FamilyLife Today®

Ron Deal: One of my professors said something I've never forgotten. He said, "A lot of people argue over what addiction is and how do you know you have one." He said, "Basically, when you can't do life without the thing, you're attached to it in an unhealthy way."

Anybody who says, "Hey, this is not harming anybody. This is how I cool my jets. This is how I figure out how I'm going to do life tomorrow." Okay, then give it up. "Oh no, I don't want to give it up." Okay, then you can't do life without the thing. That's an idol. It is standing between you and your total trust in God, your reliance and dependence and surrender to Him, and it needs to go.

Ann Wilson: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Ann Wilson.

Dave Wilson: And I’m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.

Ann Wilson: This is going to be another great day with Ron Deal. Welcome to FamilyLife Today. We're going to get into some things.

Dave Wilson: Artificial intelligence, AI as a companion. Crazy. Who would have ever thought this would be something that we have to talk about? But we are today, and it's going to be great. Let's jump in with Ron.

Ann Wilson: I loved having these conversations with our middle schoolers and high schoolers. One of the ways that we would approach these questions was, "Hey, what are kids saying about AI companions?"

Dave Wilson: That’s good. Because you know they’re all talking about it. They don’t have to talk about themselves specifically, but it gives you an idea what’s happening in their world, and then you can dive in a little deeper each time.

I think that conversation at the dinner table or wherever—I remember this was before digital devices were a thing—asking my middle school son, he was 13, I think, eighth grade. I said, "Hey, CJ, how many guys on your wrestling team look at porn?" He said, "Everybody."

If you asked your middle schooler today how many of your classmates are talking about AI companions, I'm guessing the answer's the same. We have to step in there.

Ron Deal: I love what you said. One of the first things I think I would say is relationships are hard. Easy is not always better. Hard actually is better because it's going to develop you to understand how to relate to a real person, and it's going to be messy at times.

So step into that. It's going to be better in the long run. The easier chatbot girlfriend or boyfriend will end up like porn. It will be something that will be really, really hard for you to break.

Ann Wilson: And empty. There's an emptiness to it.

Ron Deal: I've got a few little teaching points that I'd like to throw out and then have you guys react to them. In particular with kids and with one another as adults, teach screen management. Now, that's just a general thing. How much time are you spending on a screen?

I know we've had programs on FamilyLife Today talking about that, and it's important. But have those family practices, like charging phones in one place all night long so people don't lay in bed just looking or talking to their AI chatbot as it were.

That kind of stuff. Developing those habits, you having those habits as a parent and your kids are watching you have those habits—it is really important to do that. Put a phone down when you're having conversation at dinner. All those kind of little tips and rules are helpful. What are we teaching? We're teaching self-control over technology that then extends into this specific area of technology, the AI chatbots. I think that's important.

We're going to teach them to be discerning and recognize that AI is designed to hook you. It's designed to mirror your little worldview and validate how you think life should be. It's not going to challenge you on anything. It's not objective. It's designed to make you feel good about yourself.

By the way, that really works against what God's trying to do in us much of the time. Of course, God loves us and that makes us feel good about who we are. But feeling good about Ron and Ron never has to change anything? No, that's not really helpful. That's not biblical. It's not going to help you in your walk with Jesus. I think we need to say that out loud so that our kids get it.

This is after you in a way. Proverbs 3: God disciplines those whom He loves. God loves you. AI does not. God's going to help you be wise in life. AI is going to help you be wise in your own eyes. Who are we really trusting with the important things of life? God delights in you. He's after you, but He wants to grow you up and teach you all kinds of wonderful things. Talk about that easy and hard stuff. All of that is really, really important.

I think we need to teach that talking to a chatbot when they're lonely is a bit of a danger sign. Maybe you're beginning to replace God with this chatbot. Your need, your loneliness, your depression, your sadness, your grief, your dilemma with your friend at school—whatever that thing is, the best first place to take that is not something technological. It's your Lord. That's the best first place. Just making those kinds of things overt so that we and our children are developing habits that we manage technology, and it doesn't manage us.

Guest (Female): The thing that pops into my head, Ron, when you say that is just when the disciples were saying to Jesus, "Don't leave us." And He said, "No, it's better that I leave you because I'm sending my Comforter, the Holy Spirit, to be with you always."

And even when He said to the disciples as He was ascending to the Father, "Lo, I will be with you always." His presence is always with us. And so for us His people, His children, to get into a habit of conversation with Him continually—Paul says pray without ceasing. That just looks like continual relationship with the Father. He's way better than an AI chatbot. He's powerful. He's the almighty God who knows everything about us more than any fake AI thing could.

Guest (Male): When God says, "I love you," which He absolutely constantly says and proved it by dying on the cross for our sins, He means it. When a chatbot says, "I love you," it's a lie. It's just a lie. It may feel like it's true, but it's not true.

Ron Deal: There's something underneath all of this that I'd love for us to just tackle if we could. Evil is going to use anything neutral for evil. It just is. So, of course, that's there. I also think there's a cultural matter going on, and in some ways in the church and those of us in marriage ministry may share a little of the responsibility for how people have been set up to run to these AI companions.

Here's what I'm getting at. How many conversations have you had with your children, adult children or otherwise, about how they Google everything? I've started calling it the Google God because it seems to have all the answers for life. Just YouTube that or search that, ask Google, and you'll get your answers.

Now, listen to that. We have already moved into this place where that's normal. The Google God has answers. We all do it. And some people just do it incessantly. So of course an AI chatbot who will have a dialogue with you—Google only gives you one answer; a chatbot will have a conversation with you—and it's like you're talking to a person.

Again, it's even more drawing you into feeling like this is something real when it's a pseudo-relationship at best. But part of this is, "meet my needs." I can go to Google and it meets my needs. I can go to YouTube and get an answer to how to fix this thing and it meets my needs.

Culture says relationships are about meeting needs. I need to find somebody—this is the prevailing cultural thought about finding a spouse—"I need to find somebody who will support my brand." My brand is out there on Instagram. My brand is out there on social media. This is who I am. And so what I need to do is find somebody who says, "Ron, you're perfect just the way you are."

Look, that's not what relationships do. From a biblical standpoint, we know relationships disciple us into the image of Jesus. It is the grind of loving, of serving, of sacrificing, of asking for forgiveness, for recognizing my faults, for working on me to be a more perfect Jesus in my marriage, for example. That grind is growing me up into the image of Jesus. That's where difficult brings blessing. Easy just brings easy. Easy just keeps me selfish.

If there's no self-denial, that's just ugly because we become narcissists. Culture says find the easy, find the thing that affirms you. God says, "No, I'm going to let relationships rub off your rough edges, Ron. Teach you some things about you you need to know so you can become even more of a lover and giver and self-giving just like Jesus."

Guest (Male): When we hear messages and sometimes we say this in the church, I think, "Find a person that meets your needs. That's your soulmate. Marry her, marry him." And then when you get married and they don't meet your needs, you think, "I married the wrong person. There's another person out there who's going to meet my needs better."

The answer is you didn't marry the wrong person; you're looking in the wrong place. You've got to look to God. God's the only one who's going to meet your needs. But we do that, and now we have a fake person who, in a sense, really does feel like she understands me better than my human wife. And so that is a false god. We've made them a false god.

Ron Deal: At the end of the day, we're talking about idols here. We have inadvertently sort of set people up with the "meet my need" thing, and we've got to challenge that cultural value. We've got to challenge that as it comes to relationships and forming relationships, but we also have to challenge it as it relates to how I manage my technology rather than letting it manage me. Definitely a thing, not only for us as parents with our kids, I think for us.

I didn't know the stats. I mean, the millions of people—it's just—it's going to be a big problem that we are going to have to address. Think about as couples that are listening and they have an AI chat companion. Should we tell our spouse about it? What if we have one and we haven't said anything to our spouse? Secrecy breeds distrust and more sinful behavior. So absolutely, I would talk about it. I would share it.

If I were to begin to have an ongoing relationship—again, it seems so weird to even say that out loud—but ongoing relationship with a chatbot as a friend, as a coach, as an AI assistant, let alone a deep friend, let alone a romantic sort of interest, I would absolutely share those conversations with my wife. Full visibility. Let her know what's going on, share with her. She has full access if she ever wants to see the dialogue on the phone. We'll scroll it back and you can see everything that's happened there.

Because that kind of disclosure just creates an accountability, helps everybody keep in mind what's happening here and what is not happening here. I think that's really good for all of us. Anytime there's light shed on something, it helps us have some integrity and keep it where it needs to be.

Guest (Male): There's also that underlying root. There's something else going on underneath that you've got to understand. Why am I turning to this when I'm lonely or I'm empty? What is underneath there that I've got to figure out? Maybe we need to figure it out in our marriage even that makes me in a weak moment or an empty moment say, "I'm going to drink this, or I'm going to watch this, or I'm going to talk to this person," which is a thing. You've got to get underneath it. There's something going on that's a little deeper.

Ron Deal: In Ann and my book, *The Mindful Marriage*, escape is one of the four things that is predictable that we all do. And so when you find yourself escaping to a friend to solve a problem, escaping away from what's difficult or painful into easy, then that is a sure sign that there's pain underneath.

What's the pain about? Well, I don't know what that pain is. It could be our relationship feels fragile. I'm not sure I trust you, you're not sure you trust me. We've had some conflict in the past. It's uneasy, anxious about it, therefore I go toward easy. That is a sure sign. It is a sure blinking yellow light that should be to me when I do that—it should be to anybody else who witnesses me doing that—that there's something here we've got to get underneath. We've got to chase that pain and figure out what it's about so that I can put on self-control about not running into or escaping into easy.

I mean, this is just fundamental to how we function and operate in life. We've got to recognize it. Again, we started by saying AI can be a wonderful technology. We're using it for ministry. We're doing all kinds of cool things. I know in our particular ministry, we're creating video clips with it. It's reducing the amount of work and speeding up how quickly we're able to respond to people in life. There's some great things that are happening there, but we stay in charge of that rather than succumbing to what it wants from us.

Hey friends, Ron Deal here, Director of FamilyLife Blended®. Did you know *Blended and Blessed*®, the only worldwide livestream designed for couples in blended families, is free this year? Saturday, April 18th, we're going to be live in Oklahoma City. If you show up there, we're going to charge you for lunch, but other than that, it is free. Free to livestream. Churches can bring a group of couples together and enjoy the day absolutely free. Gayla Grace is going to be with us, Davey and Kristi Blackburn, Cheryl Shumake's going to be with us, Kathy Lipp and Brian Goins, our emcee. It's going to be a wonderful day. I hope you can join us. Learn more and get the link in the show notes at FamilyLifeToday.com.

Ann Wilson: What about the person that's listening and thinking, "You guys are just alarmist. You're taking it way over the top. When I come home, this has helped my anxiety. It's helped my loneliness. I'm just talking to this AI companion as a friend. I'm just kind of re-hashing what's going on. And it's been really helpful. I've told my husband about it. I don't get why you're making such a big deal about this. And to be honest, I don't have time every day to get in the Word. And this is kind of like—it's not Jesus, but it's somebody with skin on it in a way."

Dave Wilson: Though there's no skin. You created the skin.

Ron Deal: Two quick thoughts come to mind. When the internet became an easy way to find pornography, I remember saying to people, "Oh no, this is going to get bad." And I had people look at me like you're just an alarmist, this is not going to be a big deal. And here we are. Let's all look back, we all know what's real and how much porn is impacting people's lives and kids at the age of seven.

The other thought that comes to mind is 32 years ago I was in graduate school, and one of my professors said something I've never forgotten. He said, "You know, a lot of people argue over what addiction is and how do you know you have one?" He said, "Basically, when you can't do life without the thing, you're attached to it in an unhealthy way."

Anybody who says, "Hey, this is not harming anybody. We're just friends. I'm just, you know, this is how I cool my jets. This is how I figure out how I'm going to do life tomorrow. And yeah, sure, it makes me feel good about me." Okay, then give it up. "Oh no, I don't want to give it up." Okay, then you can't do life without the thing. That's an idol. It is standing between you and your total trust in God, your reliance and dependence and surrender to Him, and it needs to go.

Guest (Male): I remember, boy, it had to be 25 years ago, I did a sermon on the weekend at my church on alcohol. One of the practical things I said was exactly what you just said. I said, "Hey, if you don't think it's a problem in your life, give it up for 30 days. Just give it up for 30 days. Not a drink for 30 days. And I want to hear from you how that went." I cannot tell you hundreds of people said, "I didn't think it was an issue. I could barely make it 30 days without a beer. Or a glass of wine." It's just like, wow, I really didn't realize every night that glass—he goes, "I'm not an alcoholic, I'm not getting drunk, but just having a drink, it was much more important to me than I realized." And just a 30-day experiment revealed it.

Ron Deal: Not too long ago, our church asked all of us to give something up for a week. We were all fasting from something. Nan and I talked about it, and we decided to give up social media and a couple of other things. I'm one of those guys that spends about 10 minutes on social media a day. I kind of sort of like it, sort of don't. I feel obligated, and so I jump in, and then I'm like, yeah, I don't know what's here. I really didn't think that was going to be a big deal.

I felt it every single day. Because there's those moments where I'd get bored, and I—here's what I noticed out of that fast. I'm watching a basketball game, and I'm loving every minute of it, and they cut to a commercial, and I—I want to go to Instagram and scroll for two minutes until the game comes back on. Why do I do that? I start chasing my pain. What is it? Oh, it's a moment of boredom. And I can get a dopamine hit from Instagram right here, right now. And you begin to recognize, no, this has a bigger attachment on me than I realized. I really need to be in charge of that.

As I sum up our conversation today, I mean, this is sort of what hits me. AI can be a friend. It can be a quick answer to things. It can make you more efficient in your work. It can teach you some good stuff. It can be a nice AI assistant, a wonderful resource. But if we let it, it will become our lover. It will become our god. And that should not be.

Dave Wilson: I'm just thinking of a lot of parents, maybe of adult kids, and they know their kids are doing this, and they're worried about it. Do we as parents of adult children say anything?

Ron Deal: I know you guys are talking about this in your household, Nan and I are talking about this in our household. I want to say three things. The first thing is pray. Pray because you just moment to moment you're unsure what to do in any given situation.

The other quality is Jim Burns has taught all of us: most times you need to keep your mouth shut. You need to let your kids be adults. You need to keep the welcome mat out, as he says, and be available. If they bring it to you, absolutely speak in, because then your influence is welcomed at that point in time. But pushing yourself into their spaces, be really cautious and hesitant about that.

Now, having said that, if there's danger, we would all jump in. If they were driving a car that was on fire, if they were walking to the edge of a cliff and didn't see it—we would speak up to those sorts of things. And so at some point I do think there is a space where we do need to speak to our adult children.

But how you do that is absolutely critical. It's one thing to say, "Ann, man, you're on your phone all the time. What are you doing? Is that Google God really running your life over there?" I'm shutting you down with that tone, with that, and that's me parenting you. So with an adult child it's really important that we come alongside and soft and say, "You know how much I love you. And by the way, I like to preface and say, you know how much I love you and you know how much I take your independence seriously, and I don't want to step on toes, and I don't want to be Dad, always telling you what to do. Having said that, I have some concern. I've noticed a couple things, I'd just like to share my heart with you. I'm for you on this, I want us to figure this thing out together."

Okay, so I've noticed this AI thing is kind of a ongoing conversation for you. It just feels like maybe it's grabbing a little bit of your heart. What do you think? That whole tone is what I'm going for is adult. I'm not speaking down parent-child. I'm trying to say I'm delicate here, I'm watching my space, forgive me if I'm stepping on toes, and yet I'm getting to the point. I'm opening up the conversation and even if at that point I think your adult child says, "Yeah, no, I'm not having this conversation with you," you've still said something. It's still there. You let it go and trust that somehow that maybe opens the door to a further conversation later.

Ann Wilson: And I always say, and Dave and I always say, as they get older you say less and you pray more. And so if you are going to enter into that conversation, I would be so prayed up. I'd have your friends praying for you—not that you're telling your friends everything about your kids, but you're saying, "Hey, I'm going to have a conversation with one of my kids, and will you just keep that in prayer?" Because it is, it's delicate. And the way you shared that and talked, Ron, was incredibly humble.

Dave Wilson: That was a great model. If you're that parent, rewind, listen to that model in that Ron just gave you again because it's the way you want to step in. And that could be true of a 21, 22-year-old college kid as well as a 35-year-old adult married. Either way, you want to come in gently, but also you have something very important to say and maybe God's going to use that to change their life.

Ron Deal: And you know what? I think you can take the exact same approach with your spouse. See, one of the things we do when we get anxious in a marriage is we become parental toward our spouse. As soon as you become parental toward your spouse, you're just asking them to ignore you and oppose you, as scripture would say. So the adult-adult, the softening, the I see this, I'm for you, I'm with you, I'm here to help, that same strategy is how we, as Ann would say, offer a care-frontation to one another as husbands and wives every once in a while. It's a care for you. It's not a confront you and tell you how to live life.

Dave Wilson: Good stuff, man. I would never have thought in the last 40 years of my life we'd ever have a conversation about AI companions, but I think it's just the beginning of many conversations.

Ron Deal: I think you're right. Thanks for filling us in, giving us wisdom, and even some action steps to take. And I think the first place to look is our own lives. Jesus, what do you want me to know about this? What do you want me to do about this? I think that's a good start. Thanks guys.

Dave Wilson: Before we're done today, let me just say this. At FamilyLife, we really believe strong families can change the world. And when you become a FamilyLife partner, you help make that happen.

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