FamilyLife Today®

Ann Wilson: Hey, we just wanted to give you a heads-up before you listen to this next program, because today's conversation on Family Life covers some pretty sensitive, but but really important subjects that may not be suitable for younger ears. So just use some discretion when listening to this next broadcast.

Dave Wilson: Hey, and let me add this. And if you do listen with your kids, talk about it after with them.

Ann Wilson: Yeah. Right. This is an important conversation to have with maybe older kids, just depending on what you're thinking. But we just wanted to give you a heads-up.

Joy Skarka: In college, I was walking through this on the Freedom Journey. Lived with five other girls, and we had our own place, and I had my own room, and I just got to the point where I was going to do anything to find healing. And so I took the doorknob off my door. My roommates were like, is the landlord going to be mad? What are you doing? All this. You know what happened? The roommates didn't know that I what I had walking through. I told them all. And two of them said they were struggling too.

Dave Wilson: Really?

Joy Skarka: And we became this little group of three disciplining each other, walking through this journey together. And now I mean, they're some of my best friends.

Dave Wilson: Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Dave Wilson.

Ann Wilson: And I'm Ann Wilson. You can find us at familylifetoday.com. This is Family Life Today. We're going to go on another journey today with Dr. Julie Slattery and Dr. Joy Skarka. We're actually talking about women and shame and porn.

Dave Wilson: That is not talked about, but we are going to go there, and it's going to be so helpful to you and maybe somebody you know.

Joy Skarka: So as a fifth grader, I first saw porn, which that's the average age is 11 years old.

Dave Wilson: Has it always been, Julie, that young, or is it gotten lower?

Ann Wilson: I believe it's gotten lower in terms of the norm. But yeah, you still will hear stories like I know you had shared.

Dave Wilson: Yeah. Mhm.

Ann Wilson: And on a previous broadcast, like three or four.

Dave Wilson: Mhm.

Joy Skarka: Oh wow.

Ann Wilson: So if you don't get your own healing and address some of your own questions, you're not prepared for what might come out.

Dave Wilson: When Ann and I got married, I knew about her sexual trauma. I had a perspective, and we were pretty new in Jesus, like less than two years, maybe a year and a half. So my thought was it's surpassed. The old's gone, the new's come. It's done. I was that naive. Like it may have happened 20 years ago, but it 's a new day, and it won't come into our marriage or literally into our marriage bed. Duh, I was so naive. So when it did, I was like, what? What are That was so long ago. How So I was so bad cuz I didn't want to walk through it with her.

I just wanted her to get over it and we'd be good, or I'd be good. It was very selfish. I I obviously learned. I actually read Wounded Hearts, one of the first things I read by Dan Allender. Dan was on our weekend remember speaker team, and he sort of handed it to me.

Ann Wilson: I think I handed it to you.

Dave Wilson: And there's a chapter for the spouse, and I'm like, oh I guess I'm the spouse. And I'm like, oh my goodness. I'm so sorry. How do we walk this? So did Zach was he able to walk with you? What did that look like? Cuz there's husbands listening.

Ann Wilson: Yeah.

Dave Wilson: They're like, what do I do? How do I How do I navigate?

Joy Skarka: I think I was just as shocked and surprised that it impacted us. So

Ann Wilson: Me too.

Joy Skarka: Yeah, cuz I just I have did all the things. I went to counseling, I read all the books, we ran all the premarital, pre-engagement counseling, we did all the things. So I was so shocked that it still impacted. But I mean, his love, um his support, his encouragement, his pausing, asking good questions, never tried to be right, just tried to be loving.

Ann Wilson: Mhm.

Joy Skarka: Those were the game changers, and kind of let me lead. Like if there was something that was triggering, I would just so much communication there of okay, we that we can't do that or let's pivot.

Ann Wilson: I can remember coming home from seminary because we were both in seminary, we took a counseling a block of some seminary classes and therapy and counseling. And that just stirred up the old things. And to me, I thought I had dealt with this. But abuse is very interesting because God goes in layers. I feel like he sometimes does it all at once, but many times as we go through life, like there're different things that bring it up of getting married. That brings up triggers. Having kids. I was that age when that happened. I remember coming home from class when we were taking these classes in counseling, crying every single night.

I thought I was over it, and I'm I don't cry very often. And that's when Dave was like, what is happening?

Dave Wilson: Third year of marriage. So we're we're newlyweds.

Ann Wilson: And as Dave walked through that with me, and that's what I think it's good for spouses to know. When we walk through something with our spouses, it creates an intimacy. And it's also the gospel being lived and played out. Like you see all of my woundedness, my brokenness, my trauma. And you're still choosing to love me. And that is the gospel. And I think I probably felt closer to you at that time

Dave Wilson: Yeah.

Ann Wilson: than any other time because it's miraculous that this person can love me.

Dave Wilson: Is that You know, as I'm thinking about naked and unashamed, Genesis 2:25, Adam and Eve leave, cleave, one flesh. I call it leave, cleave, weave. And they were naked and unashamed. I don't know if we understand. Help us understand that.

Ann Wilson: Well, let me read your quote before you go into it because you guys said you were not created for sex, you were created for intimacy.

Joy Skarka: And that's why I think porn is just a Band-Aid to the real issue underneath, the intimacy piece. You're trying to fix it by thinking you're fixing a sex piece, but no, you need that intimacy piece to be fully known and fully loved. That's the healing moment. Mhm. Like Ann, what you were talking about. Walking through that trauma together, that third year of marriage, that's when you felt fully known and fully loved.

Ann Wilson: Yeah, and I had never had that before ever.

Joy Skarka: Yeah, and it's so healing.

Ann Wilson: And you used the word layers.

Dave Wilson: Mhm.

Ann Wilson: There're layers of God revealing to even us, what is true about us. As we go through life and as we are asking the Holy Spirit to search us and to help us know God and to help us hear his voice, we learn more about ourselves. And that same thing is true in an intimate relationship. There're layers. And even when you're married for three years, you said that was a very profound moment. Yes, it was.

Dave Wilson: So true.

Ann Wilson: But you know, your listeners know there's a lot more to your story, layer after layer of conflict and that, you know, discovering a porn issue and

Dave Wilson: So many changes along the way with our bodies, with our emotions, with our thoughts, with our shame.

Ann Wilson: Yes, yeah.

Dave Wilson: It's a constant journey.

Ann Wilson: So you have the picture of what God created sexual intimacy to be like where you literally have no clothes, there's nowhere to hide. But what a couple is meant to work through is can you get there emotionally where you've got nothing to hide. And in reality, when we first get married, we have layers of oh I can never tell him about this and I don't want him to see this part of me and I have to kind of fudge the truth here and I'm going to be defensive if you ever ask me about this.

Dave Wilson: Yeah.

Ann Wilson: And it's the journey of pushing into all of those defenses and allowing all those barriers over time to fall so that you truly do know everything about each other. And you forged an an intimate knowing that after you've been married for a while, it 's like that's what it's like.

Dave Wilson: Yeah.

Ann Wilson: Fully known, fully loved.

Dave Wilson: Joy, what would it have been like? Like I 'm thinking there're probably listeners that have done this if you had never told your husband or he had never read anything or you hadn't written anything, what would you have been like in your marriage relationship had you never talked about that and it was still a secret?

Joy Skarka: Yeah, and what a sad sad marriage that would have been. I wouldn't have been able to feel like I could be my full self and be fully known, and you'd always be questioning the lies of oh does he really love me? Oh if he knew that, maybe he wouldn't love me then. And oh yeah, that sounds like torture being in that bad spot.

Ann Wilson: Because I have people that will say to me like I will never tell him or I'll have women say if he has a problem with porn, I don't want to know. I understand. Like who wants to know that? Nobody.

Joy Skarka: Right. It's scary, but it's worth it to feel that intimate knowing.

Ann Wilson: That's it.

Joy Skarka: Mhm.

Ann Wilson: Like I can look at Dave and think I know everything.

Dave Wilson: And it's ugly.

Ann Wilson: And I still love him.

Joy Skarka: Mhm.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, and I feel that.

Ann Wilson: So what would you say to listeners that maybe have secrets? What would you both say to them?

Joy Skarka: Well, even talking to a single woman, cuz we get so many women who fill this group for our book. Most of them are single who sign up for that group, and I would say to them they're even missing out on that community element.

Ann Wilson: What do you mean?

Joy Skarka: Finding a friend that fully knows them and fully loves them because they're even afraid to tell their girlfriends these their struggles.

Dave Wilson: How how many women struggle with porn? I know it's higher for men,

Joy Skarka: Mhm.

Dave Wilson: but it's probably higher than we think for women. Do you know?

Joy Skarka: Well, about a third of the visitors to adult sites are women.

Ann Wilson: That's a lot.

Dave Wilson: Mhm.

Joy Skarka: That's a lot.

Ann Wilson: And that's not even taking into account

Dave Wilson: Yeah.

Ann Wilson: the women who are reading pornographic novels. You know, that's that's become a real thing, spicy books. That's what they call them nowadays.

Dave Wilson: Spicy books.

Joy Skarka: And a lot of TV shows that are basically soft porn.

Ann Wilson: Yeah.

Joy Skarka: That we have watch parties as Christians and all get together and eat snacks, and we're watching these scenes and we think it's okay.

Ann Wilson: Wow.

Joy Skarka: But you don't know what the other girls sitting around this couch are struggling with.

Ann Wilson: Well, let me ask you. I had somebody come up to me at a conference and she said, hey, my 15 year old daughter just said something when we had lunch today, and I don't know how to get my head around it. I'm like, oh okay. What what did she say? She said she was in a group of girls, and she said this girl said in the group nonchalantly, I've never masturbated. And the rest of the group said, are you kidding? That's all we do. Is this happening among young women now that this is a norm?

Joy Skarka: Mhm.

Ann Wilson: It is.

Joy Skarka: Oh yeah.

Ann Wilson: How can a mom talk about this in the early years with their daughters?

Dave Wilson: What's the early years?

Ann Wilson: I don't know. Like when does it start?

Dave Wilson: I think it probably starts nowadays, you know, in the toddler preschool years where we're talking about our bodies and the purpose of our bodies and why God gave us certain parts of our bodies and naming those parts and you know, one thing that a lot of people don't want to talk about publicly, but I get women coming up and asking me all the time is every time I take off my my kid's diaper, their hand goes immediately to their genitals.

Ann Wilson: Yes. Yeah.

Dave Wilson: So I think it's even earlier, even preverbal, in terms of what are we teaching our kids about the value of their bodies, and there's a balance there. You know, you certainly don't want to shame where it's like oh that part of your body is dirty, you're bad or don't touch that. But you also want to teach them even at young ages that there's something unique and special about the parts of our bodies that we don't show everyone. And so there's healthy conversations about privacy and inappropriate touch and those sort of things that are helpful even at those very young ages.

But you want even a child or a preschooler to know that there's nothing wrong with their bodies. So I think it starts at that very basic level, but then as they get older, again talking about the uniqueness of male and female, talking about the fact that God did create us as sexual people, and talking about marriage, how babies are made, and just that it's normal to be curious, it's normal. So it's like setting that groundwork and then also having very open conversations, providing an environment where your kid can come ask questions.

Ann Wilson: It's good.

Joy Skarka: Yeah, we see a lot of women come in our groups too where there's a lot of child on child touch, and they have to work through that.

Ann Wilson: Our number one viewed blog every year is is masturbation a sin.

Dave Wilson: What did you what did you say?

Ann Wilson: So first of all, we have to say that it's not mentioned in the Bible. So then we have to look at all right, what principles do we see in the Bible that can apply to that question? And there're a few really important principles. So one of them would be you shouldn't lust. Jesus said this clearly in Matthew chapter five that you say committing adultery is wrong. Well, if you're looking at a woman lustfully, you're committing adultery in your heart. And that would go for looking at men as well. And so it's what's going on in your mind.

Are you feeding those kinds of thoughts? Also the scripture tells us, Paul tells us that nothing should master us. No no pun intended here, but you should not be addicted to anything. Then I think it's really important to pivot and ask the question, what am I using this for? What's the deeper need that I need to address?

Dave Wilson: Great questions.

Ann Wilson: And we also have to talk about the fact that God created sex and the expression of our sexuality to be something that is shared within a marriage covenant between a husband and wife. And I think what is often more helpful for people is to say don't think of this just as a sin against you, but as a maturity issue. When I'm talking about this issue, I like to talk about it in terms of how do we mature out of it because it's an immature expression of our sexuality.

Dave Wilson: You've had a lot of people go through your course, and they've probably been brought into some freedom.

Ann Wilson: It's so exciting. What are some of the things that they've said, some of the women especially if they've gone through this? What have been some of the things that you've heard?

Joy Skarka: So many cool testimonies where like mothers and daughters have gone through it together. I love that. That's been really fun. And I love We have a woman now who's about to lead a a group this summer. She was in my group, one of our pilot studies, and now she 's about to lead a study this summer. So that's been really cool to see God just work through their lives, and now they 're able to lead groups.

Ann Wilson: Wow.

Dave Wilson: You know, I'm almost positive that our listeners have no idea how important they are to our program.

Ann Wilson: I think you're right.

Dave Wilson: Our prayer partners and especially our financial partners, people who donate financially to Family Life Today make this program actually happen.

Ann Wilson: And your monthly gift really is changing the hearts and lives of families not only here, but around the world.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, we just want to say we would love for you to join and be a partner with us. You make this program happen. You are literally changing the world. So like I'm going to make sure that other people, even my neighbors down the streets, lives are changed because of this program. And if you'd like to jump in and join us and become a partner, all you have to do is go to familylifetoday.com and click on the donate button right there, and you can start joining today. We would love to have you as a partner with us to change the world for Jesus.

Ann Wilson: Join us.

Dave Wilson: All right, we got to get to the doorknob. I mean, I've heard many stories about resisting and overcoming. I've never heard of somebody going this radical. One time I was on a Detroit Lions road trip and I was going to go out to dinner with one of our guys. He's very well known now as a broadcaster. I won't say his name. He wouldn't mind it. But I go down to his room cuz we all have our own rooms on the hotel. And I knock on the door and nobody answers, and I realize it's open. He like those lock thing, he left it.

So I walk in and I'm like, hey dude. There's nobody there. He's not there, and I'm like hey You know, so I I checked everywhere. And so and you don't know me very well, but I decided well, if he's not here, I'm going to TP his room. So I totally papered his whole room. I just ran it all the way around the room. And then I found out he's in the lobby waiting for me to go to dinner. And I go down and I go, dude, your door was wide open. He goes, oh yeah, I never lock my door on road trips.

Joy Skarka: Mhm.

Dave Wilson: I'm like, why not? He goes, I don't want to struggle with porn.

Joy Skarka: Mhm.

Dave Wilson: I want any teammate to walk in at any time. And that helps. I'm like, way to go.

Joy Skarka: Yeah.

Dave Wilson: But yours is more radical than that.

Joy Skarka: Yeah, that's very similar. Yeah, so in college, I was walking through this on the Freedom Journey. Lived with five other girls and we had our own place and I had my own room and I just got to the point where I was going to do anything to find healing. And so I took the doorknob off my door.

Dave Wilson: I mean, you got a doorknob, and you went out and said

Joy Skarka: I got a doorknob. Took it off. My roommates were like, is the landlord going to be mad? What are you doing? All this. But you know what happened? The roommates didn't know that I what I had walking through. I told them all. And two of them said they were struggling too.

Dave Wilson: Really?

Joy Skarka: And we became this little group of three disciplining each other, walking through this journey together. And now I mean, they're some of my best friends.

Ann Wilson: I love that.

Joy Skarka: Mhm.

Ann Wilson: And I mean, to give you an idea of what's in this eight week study. So the first week is the problem of porn. We've talked about that a little bit. Can God's love really be enough? That's a good one. A new vision for sexual wholeness. Pursuing sexual integrity. And that's where your doorknob story comes in. Like you're fighting to make that happen. You'll do anything to get free from that. Ditching lies and embracing truth. Stop trying so hard. Getting unstuck from shame and when your story becomes a weapon.

Joy Skarka: Mhm.

Ann Wilson: What's that?

Joy Skarka: And you know what, Ann, you read all those titles and this book is still relevant to my life now. As a widow walking through sexual integrity, I can take all these principles and apply them to where I'm at now. It's cool how God just redeems all of it. And it kind of goes back to the last chapter of the book where for me, I found healing and purpose when I was able to use my story and talk about it to help other women because no one was talking about it or some people were, not enough um to talk for women.

And so I feel like God's going to do that again. It's what he does in my life, is my theme. He just uses my stories and the pain I've walked through and my brokenness to help other people. So that's how he redeems in my life. And in the book, we encourage other women. I use your story for his glory. And he can redeem your story and help set other women free through it.

Ann Wilson: And I would add to that too. Don't be surprised if there's some pushback to it because I think Satan hates it when we bring our stuff into the light. I've shared this here before, but the first time I ever shared my story of abuse on a stage at church, it was very brief, but it was a story of redemption, of how God he's healed, he's still healing. And I had a woman who was older who came up to me and said, you glorified Satan today. And nothing could have crushed me more than that. And I hid in my house.

Like I will never talk about that again. And my friend who knew me really well, she knew that when I was hiding, I would stay in the house and not talk to anybody. She's She's texting her.

Dave Wilson: She's calling her, she's texting her.

Ann Wilson: She comes to my house and knocks on the door and just, I know you're hiding. I know what's happening. And so

Dave Wilson: Thank God for

Ann Wilson: Michelle.

Dave Wilson: For for community.

Ann Wilson: Yeah.

Dave Wilson: Yeah.

Ann Wilson: But I realized she's like, you think that that lady's right? No. God wants you to share your story. That was you glorified him today. You're going to set people free by sharing your story. And man, I've realized And this is before the Me Too movement, nobody was sharing their stuff. I am so glad and my sister has gone through sexual abuse, and we both said one of the greatest things, acts of courage that we have ever, as you said, Dave, ever accomplished was sharing our stories. My sister even said I would go through it again to set other people free.

That's how rich it is to see other people come out of their shame and walk in freedom in Christ. What are some steps we can take if somebody's listening and some things are triggering right now? What would you say to them?

Joy Skarka: Yeah, I would just encourage them to have some hope that freedom is possible cuz it's so easy to feel hopeless and to feel alone, to help them realize they're not alone in this. There're so many women who have journeyed before them and freedom is possible on the other side.

Dave Wilson: Hey, last question. I got to add this. And maybe you've already said it, but if you're a person who has found freedom and you've you've had victory in this area for let's say months, maybe even years, and then cuz this is so often you fall back, what do you say to that woman?

Joy Skarka: The first two months after my husband's death, I I called Julie. I said, I don't think I'm going to survive this, Julie. You should just fire me now. So step one, have a great mentor like Julie in the wings, ready for when trials hit. And step two, I remember Julie just said, you take it day by day, decision by decision, step by step. And I wish I could see me now back then. You know, I mean, I still far to go. But if I could have see where I'm at today and have that hope when I was one month, two month post loss, it would have been a little easier.

So

Ann Wilson: Hey Joy, I want to pray for you when we're done and we get off the air. But I'm wondering if you would pray for our listeners.

Joy Skarka: I'd love to. Lord God, we thank you that we get to have this conversation. And I just pray for the men and women listening, but especially my sisters who just feel so alone and are just stuck in shame, God, and don't believe that your love your intimate love is enough for them. God, I've been there, and it is a tough spot. And so I just pray that you would speak to them, God, you would meet them in their time with you and just help them fully believe that you are enough no matter what their circumstances are, no matter what happens in their life, that your love is enough for them, God.

And we just pray you'd give them courage, courage to share their story with a safe, trusted Christian woman and that she would respond well in love. And we just pray you'd meet them in that conversation, God. And we thank you for the sisters who have gone before us and are on this journey um speaking light into this conversation. We love you so much. Amen.

Ann Wilson: Man, this has been so good and rich. Their book is called Her Freedom Journey, a guide out of porn and shame to authentic intimacy by doctors Julie Slattery and Joy Skarka.

Dave Wilson: And you can go to familylifetoday.com and click on the link in the show notes and get this book.

Ann Wilson: We want to hear from you. You can leave us a voice message with your questions, concerns, praise reports, or whatever. All you have to do is go to speakpipe.com/familylifetoday. Again, that's speakpipe.com/familylifetoday or get the link in the show notes.

Dave Wilson: Family Life Today is a donor supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry, celebrating 50 years of helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.