FamilyLife Today®

Jim Davis: When you know someone’s story, everything they do makes sense. And so that has been this kind of mind shift. If I’m looking at somebody and what they’re doing doesn’t make sense to me, the problem is that I don’t understand their story and I need to be more curious. And this is true of my children, this is true of our marriage, this is true in the church.

Ann Wilson: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Ann Wilson.

Dave Wilson: And I’m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today. All right, we’ve got Jim and Angela Davis in the studio. And I found out just a little while ago that Angela didn’t even know she was coming. So I wrote the FamilyLife "Angela didn’t know she was coming" blues. Let’s hear it.

I woke up this morning and my husband Jim said we’re on the show. I woke up this morning, I gotta talk about something I don’t even know. That’s not true. Well, we’re on the show with Dave and Ann talking about curious listening.

Ann Wilson: Nice.

Dave Wilson: There we go. The editors will probably cut that out, but...

Jim Davis: Maybe we should just talk about communication, of how important that is in a marriage. We had to work some communication. I may have said yes to this before I properly informed Angela, but she’s here and excited to be with you and her.

Dave Wilson: But Angela, when you heard it, were you excited? You were like, "Oh, that’d be great," or was it like, "Are you kidding me?"

Angela Davis: No, I started to panic. Absolutely. I was like, "What?" This is very typical for Jim. He’ll say, "You’ll be fine, just get up there and talk." Is that what he was speaking for him? Yes, same. 100%.

Jim Davis: Maybe it’s a pastor’s thing. They believe in us so much.

Angela Davis: It’s a compliment, kind of.

Jim Davis: I think so.

Dave Wilson: We both know you all do great. I wouldn’t put you in a situation where I didn’t think you would flourish.

Angela Davis: But at the time, because this was Saturday when I found out...

Dave Wilson: All right, so tell our listeners and viewers what you guys do. You’re local. You just drove over here.

Angela Davis: I’m a mental health counselor here in Orlando, working in private practice. That’s pretty much my day job, and then we have four kids.

Ann Wilson: We’ve had you guys on several times. One, talking about your heart attack. That was a big deal. I had a lot of people call me and say that was a great episode.

Jim Davis: Good. Thanks for having that heart attack so we could create a great show. But then you were on with your book. What was your other book called?

Jim Davis: The Great Dechurching.

Ann Wilson: And you’re a pastor.

Jim Davis: That’s right. I pastor Orlando Grace Church here in town. Dave has preached at my church.

Ann Wilson: And this is going to be your next book, probably.

Jim Davis: We’ll see. It’s a fun... it could be. It’s something that we’re passionate about. Curious listening.

Dave Wilson: Never heard that term. When you sent me some thoughts on where the book’s going, "curious listening." What does that mean?

Jim Davis: I realized that when you texted me last night and said, "What are we talking about?" But it is something that both of us have grown really passionate and excited about from the aspect of just wanting to grow and learn. Curious listening is what I would call a lost skill in our culture, a lost art. It’s listening really wanting to understand rather than just respond.

Dave Wilson: Wait, I wasn’t listening real close. Say that again. You know that joke was coming.

Jim Davis: This is something that you two do very well anyway, not least of which you do this very often here in the studio. But listening not just to respond, not to win, not to beat somebody or be right, but to really understand somebody and know somebody. The implications for us in church, in therapy, in marriage, and in parenting are just huge.

I really started to become aware of this when I watched her go through her graduate program in counseling. I began to see her developing skills that I have no idea what goes on inside the room when she’s with somebody, but outside of it, I would see people begin to just open up in ways that she was always good at it, but there was something new. Then I began to see her being curious of me, and that really opened this really sweet part of our marriage that I didn’t feel like we had experienced up until that point.

Ann Wilson: Angela, did you know you’d been learning and so did you think, "Oh, I’m going to apply this"?

Angela Davis: No, I think it actually just changed inside of me. It’s a mindset shift and I can remember before I went to grad school, I was a really good listener. People would have said that was a great quality of mine. But now looking back, the way I listened was I got immersed in someone’s story. I was along for the ride.

I can remember in the beginning part of counseling, you’re having to think through exactly what you guys do. You’re thinking about, "Okay, I’m curious about this aspect. I want to know this, I want to know that. I want to understand how it impacts them or what they’re feeling." You’re probably thinking those things as you have guests.

But in actual life, a lot of us don’t do that. So when I was sitting in the chair for the first time, I was going, "This is hard to get my brain to start being curious about the other person instead of just being along for the ride." There was something that had to shift inside of me. Then I go the other way and I’m like, "It's hard for me to listen because now I’m trying to think about a question."

It’s like going to the mental gym to try to develop this characteristic. This is something I work with with clients. I think for every single human being to actually make this shift in our brains to be curious about what’s going on in someone’s life is very important.

Dave Wilson: I know that when we became the hosts of FamilyLife Today, which has been eight years, nine years now...

Jim Davis: Wow, that long.

Dave Wilson: It’s been a while. That was what shocked me. I thought the job was come in, talk, talk about marriage, I’m a pastor, I’m a speaker, it fits our gifting. And I’m like, that’s not the job. The job is active, curious listening. You cannot take a second and let your mind drift off. Jim’s talking, Angela’s talking, you gotta be locked in knowing where to take this conversation and hearing what’s said. Somebody that’s been really good at that her whole life is sitting right here.

Ann Wilson: I think you’ve become a lot better and I probably have too. But I’m fascinated by people’s stories. I always have that in my mind, like why did they come to that point or that conclusion? But this is when I realize I wasn’t good at it, when our kids were teenagers. I wasn’t curious at all.

Jim Davis: There’s something that switches in our head to want to tell them what to do, establish boundaries, create an atmosphere where you will respect me. But that response, and sometimes that’s needed, I don’t want to minimize that, but it’s the defensive side of parenting.

The offensive side where we are gaining ground is really understanding their heart and their fears and their wounds. That doesn’t, at least in our house, happen very naturally. So we have to think about how do we create spaces for that? Not that we’re the best examples of it. We were driving over here this morning just talking about how can we create more spaces for those.

Ann Wilson: Were you telling Angela where you were going today? How did that go?

Jim Davis: I thought we were going out for breakfast.

Angela Davis: Stop it.

Jim Davis: I thought we were just going to hang out with Dave and Ann. He said, "Great!"

Ann Wilson: I think part of it is, as parents, our job is to teach, train, disciple our kids, so we’re instructing them. But before they’re even teenagers, to be curious about, "Oh, what do you think about that? Why do you think that?" It’s hard sometimes to turn the one off and put the other one on. That thinking cap like, "I’m going to be a curious listener," which we should do all the time with everyone.

Dave Wilson: So why don’t we?

Jim Davis: I really think there’s at least a spiritual side and a cultural side. The spiritual side, when the fall happened, when sin entered into the world, we got new instincts. In terms of how we communicate, we have instincts of fear and anxiety and the instinct to want to win or beat or compensate for our own insecurities and fears in the ways to be defensive, justify, hide, blame shift.

All these things entered into our instinctual mode, and all of those things work against wanting to curiously listen to somebody, hear their story, and really see the image of God as marred as it may be inside somebody else. So you have the spiritual component.

But then there’s a cultural component. We live in an age where talking is more prized than listening, where winning is more prized than understanding. We see that in the political realm, we see that on social media. Everything about social media is geared toward selfishness. I want to see a certain thing, I want to project a certain thing, and when we post, we’re talking, we’re not listening. So there’s a lot culturally that works against curious listening and trains us to do the opposite.

Ann Wilson: Ann, quick question. What would I say is my favorite thing about you?

Ann Wilson: Is this a trick question?

Dave Wilson: See, this is why we need Spousology. Spousology is a couple’s trivia game that puts how well you know each other to the test with plenty of laughs along the way.

Ann Wilson: There’s 240 questions, so whether you’ve been married two years or 46 like us, there’s always something new to discover. Go grab Spousology for your next date night or couple’s game night at Shop.FamilyLife.com.

Dave Wilson: And Dave, the answer was my sense of humor.

Ann Wilson: Sure, let’s go with that. One of the things I try to communicate in the communication talk at the Weekend to Remember is what you just said. When you try to communicate, there’s two things we often think about: skills, and that’s what usually people think. "I gotta be a better communicator, I gotta articulate what I’m saying or listen better."

But the other thing I think is as important, if not more important, is attitude. And so I’ve always said at that little section of the Weekend to Remember, the best listeners are humble. It’s the character quality that makes you a great listener. It’s like, "It’s not about me. It doesn’t really matter what I want to say or what I think. It’s about them right now." And to be humble enough to say, "I’m not going to interrupt, I’m not going to cut off, I’m not going to respond, I’m just going to listen and ask a follow-up question." Is that true? Because I think humility could be the most important character quality in a marriage. It’s like it’s not about me. I’m going to lay down my life to love you and listen to you.

Angela Davis: One of the things that I talk about often, and I think we both talk about, is that it’s impossible to be critical and curious at the same time. Think about that. You actually can’t do both of those. When we’re coming from a place of criticism, it changes everything.

We’ve got a tone about us. My kids will say that. "Mom, you just come in with the tone." And it’s right. I’ve already made a judgment on something. I’m being very critical. But we will come at people like that. We have to be able to change that shift in our mind to curiosity.

If I recognize that I’m coming in with a defensive, "I’m coming at you trying to win" posture, that’s not humble. Curiosity and humility really go together. So that’s what I keep in my mind. When I notice my tone, when I notice my defensiveness, when my walls are going up or I’m just trying to win, I’m automatically aware that I’m not curious. We gotta take a step back, humble ourselves, and start to ask good questions.

Ann Wilson: I’m just going to say as parents, our kids hear and feel our judgment tones. Mine do. They’ve told me. I can remember one of our kids was in high school and he was talking about this guy. And I said, "Is that the guy that’s always high and he’s always smoking pot?" And I think I said something like, "Is that that bad kid?" That’s what I said. "Is that that bad kid that’s always high and he’s always smoking pot?" It’s judgment. I remember after that thinking, "I need to ponder this. I wonder what his story is."

Jim Davis: That’s curious.

Ann Wilson: Exactly what we’re talking about. I had one of our preschool granddaughters was saying, "Oh, that’s the bad kid in school. He’s always in trouble." And I remember saying to her, "I wonder what his story is. I wonder what’s going on." Because we pass our judgment skills onto our kids. And if we’re judging, they’re judging. So that’s convicting. Jesus didn’t do that. Jesus always knew the story and was always digging into it.

Jim Davis: You open up a lot of doors right there. I love everything you’re saying. I think last time we were on the radio, we mentioned that we love our counselor. We have a counselor, her name is Kim Johnson. I’ll give her that shout out. But she says... and this has been revolutionary for me in this process: When you know someone’s story, everything they do makes sense. And it doesn’t mean that what they do is healthy or right, but when you know someone’s story, everything they do makes sense.

And so that has been this mind shift. If I’m looking at somebody and what they’re doing doesn’t make sense to me, the problem is that I don’t understand their story and I need to be more curious. This is true of my children, this is true of our marriage, this is true in the church, it’s true in a lot of different places. It actually makes me think of you and Ivy.

Angela Davis: This happened with one of our kids a couple months ago. Somebody in her class got expelled. All the kids are talking about it and all the judgments that they make for that reason. I was just asking her, "I wonder what is going on in his life that would make him make that decision? What do you think’s going on? What do you know about him?"

And she started to actually change that in her brain as the question. "Oh, I don’t know, but I do know this and this." I was like, "Exactly. How do you think that makes him feel? Do you think he might be acting out of this?" So it was really helpful to walk a teenager through. Let’s question what is going on in someone’s life? What is their story?

Dave Wilson: I’m curious. You said you have a counselor.

Jim Davis: We do.

Dave Wilson: A lot of people are like, "Wait a minute. Pastor? Weekend to Remember marriage FamilyLife speaker couple? And I thought Angela was a counselor!" Yes. But seriously, there’s some couples think that’s like you gotta really be messed up if you have a counselor. Talk about that. I’m curious. Why?

Angela Davis: I think we might have mentioned this last time. After the heart attack, Jim changed a lot. And me trying to adjust, it changed our marriage. We go through these seasons in our marriage where one of us or maybe both of us change and we become different people. We get stuck wanting them to go back to who they were instead of making adjustments to who they are now.

Ann Wilson: That’s huge right there. Because we all do that. Like they change... I don’t think I know this person and do I like this new person?

Angela Davis: That’s the stage we were in. We were like, "We need to go back to marriage counseling. Let’s talk about not just communication." But when you really get into good marriage counseling, you find out what are the wounds underneath your unmet attachment needs that we’re operating out of.

When those are getting hit, then these defensive patterns start and we’re pushing each other away in some form because it’s hurting us and we can’t name it. That was just hugely helpful for us. Then Jim's gone on to do some more work on his own, but as a couple, highly recommend it.

Jim Davis: I have a monthly standing counseling appointment. There are times I don’t even know what we’re going to talk about. But every time I’m like, "This is so good." And a lot of it is because she is a good curious listener. There’s a lot here. You mentioned Jesus. At some point we can come back to Jesus because that’s the most important.

But in terms of neuroscience, we have these deep needs to be seen, to be... let’s see if I can do this. This is your realm. To be soothed, to be... there’s two more S’s.

Angela Davis: Safe and secure.

Jim Davis: Seen, soothed, safe, and secure.

Angela Davis: That’s basically defining what secure attachment is. As believers, we would say God has created us with those needs. Every person in this world wants, number one, to be seen. We want to be seen and known. A lot of problems happen if we don’t have anyone who soothes us. We think about that with a baby when we come into the world. A baby cannot regulate its emotions. It needs a parent or a caregiver to do that.

But even as adults, that soothing is more like someone empathizing with me does wonders for my nervous system. Or someone just even helping a calm, peaceful presence calms me down. So that’s the soothe. That makes us feel safe and secure. Those are very important S-word characteristics that we need in life, and curious listening is what helps provide all that for a person.

Dave Wilson: We know what a baby does when they’re not soothed. What do adults do?

Angela Davis: Typically, they move into a state of isolation. When we isolate, we are often... it can be distance, it could be just walls. When you think about the levels of communication we talk about at the Weekend to Remember, then I’m just staying up in the facts, opinions, cliché area. I’m not moving into anything vulnerability or transparency.

As adults, we hide, we put up walls, we isolate. When we do that, especially when we’re going through suffering, then we’re only encoding a narrative in our mind that’s going to be filled with anger or bitterness, guilt or shame, fear and anxiety because we don’t have anyone else’s perspective. We don’t have anyone asking us questions to help us flesh out what is really true, because all I have is my perspective.

Jim Davis: Even thinking of how change really happens. Again, this is something I felt like when you have a spouse that goes through a graduate degree in counseling and learns all these things, I should get a secondary certificate.

Angela Davis: He enabled me to do it.

Jim Davis: I feel like you do. I learned so much. We tend to think as pastors that change is going to happen when we can bring the right information to somebody. Or as a spouse, change is going to happen when I can change her information, she is going to feel differently.

Angela Davis: "I’m going to fix you."

Jim Davis: "I’m going to fix you." That’s what it is. Curious listening is not a posture of fixing, but understanding. But understanding actually facilitates change more because change doesn’t begin with the solution. Change begins with someone feeling seen and not alone in their pain. That’s the beginning of change.

There actually is some more neuroscience behind it that I’m going to oversimplify because this is not my specialty. But the brain is interestingly... you have your front and your back, and they’re somewhat divided. I don’t know why God chose to do it that way. But you have your prefrontal cortex that is more your reasoning, and then you have your amygdala in the back, which is more your instinctual feels.

When you feel anxiety and fear or anger, those kinds of emotions, they come from the back of our brain. The reasoning part happens fairly separately. But there’s something that happens when we can talk about what we feel with the front of our brain. We can reason about why we feel what we feel. It connects the front and the back in a way that lowers defenses, barriers, emotions.

And so with curious listening, just really having a posture of, "I want to understand your story. I want to understand you." Not in a condescending way, don't want to make somebody feel like a project, but a genuine, "I will be happier when I can understand you better."

Ann Wilson: Do you think... and let’s bring Jesus back into that. Don’t you wonder what it was like to have a conversation with Him?

Jim Davis: Well, we have some insight. We have the New Testament, and it was recorded. What’s interesting, and I do want to be careful, we’re not saying there’s never a time for bold proclamation. We’re not saying that. Proverbs has a lot to say about communication. James says it. Paul says in Ephesians, "Pray for me that I may proclaim the gospel boldly as I ought." So there’s a place for that.

But what I’ve started doing, this is probably about a year and a half ago, I began looking at Jesus’s life from the perspective of how He communicates. I want to tell you how many questions He asks. It is unbelievable. He is the ultimate curious listener. Even when He already knows the answer, which He’s God, He knows.

He asks to help them see, feel, and understand what’s inside their heart. He wants to validate. He asks more questions than He provides answers. He is constantly engaging people by drawing them out rather than just putting things into them.