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Jerrad Lopes: I just think people are willing to give a lot of grace to genuine humility. That's spiritual leadership, isn't it? Just humble men. Just be humble. "I don't know what I'm doing. I'm trying. I'm sorry. I need to get this right."

I say that to my six-year-old. One day she's going to come to the decision of, "Do I want to follow Jesus?" I have sin in my life. I hope that she says, "Well, I've seen my daddy repent. I've seen my daddy need a heart change, and so do I." And that I would model not all the spiritual disciplines, but model for her what it looks like to say, "I need Jesus desperately."

Ann Wilson: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.

Dave Wilson: And I'm Dave Wilson, and you can find us at familylifetoday.com. This is FamilyLife Today. It's Friday Five.

Ann Wilson: I like Friday Five.

Dave Wilson: Friday Five has become one of my favorite things to do, and today we get to talk about dads and men and five amazing things we're going to talk about. We've got to introduce our guest, though. We've got Jerrad Lopes from Dad Tired with us again. Welcome back to FamilyLife Today.

Jerrad Lopes: Always good to be with you guys. Thanks for having me.

Ann Wilson: We've had Jerrad on for the last couple of days and it's been really good. The book that we've been talking about with him is called *The Dad Tired Q&A Mixtape*.

Dave Wilson: If you haven't listened the last two days, go back and listen. And if you're a man, I would encourage you, jump in the Dad Tired community. How do they do that?

Jerrad Lopes: dadtired.com.

Dave Wilson: Hopefully you've got five surprising things. Here's the one I thought of, and it comes from one of my sons saying this to us a few years back. He said, "I wish you had asked me this question." I'm like, "Yeah, what is it?" "How is your heart?"

In other words, how are you doing? Get to a soul-to-soul level conversation. And I remember when he said that, I was like, "Really? I didn't do that?" He's like, "No, you were easily more superficial." Like, "We're good, right? We're good. I've given you skills," rather than, "How are you doing? Let's talk." And that's vulnerable, and I think scary for men sometimes.

Jerrad Lopes: Were you defensive, or were you able to really hear him?

Ann Wilson: He's so good in not being defensive. He's really great. But let me add this: the thing I've loved the most and I've admired that you've done is after that conversation with them, because a couple of them said that to you, you went to get help through a counselor. And that is huge, especially at your age, like, "I'm still learning. I still need to get better at this."

Jerrad Lopes: I'll just say as an outside perspective—and I'm about the age of your son—that is so powerful. To hear that you heard that and you're like, "I'm willing to receive it humbly and see this is still an area of my life I want Jesus to change." That's really cool.

Actually, on my list here, we'll say it's number two, but it could easily be a part B to that same thing because I was going to say dads need to say, "What were you feeling?" or "What are you feeling?" And that's really the exact same thing that you were just talking about, which is essentially, I'm trying to get better at this as a dad, but not just parent their behavior, but really parent their heart.

And that's what your son was talking about—get after my heart, not just my behavior. And I'll say for me as a dad, the reason it is easier for me to parent behavior is because it's faster. I can get them to comply quickly. "You're grounded, you're in trouble, you're in timeout," whatever it is, and then just stops the behavior, but honestly, it just skips the whole heart shaping when I do that.

And I have to stop for a minute and realize that's not what God does to me. He doesn't just say, "Knock it off," but he slows down enough to parent my heart. He's sanctifying me, he's making me more holy, and to do that, he has to slow down. He's long-suffering. And so I want to do that with my kids. We need more dads who will say not just "What did you do?" but "Why did you do it? What are you feeling? What's going on deep within your heart that needs some shaping and some gospel truth?"

Dave Wilson: Now, that's huge as they become teenagers. And a lot of us as dads, we get mad and we lay down a law like, "You're not going to that movie." And of course, there needs to be those kind of discussions, but to ask the question you're saying is, "Okay, what is going on in their heart or their soul that makes them want to do behaviors that they've been taught their whole life are out of bounds?" That's a great question.

Ann Wilson: I remember even as a mom, I'm trying to get to that too. I'm trying to get to their heart. I've shared this before, but there was one point where our eight and eleven-year-old, they were just hitting each other, screaming, so I walk in on that. And the younger brother is so mad. He wants to punch his brother.

I'm pulling him away and I said, "Tell us why you're so mad." He said, "I'm so mad, I'm so mad!" And I said, "But go further, why are you so mad? Try to get it out, what's wrong?" And I was amazed that he could verbalize. He said, "I'm mad at you because every time your friends come over and my friends come over, you embarrass me and make fun of me."

For him to even say that, instead of just, "I'm going to hit you and punch you," for him to be able to verbalize that was pretty extraordinary for an eight-year-old. And I said, "So you're feeling rejected." And then it came down to, and now he's crying, he said, "I feel like you don't even love me or like me anymore." I'm like, "This is amazing," that he could verbalize it.

And so then I had him say, "And what do you need from your brother?" And this was the most classic: he's crying, this little eight-year-old, he said, "I just need you to hug me sometimes." The eleven-year-old is getting a little older, so he's like, "Well..." And then the younger brother again says, "And sometimes I just need you to give me a kiss before I go to bed." And now I'm trying to not laugh.

But the older brother says, "I'm not going to kiss you, but I will hug you once in a while." And then he said, "And I'm sorry I've made you feel so bad." That took a long time to get all of that out. It would have been easier just to separate them, to give them a timeout or whatever, but I love that: get to their hearts.

Jerrad Lopes: Well, you know, all I could think of as you were sharing that story, which was so amazing, was—and you guys know this better than I do—but you put that same language in marriage. Men are just—we're just mad. But it's like, can you get past the "mad" and get back to the first emotion you're feeling, not the second or third?

And could a husband and wife talk like that? "I actually feel rejected, and what I just need is a hug." How many marriages would be healthier? But here's what I would say number three is: I have what dads need to say is "say no." And what I mean by that is what you did with your kids—you had to slow down.

You could have just said, "If you punch him, you're in trouble," because I've got to fold the laundry and do the dishes and do a million other things. But you said no to other things so that you could be more intentional to say yes to raising disciples in that moment. And so we have to say no to the fantasy football team or the game or pausing the TV or whatever other things need to get done to say yes to my primary role here—disciple maker. And so I have to slow down, say no to everything else so I can say yes to the people, the little disciples that God has put right in front of me.

Dave Wilson: And we won't do it perfectly every time, for sure, because we're tired. Well, I've said this before as well, but when we started our church, both of the founders were young dads with young kids and we made a decision because our wives said, "We need you home at night." So we stood on a stage, I remember we did this together.

I think we were 32 or 33, the church was just starting, but it was growing fast and it was getting pretty chaotic and hectic and a lot of meetings. And we said, "Hey, we just want to let you know if you need to meet with us and it's really important, we'll meet with you in the morning, not at night." Here's why: we asked our wives which one do you really want us at home, and both of the wives said, "If you could be there at dinner and putting in baths and getting in the Bible and then putting to bed..."

So we said, "Okay." And so we both thought they're going to applaud this, they're going to be like, "Way to go, way to be dads and husbands!" We heard the opposite. It was like, "What do you mean? You're my pastor. I can't meet with you at five in the morning, six in the morning, I have to meet you at night." And we're like, "Well, we're not going to do it." I mean, it really was not applauded, but I'll tell you this: thirty, forty years later, it was the best decision we ever made to say no to people that mattered and we were supposed to be disciple-making, but the most important disciples we'll ever make are sleeping right down the hall in your house every night.

Jerrad Lopes: And I imagine the only reason that you had the confidence to say no when it was hard is because you really knew what you were saying yes to. And guys just have to know what they're saying yes to. Otherwise, your boss is going to convince you to say yes to him, your work is, your fantasy football team—I know I keep picking on fantasy football players, but I'm saying all the things in my life that try to suck time from me. Life will convince you, people will convince you you should really say yes to this. But you just have to know this is what God's called me to say yes to, and I'll say no to everything else.

Ann Wilson: Guys, what would you say to a man that's just like, "Hey, my business is falling apart, finances are falling apart, I have to be there. I can't say no to this thing in my life right now. How do I say no to this?"

Dave Wilson: I mean, that's hard. I feel it. I would not make light of, "Oh, yeah, just an easy..." That's a hard, hard call. But I think what Jerrad just said, it comes back to what matters, what are your priorities. Make the hard call. And in some ways, it's a trust part too, to say, "I'm going to do the right thing that God's called me to do and trust him for the other part of it." I mean, there's other ways to work different hours and different ways to make money and maybe you've got to be creative that way, but I think at the end of the day, you've got to make the hard call.

Jerrad Lopes: Leila and I said before we had kids, first year of marriage, we said we would rather live in an RV and be together trying to raise kids with a small budget than to be working to pay for all the stuff and be away from each other and away from the kids. And so I know a lot of guys might say, "Well, I can't do that because my wife wants all these things." So this is a decision you have to make together as a couple. What kind of lifestyle are we actually going for? What's our value of time here versus a dollar amount? Are we willing to cut some budget stuff in order to spend more time together?

Dave Wilson: As Dad Tired grows, have you had to make some hard calls?

Jerrad Lopes: Absolutely, yeah. I'm traveling every week, but we homeschool our kids and I'm with them five days out of the week. So Monday to Friday, and then I usually take the last flight out that I can on Friday, speak on Saturday, I say no now when people ask me to speak on Sundays for almost every time, so that I can go take my kids to church on Sundays. I want to be home on Sunday so I can go to church with them.

Ann Wilson: I'll answer that question as a woman. I know that there are some seasons where it's going to be really hard for Dave to be at home. If something's going on at the church or there's something really important...

Dave Wilson: It's called football season.

Ann Wilson: But if he comes to me and he says, "Hey, this is going to be a rough season. How can I make some deposits into our family that would be really helpful for you because I know that I'm not going to be home as much?" So we know that this is going to be a season, I know he's asked me that question—what are the deposits that I can make that are really helpful to you during this time and also to the kids?

But then here's the key: the season can't just keep going because as a woman, I lock in, like, "All right, I'm going to do this for the season." And then when the season's up, if it doesn't change, that's when my heart gets, "Hey, what happened to the season?"

Dave Wilson: You get resentful. Every wife would.

Ann Wilson: And so one season turns into another season to another season, and I think that would be easy because you slip into this new lifestyle and this new schedule. But I think that helps a wife—here's the season, here's what it looks like, just tell me what I can do to help you in the season. That helped us a lot.

Dave Wilson: It made me think of this—and Jerrad, you're stepping into this sort of season—I think another big "no" for families is how many sports and extracurricular activities are we going to allow our family to get in? Because it will suck your life out. You're just on ball fields and concerts. And again, that's all great stuff, but I think the best families make hard calls to say, "We're not going to do everything. We're going to decide what to do, right?"

Jerrad Lopes: People are going to be upset when they hear you just say that. This is the idol of America and they're going to be upset. And my response would be: why are you upset? Try to pause for a moment and try to really figure out why did that make me feel uncomfortable when you said that? And usually when that happens, when somebody's stepping on our toes, our chest gets tight and you're like, "I want to disagree with you." We're probably getting in the space of idolatry, like you just said. It's an idol. Don't mess with my stuff.

And so, yeah, sports have become a huge thing. Listen, my son is a really talented athlete and I don't care if he never plays a single pro or college sport in his life, but I do care if he loves Jesus and turns out to be a man that leads his family well. So you just have to say no to some stuff.

Ann Wilson: Here's one of the things I'm going to add. My dad didn't spend a whole lot of time with me growing up, my earlier years, because I had older brothers, I was the youngest of four. But I hit this age where my dad started inviting me to go out to dinner because my uncle had cancer, my mom was gone, and so my dad said, "Hey, I'd like to just have dinner with you." And it was once a week.

Dave Wilson: Your high school?

Ann Wilson: I was in high school. And I didn't even know him. This was so awkward. But one of the things my dad did that I loved is he just started asking me questions. And I think this is a great thing for parents to do and he would say things like, "Tell me about what's making you happy right now? What's making you sad right now? Tell me the names of your friends and tell me all about them and why do you like them?"

I was only fifteen, sixteen years old and I can't even tell you what that meant to me, that my dad would take an interest, that he would ask me questions about my friends. And here's the other thing that he did that was amazing along with that: he would then ask me this, "What do you think I should do?" I'm in high school, I don't know anything! And he goes, "Ann, I have this problem going on at work. What do you think I should do?"

Dave, you know this—my dad would make us feel so important that he's asking our opinion on something.

Dave Wilson: When we got married, that was one of the first things I noticed. I said to Ann, "He treats me like I'm an adult. He asks my opinion and he's not just being nice, he really thinks I have thoughts." And I remember most adults don't treat me like that, but your dad, it's man-to-man, adult-to-adult. "I want your wisdom, give it to me." And I'm like, "Wow, I feel like a man." That's unique and I think that's important for us to do to our kids as they raise up to that age—make them feel like, "You're not just a teenager anymore, you are an adult."

Ann Wilson: And one of the things I love about my dad, too, is he was always willing to change and see his shortcomings. He knows that he was not great, he was not there when I was younger, but he was always changing even to the point of when he died. I remember him apologizing to me about that at 92 years old. "Ann, I'm really sorry I wasn't there when you were growing up, just didn't take an interest and that was so wrong of me." Don't you love that we can still change, that we can still repent and apologize? And I didn't think, "Well, it's too late now." I just thought, "That is the sweetest thing, Dad," that he would do that.

Jerrad Lopes: I just think people are willing to give a lot of grace to genuine humility. That's it. And that's spiritual leadership, isn't it? Just humble men. For our audience for Dad Tired, we're just telling them: just be humble. "I don't know what I'm doing. I'm trying. I'm sorry. I need to get this right." I mean, what how we started with your son coming to you and just saying, "Okay, I hear you and I'm going to do what I can to fix this." That's really cool.

Actually, that leads me to the fifth one here, which is dads need to say "I'm sorry." And I know anyone would say that, you could probably go to any parenting conference and they'd be like, "You should apologize to your kids, that's a good moral thing to do." But I think when we apologize to our kids as Christians, what we're doing is we're modeling for our kids: every single person in this house needs Jesus.

Everyone, including dad. So when I go to my kids, it's not just the right thing to say, "Oh, I'm sorry, will you forgive me?" but it's, "Baby, little girl, son, daughter, I've messed this up and I've had to ask God to forgive me for this and I'm asking him to take that part of my heart and to change it and make it new."

Then, I say that to my six-year-old, one day she's going to come to the decision of, "Do I want to follow Jesus?" I have sin in my life and I hope that she says, "Well, I've seen my daddy repent. I've seen my daddy need a heart change, and so do I." And that I would model not all the spiritual disciplines, but model for her what it looks like to say, "I need Jesus desperately to come and make me a new man." So more dads to say, "I'm sorry."

Dave Wilson: And I think sometimes we need clarification, like this is not "I'm sorry": if you say, "I'm sorry that you feel this way because I did this." That is putting it on them. "I'm sorry" that's repentance is, "I'm sorry what I did or said was wrong and I'm owning it." I've been on the other side and like, "I feel like this is on me." No, this is... yeah, that's a biggie.

Ann Wilson: That's really good. One of the things I thought too as you were talking about that, Jerrad, was I think it's good to apologize to our kids sometimes if they're in the midst of maybe an argument with our wife or our husband. The way we talked to them, of even saying to the kids, "Hey, guys, I just want you to know I had to apologize to Mom for the way I talked to her. How I was talking to her or the tone or what I said was wrong. It was sin, honestly, and I want you to know I was wrong and I shouldn't have talked to your mom like that and I hope you guys can forgive me because I had to ask Mom to forgive me." It's just good to see like, "Oh, Mom and Dad, their marriage isn't perfect, but they're apologizing to each other," and as a kid, that makes you feel secure and it's also modeling to them what that looks like even as they get married.

Dave Wilson: We're out of time, but I got one more. And it's the most obvious statement that needs to be said, but I'm telling you, there were times I found it was hard to say, and it's three words: "I love you." I mean, of course you're going to say that. "What should you say to your kids?" I never heard Dad say it. It almost felt like, "They know it. I'm living in such a way that I'm proving it every day."

But men, guys, if you haven't said "I love you" to your wife lately, it means a lot, doesn't it? And if you haven't looked your son or daughter in the eye, especially as they're six and then they're sixteen, sometimes as they get older as a man I'm like, "This is another man, I'm not going to..." It means the world for their dad to say, "I just want to look you in the eye and say I haven't said this in a while and I mean this—I love you. You are a good man, you're a good daughter, I just want to make sure you know I love you." That's simple, obvious, but I think there might be a dad today goes, "You know what, that was for me. I need to make sure my daughter, my son, my wife has heard me say that today."

Ann Wilson: Before we keep going, let me just say this to the listener: every single day, families around the world are facing real struggles and FamilyLife is here with gospel-centered help and hope. And when you become a FamilyLife partner, your monthly support fuels this work.

Dave Wilson: And with your monthly gift, you'll become a part of a community that receives insider updates, which is pretty amazing. Who doesn't want to be a part of an insider community? You also get invitations to special events and more because together, we're helping families really grow stronger in Christ. So join us. Just go to familylifetoday.com and tap the donate button at the top of the page.

Here's one thing we shouldn't say as a dad or a mom: "I'll do that tomorrow." How about tomorrow? I mean, it's easy to say and there are times that you need to wait a day, but if you can do it today, do it today. Don't procrastinate. You may not get tomorrow.

I remember Joe Stowell speaking at a Promise Keepers thirty years ago. He was a pastor in Detroit, I knew Joe, had a great church, and he said he had a yard in Highland Park—I remember his house—and he said, "I did my own yard because I wanted it to be perfect. I was into my yard." And he said, "Every time I drove in my street, I looked at my yard and I'd go, 'It's the best one on the block because I care about it and I take care of it.'"

And he said, "I had three sons, and often I'd be out working in the yard and they'd say, 'Hey, Dad, can we like play hoop or can we...' and I'd be like, 'Yeah, later, I'll... I've got to work on the yard.'" And he goes, "We actually got a basketball hoop, we put it in there, and my youngest son every day would say, 'Dad, let's shoot hoop,' and I'd be like, 'Maybe later, how about tomorrow? I've got to work on the yard.'"

He goes, "I did a funeral for a teenage boy in my church and I'm driving back home and I turn onto my street and I see the hoop." And he goes, "It was like this symbol of misplaced priorities." And he goes, "As I got closer to my house, I looked at my yard and I said, 'Yep, it's the best yard on the block, and who really cares?'"

He goes, "The brevity of life was staring me in the face." He goes, "I literally walked upstairs, went to my son's room, he was doing his homework. I said, 'Son, let's shoot some hoops,' and he turns and he goes, 'Dad, I've got a lot of homework, how about tomorrow?'" And he goes, "I remember I closed the door and I'm walking down the hall and I said to myself, 'I missed it. I missed it. I had a window and my yard was more important.'" And I've never forgotten that story over thirty years because I'm like, "Don't miss the window." Don't put off tomorrow what you can do today, especially as a dad. Seize the moment, make a memory.

Ann Wilson: And Dave, let's just add: it's never too late to start. It's never too late.

Dave Wilson: Okay, that was just a great three days with Jerrad Lopes.

Ann Wilson: It always is. I'd have that guy back anytime he's around, and we will have him back on someday. But right now, I'm going to tell you: go get his book. It's called *The Dad Tired and Loving It: Stumbling Your Way to Spiritual Leadership*. And we all want to be spiritual leaders and it is basically one step after the other and it's a stumble, but you can do it and Jerrad can help you do it. So pick up the book at familylifetoday.com, click on the link in the show notes and stumble your way to spiritual leadership.

Dave Wilson: We want to hear from you. You can leave us a voice message with your questions, concerns, praise reports or whatever. All you have to do is go to speakpipe.com/familylifetoday. Again, that's speakpipe.com/familylifetoday or get the link in the show notes.

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