of my first taste of ministry where I was starting to develop not just as a pastor, but also as an evangelist. And you're writing now. Not like you, though. Because don't you, I heard you say once that you would write your sermons out, you didn't type them, you wrote them out. Is that correct?

Chuck Swindoll: Oh yeah.

Greg Laurie: Did you ever become a typist?

Chuck Swindoll: No, I didn't type anything. I wrote them out.

Greg Laurie: Wow, that's a great way to remember.

Chuck Swindoll: Well, thoughts disentangle themselves over the lips and through the fingertips. I learned that years ago and they really do. And I found if I could push those words through my fingers, I could make it happen. So I got a knot on this finger. I'm left-handed and on my fourth finger, I have a knot. And my publisher would always say, "Let me see that knot. Let me make sure it's nice and big." He would always talk to me about that.

Greg Laurie: Well, I think you have an extraordinary ability given to you by God, Chuck. And I'm sure it's all a part of how you were raised from your childhood to being in the Marine Corps, to you know, your harder days as you started out in ministry. But you take that which is complex and make it understandable for people.

Chuck Swindoll: I love to do that. I love to do that. I love to take the difficult and complicated and make it so simple people can say, "Boy, I get it. I get it." And they can't believe it's in the Bible when they realize how they can grasp this. I think there's one of the secrets of speaking publicly is simplifying. And you gave a good quote earlier, share that with our viewers today.

Greg Laurie: Right. Well, you were telling the story of when you went to a Billy Graham crusade. And after he finished his message, you turned to Cynthia and said, "That was so simple." And Cynthia said, "Honey, he knows what he's doing." And you were sort of a kind of a little perplexed by how simple it was.

Chuck Swindoll: We were at the Angels stadium and there were people sitting all around me and I thought, "Nobody's going to go forward." Was I wrong or what?

Greg Laurie: Yeah, so Billy, so I mentioned to you that I saw an interview that Billy Graham did with David Frost, a British interviewer. And Billy said to David Frost, "I study to be simple." And I think it's interesting because, you know, if you listen to the younger Billy Graham, he spoke rapidly and some of his earlier messages almost were like Bible studies. But as later in life, especially when he entered his final years, it got simpler and simpler.