FamilyLife Today®

Noe Garcia: If I don't take my thoughts captive, they will take me captive. And I will become a prisoner to my thoughts. It's like the enemy can whisper one thing, and if I'm not careful, I will take the one word and write a novel out of it. Let's say I lose my temper on my kids, and I'm telling myself, you're just like your father. Now, I can take this and write a novel and make it true, or I can take the thought captive, bring it before God, and if it doesn't hold up in this court, I have to fight to dismiss it.

Ann Wilson: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.

Dave Wilson: And I'm Dave Wilson, and you can find us at familylifetoday.com. This is FamilyLife Today. So we went to a counselor last year. Let's just tell the world about that. That moment. actually, I did as I was going through succession in my church, and I really needed to sit down and work through some things. But then this guy was so good, Greg Dempster, and he works with Christian leaders all around the country. I said, I got to get Ann. We got to bring her back.

Ann Wilson: Because she's super messed up.

Dave Wilson: No, I just thought that your wisdom and insight, we need help for our marriage. And one of the things that Greg drew out that I knew but never really put my finger on was how you felt unseen. Almost all of your life, especially in your family.

Ann Wilson: Yeah, I mean, I have a great family. My dad was great, but I also knew as the youngest of 4, I felt very unseen, unnoticed, and like my life didn't matter. And then you put sexual abuse on top of that, and you put not being able to measure up to the standards of the family and performance, and now you've got a problem. I did. I had a problem because I was filled with shame. I felt like, do I not matter? Does my life not matter? And will I ever be good enough?

Dave Wilson: Yeah, and then one of the things that hit me in that moment with Greg was on our 10-year anniversary when you said I've lost my feelings for you, you felt unseen by me.

Ann Wilson: Right, because I felt like everything else was more important to you than me.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, and so I think this shame that you just mentioned that you carry, I carry, I think a lot of us carry is something we need to understand and get victory over. So we got

Ann Wilson: Because Dave, I don't think a lot of us know when we're growing up,

Dave Wilson: Hm.

Ann Wilson: everything feels so normal. It's my life. It doesn't feel like it's broken. It feels like this is just my life. And so then you get older and you see your brokenness, you see how you're messed up, and suddenly you're starting to think, where did that come from? And so that shame piece that I think a lot of us feel and we carry, we don't know what to do with it.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, and we carry it into our marriages. If we don't do something with it, we're going to give it to our kids. And it's going to become a legacy. So we've got some help in the studio with us today. Noe Garcia, who was with us yesterday, is back to talk about, I, you didn't know this, you're going to talk about shame today.

Noe Garcia: No, I love it. Sounds good. Let's do it.

Dave Wilson: You're a pastor in Phoenix, you've got 4 kids and a wife and a busy life, but as you wrote in your book, Repurposed, you know, how God takes your mess and turns it into his message, as I was listening to you yesterday, you described a life where you carry shame. First chapter of your book's called Shame. So what is that, and how did it manifest in your life?

Noe Garcia: You know, think about shame, it's just, it paralyzes you. It makes you focus on the past, and you're stuck in the present because you're so focused on the past, and it blinds you to the future.

Dave Wilson: Now, how would you define it?

Noe Garcia: Man, I would define the shame is by this overwhelming emotional state that puts you in a position to where you are living in this false narrative. And here's what I mean by that. I don't mean the experiences were not real, but I mean it puts you in this emotional state, this paralyzing state where you're continuing to feed yourself these lies, you're continuing to be stuck to what is true, but you tell yourself you can never get out. You tell yourself it can never change. You tell yourself nobody will understand and accept it, and so you stay in this state, and shame lies to you. It tells you God can never forgive you and God can never use you.

Shame tells you that other people would never understand, they'll judge you and they'll look at you differently. It paralyzes you, and so I think it's produced from really traumatic circumstances, whether it's decisions that we have made or things that have been done to us. It's both. That's why it's so powerful, because it's true and it's real, but it doesn't show you the way out.

Ann Wilson: Well, I can remember as a 5-year-old going through sexual abuse and it happening again to someone in that I knew, and as a 5-year-old, after it happened multiple times, and this last time I remember thinking, it must be me. Something's wrong with me. And that was the switch, and that's what I think shame is, is suddenly it feels like there's something wrong with

Dave Wilson: It isn't

Ann Wilson: me.

Dave Wilson: It isn't I did something bad, I am bad. You know, it's like it's an identity. And you mentioned yesterday, as you came out of a home of abuse, you were abused, you're in drugs and alcohol, and at the same time, you know, thriving on a basketball court as a way out. But you described yesterday, you get to the point where that shame you were carrying, which is somewhat hidden, put you in a place where you almost tried to take your life. Is that what shame can do?

Noe Garcia: Yes. You know, for me, when you're sexually abused more than once as a child, your soul is shattered, and it doesn't know how to deal with that. You are covered with shame, and you feel like you have done something wrong, or you have done something that is, that has brought that on yourself. What did I do that opened the door for that? What's wrong with me? Then you start living with these emotions, and you start feeling like, okay, there's this shame on me because of what took place. How do I suppress that feeling of shame? So here's what I did. Drugs, alcohol, immorality, thinking that that would suppress the feeling of what took place when I was a child, but it only brought more shame because now I was disgusted with myself and embarrassed and shameful of what had been done to me, but then what I had done to try to cover it up.

I can tell myself, maybe this wasn't my fault. The other, I did this. You feel like if you say these things out loud, people may, you know, may look at you differently. They'll treat you differently. It changed your path of life, so you don't say anything.

Ann Wilson: Did you fall into depression?

Noe Garcia: I fell so deep into depression. You know, if you ever dealt with depression, you just begin to live in this false world where everything is negative, everything is bad, every thought, every circumstance. And then if you do have a moment that is a mountaintop moment, you think it's not going to last long. You're afraid of this moment. You're afraid to enjoy what's good because you don't think it's going to be there long. So you wire yourself not to get attached to the good things because good things don't last, is what I thought. And so when there you'd have these good moments, don't get used to this is not real life.

This joy, this happiness, this is abnormal. Brokenness is normal, so don't get used to the joy and happiness because brokenness is where you're used to living. So I taught myself and trained myself how to not get too attached to good things. Relationships, I would push people away before they got too close because I didn't want to get hurt again, because everyone I let in hurt me. So I taught myself to put people through trial runs. Let me see how long they will stay. Oh, they've stayed this long? Let me show them another piece of me, see if they'll go. And I began to unfold it. Oh, you're going to stay?

Let me show you some uglier stuff to see how long you'll stay. It's like, it's so messed up, but I did that. And then when they'd stay long enough, I thought, uh-oh, they love me and I love them. How do I break this off? Is it too late? What am I going to do now? So I would burn the bridge. I would destroy a relationship so that I had the power to destroy it before they destroyed me.

Ann Wilson: And then you got to the point where you thought, I don't even want to do this anymore.

Noe Garcia: Yeah, and so from 5 to 18, you live your life like that. You're tired of the broken relationships, you're tired of the shame, you're tired of being guilty, and I was guilty. And the shame has you running when nobody is chasing. It has you hiding when nobody's looking for you. And I got tired of running, and I got tired of hiding. So one night, I remember sitting there, not knowing if there was a God, but if there was, asking him, please, my soul is empty, and I'm tired, and I'm broken, and I'm 18. And I'm saying, I'm tired of life. I'm tired of pain. I'm tired of not having a father. There's no affirmation.

There's no security. There's nothing. And I ask him for a sign, and he doesn't give me a sign, so I sit there and start crying. So I thought, if God doesn't want me or love me, I have no chance in life. But there's no chance if God doesn't want me. And I thought he didn't want me. I thought he was like my earthly father. He just walked out and didn't need to come back. And so I thought, if God doesn't want me, if my earthly father doesn't want me, if there's all these broken relationships, what's the point of living through this? But thankfully, my- I didn't succeed. I thought I locked the door,

but my friend came in and found me, and he was like, "What are you doing?" And I said, "I don't know," and I just started crying. And, sat there, and I knew something had to change. I'd hit rock bottom, and I was so desperate. My soul was so hungry, and I didn't know how to feed it. At this point, I'm playing basketball at the Salvation Army, and for about 2 years when I'd go play basketball, they make you stay for a devotion, and I'd always make fun of the Christian guy speaking. I just thought they were so cheesy. It was the same story. That's great for you, but it doesn't match who I am. And then the guy stands up, just got out of prison.

Tattoos, I have tattoos, and I'm like, okay, you know God? How do you know God? And so I listened, and he's sharing about this Jesus who would forgive you of your sins and who would, he has my full attention because of the way he looks like me. I'm thinking, okay, if this is real, I want some of this then, because I know what I just tried to do and it didn't work. So I get up during the invitation and say, I don't know if you're real, but if you are, will you forgive me of my sins, and will you take my life, because I can't do anything with it? And I surrendered, and I confessed, and I've just...

And let me tell you what happened. It's like I came out of living in the dark out into the light. And the things that I cultivated in the dark began to have so much power over my life, because that's where the- I didn't know then, but that's where the enemy has his battles, is in the dark.

Ann Wilson: Oh, that's an interesting way that you put that, the things you were cultivating in the darkness. What do you mean by that?

Noe Garcia: Well, I gave it life.

Ann Wilson: Yeah, by feeding it.

Noe Garcia: By feeding it. I gave it life by feeding into this lie, whether it was thoughts or an action. I cultivated it, and it was so powerful, and it was so strong. It's like-

Ann Wilson: And it feels right to do it.

Noe Garcia: Oh, it feels nor- you don't know you're doing it.

Ann Wilson: Right, yeah.

Noe Garcia: It feels normal, and the enemy's having a field day, and he's producing this fruit out of it. He planted the seeds, and I'm watering it, and the fruit's being produced. But that's where he fights, is in the dark. When I came out into the light, it's like it lost its power, and all these things that had shame over my life no longer had this power over me. It's like, you lost. Here I am fully forgiven. And yes, that's my reality. Yes, I'm ashamed, but God being rich in mercy, you know, here I am. This is why even today, you know, I didn't start speaking to me being molested until I wrote the book.

Dave Wilson: Mm.

Ann Wilson: Wow.

Dave Wilson: So until a year ago, this was all pretty silent?

Noe Garcia: I didn't tell a lot of stuff.

Dave Wilson: Why did you decide to start telling it?

Noe Garcia: Here's why I didn't, because I didn't hear anybody else talking about that. I didn't never heard a pastor talk about this ever. I think unintentionally I was groomed to believe you don't share stuff like that. It's not OK. So I still lived in the dark, although I was free in that area of my life.

Ann Wilson: So, Noe, here you are now. You're a new creature in Christ. Old things have passed, new has come. And that happened to me, and I was thinking, now I am a new creature. And yet, after a while, I was still battling those same thoughts. I didn't realize, because I had cultivated them for years, I probably had neurological pathways that were deep, man. You know, I just go on that path every day. And so I was still feeding myself these lies of you're nothing, you're no good, you're not worthy, you'll never succeed, you'll never do anything worthwhile. And then I remember reading Romans 12:2, do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

How did that work out for you? Did it change overnight, or was it a process?

Noe Garcia: It's still a process.

Ann Wilson: Yeah, me too.

Noe Garcia: I know these truths. I preach them every Sunday. But I also know that we're broken people, and that we live in our flesh, and that we have to still deal with the scars of yesterday.

Dave Wilson: How do we break free? Because largely your book's based on Romans 8, verse 1, one of the most famous, powerful, there's no condemnation for those of us who are in Christ. If that's true, and you just said it, and we just said it, how do we get stuck not living a free life?

Noe Garcia: So here's what happens, and it happens to all of us. When you become a new creature in Christ, there's still the renewing of your mind, and what happens is when I have moments of, say I lose my temper with my kids, and it reminds me of my father, the enemy will tell me, even today, see, you're not really different. Look at you, you're just like your father, even today. And then the shame will overwhelm me, and I'm s- I have to battle the, am I different? Am I changed? Am I? So it happens today. So let me share with this. Romans chapter 8, verse 1, therefore there's now, now no condemnation for those that are in Christ.

The word condemnation is a legal term. Okay, so picture us in court. Your crime is brought before the judge. The judge is saying he is dismissed, he is forgiven, bang the gavel. So that term there is saying, look, now, today, your yesterday, today, and tomorrow are forgiven, which means the crime that you commit tomorrow doesn't have any power before the judge anymore because of what Christ has done. So here's what happens. When I sin, I have to retrain my thought by doing this, by taking my thoughts captive. If I don't take my thoughts captive, they will take me captive. And I will become a prisoner to my thoughts.

It's like the enemy can whisper one thing, and if I'm not careful, I would take the one word and write a novel out of it, of how I'm horrible. So I take this one word, let's say I lose my temper on my kids, and I'm telling myself, you're just like your father. Now I can take this and write a novel and make it true, or I can take this before the courts of heaven and ask, is this a true statement? So I take the thought captive, bring it before God, and if it doesn't hold up in his court, I have to fight to dismiss it. That takes a lot of work.

Dave Wilson: I was going to say

Noe Garcia: It takes intentionality.

Dave Wilson: That's exhausting because it's, we said yesterday, we have

Noe Garcia: Exhausting.

Dave Wilson: Thousands of thoughts a day,

Ann Wilson: But you

Dave Wilson: much of them negative, and you got to grab every one and take it captive.

Noe Garcia: It's exhausting, but the novel that we will write with the lies is devastating. So we have to pick.

Ann Wilson: I found that I would have those thoughts at night when I'd put my head on the pillow. You, Dave, you go right to sleep. I was like, how does he do that? But I would lay in bed at night and just go over and over my failures of that day. And I'll say this, the enemy, the accuser would go over those stories

Noe Garcia: That's right.

Ann Wilson: each day. And so I got into this habit of taking, because it's such a lie, and it doesn't do any good to go over what you can confess it, Jesus, I give it to you, I confess it, I'm free. So I picture myself handing the lie that I was believing, or maybe the sin I committed, it's forgiven, so I would hand it to him, and then I could fall asleep at night. And it's hard, though, not to entertain the lies.

Noe Garcia: It's hard.

Ann Wilson: Really hard.

Noe Garcia: It's hard. And this is what the enemy's been doing since Genesis 3, and the fall in the garden, what took place was they changed what they thought about God and what they thought about their themselves. It's why they hid, because they were filled with shame. And they were hiding from God. And so when we sin, what do we think? Oh man, how does he view me? Does he still love me? Is he going to use me? And then we view ourselves differently. We're horrible. We are defined by our failures, right? And it's just this ongoing battle, and it's a lifelong battle. I don't think it ever stops. I think we get better at the battle.

I don't think it ever stops.

Dave Wilson: I mean, are you living in victory now?

Noe Garcia: Um, there are days where I'm not. Man, there are days

Dave Wilson: And you're

Noe Garcia: where-

Dave Wilson: way too honest.

Noe Garcia: Really?

Dave Wilson: No, you're not. I love it.

Noe Garcia: Gosh.

Dave Wilson: No, I'm kidding. I love that because, like you, so often the church and the Christian community just hides, like Genesis 3, we put on the leaves, we hide, and it's rare that somebody comes, brings the darkness to the light, and the light sets you free. When you bring it out in the light, you become free, and that's why I love you're being that honest.

Noe Garcia: I'm a professional confessor. Honestly, there's people, you know, if I ever go see a counselor, they say, is there anything that you've never told anybody? I'm like, no, I can't live that way, man. No, I'm getting it all, probably too much at times, but I just, I want to be free. I don't want to have any secrets or dirty hands. I want to be free, not perfect, but free. And so, I still have tough days. I got to be honest. If I have a bad day and I send my anger and whatever it may be, man, I'm shaming myself the rest of that day. I wish I can tell you, no, I'm every day victory, but I'm not.

Dave Wilson: I remember the day I, the first year of our church, 1990, where I shared from the pulpit my struggle with pornography. And I remember my co-pastor, Steve, came over and said, you just changed this church. And I thought it was bad, like, oh, did I lose my job? Because, you know, especially then, he says, no, I think you just turned this church into a place where people will bring their full self and say,

Noe Garcia: That's right.

Dave Wilson: I got to be real here.

Noe Garcia: That's right.

Dave Wilson: Will I find acceptance here? Is there victory in Christ here in the middle of the struggle? That's what you're talking about, right?

Noe Garcia: 100%. This scares churches and scared our church. I'm not asking to lower the standard of holiness. I'm talking about opening the window of grace. Because for so long we had the standard of holiness without this window of grace. And but when you open the window of grace, I think it's easier to pursue the standard of holiness. That's what I'm trying to do. And so by me being vulnerable and transparent, I want to help people to know that we are imperfect beings, but it doesn't stop our pursuit of holiness. It's not one or the other, it can be both.

Ann Wilson: We've traveled around the world, and I'm always amazed that families around the world bring incredible joy and impact, but they also really struggle with the same issues.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, I mean, it's amazing. They all have the same issues. The wife doesn't like her husband, husband doesn't like his wife, they can't resolve conflict, you name it. They don't know how really to make Jesus the center of their marriage. It's the same things we struggle with.

Ann Wilson: Exactly, but families make a difference in the world. Like a family centered on Jesus impacts everyone.

Dave Wilson: That's why we do what we do. Every single day, we're trying to help marriages and families here, there, around the world, find Jesus as the center of their marriage and find hope, and then not just see their marriage transform, but transform their neighborhood. And let me invite you to join us in this mission. What's that mean? Pray for us. We need your prayers. But also, I don't know if you know this, but this ministry is a donor-supported ministry. In other words, people give financially to make this happen, and we would love to have you as a partner.

Ann Wilson: Because we can't exist without you, without monthly partners reaching families for Jesus.

Dave Wilson: So if you'd like to join, here's all you need to do. Go to familylifetoday.com, click on the donate button right there, and man, wouldn't it be a joy to be a partner with you? You can help change the world. And I think, you know, one of the things we're talking about is if you hold on to the secrets and the struggle, and it's just a hidden secret.

Ann Wilson: Yeah, if they're in the dark.

Dave Wilson: The shame stays. First of all, you confess to God, you find forgiveness, but when you tell a brother and you tell a sister, you know, James 5 says healing is where that happens. I think that involves shame, because then we can do work on the shame. As long as it's hidden, it's in the dark and the dark wins. Once it comes into the light, am I right? God's like,

Noe Garcia: 100%.

Dave Wilson: I can now take this and remove the shame, not instantaneously, but I can put you on a path of healing where you're going to find freedom.

Noe Garcia: It's Psalm 32. David says it. You know, when he kept silent, it says that he felt like God's hand was heavy upon him. He felt like his body was withering away day and night. He is miserable, but when he confessed it to the Lord, then he found this freedom. He found this refuge. So absolutely, it wears it. I believe shame and secrets, it'll wear you down, it'll tear you down, it'll age you. You will be exhausted. And so, man, I pray for my kids all the time, that I pray that if they have any secrets in their lives, that they can't sleep or eat until they confess it.

Ann Wilson: Oh yeah, we prayed that prayer a lot.

Noe Garcia: That's my prayer all the time. I pray, I pray over my church too. Because I know that the enemy wants to take you somewhere with this stuff, and so if you get it out to the light, he loses the battle.

Dave Wilson: So the word for the day is, here it is, take off the mask. Tell God, tell a brother if you're a man, tell a sister if you're a woman, tell a couple if you're a couple, and let God begin the healing process. That's, I mean, that's a beautiful story that you've shared. That's, that's the result. Today's your day to start.

Ann Wilson: Okay, you may not know this, but we want to hear from you.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, like literally hear you.

Ann Wilson: You can leave us a voice message with your questions, concerns, praise reports, or whatever. You know, maybe Dave said something that you totally disagree with.

Dave Wilson: No, why'd you have to pick on me? Maybe it's you said something.

Ann Wilson: Maybe, probably.

Dave Wilson: Or maybe it was inspiring. See? See, I was nice.

Ann Wilson: No, I know you're always nicer than me.

Dave Wilson: I don't think so. Or maybe you just want us to answer a question or explore a certain topic. Whatever you want to say, you get to call and say.

Ann Wilson: All you have to do is go to speakpipe.com/familylifetoday. Again, that's speakpipe.com/familylifetoday, or get the link in the show notes.

Dave Wilson: Again, it's speakpipe.com/familylifetoday.

Ann Wilson: I think this is a great topic with Noe Garcia. I'm really glad that we've had him on.

Dave Wilson: I mean, it gives you hope that God can take our junk, our messed up lives, and actually use it for him. In fact, that's what this book is all about. It's called Repurposed: How God Turns Your Mess into His Message. And you can get your copy by clicking the link in the show notes at familylifetoday.com. FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife, a crew ministry celebrating 50 years of helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.