FamilyLife Today®

Dave Wilson: The conversation we had yesterday had me thinking about my life. When I first got involved in church in a faith community in college, joining that community of people who were Christians on a college campus was one of the first times I felt like I didn't fit.

I don't feel what they're feeling; they're singing these songs. It was one of the first times in my life I was like, "I don't fit here."

Ann Wilson: And then think about this: think about when you gave your life to Jesus, how you went forward. Share that part.

Dave Wilson: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Dave Wilson.

Ann Wilson: And I'm Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.

Dave Wilson: This is FamilyLife Today. Brant Hansen's back with us. Radio host, author of the book we're talking about today, *Blessed Are the Misfits*. Hey, let me ask you: do you say "blessed" or "blessed"?

Brant Hansen: I say "blessed," but I don't know if there's a best way.

Dave Wilson: Where you wrote it, you got to know what's the best way.

Brant Hansen: I just took it from the Bible. I don't know, man.

Dave Wilson: I mean, it's a book about not fitting and we talked yesterday—if you missed yesterday, go listen to that, because it was such a great discussion about how often when you don't feel what other people are feeling, you feel like you're less spiritual.

Ann Wilson: Or experiencing what they're experiencing.

Dave Wilson: So Brant, you said you're a misfit from the word go. Your background is much different than mine. Tell our listeners a little bit: you were not the quarterback, you were this different—

Brant Hansen: I did go out for football my senior year. I was a little guy and I was president of library club.

Dave Wilson: And you played the flute.

Brant Hansen: I played the flute. So all the markers of athleticism were there. And then I grew to 5'10" by my senior year. I was 5'1" and suddenly grew to 5'10" for my senior year. My mom said, "You can play if you want." So I went out for the team. I had to quit because—and I'm not making this up—they didn't have a helmet big enough for my head.

Ann Wilson: Come on! No.

Brant Hansen: I'm not making this up. I went to a very small town. We were very football-oriented town and school, but I had a size eight head or whatever.

Ann Wilson: Your head does not look big.

Brant Hansen: Thanks. It's shrunk a little over the years. But yeah, so I didn't really become a star athlete. That's the extent of my athletic career, actually.

Dave Wilson: Again, I was fortunate to have those gifts. But when I got to the Christian community, I felt like I didn't fit. In fact, the first time there, I sort of thought, "I don't know if I fit here." And Ann was mentioning when I came to Christ, it was at a concert that my brother told me to go to. Long story, but I go forward. It was one of those, "Hey, if you want to receive Christ today, come forward," and I'm like, "I'm doing this."

I'm the only one, and there's hundreds of maybe thousands of people there. I walk forward, I literally got on my knees at the front of this stage.

Ann Wilson: And you didn't feel anything.

Dave Wilson: No. Here's what happened. So these three ladies come down beside me and get on their knees. They're older ladies, I was 19 or 20 years old, and they're weeping. They're weeping and they're emotional. There's two on one side and one on the other, and I looked at them and I'm like, "Huh."

So this guy came up. They had a counselor come up to you and say, "Hey, you got any questions? I'm here to help you understand what just happened." I'll never forget, Brant, I look at him and I go, "Yeah, it didn't take." He goes, "What?" I go, "It didn't work." He goes, "What do you mean it didn't work?"

I go, "Well, those ladies beside me, they were weeping and crying and something was happening with them. I don't feel anything. I just decided I want to give my life to Jesus and I feel nothing." And this guy looks at me and he goes, "It has nothing to do with what you feel. It's based on truth. Let's walk through it."

He walked me through the gospel and I walked out of there like, "Okay, I'm a follower of Christ." But day one, I felt like that's real and I don't fit that.

Brant Hansen: And here you are. So if somebody had told you, "Something's wrong with you, you need to open yourself up to God for real," that would have been so discouraging.

Dave Wilson: I probably would have walked away.

Brant Hansen: A lot of people do.

Ann Wilson: Do you think you feel like God can't use you if you're not like other people?

Brant Hansen: You just feel like you must be a sinner unlike they are. Honestly, everybody's caught up in stuff, especially younger men, and you're always battling. But if you're not feeling something, I guess I'm worse than everybody, or maybe God doesn't exist. Maybe this whole thing's fake.

Because when you're an analytical person, you go to church and some people just don't ask you questions. That's fine. But I'm there—I'm a musician too, Dave, you know this. I can make people throw their hands up in the air singing "Don't Stop Believin'," right? Let's do it: "Don't stop believin'."

That's a secular song, by the way. But that's what I mean. You can go to a secular concert and when they hit a certain chorus or they modulate and then the drums drop out and everybody's singing and then back in, everybody gets goosebumps. The lyrics were about Tommy used to work on the docks. We're still having this reaction.

But if it's in a Christian context, I'm thinking this as an analytical person: what's really happening here? Because I can manipulate people with music, their emotions. Is God really present, or is this whole thing fake? Now, that's the struggle that a lot of people have. And if they're told—

Ann Wilson: And if you said that, people would be like, "Wait, don't you feel God's presence here? Because I do. I feel God's presence in those situations."

Brant Hansen: Then I'm like, "Well then, I guess I've blown it." It's so freeing to know some people will have an emotional reaction to stuff, some people won't. It doesn't change the reality of God's presence, doesn't change His goodness, doesn't change where this is all ending, doesn't change the reality of goodness and evil in the world. All of that is still true whether I feel it or not.

There's so much in the Bible that's basically—and I've mentioned David again—but he's saying, "Why are you so downcast, O my soul?" He's talking to his own feelings and reminding himself of what's actually true. So yeah, you come forward, you're not feeling it; still true, still here.

Dave Wilson: Well, you said this yesterday and it's in your book: if you study scripture looking for emotions and feelings, you're not going to find it. I mean, it's in there, but it isn't the indicator that you're a follower.

Brant Hansen: No, spirituality is faithfulness. It's loyalty to God. Surrender. You can do that with emotions, you can do it without. A lot of men, not entirely, some women too, but a lot of men feel like church doesn't make any sense to them or they're just quiet about it, watching everybody else sing because they're not feeling it and then thinking something must be wrong with me.

A lot of spouses think something must be wrong with my spouse because he's not emoting or she's not emoting like I do. So maybe they just don't know God like I do. I think it's really unfortunate. It's very disempowering.

The other thing is your expectations. Maybe when you're young and you have these emotional reactions when you first become a believer and then that changes, you think, "Okay, where did God go?" But we're not in heaven yet. The kingdom is here, but it's not in its fullness yet. So that's one thing I talk about in the book: what should we reasonably expect from this relationship right now? Total bliss? We're not there yet.

Back in Jesus' time, when people got engaged, the dad would let his son go over to this other family and propose. The son would take gifts over and he would take wine and he would go to this house and he would actually give gifts to the family, give gifts to the prospective bride, and propose this covenant of marriage.

If she accepted, he would pour wine into a glass and if she accepted, she signified that by drinking out of the glass. You can research this with Jewish customs; this is just what you did. And then you had a period of betrothal where you weren't together. You were "together yet apart" is what it's called. So you're legally bound to this person.

Ann Wilson: This is Joseph and Mary.

Brant Hansen: Yes, they're in that period of betrothal. So this is very common. You would leave gifts to remember as a prospective groom. Now you're engaged, you've got this betrothal, you leave gifts with the family and with her to remember you while you go back to your dad's house and you have to build a room.

When that room is finished on the house, that's going to be the bridal suite. When that room is finished, your dad will say, "Now it's done." It's not up to you. Your dad will sign off on it so you can go get your bride now.

Meantime, what is she feeling in all this? Months go by, sometimes 18 months or something. She's not seeing him. I spend a couple days away from my wife and we're out of sync. You've just met this person, you don't know them that well; 18 months go by. You've got your friends preparing you, making bridal stuff, your dress, getting you all ready for this big day, but you don't know when it's coming. You just know it is.

Ann Wilson: And I'm thinking about the feelings. They barely know each other. Do they love each other, feeling-wise?

Brant Hansen: I would imagine it comes and goes, doesn't it? Probably at first it's really exciting and then like, "Wait, what? What's he really like again?" So you've got your friends surrounding you and you're planning for this hopeful future you're excited about.

Well, then you hear a trumpet sound, and that trumpet is a shofar horn, and that signifies that the wedding is on. He's coming now. That's what they would do. So the wedding party would all leave from that one house, go across town.

If you know much—now some people aren't as familiar with this story—but we're talking about our relationship to God here. Jesus seals the deal at the Last Supper. He's even saying, "Drink from this cup." They would know what He's talking about. "I won't drink until I'm with you on that day." It's going to be a wedding feast.

He even leaves gifts with them, but He says, "I don't give like the world gives. I'm going to give you My peace. So you'll have this peace. You're going to have this comforting Spirit that'll be with you, and I'm coming back. And there's going to be a trumpet sound and I'm going to come get you. But I don't know when; My Dad does. And when this happens, I want you to know that in My Father's house, there are many rooms. So all you guys, I'm coming back for you all."

That's where we are in our lives, though. So to expect that you're going to be in total bliss—we're that bride together yet apart. We've made that commitment, we've sealed the covenant, and He is faithful; He's coming back. Whether you have emotional ups and downs, okay, maybe you have some mountain moments, maybe long valleys, long dark nights of the soul, maybe so, but we're in this weird period and I think we should expect that.

We just keep showing up faithfully and keep talking to Him in this weird period. That sounds like what our lives are actually like. So setting people up for this idealized bliss is not going to happen right now. You'll get hints of it, but we're not there yet. It's going to be good; it's going to be a big feast, a big party.

Ann Wilson: I don't know if this is true for you, but it's super easy for us to let our schedules squeeze in everything except for the person I married.

Dave Wilson: Work, kids, everything competing for our attention, and before you know it, your marriage has slipped into autopilot. You don't always notice you're drifting apart until it's already happened.

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Ann Wilson: I look at both of you, Dave and Brant. You both tend to be more skeptical. You may not feel God's love all the time or have the emotions that maybe some people do in church as they're worshipping or experiencing God. And yet I look at the faithfulness of both of you. You're both talking about Jesus all day long, basically, to people, drawing them to the King of Kings.

To me, without the emotion, I have more respect for you. It's in your head, but man, to follow that every day out of your faithfulness, the scriptures, Jesus, what He has done, that's pretty remarkable.

Brant Hansen: Thank you. You know what it is? This is love. Because if I get a reward for something, then it's about me if I'm doing it for the reward. But if you don't get a reward and you do it anyway, why would you do that?

In a marriage, in a friendship, we're supposed to care for people who are the least of these who can't turn around and invite us to their own banquet. Why would you invite someone where they don't give you anything? Because you love God. There's no reward; why would you do it? Just for love.

People who have the emotional closeness—they feel it like a warm blanket, God's there, He's whispering into their ear—I think it's wonderful. For the rest of us, we shouldn't be discouraged.

Dave Wilson: Brant, do you get emotional in any parts of your life?

Brant Hansen: Yeah. When I talk about my kids growing up, just the passage of time or whatever, that kills me. I don't even want to talk about it now. And then working with CURE, these hospitals where these kids get surgeries and you see the change and you see God's heart for them.

I mean, anybody who goes there, it's like an embassy of the kingdom of God. When you see the kingdom—little glimpses of it, little advanced trailers of heaven as I call it—I think that's what healing is. We get goosebumps. We see the before and after, we see what's happening in a mom who's crying tears of joy; that makes me emotional.

Being in the OR and watching a little girl asleep on a table and her whole life is being changed and she's being prayed over. Why did you ask that question?

Dave Wilson: Well, I just wanted to—Ann knows I cry at every movie.

Brant Hansen: Interesting.

Dave Wilson: It doesn't matter if it's tender, sad, it could be hilarious.

Brant Hansen: *Rambo*, *Terminator*?

Dave Wilson: Somewhere in *Rambo*, I will cry. Is it true?

Ann Wilson: It's so true.

Dave Wilson: I was with a men's group one time and we were in a car and they're like, "Let's put on *Meet the Parents* and see if Dave cries." And sure enough, they're like, "You're crying right now? How in the world?"

And it's like something will hit me. Usually it's the gospel, and not blatantly, but some element that reminds me of the love of God for somebody that's far from Him or somebody's loving somebody that doesn't deserve it.

That's where I get sparked. And in church, when I cry, is when there's a testimony. It isn't often during worship; it could be, but usually when somebody's telling a life-changing story how God met them, I'm like, "Look at me, I'm tearing up right now." That's emotional for me, and I'm a very factual guy. And that's not always factual, but I'm watching the truth of the word in real life and there's something that hits my soul there.

Brant Hansen: I've got a weird theory. Science doesn't really know why we get goosebumps. They don't really, and I don't either, honestly. But it's very common that we get goosebumps to the same things. To me, it's when we have this glimpse of heaven. That's when it does.

People don't know it, and non-believers get the goosebumps too. They don't know why. Why at the Olympics, when all these nations are gathered together as one and at peace and we see people marching ceremonially, we get goosebumps from that. Why?

You see a video of somebody being reunited: a soldier dad surprises his little daughter in the classroom out of nowhere. *The Voice* or *American Idol*, someone will sing and they'll say, "Oh, I have goosebumps."

There's a French word called *frisson* for it, but they're trying to figure out why. It's this sudden, surprising thing that happens, but it's not chaos. It's something surprising that makes sense. So like this surprise reunion, why does that give us goosebumps? An emotional reunion that you didn't see coming and yet yes, it had to happen.

It's a glimpse ahead. Somebody gets their hearing for the first time, you see those videos, they can hear—we're all getting goosebumps. Why? Why when someone is healed? The deaf can hear. You don't have to be a believer. I think it's because we're nostalgic for this place we've never been, but we know that's where we're from.

Ann Wilson: That's good. We're longing for it.

Brant Hansen: We're made for it.

Right. Music is the same thing if you chart music. You know this as a musician. It's creation of a theme, the theme is taken down, and then restored. And then sometimes restored and it modulates up a key or something. It's a surprise, but that's what gives people goosebumps and they throw their hands up. They don't even know why, but it's again this creation, fall, redemption hint that we know deeply is true. Even in instrumental music, it's there.

Dave Wilson: He'll do it.

Brant Hansen: No, I'm not going to do it, but when you said that I was thinking—the first time I heard this was during COVID. You'll probably remember this because it bombed all around the internet and then in churches. We were all at home and nobody could go to church and then Kari Jobe releases this song.

"The Lord bless you and keep you." It's Numbers. "Make His face shine upon you and be gracious to you. The Lord turn His face toward you and give you peace." Here's where I cried. She goes, "And may His favor be upon you and a thousand generations and your family and your children and their children and their children." The first time I heard that line, I'm weeping.

Dave Wilson: Because I come from a broken home, two alcoholic parents. I'm trying to be a dad who honors Christ with Ann and God called us when we got married, "I'm going to use you to change the Wilson name from adultery and alcohol to a godly legacy."

We haven't done that perfectly, but when she sang, "And your family and your children and their children," I'm just weeping. And it was an emotional moment because it was based on truth.

Brant Hansen: That song moves me every time. It honestly does, and I think it's part of that: thinking about God's goodness from generation to generation, reminding me of His faithfulness, which is such a balm if you are a skeptical person. He's still faithful to me.

You're aware of your own sin and brokenness and He's so good. Also it shifts to this "Ah". I was going to do that! We could do it; we could sing the harmony. That's an interesting progression. That kind of surprises you the first time you hear it too, but it makes sense.

And we're all saying, "So be it." Amen. You feel we're all saying that. So there's a lot of goosebumps going on and I think—I hate to deconstruct everything or take the magic out of it, but it's not; it doesn't. I just want us to know why we feel this way and I honestly think that's it.

It's this we recognize certain elements of heaven. We can't imagine it fully. There's colors we haven't seen yet, songs we can't imagine, notes that we haven't hit, but we're going to. And maybe we even speak in music.

Dave Wilson: You speak in English, right? You speak in Spanish? You speak in Latin? Maybe we speak in music; we all can. I'm so glad and I feel blessed that we can talk about doubt, struggle, feeling like a misfit on this program.

Ann Wilson: Me too. Honestly, it's a Christian talk show that you think you can't express doubt and struggle that's real. We've got to sort of live up here rather than, "Nah, this is where a lot of us struggle." I'm just glad we get to do that and I want to thank our partners for supporting this ministry to allow us to do this kind of thing.

Brant Hansen: This is unique what you both do. What you do is so refreshing because the culture is so desperate for this. Who else is talking about hope like that? Like what we were just talking about, where people who struggle—anybody who's listening is like, "That's me too," and yet God is good.

In this culture, to have some sort of a peace, a non-anxious reminder that's not frenetic, it's not banging against the wall somehow and making you mad, actually just telling you again what the big picture is—this is worth keeping. I'm very glad that you shape it this way, both of you, and that we've got this thing going. So whoever is listening, if you are supporting this, I personally thank you for being part of it.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, we thank you, Brant, for driving up here. I literally could say any week you want to come, you just come. I don't care if you read a book or not, we're going to talk with you about things.

And I will say this: this is why we get to do what we do, because people like you say, "I'm in." And sometimes that's emotional, sometimes that's not emotional at all; it's just the right thing to do because I believe in it and I'm going to write a check or make a donation digitally and change the world and change a legacy.

Brant Hansen: I'm glad you said that about the emotion thing because I have found—and I know this is generally true from what I've read—a lot of times we do wait for that emotional moment and then I'll give, then I'll be generous. But don't do that, just do it.

What's weird is your emotions will follow your actions, just like marriage. Yes. So it's the same thing with generosity. Instead of waiting for this lightning strike, just know, "No, I just do it because it's the right thing," and then watch your heart follow that.

You can actually train your heart. So maybe it's a priority for you. I want people to know about hope, so instead of waiting for that emotion—no, I believe in this. This is what people need to hear, I need to hear, and then maybe just act on that and then see if your heart doesn't just follow along.

Ann Wilson: This is FamilyLife Today. You've been listening to Brant Hansen, who we love. I know that you probably love him too.

Dave Wilson: And this book, man, it is so practical. It's called *Blessed Are the Misfits: Great News for Believers Who Are Introverts, Spiritual Strugglers, or Just Feel Like They're Missing Something*.

Ann Wilson: What a great title. And you can get your copy by clicking the link in the show notes at FamilyLifeToday.com. Before we're done today, let me just say this: at FamilyLife, we really believe strong families can change the world. And when you become a FamilyLife partner, you help make that happen.

And I don't know if you realize it, but your monthly gift helps us equip marriages and families with biblical tools that they can count on.

Dave Wilson: Now, that's a pretty big deal, and we also want to send you exclusive updates, behind-the-scenes access, and an invitation to our private partner community, which is pretty cool. So join us and let's reach families and marriages together.

Ann Wilson: And you can go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click the donate button to join today.

Dave Wilson: FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife, a Cru Ministry. 50 years of helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.