FamilyLife Today®

Dave Wilson: Hey, before we dive in, I just want to remind our listeners that our vision for families at familylife.com is to follow Jesus to impact children, parenting, marriages, not just here, but around the world. We can't do that without you.

Ann Wilson: Yeah, and that's why we do what we do, but you probably don't know this. We have hundreds, even thousands of financial partners, people that pray for us, but also say I don't want to just pray. I want to be a part of this ministry and I'm going to give part of my income every single month to Family Life to help this ministry impact the world. So you can be a partner with us. You in in a sense, you're impacting others just through our voice and through this program.

Dave Wilson: Mhm. And we need you.

Ann Wilson: Yeah, and if you're sitting there thinking, man, I didn't even know they had monthly supporters like that. Yes, we do. And they literally are partners. We are partnering together to change the world for Jesus Christ. So here's how you can do that. Just go to familylifetoday.com, click on the donate button, and become a partner today. Okay, so I got a question for you. If a new follower of Christ came up to you or if one of our boys

Dave Wilson: Yeah.

Ann Wilson: came up to you and said, I really want to grow in my walk with God. I'm a brand new follower of Christ. How do I grow best? What do I do?

Dave Wilson: I'd say get to know and fall in love with Jesus and how do you do that?

Ann Wilson: He's already He's already done that.

Dave Wilson: No, he hasn't. I'd say get I mean, the thing I usually say is I'd get to know

Ann Wilson: How do I get to fall in love with Jesus? Let's get in an argument about this.

Dave Wilson: Get to know his word, be in prayer, like be with other believers. That's usually what I say.

Ann Wilson: Yeah, and I think that's honestly what most people say.

Dave Wilson: Oh, is that wrong?

Ann Wilson: I think it 's right, but I think it's deeper than that. Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Anne Wilson.

Dave Wilson: And I'm Dave Wilson, and you can find us at familylifetoday.com. This is Family Life Today. This is a critical question.

Ann Wilson: Yeah, I think we all want this answer.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, I even think people that aren't followers of Christ want to know how do I change, but if you're a follower of Christ, I think you get frustrated cuz you're we often don't feel like we're changing enough and we're not sure we're doing it right.

Ann Wilson: I think as parents, too, we're all longing like how do we help our kids with this?

Dave Wilson: And so we have someone in the studio today to help us answer that question. Dane Ortlund is back. Dane, welcome to Family Life Today.

Dane Ortlund: Dave and Anne, it is always great to talk with you. A ton of fun, so thank you.

Ann Wilson: Dane, you've written a book called Deeper, and the subtitle is Real Change for Real Sinners, and we have loved reading this.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, this is uh I think it's a classic work on this topic. As you know, as a you're a pastor in Naperville of Naperville of Presbyterian. I've been a pastor for 30 years. This is something close to our heart as pastors helping lead people, and that is the biggest question they ask.

Ann Wilson: And also you and your wife have five kids. And so this is something like you're teaching your kids, too, and you're modeling this to them.

Dave Wilson: So we got to get you to dig into this. How do we change? Cuz you know, I look at your subtitle, Real Change for Real Sinners, and I'm living with a real sinner. She's sitting right here beside me.

Ann Wilson: I think every person could say that.

Dave Wilson: And I've been trying to change her and it's not working. So there must be a deeper way. Okay, so yeah, you know, go where we were. Like if your kids ask you or anybody, how do I change? Where do you start?

Dane Ortlund: Oh man. Well, that subtitle was very carefully chosen, guys. Real Change for Real Sinners as opposed to what we all tend to naturally, intuitively think, which is the way I grow is really about kind of behavioral change, external change, doing something differently in my life, cutting carbs, getting up earlier for real sinners as opposed to theoretical sinners. I mean, we all believe we are born sinful. Okay, that's true. But actually we are proving that doctrine every day in our actual lives. So I'm I'm wrestling in this book with what the scripture says under the coaching of great thinkers from the past as to how do we enjoy real change, not merely behavioral, for real sinners, not merely theoretical sinners.

And actually, Dave, that's me. I am frustrated in my life with how little how much it feels like two steps forward and five steps backward in a given day, week, or month. And I want to keep growing in this, and I think many of us Christians, maybe we can say all believers know what that is to know like I feel like I'm on a treadmill. How do I really begin to get traction in my spiritual life?

Dave Wilson: I resonate with what you said, Dane. It's like, okay, I've seen God transform my life. I'm a different man than I was, but boy oh boy, I thought I'd be a lot farther along than where I am. And like you said, it's like two steps for me 20 steps backward.

Dane Ortlund: Yeah, exactly, Dave. I know what you mean, and I I think I'm probably going to die one day still feeling that way. So praise God for the gospel. But to loop back to what you said a minute ago, what would I say to my kids when they come to me or to a someone who sits down in my office here in Naperville and says, you know, I'm really struggling. How do I grow? There's 100 things to say, but here's number one on the list. Number one on the list is exactly what Anne said at the top of the show here.

The Lord

Dave Wilson: Oh, did you hear that? I got something right.

Dane Ortlund: I I did not hear that.

Dave Wilson: Okay, keep going, Dane.

Dane Ortlund: Who is the Lord Jesus? We grow by going deeper into the Lord Jesus and what was true of us at our conversion, not by graduating on to other tricks, tips, and strategies. Who is Jesus? Ephesians 3:8 the unsearchable riches of Christ. I've come to believe the way that we grow and get traction in the Christian life is by sinking more deeply into who Jesus in all his multifaceted wonder is as our Lord, savior, friend, and deliverer. So that's the banner over which I would want to frame everything about how we grow.

Dave Wilson: Well, I thought it was intriguing like even as you say that, one of the things you also said is the basic point of this book is that changes of matter of what you said, Dane, going deeper. Christian growth is bringing what you do and say and even feel into line with what in fact you already are.

Dane Ortlund: Right.

Dave Wilson: Real change occurs through this reality, the life of God in the soul of man. Talk about that.

Dane Ortlund: Oh, guys, when we read the New Testament, there's actually not that much about growing. I mean, it's there. It 's there. We want to grow up into him who is the head, that is Christ. Ephesians 4 and so on. But for example, to take first, second, and third John, there's not a word about growth in those three letters. Here's the consistent ringing message of the New Testament. And growth slots in under this. The message of the New Testament for the Christian life is be who you now are. I already have by the grace of God as someone united to Jesus Christ with the Holy Spirit dwelling in me.

I have everything I need to grow. I don't need to look outward and elsewhere. Yes, we need to be part of a local church and have a community and there's all kinds of footnotes to this. But the point of the New Testament is you are now a son or a daughter of God, justified, adopted, and reconciled. Live in light of it. That's who you are. Walk in light with who you are. That's the consistent rhythm of the New Testament.

Dave Wilson: Well, talk about that then. If you are saying growth is be who you now are, part of me thinks, oh, that's an inward look at myself, not an upward look at who Jesus is. So balance out those two perspectives.

Dane Ortlund: That's a great objection, Dave, that that some are doubtless saying. And the answer is on the one hand, the way we be who we now are is by learning more resolutely all the time to look out of ourselves at the Lord Jesus, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, Hebrews 12. But here's the point. As we go through the Christian life, what we're doing is now here's someone they've really hurt me and offended me. How do I deal with that? The answer is forgive as I have been forgiven. How do I bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit?

I don't get on fruit of the holyspirit.com and click sign me up. I recognize the Holy Spirit is within me. I simply need to keep in step with who I now am. I have been lifted out of the old age and parachuted into the new age. I still live in the old age in the sense that the flesh is still strong in me. I still sin. I 'm still fallen. Yes, but my ID card spiritually says in heaven. I need to now live in light of what is already true of me. The reason I'm putting it this way, guys, is it's liberating.

It's freeing. I don't need to like so much achieve some new level of holiness. I just need to when I'm done with this interview, walk out of my office and love others mindful of how audaciously, invincibly, and permanently loved I am by God.

Dave Wilson: But Dane, I hear that and we know that like intellectually we hear it, we agree with it, we know it's sound biblical teaching. Why do we fail and why don't we live like that?

Dane Ortlund: Uh because we are real sinners. So this is hey, guys, here's one of the things I wanted to say in the book. This is under a chapter called Acquittal. What I wanted to say is if you want to grow in Christ and you're frustrated because you are not, that's a sign that God is in you. That itself is hope giving. Okay, number one. Number two one key way, Anne, that we keep growing is by never losing sight of the good news, the gospel that got us in in the first place. We're going to be stumbling and battling our way forward.

We're going to be messing up all the time. And one key way that we get traction in the Christian life is by constantly returning to pressing refresh on the good news, the scandalous gospel that got us in. That is never irrelevant. It's not like we need that to get in and then we move on to other things. And then we die one day and we need it again then. No, it's what keeps us in the air all the way along.

Dave Wilson: Hey, so if something on a day's episode just clicked with you, we want you to know that you are not alone because every single marriage has its fair share of just highs, but also lows.

Ann Wilson: Nope. You've heard our highs and you've heard a lot of our lows, but the question is where do we go to get help? That was our question. Let me tell you, we are so thankful that you listened today. And we have a resource that we would love to share with you. It's a free guide that will be filled with helpful marriage wisdom from real life couples who been right where you are.

Dave Wilson: So you can grab your copy today at familylifetoday.com/marriagehelp. Again, did you hear that? Go to familylifetoday.com/marriagehelp for your free guide full of marriage tips.

Ann Wilson: If I'm super busy and stuff's going on and I'm just like running hard, my schedule is so crazy, I'm not getting a chance to spend time with Jesus. I find myself struggling because when I am with him and I see him and I'm experiencing and reminding myself of his great love, that is what changes me and it motivates me and and that's what draws me back to him because I need to be reminded daily, sometimes hourly of that love because I feel like the world is constantly making us feel like we are failing, we are failing, we are failing.

And so I think you're right. To go deeper is seeing Jesus, reminding us of the gospel and all that he's done and paid for us.

Dane Ortlund: I love that, Anne. I agree strongly. And just to add a little brief footnote onto that, we don't change by focusing on change. We change by focusing on Christ and change comes in the back door. We don't mainly grow by thinking about, oh, am I growing or not? I mean, now that becomes what Dave was saying, to really self-reflective like we're holding up a mirror to ourselves all the time. But what if instead of a mirror we were holding up a window looking at Christ? That's actually what changes us, beholding him.

Ann Wilson: Yeah, and I and I loved how you opened the book doing that for the reader. Page 22 you say, but let me ask you to open yourself up to the possibility that one reason you see modest growth and ongoing sin in your life, if that is indeed the case, is that the Jesus you are following I love how you wrote this is a junior varsity Jesus, an unwittingly reduced Jesus, an unsurprising and predictable Jesus. You know, I've said many times as a pastor, it's not the size of your faith that matters, it's the size of your God.

Dane Ortlund: Amen.

Ann Wilson: You know, and it's like we always think I need bigger faith. I want I want to grow my faith and yet it's like a faith can be mustard seed size, but if it's in the right object, if we understand who Jesus really is. So you take the early part of your book and say, let me show you who Jesus is. Talk about any one of those attributes cuz you walked through several that I've never seen written the way you wrote it. So talk about them.

Dave Wilson: And I'm I'm going to say to our listeners like listen in on this. We all need to be reminded of this and it because it changes us.

Dane Ortlund: Yeah. Well, here's one way I would start to answer that question, Dave, and thank you for that, guys, is the Jesus we're bored with is not the real Jesus. If you're bored with Jesus, the problem is you, not him. I'm not talking to you, too, but anyone and myself at the top of the list. Why do I just get so flat and like ho hum about the Lord Jesus? Because I don't see who he really is. The real Jesus is not boring. The real Jesus is irresistible and inexhaustible. And that 's what I wanted to do in the first chapter is just try to draw out some ways that the Lord Jesus looms larger than we realize.

So for example, one little section in there was reflecting on the intercession of Jesus. That's a big theological word, but the New Testament gives it to us. And all that means is Jesus is not twiddling his thumbs in heaven right now, and he did his real job 2,000 years ago, and now he 's exhausted his job description. No, he's in heaven before the angels in the court of heaven, before the Father, interceding on our behalf. It doesn't mean he's making us anymore saved. What it means is he is applying our full salvation in the court of heaven.

In other words, here I am. Here's Dane stumbling his way and sinning his way through his little messy life. And not only is it true that Jesus Christ died for me and therefore I am justified. I'm free to leave the courtroom. It is also true. He's interceding for me. And therefore he is reminding the whole host of heaven of just how justified, forgiven, and and safe I am. So I don't think we talk about that enough, guys. The intercession of Christ, it's wonderfully comforting.

Ann Wilson: Yeah, and I love when you talked about that in the book. You said the reason he's interceding is we are still sinning.

Dane Ortlund: Yes. It isn't like we came to Christ and he's done interceding. He's still interceding because right now we're still stumbling along like you said. Talk about befriending. I love that aspect when you wrote about that. Well, we we say in our evangelical world, and we should, that the Lord Jesus is our Lord and our savior. Hallelujah. Amen. But that's not the only thing to say about him. He could be our Lord and our savior, and really we functionally look at him more like an employer. But actually he says John 15, I no longer call you servants.

I call you friends. We've diluted the category of friendship through Facebook and other things, but think of what the word friend means. Here's someone who is with me going through my life shoulder to shoulder with me. He's not only above me. He's not only within me. He's next to me navigating life at my side. He is my friend. He always lets me in and never lets me down. And here's the glory of it. He never misunderstands me. Can I put it that way? We have friends and they nod and smile, they let me pray for you and they understand partially, but no one ever fully, exhaustively understands 100% all the weirdness going on inside of me that is making life hard, even a spouse.

Jesus Christ is the friend of sinners. And he always understands us perfectly, perfect solidarity. So that's gloriously comforting.

Dave Wilson: Hey, I just want to pause for a moment and remind you as a listener, you might need to hear this. You are not alone.

Ann Wilson: Nope.

Dave Wilson: You're not alone. And whatever you're going through today, you're not alone. I don't know if you know this, but Dave and I have a team at Family Life Today ready to pray for you. It's this incredible honor and privilege just to lift your name up to God. So if you need prayer, please please reach out to us. You can head on over to familylifetoday.com/prayforme. Again, that's familylifetoday.com/prayforme and tell us how can we pray for you? And we're not kidding. Dave and I have a prayer team specifically dedicated to praying for our listeners, praying for you.

I walk almost every day, and that's when I'm going to be praying for you. And Dave, you always fast on Fridays, and that's when you pray. Well, more than just Fridays.

Ann Wilson: Yeah, it isn't just Fridays, but all day Friday while I'm getting hunger pangs, I'm praying. It's like breathing. I'm praying all day and often I pray for Family Life listeners like you. And like Anne said, you're not alone.

Dave Wilson: You matter to us.

Ann Wilson: Yeah, and God is with you and we would love to lift you up by name. So again, go to familylifetoday.com/prayforme and we will pray for you and our team will pray for you.

Dane Ortlund: So I mean, as beautiful as you described this image of who Jesus really is, here's my question. Why do we forget this? Why does that get lost? I mean, I wish I was talking for somebody else, but I'm talking for me. I know the things you said. I I think I've understood them. I I've read them in scripture. I've taught them.

Dave Wilson: You've studied everything in Greek and Hebrew.

Dane Ortlund: And yet Yeah, and so often in my life it's like I live without that vision of Jesus present in my mind. It's so true. Me, too, Dave. I mean, we're like leaky buckets. It's just constantly um leaking out of us or we're like It's like this. If I shift my heart into neutral, I drift away from wondering, being startled and surprised and praising the Lord Jesus Christ, worshiping my way forward into change. Um so I have no idea what the answer to your question is. None. If you figure it out, tell me. Uh but we are we're we're fallen.

We're sinners. I mean, we're it's just who we are. So the really the main thing that we need to have sort of as the banner, the umbrella over what we're saying as we're talking about how we change is that God has changeless embrace of us despite our changing levels of sanctification and growth and obedience. There's something unchangeable, and that's the Lord's own hug. That's the Lord's own pulling of us into his own heart and our safe and secure adopted status as his children. So your question because it is so hard to answer is why we must always be grabbing onto the gospel and never letting go of it as we're wrestling with why we are so weird and bad at growing.

Dave Wilson: But I think, too, as a family, as a husband, as a wife, and with our kids, I think the thing that our kids see though is that wrestling. And I think that's okay that we continue to run after Jesus. We might fall down, we're scraped, we're skinned, but to see us get back up and to continue to pursue and run after Jesus, I think our kids see that and that's important.

Dane Ortlund: Amen. And I am screwing up all the time as a dad and a husband. Okay, that's true. At the least could my wife and my kids see someone who is repentant?

Dave Wilson: Yeah.

Dane Ortlund: Someone who has humility in the wake of screwing up. What I want is a home where pretense is low rather than a home where pretense is high and we're all faking it. I'm yelling at them in the minivan all the way to church, and then we pull into the parking lot. I say, everyone paint a smile on now. That's pretense. I don't want that. And I want my kids to grow up and say, you know, my dad screwed a lot of things up, but when he did, he apologized. So that was a real Christian who was raising us in our home.

So I agree with what you just said, Anne.

Ann Wilson: And how would we in our homes, in our marriages, in our families be different if we went to scripture, not as a spiritual discipline for growth, although that will be a byproduct, if we went to scripture merely to get a real good look at who God is through Jesus. I mean, that

Dave Wilson: Mhm.

Ann Wilson: I mean, if I'm a husband listening today, that's my action step. If I'm a wife, I'm like, go grab your Bible, open it up, and say, God, show me who you are and you will see him in a way maybe you haven't seen and that will change you and change your family and change your legacy. That one action step is that critical.

Dane Ortlund: Amen. I I grew up and saw my mom on the couch downstairs every time I groggily stumbled downstairs as a kid with her cup of tea and her Bible open every single morning. She was doing what you were just describing, Dave, and it's marked me for life.

Dave Wilson: Okay, you may not know this, but we want to hear from you.

Ann Wilson: Yeah, like literally hear you.

Dave Wilson: You can leave us a voice message with your questions, concerns, praise reports, or whatever. You know, maybe Dave said something that you totally disagree with.

Ann Wilson: Why do you have to pick on me? Maybe it's you said something.

Dave Wilson: Maybe, probably.

Ann Wilson: Or maybe it was inspiring. See? See? I was nice.

Dave Wilson: No. I know you're always nicer than me.

Ann Wilson: I don't think so. Or maybe you just want us to answer a question or explore a certain topic. Whatever you want to say, you get to call and say

Dave Wilson: All you have to do is go to speakpipe.com/familylifetoday. Again, that's speakpipe.com/familylifetoday or get the link in the show notes.

Ann Wilson: Again, it's speakpipe.com/familylifetoday.

Dave Wilson: Okay, it's Dane Ortlund, one of our all time favorites.

Ann Wilson: All time favorites. You know, we should say that about every guest cuz we love everyone, but Dane is pretty special. And his book is special, too. Again, it's called Deeper, Real Change for Real Sinners. And I'm telling you, it's one of the best I've read and you need to get it or get a copy for one of your friends or your spouse. Here it is. Go to familylifetoday.com and just click on the link in the show notes and uh you can get the book and we'll have Dane back with us tomorrow. Family Life Today is a donor supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry.

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