FamilyLife Today®

Jonathan Ober: Are there things that you would do in these VR spaces or in these gaming spaces that you would not do in front of Mom and Dad or Grandma and Grandpa? No. Okay, good. Let's keep that. Being a light there and sharing Jesus in whatever they do.

Ann Wilson: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.

Dave Wilson: And I'm Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today. Honey, we're talking about your favorite topic today.

Ann Wilson: Yes, we are.

Dave Wilson: What is it?

Ann Wilson: Gaming.

Dave Wilson: I don't know if it's gaming or the meta-universe. We've got Jonathan Ober, who goes by Ober.

Jonathan Ober: Yes.

Dave Wilson: And I'm going to ask you about Jonathan, and I've got to try this: Frank Kulgowski. Was it perfect? I want to see if Ann can say it.

Ann Wilson: Kulgowski.

Frank Kulgowski: That's it.

Dave Wilson: You've got the VR, what do you call that thing over there?

Jonathan Ober: This is a virtual reality VR headset.

Dave Wilson: What in the world are you guys doing in this universe? And how do you know each other?

Jonathan Ober: We're going into different worlds where we're meeting other people. When I say worlds, it could be something like an internet cafe, a Japanese Shinto temple-type place. We are visiting a virtual world that someone has created. Maybe it looks like a real place, maybe it looks like something fantastical that they've made up.

There could be a giant whale swimming in the sky and beautiful ocean water just kind of lapping up against the shore. Any kind of thing you could think of, there might be a world out there where you could go and visit.

Dave Wilson: Can you just knock on the door and walk in? How do you get in?

Jonathan Ober: There are these things called portals, and you can throw a portal out and bring a friend with you. You just walk through. Think of it as just like a giant oval that has a picture of that world and you're there in a matter of seconds.

Ann Wilson: People are thinking right now, "Wait, are we listening to FamilyLife Today?" Yes, you are. And this is a place where a lot of our kids, our young adults, a lot of us are going to these places.

Dave Wilson: What happens when you get there? What do you do?

Jonathan Ober: A lot of what we're trying to do is meet people where they are. We approach them and sometimes we just say hi. "How are you doing today?" That can turn into a conversation. It's not a lot different than if you walked into a park and they're sitting there and you just were a nice guy and you said, "Hey, how are you doing?" and you see if they want to talk.

Ann Wilson: Wait, is this different from playing video games online, which everybody's doing?

Jonathan Ober: Yes, we use VR Chat. It is an application typically on a virtual reality headset, though you can go on your phone. It does have an element of a phone app and a computer PC app. You're going on there essentially to meet other people or maybe just hang out in a virtual space.

We say, "How are you doing today?" Sometimes that can be retorted, like someone might curse at you, unfortunately. But a lot of what we're finding is that there are people that are just lost in their own world and maybe the only place that they find freedom or they find connection is in the virtual space.

When we say, "How are you doing?" sometimes that person responds with, "I'm doing all right." I personally like to say, "What do you mean by all right? What's going on that you're only all right?" Because if you're not good or you're not great, something's going on. That then can steamroll into a conversation of maybe their life with their family is not great, and they're in or in a relationship that's broken, a girlfriend or boyfriend.

I recall an experience where I met a person. They go by the name of Huska. I went up to them and I just said, "How are you doing?" He was like, "I'm doing okay." I said, "Tell me a little bit about that." He was sharing a little bit and in that conversation, he asked me what was I doing in VR Chat.

I said, "I come in here with a group of friends over my lunch break." He was like, "How do you get enough time for your lunch break?" I said, "I work for this organization called FamilyLife, and a part of that, we have this group that go into VR Chat to share the gospel and meet people where they're at and just point them to Jesus."

He said, "I am a new Christian. I've been struggling to find a church." This person is from Australia. Again, VR Chat, you're meeting people from all over the world. He starts sharing then about how his parents don't believe in Jesus, they don't take him to church, they don't want anything to do with it. He was looking for community.

That perked up in me the community that we have. We have a Discord group, which is an application where people can come on and chat and be a part of communities. I said, "We have this gaming place where people like you, who may be new Christians or have been Christians for a while, can come and meet others, game together, build community, foster friendships, and get resources on how they can then share the gospel with others."

Within that hour that I talked to Huska, he was like, "I know that God brought you into this space today to talk to me, to encourage me, and then to invite me in." Within probably six hours or so, he was in our Discord and communicating with other people, and now he's a part of our community.

Ann Wilson: So Frank, how did you guys fall into this? You've known each other for a while. It's not like you're these teenage boys. You guys are married with families. Tell us about that part.

Frank Kulgowski: I have been interested in how God is using technology in the church spaces and in Crew, FamilyLife, and how he's building his kingdom. It was 2022 in the summer that I heard about a particular webinar. I was listening and doing some work and different people got on and shared a little bit from this angle: technology in church.

But then one guy got on, his name is Pastor Brock, and he just got on there and said, "I go into virtual reality. I share my faith. You've got to come." It was a call, it was an invitation. He's saying, "Please, all you who are listening, come with me." I thought, "I want to go."

I had never been in VR or anything and I knew some video games and we were trying to do some video game stuff, but virtual reality, I didn't have experience with that. I talked to my wife and said, "Beth, I heard this thing. What would you think if we got a headset?" She said, "Okay."

So I didn't even have a headset or anything. I am captivated by this Pastor Brock's invitation, "Come with me to share the gospel and minister to people." My kids were 14, 16, and 18 at that time.

Ann Wilson: Were they like, "Do we have the coolest dad in the world?" Did they think that?

Frank Kulgowski: Actually, I asked my son who was 18 and he's really into tech and I said, "John, can you help me set this up?" So I went to Best Buy, I got one, I came home. "Can you help me with this?" He said, "Sure." He fiddles with it. So I reached out to this Pastor Brock and asked some more. I want to do this.

So I went into the platform or the program. VR Chat is one; there's a number of them out there, but this one in particular, there's a lot of chatting going on. People are engaging one another. I just jumped in. I'm in my living room and my wife, Beth, is there and one of my daughters and it's nighttime and I put it on and I'm like, "Okay, I'm going to do this."

I get in there, I'm kind of looking around. I'm physically in my living room with the headset and I'm looking around and all of a sudden I saw this creature, like this ball and then these little eyes on top. Then a voice came and it was a really young kid. He says, "I'm not scary, I'm just young." And then he just scurried off.

Dave Wilson: So you design your own little avatar?

Frank Kulgowski: You can make your own avatar. This particular avatar just caught me off guard and I just kind of turned over and it was right next to me. I started exploring, I started talking to some friends and we started going and that's how I got into virtual reality.

There's a number of platforms or applications out there, but this particular one that Ober and I go to is primarily set up for conversation and talking. It's VR Chat. Now there are games, people play pool and hide and seek and there's a bunch of games, but a lot of worlds are just set up to have conversation.

Dave Wilson: Is it generally light and up or is there darkness?

Ann Wilson: Parents are like, "This sounds dangerous." Immediately when we said "little kid," a parent goes, "Oh, this is where trafficking and bad things happen." I'm sure there's some of that. The other side is thinking about guys like you going in there with the light of Jesus. Is it both?

Jonathan Ober: I would say it's both. There are definitely worlds that are like you're going to go to a bar or a nightclub or worse. Within those, because even though there's an age restriction of like you need to be 13 and up, nobody follows that. There are little kids in there.

There are other spaces where you might go in and you can say whatever you want. Nobody's policing the language. As users, once we're in there, if somebody is specifically having some racism or some very coarse language, you can click on them and you can mute them so that you just don't have to hear it. I've done that. I think you've probably done that, too.

You can even go a step further and then just hide them from view like they don't even exist. They could be right in front of you and they disappear. I have two daughters and both of them have been in VR Chat. I know one of my daughters, she and I have gone in together with the same idea of, "Hey, let's have conversation with people."

Because I'm 43. Some people as soon as you say, "I'm 43," they're like, "Oh, I'm done. I'm not having a conversation with you." Or they find out you start sharing about Jesus, sometimes that turns people off. My daughter who is 16, who has been going in VR for probably three years now, right at the 13 age, she can go in and have conversations that I will never have.

She shares Jesus and shares things that she's learning. She's at a Christian school, so she's learning Bible verses, she's learning the stories, the passages, and she's sharing with these other people and making friends, playing games, making friends, and showing Jesus.

Ann Wilson: Is this your ministry? You're both on FamilyLife staff, but is this a way that you evangelize and is ministry?

Frank Kulgowski: Actually, I am with another team in Crew, but originally my main team, neither of them were doing this at first and I wasn't all plugged in. I really felt like I love field ministry. I love to share my faith. I love to go with other people, learn with them, do it with them. We were in the Middle East for a number of years and I love it, I miss it.

Lunchtime afforded me, right here at the headquarters, I could just put this on and in one minute I'm connected. So we started doing this at lunch and it was a ministry and it is a ministry. As it turned out, Jesus Film has actually put together a team where now they're focusing on virtual reality.

So I'm part-time with Jesus Film. They've got a team that's focused on AI and VR and these are two focal points. So now I can do it partly as a role and still ministry. Evenings, weekends sometimes I do, but it started off as lunch and the group that goes together at lunch, we've got a group of us that every week goes in. We assemble, we come into a room, we talk a little bit.

Ann Wilson: Do you all go into the same room?

Jonathan Ober: We start out at a spot that we have picked out as our hub. We go in there and we talk a little bit, share a little bit about what's going on each other's lives, as well as praying for our next step for where we're going to go. Then two by two or sometimes three, sometimes all four of us say, "Hey, let's go check out that world." You can scroll and you say, "What about that world today?" or "Oh, my friend Jim is there, let's go visit him." Every week we just go out.

Frank Kulgowski: One of our friends, Stewart, who has actually been used by the Lord in VR to help bring him to Christ, he's returned to continue to do this. This is his main role. This is his main thing. We're doing it part-time as a ministry, but it's growing and the Jesus Film team has got a dedicated team to reach these people.

Dave Wilson: It's really what happens on college campuses even today with Crew, with different ministries where they huddle, they pray, and let's go out. My first ever Christian meeting on the Ball State campus where I was playing quarterback, I'd just come to Christ, I go to this, it was called Prime Time. It was Crew. My discipler was a married student and said, "You've got to go to this meeting." I'm brand new and I'm walking to it embarrassed.

It's like you're going to a portal. Everything you just described, I experienced that night. This is pretty funny. I sit in the back row. I didn't know anybody. Bill, my buddy, wasn't there. Then the guy gets up to give the message. You won't believe this. He goes, "Hey, tonight's going to be a little different. Instead of me speaking, we're going to pair up two by two and we're going to go out to the campus and share the gospel."

He says, "Find somebody," and I get up and I'm out because I'm like, "No, I'm brand new. This is not me." I'm literally walking through the lobby of this dorm area and I'm going back to my dorm room and Bill comes running in. He says, "Where are you going?" I say, "Bill, they're going out to share Christ. That's not me." He goes, "No, you go with me." I go, "No, Bill, I don't know..." He says, "You don't even have to talk. You pray, I'll talk."

So I go. This is pretty funny. First guy, open door, we go in, I'm sitting on this bed across from this dude and Bill. Bill's got the Four Spiritual Laws. This is back in the 70s. He starts talking to this guy. Well, you know what happened? I watched Bill lead this guy to Jesus on that first day. It transformed my life. To think of that moment of my life, you're doing that in a new world in a world nobody even thinks is possible.

Ann Wilson: You could have created an avatar that nobody would have known who you were.

Frank Kulgowski: Mine's an anime figure with a ball cap and this kind of coat. I used to be a raccoon and I said, "Okay, I think I'll switch it now." You can do anything: a dragon, you could make a Ball State quarterback avatar easy enough and just design it and walk out.

Dave Wilson: I don't think that would be very attractive. What are you?

Jonathan Ober: My name is Jonathan, and so I go in as Jonathan from Hotel Transylvania, which is an animated movie. The reason I chose it is because one, we share the same name, and two, he is someone that when people see him, they're like, "Oh, you're..." and I'm like, "Jonathan from Hotel Transylvania." That starts a conversation because it's something that is familiar. That's why I've chosen that avatar. You can go and be a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle or Spider-Man or Lego Spider-Man or a cat or a dog, a dragon. If you think it, somebody probably made an avatar for it.

Frank Kulgowski: And the worlds. In VR Chat, I read somewhere that they say there's 25,000 worlds that people have made. We each get a home world when you first sign up, you just get your own little space. But anything, this studio, you can just make it exactly; you can put tables and chairs and light everything. You can go in and walk around in a VR Chat world that is just like this that someone created. There's McDonald's, there's 7-Eleven, there's a movie theater. People visit beaches and castles and dungeons and spaceships and treehouses. You make whatever you want.

Dave Wilson: Is there anything negative about stepping into this world and trying to reach people?

Ann Wilson: Would you allow your kids to do it without any kind of guidance?

Jonathan Ober: First off, as a parent, you need to know your children and you need to understand that there are dangers whenever you're in virtual spaces, let alone real-life places. For our daughters, it was always about the communication. Whenever they would play a video game or go into VR, my thought is always, "What are your plans? What are you going to do?"

Ann Wilson: Do you say that to them? I think it would be good to instruct parents on how to have those conversations.

Jonathan Ober: Yes. And now it's at the point where we have asked them that question enough that now they're like, "I'm going into VR to play XYZ game" or "I'm going to play on the Nintendo Switch and I'm going to play Mario Kart" or whatever it might be. That's just stage one: just communicate what are your plans.

Because if we just as Christians go into spaces where we don't have a plan, then usually the bad things happen or things we don't intend to happen. That would be part one. Part two is just being wise in what they're doing. If they say, "I'm going into VR Chat," okay, what is VR Chat, if you don't know? Ask them to show you.

There are ways that you can actually cast the headset to a TV or to a phone so that you can see exactly what they're doing, everything that you see. Even in the beginning, if you're like, "Hey, I really want to be a part of this and want to understand what you're doing, can we cast that to the phone or can we cast that to the TV? And then I'll watch." After a while, hopefully, that builds trust in your kid, your student, in what they're doing. You'll be able to see like, "Hey, maybe this isn't the best place to go."

The other thing is I would say our daughters have friends that are also doing this. They're going in together. If they're not going with me, they're going with a friend. Then it's just our policy that you need to stay together. It's easy to get lost in some of those places in terms of someone coming and maybe badgering you.

If you are trying to share the love of Jesus and you're sharing the Bible, it's easy to get distracted. You see something shiny, you see a new portal, maybe you want to go into that. But it's our policy: stay with your friend or stay with Dad when he's in there. I don't necessarily need to be a part of those conversations that they're having with other people, but the cool thing is I can step back as an avatar and my cone of hearing in the game could be right on the cusp of where they're standing and so I can still hear them, but I'm not in their space. I can build that trust with my student, with my child, and see like, "Okay, they're doing what they are called to do in this space."

Ann Wilson: Are there predators in this area that you have to warn your kids about?

Frank Kulgowski: When we talk about some of these VR spaces, there's a number of platforms. VR Chat specifically is pretty dark and it's pretty technically... they have some rules about hacking and all that, but as far as what people say, what they do, there are almost anything... things are happening.

I like what Ober said, really going with somebody else, going with a group and being there together, but it is very dark in some of these places. And yet you guys are walking into these spaces, a lot of times together, to be a light. So you're not necessarily saying to your little kids, "Yeah, go on in there," but you're saying, "We'd like to go and be a light and impact others with the gospel."

I will add too, I mentioned there's a number of platforms. Roblox is actually one that maybe you've heard. I know a lot of parents have kids or grandkids that are playing Roblox on the iPads and their phones. Roblox is, I believe, the largest metaverse platform at this time. I think my friend on the Jesus Film team, Bruce, was saying I think there was like over 300 million monthly active users.

Roblox is different in that they're really into security trying to keep it safe because there's a lot of kids there. They're aiming this for kids. Their rules, and they will boot people out, they monitor the things you say, so that is a much safer one, although there still are people, predators, trying to go in there.

But a much different platform, the feel is different. If my kid is really into Roblox, I might say, "Hey, you're playing it, you're with your friends. Have you thought about how the Lord could use this? How you can be having conversations? Even simple questions: asking questions, listening to people." If people are in Minecraft or Roblox or these spaces already, how can they start working through these spaces for the Lord?

Jonathan Ober: One of the things we've talked about with our daughters specifically is digital citizenship. We are citizens of God and what we do in the real world and how we interact with our friends, not talking behind their back and making sure that we're hospitable to them, to our neighbors, whomever it might be that comes into our life, we're citizens.

In these platforms, we're digital citizens where just like what we're doing in real life, are there things that you would do in these VR spaces or in these gaming spaces that you would not do in front of Mom and Dad or Grandma and Grandpa? No. Okay, good. Let's keep that. Just being a light there and sharing Jesus in whatever they do.

Ann Wilson: What's your goal? Why do you guys do this? What do you hope?

Jonathan Ober: I think the biggest goal is just to redeem a platform that right now doesn't seem redeemable. But also, I think the underlying is just meeting individuals. There are millions of people in Roblox. I looked up just recently, like 60,000 to 70,000 people in VR Chat. In those spaces, there's got to be at least one person that needs to know Jesus, if not tens of thousands.

Dave Wilson: What a great conversation with Jonathan and Frank about a world most of us don't even know exists. It's a metaverse, meta-universe. Whatever you call it, it's a place where a lot of people, not just our children, are hanging out.

Ann Wilson: Did you have any idea how many millions of people are in that world?

Dave Wilson: No. And the fact that we as parents don't often know, we need to know. It's something that will help us, and we're going to help you. Frank and Jonathan have put together a Metaverse Ministry Toolkit just for you.

We have it at FamilyLifeToday.com. Just click on the link in the show notes and this will get you started to help navigate this metaverse. Guess what? We're going to talk about it again tomorrow, so join us back tomorrow.

Ann Wilson: FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife, a Crew ministry, celebrating 50 years of God's faithfulness as marriages grow stronger and families flourish in him.