FamilyLife Today®

Dave Wilson: I think a lot of parents feel like, I have no power. I keep trying to talk to my kid. Well, you're anxiously pursuing them trying to change them. That's eroding your power. Your power isn't waiting. Your power isn't being calm. Your power isn't being receiving and having something attractive. This : is how you have to play it. Otherwise, you just don't have any influence at all.

Ann Wilson: Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Anne Wilson.

Dave Wilson: And I'm Dave Wilson, and you can find us at familylifetoday.com. This is Family Life Today. All right, we got Jim Burns back in the studio to talk about when your adult child strays, but

Ann Wilson: Hey, but listen to the subtitle. Trading heartache for hope. And I know if you've walked through any kind of situation with an adult child that's maybe strayed or living a lifestyle or just it's not going well with your kids in your home, this is going to be a great program to listen to.

Dave Wilson: And maybe you're in a blended situation. So, we're bringing Ron Deal in, and he's going to bring some real insight

Ann Wilson: Yeah.

Dave Wilson: to this conversation. So, welcome Ron and Jim, and let's go. You talked about a one topic parent.

Jim Burns: Yeah.

Dave Wilson: What do you think of a no topic parent? Here's what I mean. There's certain areas that we have realized with our adult kids at the dinner table, whatever. Don't bring it up. We disagree. Why talk about it? And a lot of it's political or whatever. It's just like it's not worth it.

Ann Wilson: And our kids are all different theologically, too. They're all in different places.

Jim Burns: Yeah. No. No. No.

Dave Wilson: And I'm not saying you can't have conflict in that and have a rich conversation, but we realized, you know what? It doesn't end well.

Jim Burns: Oh, you're talking about Thanksgiving in the Burns household. One of our daughters who has a very different, you know, view than some of the others of us with the political thing. And I said, hey you guys, I think we need to have a no rule. It's a no politics conversation at the dinner table. And you know what? And we haven't because we're going to agree to disagree and we're going to respect each other. And in our family, we're going to have some of these these things, but it's not going to get in the way of our relationship.

Dave Wilson: That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Right.

Jim Burns: Yeah, I mean it started in ours because I would always violate it. We hadn't really talked about it yet, and we have adult Our oldest is 40 now. And I don't know. They were over This was years ago, and I just made some comment and he just looks at me like,

Dave Wilson: Yeah.

Jim Burns: What in the world? And I just realized, do not go there. Why talk about it? So, there's certain topics it's just like I love you.

Dave Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Sure. And I think they know it, too. It's like we don't need to talk about it. Let's be father and son.

Ann Wilson: No. It's better not to.

Dave Wilson: No. No. I I agree with you. And by the way, politics is one of the major things that move in estrangement.

Ann Wilson: Mhm.

Dave Wilson: As parents, I don't think it's worth us trying to convince them, but you don't understand. I mean they actually voted for this person or they voted for that person. And you kind of have to go, does that really matter?

Jim Burns: Yeah. Yeah.

Dave Wilson: Hey, so let's bring Ron Deal in. You know Ron. He directs our blended ministry here, and he's been listening to our conversation. And first thing I'd say is Ron, welcome and give us a thought or a question. I know the way you think, man, you probably got 18 questions lined up.

Jim Burns: Yep. I got three pages of paper right here with questions.

Dave Wilson: I bet you do.

Ann Wilson: And you and Jim have met. You've even had him on your podcast.

Dave Wilson: Yeah. Jim's one of my favorite people in the world. He is a tremendous teacher, speaker, writer. Jim, it's good to see you again.

Jim Burns: And great to see you. I tell him every time I say when people walk up and they want to talk to me about step parenting, I just go two words. Ron Deal.

Dave Wilson: Yep.

Ann Wilson: Me, too.

Jim Burns: I do the same thing.

Dave Wilson: Yeah. So.

Jim Burns: What do you got, Ron?

Dave Wilson: Well, you know, I'm thinking a lot of different directions. I'm thinking about families, single parent homes and blended family homes when kids are moving back and forth and there's different influences on their faith and their values in different homes. I 'm also thinking a little bit about for everybody, some of the things you guys have been talking about. I love the light in your children.

Ann Wilson: Mhm.

Dave Wilson: And yet for some people, delighting feels like permission for whatever it is that they're doing or endorsing. So, when delight equals enabling, then it's really hard to delight. You just you're back on I've got to help you change issue.

Ann Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Mhm.

Dave Wilson: And you're pursuing your child, but you're doing it in an anxious, controlling sort of way. And obviously, you've already said that doesn't work. Here's a little nuance I'd love to hear more about. When there's been conflict, back off, approach them gently, try to work towards them that Jim was just saying, move towards your children. Yes, I totally agree with that. But I think for a lot of people, the conflict or the hostility that you've had, the wars, the battles you've had over these issues in the past has created a lot of water into that bridge.

And so, when you tiptoe back toward them, the other is not open, not receptive. They're afraid, here we go again. You know, you say you don't want to argue, but dad, mom, how long is it going to be before you bring this back up again?

Ann Wilson: Mhm.

Dave Wilson: I think that's a really sticky situation. What would you suggest to people who are trying to navigate that?

Jim Burns: Well, I don't think there's easy answers in terms of wait three days, have this conversation. You know, there's no magic wand. I 'll tell you about a guy I know named Ron who took his son to a San Diego Padres game, Angels game, a Dodgers game, Giants in Oakland.

Ann Wilson: Mhm.

Jim Burns: And they fished and they actually did a little surfing and they they just had a a great week together. And he never brought it up. And he had it was his topic all the time. And because he didn't bring it up at the very end, it loosened his son up. And his son said, dad, we probably need to He brought it up. We probably need to talk about some of these feelings. And he said, well, I I didn't need to. I I just want you to know I I can be in relationship with you without doing this.

And the son said, but we need to kind of take care of this. And so, the son actually took the lead at helping them kind of take care of business and they kind of agreed on a couple things. They didn't agree on a couple things. And he said, I really appreciate your new approach.

Ann Wilson: Mhm.

Jim Burns: You know. And the the son said this. And I think we can learn from that.

Dave Wilson: So, is that sort of like building a trust?

Jim Burns: Yes. Trust has been broken. You've got to rebuild that. Jim said it earlier. Safety is the number one thing that gives you influence with your children. And at the end of the day, that's what you're hoping for. It's just a little influence. But if they don't feel safe with you,

Dave Wilson: Yeah. No.

Jim Burns: you don't have any influence.

Ann Wilson: I think, too, what helps me is and what has helped me with our kids is an apology. A friend.

Jim Burns: Yeah.

Ann Wilson: Guys, I I've probably I It's just my personality. I'm pretty intense.

Dave Wilson: Mhm. Right.

Ann Wilson: And I 'm sure when I come in these conversations, it can feel like a lot. And I 'm sorry for that. I love you guys. I believe in you. I am so intense and that's got to be off putting at times. So, let me just say I don't want to do that. I am sorry that I've hurt you.

Dave Wilson: Then you got to honor that.

Ann Wilson: Yes. As we

Dave Wilson: Can't be a week later and then She's back.

Ann Wilson: Right. Yeah. It all comes up again. Yeah. The other thing, too, and I know you guys have all done this, we all have hard conversations with our kids, all of us. And when they bring something up, there are times that I can be thinking, are you kidding me? You know, are you even serious? But then to say, not say any of that, bite my tongue, but to say, thank you. That couldn't have been easy to bring up.

Dave Wilson: Yeah. Yeah.

Ann Wilson: And I know that it probably took a lot of prayer and a lot of courage for you to bring that up and I really appreciate that you'd be honest with me. So, thanks. So, I kind of like both of those starting out with that apology, but

Dave Wilson: Yeah. Mhm.

Jim Burns: you're right, though, Ron, when you've wounded each other so immensely, you're both so gun shy. Like, oh, here it goes again.

Dave Wilson: Yes. Right.

Jim Burns: Yeah. And an option to add on to the apology

Ann Wilson: Yeah.

Dave Wilson: is to kind of take that moment to say, now, the son or daughter, I'm at a loss. I don't know how we move forward, but because I love you like crazy and I'm not going anywhere and you're important to me and your kids, so I want to be granddad and let's figure out how we do this. And then let them talk, maybe propose something. But you're what you're trying to get to is how now do we do life and what do we expect of one another? So, for example, it might be something like, hey look, would it be fair if twice a year you and I have a conversation about important eternal things?

And we can decide when that's going to be and you can tell me when you But all the other time is just being together and having fun and we don't have to worry about any of that. The reason you might try to negotiate toward something like that is you and your child both then know there's going to be times where we sort of revisit the delicate topics that are important. And yet you're creating safety in all the other moments of life. So, nobody's going to feel ambushed or nobody's worried about, oh well, he's taking me to the Padres game, but I know what's going to happen in the sixth inning.

I know You know, that just ruins the whole game, right? So, if you take away the anxiety of when we're together and just sort of compartmentalize them. Like, I'm not saying that will work with every child, but the point is you negotiate with them something they're comfortable with, you can both live with. And at least now we have a path forward.

Jim Burns: You know, that's what I call being the adult in the room. We don't have to always be right. We're in it for the long long long run. So, we don't have to get it all settled then and to negotiate something like that. And they said, I don't feel comfortable in, you know, having that conversation twice a year. I don't have I don't feel comfortable at all. Okay.

Dave Wilson: Yeah.

Jim Burns: Maybe next year. But you're still keeping it in front of them.

Dave Wilson: Yes.

Jim Burns: But that's being the adult in the room.

Dave Wilson: Jim, as you said that, Ron, what I was hearing you say, tell me if I'm wrong, be the adult in the room, but also treat your son or daughter as an adult.

Jim Burns: Yes.

Ann Wilson: Yes.

Dave Wilson: You know, like Ron, when you said that I thought, wow, that's a great move for a parent to say, you lead. What do you think? What do you think we should do? I'll tell you what, when I started dating Anne and then we got married, the first thing that shocked me was her dad treated me as an adult man from day one. He was my high school coach. And when he started doing that like, hey Dave, what's your thought on this? I'm like, what? What do you mean what's my thought? I'm a kid. And I realized right away he did that with all these young men and that was so respectful.

We felt empowered. So, when you do that as a parent, I'm not always right. Sometimes I'm wrong. What do you think? I think that says a lot to our child.

Jim Burns: No, it is. And it it really means that we need the discipline. And Paul said to Timothy, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness. We need to discipline ourselves to reinvent the relationship because for two decades,

Dave Wilson: Yeah.

Jim Burns: we didn't ask them all that much what they thought. We said, no, we're going here. We're going to do this, you know, whatever. But as an adult, by reinventing the relationship, it means that now we respect them.

Ann Wilson: Mhm.

Jim Burns: And they don't see respect if we're always giving them our opinion on stuff. They they see it as they don't believe I'm really an adult.

Ann Wilson: So, Jim, are you saying as to what Ron said that you would allow the child to navigate and initiate the two times a year? Like, I can see people especially that don't like conflict. Like, I'm just going to make sure I'm not around you those two times whenever that's coming up. So, how do you

Dave Wilson: Yeah. Thanksgiving and Christmas.

Ann Wilson: Yeah.

Dave Wilson: Ron.

Ann Wilson: And I like what you said like, and if you can't have that conversation, I still want to be with you and love you.

Jim Burns: Yeah, and you can do some of that without words.

Ann Wilson: Okay.

Jim Burns: You know, you could also in your If that was going to be a negative conversation with your kids, then why not you know, just in your own mind say, you know, I'm going to bring this up like twice.

Ann Wilson: Yes.

Jim Burns: And kind of let it go and but then we are in in charge.

Ann Wilson: But you're sandwiching all of that with love and joy and fun and relationship.

Jim Burns: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This sounds so easy. And yet there is In most relationships, there is deep tension. There have been words said by everybody that was horrible.

Dave Wilson: Yeah. Yeah.

Jim Burns: It's making a pretty major change. Then it takes time for them to kind of reboot if you wouldn't go, oh, my parents aren't going to be the people who are going to always tell me how bad I am.

Dave Wilson: Yeah.

Jim Burns: So, it it takes They need to see us do that over the long run.

Dave Wilson: Yes.

Jim Burns: And when they see that that we're even trying

Dave Wilson: Mhm.

Jim Burns: And even And if we mess up, what I loved what you said, Anne, is you said then we just apologize. You know, you can apologize for something and be right on other things. You know what? I'm sorry you felt that way. I'm so grateful you told me that. Now, there's about a the bubble in your head can say and believe me. Let me tell you about you, 1 2 3 4. And you just keep that quiet.

Dave Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. We meet a ton of couples who say family life helped them when they needed it the most. And that's what being a family life partner is all about. Helping others find that same encouragement and tools that you found right here.

Ann Wilson: And we'd love for you to join us. So, click the donate button at familylifetoday.com and become a partner today.

Dave Wilson: Can I give you guys my favorite metaphor for all that I think just wraps up this whole conversation? And I hope our viewer or listener can just sort of grab this and let this sink into your heart. Let's have a little fun. I'm going to invite the three of you. I'm going to give you a task. I want you this afternoon to go to a city park somewhere and find some trees and some squirrels and I want you to make friends with a squirrel. That's your goal. Befriend a squirrel. Now, tell me, how will you not go about befriending a squirrel?

Ann Wilson: I wouldn't yell.

Dave Wilson: Thank you. Dave, what would you not do?

Jim Burns: I'd be very cautious. I would not move quickly, just tenderly, softly.

Ann Wilson: Approach.

Jim Burns: Approach.

Dave Wilson: Yeah. Squirrels are skittish and they are just super afraid. And you may not understand why squirrels are skittish. I mean when you're driving down the road and they run out and look at you and go back and forth, you're like, what are you doing? Like, we don't understand squirrels. But your adult child is a squirrel. For whatever reason, whatever the backstory is, they are super afraid of what you're coming with. And the irony is we think pursuing, throwing criticisms, rocks, somehow trapping them

Ann Wilson: Yeah. Mhm.

Dave Wilson: is somehow advantageous to changing their heart. The the whole political social media world to me is crazy trying to influence other people when all we're doing is trying to trap them in something and go hahaha. That doesn't invite squirrels to move towards you. That just makes them run up the tree faster. This is where you find yourself as a parent with a child who has strayed. And you have to say, I can't do that anymore. All right, so let's turn it over. What would you do if you're trying to befriend? And remember, not trap, be friend a squirrel.

Ann Wilson: Dave and I got an opportunity to be in London this summer. Dave did a wedding over in France. Our guide, this English gentleman, I didn't realize it at first, but this squirrel kept coming to his feet. What's this squirrel doing? And he's right beside the guy.

Jim Burns: Hyde Park.

Ann Wilson: And I looked and this guide had a little peanut in his hand.

Dave Wilson: Uh-huh. Yeah.

Ann Wilson: He would just bend down very slowly and the the squirrel ate out of his hand.

Dave Wilson: Amazing.

Ann Wilson: Amazing.

Dave Wilson: So, what's he doing? He's sitting still.

Ann Wilson: Yeah. Mhm.

Dave Wilson: He's got something attractive and he's not doing anything harsh. This is amazing to you that a squirrel would move toward this guy. Like, how long did he have to sit quietly and calmly and be a stable force that doesn't bring any threat? I mean, depending on the skittishness of the squirrel, you may have to sit a really long time in the park. That's what you have to do. And that is your power. I think a lot of parents feel like, I have no power. I keep trying to talk to my kid. Well, you're anxiously pursuing them trying to change them.

That's eroding your power. Your power isn't waiting. Your power isn't being calm. Your power isn't being receiving and having something attractive. If you're not attractive, don't expect the squirrel to care about what you value. So, you you get the metaphor, right? It's a hard, difficult road when this is where you find yourself. And yet this is how you have to play it. Otherwise, you just don't have any influence at all.

Jim Burns: In some ways and you know, we know this as communicators, people don't receive the message unless they like the messenger.

Dave Wilson: Mhm.

Jim Burns: It's the same thing. If they don't like you or they don't feel like you like them, it's going to be a hard road. You got to be likable.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, and you know, we can extend this little metaphor into complex family situations. So, I'm thinking about a a step parent or a foster parent who You know, this child is relatively new to your world and your life. And you're running into the park going, hey, I got great stuff. Come here. Where where are you going? You know, and you don't realize it, but you're chasing the squirrel with your eagerness, with your desire. And for whatever reason, is that, too, is threatening to the squirrel. Or maybe after going through a divorce, you kind of grew some distance between you and your children.

Yeah, they come for visitation twice a month, whatever, but you haven't really been super engaged in their life, but now you're seeing some things in their life and you want to influence that. So, you begin to try to reengage. Well, to them, you're still a little threatening. You're an unknown force in their world. Like, you again have to go to the park near them as close as you can be and wait and just hang out and don't quit. It can be so discouraging when you're not getting immediate results from the squirrel. But this is what you do.

This is your power. Is to sit and wait and be that attractive presence that gives them something to move toward.

Ann Wilson: Well, Ron and Jim, I'm curious because I love that, but I 'm thinking of a step parent, a new husband that walks into the situation. They're newly married. And his wife has a son that has strayed and is hurting her. She's crying every night about this child that has strayed. And he's thinking, this child is being disrespectful, dishonoring. It's hurting my wife. And so, he's thinking, I need to protect her.

Dave Wilson: Yeah.

Ann Wilson: How do you address that situation? Because what he's feeling is probably legitimate. Like, she is being hurt. Maybe the child is being horrible to her. But that's a hard place to tread.

Dave Wilson: It is. And add to it if he has his own children and this stepchild is influencing his biological children, you know, right there in the home, there's a negative influence towards their faith formation. Right? It just adds, you know, a insult to the injury. So, we would go back to, all right, he and his wife got to get together. They got to have huddle and talk and try to figure out how they're going to respond within their home. And it's delicate because mom's going to say, you don't know my kid the way I know my kid.

And you're coming in pretty harsh, buddy, you know, or a pretty aggressive. And that's not going to play well. And so, then the stepdad's going, yeah, but you're going soft. And that's just letting him get away with it. And that, I guarantee you, that happens a lot.

Jim Burns: Oh yeah.

Dave Wilson: And so, it is a dialogue to figure out how we are going to respond. We're going to try to encourage biological mom because she has the most influence. This comes down to influence. It always does. Who has the most influence? So, she's going to because she has a relationship with her son. The stepdad doesn't at that point in time. And so, we're going to encourage mom to put on some strength and maybe have to learn to step in in some ways that she is not just to say, I'm sorry, you're not going to treat me that way in my home.

I love you, son, but we're not going to do that. You know, she's going to have to maybe find some new skills. Her husband is supporting her and she's trying to do that, grow into that space. It's going to be awkward and challenging and she's not going to get it right. They're going to back up and they're going to try again. Like, that's going to be that journey for the most part, I would think. But at the end of the day, that's what they're looking for is that delicate balance to move toward the son, remain delight in him when they can, how they can, and at the same time draw some lines and say, nope, that's not happening either.

But that doesn't mean you can't be here. We don't love you and we don't receive you. That's the hope. The hard super hard is when that kid says, well, I've got dad's house to go to and so I'm just signora. And they pull on that string of ultimate leverage with another household that they can run to. And let me just say in our at Family Life Blended, we deal with this a lot and it is a very very difficult situation and when kids do that, they do have some power because of that ability to go to the other home who won't draw any lines, won't set up any boundaries and has no expectations.

And that is a power move that it it is a grieving moment for mom and stepdad. And yet, even then, back to our metaphor, they're going to try to figure out ways to be in the park with that boy, however, whenever, at his football game, whatever he's interested, however they can be as close to him as they can be because that's the only way you have any influence.

Jim Burns: Yeah. I'm thinking of two words, protect and honor. I think that the husband has to protect his wife and honor her wishes. I mean, I can't say enough about when he just said the husband should help the wife because she's the biological mom to this. So, the husband has to help the wife gain the tools or whatever it needs. And you will have to build boundaries. And if you build boundaries, boundaries aren't building walls. Boundaries are helping you build the relationship right.

Ann Wilson: Oh, that's good. I haven't heard that before.

Jim Burns: And so, so when you build a boundary, it 's not a fence. It's not a wall. The boundary is actually a vehicle. It's more like a bridge to what's the bridge. So, it is delicate. And again, it 's not always easy, but I think way too often in a blended family. And I I think way too often the non biological parent tries to take over because they're fed up with it or whatever.

Ann Wilson: And protect.

Jim Burns: Yeah, right. What they really want to do is protect and honor, but honor the relationship that the mom has with that child.

Ann Wilson: That's good.

Jim Burns: And again, you got to be in it for the long haul.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, if I could tag on with boundaries just for a second, a lot of people are saying boundaries are they're setting boundaries and really what they're trying to do is change somebody else. When a child says, I'm cutting you off, what they're really saying is until mom, dad, you guys start doing what I want you to do,

Ann Wilson: Right.

Dave Wilson: I'm going to remove myself from your presence. That's not what boundaries are for. Boundaries are me saying what I'm going to do with what is mine. I'm not telling you what to do with what is yours. I'm just telling you what I'm going to do with mine. And that's so important in these situations because you can imagine this biological mom who the child is disrespecting her. So, what is the boundary she's going to set? It's to say, I'm sorry, you may not talk to me that way. She's not trying to demand of her child that he treat her exactly the way she wants.

That's too much for that little moment with that particular child. For her to say, no, you may not talk to me that way. And so, the answer is no to what you're just demanding. Um and if you want to have a conversation about going to the party, we can have a conversation, but but you're not going to treat me that way and and get what you want. So, all she's saying is, yeah, I'm in charge of me and what is mine to do with. And that's the power that you have in these. It's not a lot of power.

It doesn't feel like a lot because you're not changing them. This is where we as parents have to make that delineation between what's ours and what's theirs to figure out.

Jim Burns: I'll tell you what, all I'm thinking about my my head right now are squirrels. Squirrels. Squirrel. Squirrel. Actually, Ron's metaphor visual is really good.

Ann Wilson: Really good. And I think that we can all get it that in our heads, especially with the holidays coming up, like don't scare away the squirrel.

Dave Wilson: That's your son or your daughter. Again, the book is called When Your Adult Child Strays by Jim Burns. You can get it familylifetoday.com. Just click on the link in the show notes. And guess what? We have another day with Ron and Jim to talk about this topic. So, we'll see you tomorrow.

Ann Wilson: If you need more on this or any kind of parenting help, you can get more at familylifetoday.com/parentinghelp. It's going to be a benefit to you because we all need some help.

Dave Wilson: Family Life Today is a donor supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry, celebrating 50 years of helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.