FamilyLife Today®

Duran George: Showing somebody perfection is not actually how you lead people. If I want to lead my family correctly, then I need to show them all parts of me, and the vulnerable part is what actually started changing my relationship with my kids.

That is when they noticed the switch. I didn't bring it up, they brought it up. We laugh about it now, but it was a switch for them and it's completely different now.

Ann Wilson: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.

Dave Wilson: And I'm Dave Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.

So it's Men's Day at FamilyLife Today, and I've got the most manly men in the whole city of Orlando. Yes, I do.

George Rosario: Yes, we do.

Dave Wilson: I'll take that. That was George Rosario. How do I say your last name?

George Rosario: Rosario. That's the American version. Rosario.

Dave Wilson: Say that again.

George Rosario: Rosario.

Dave Wilson: And then we've got Brian Goins over here. I bet I can say that.

Brian Goins: Well, it's pretty easy.

Dave Wilson: That's easy. And Duran George. Tell our listeners, and hopefully they're watching right now, because this is such a pretty table. My wife did a women's panel. I don't know, what do you think?

Duran George: The table feels pretty. It's a strong table.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, strong table. All right, Duran, how many kids?

Duran George: I have four kids.

Dave Wilson: How long married?

Duran George: I've been married for 12 years.

Dave Wilson: Boys, girls?

Duran George: One boy, three girls.

Guest (Male): Ask him how many PhDs he has.

Dave Wilson: That was the voice of Bruce, our audio engineer. PhDs? More than one?

Duran George: I have one and I'm working on a second one right now. My first one is in Global Leadership, so I spent three years traveling around the world doing leadership. The next one is in Public Theology and Community Engagement.

Dave Wilson: Very learned man we've got next to you.

Brian Goins: I feel really dumb right now.

Dave Wilson: I don't think so. George, what do you have?

George Rosario: I have three boys: 20, 19, and 16. I've been married 25 years this year. Praise God. No PhDs.

Brian Goins: We pale over here compared to Duran. I just did a wedding. We've been married 29 years to Jen. We've got three kids. My 26-year-old daughter just got married in January. My 22-year-old son just got married back in May, so my kids were kind enough to get married, two of them in one year. I don't recommend that. They got engaged within 24 hours of each other. That was not kind. Then I've got a 17-year-old son that we have forbidden to marry this year, so he's got to wait.

Dave Wilson: Raise your hand if you've ever forgotten your kids somewhere. Really? Two out of four of us? George, you and I must be on another level. What's that look like? What do you mean you forgot them?

George Rosario: Sometimes schedules are wild and it was like, "Somebody forgot to pick them up." Somebody better hurry.

Brian Goins: We left our toddler—he was definitely a toddler—in a car seat in the back of the car. Fortunately, it was not hot. It was cold. We were Christmas tree shopping. We had a bunch of kids and were with other families. We were up in the mountains of North Carolina, chopping down our own tree. When we say chopping, we mean picking it out and letting a guy with a chainsaw come.

We all go to this restaurant and for some reason, Jen and I were in some moments of intense fellowship. We were at odds a little bit, and everyone got out of our car. We walked into the restaurant, both a little frustrated, closed the doors, and walked in. Then we sat down and we looked at each other and said, "Wait, where is Gibson?" That turned into another fight.

Dave Wilson: That could be thrown in jail for. I know, it wasn't long, though. It was a couple minutes. He was just chilled in the back seat. And it wasn't hot. Just in case you're wondering, FamilyLife does not endorse this kind of parenting. That is not what happens.

I actually did the same thing and the police showed up at my house. I didn't forget, I intentionally thought I'm going to run in, I'm going to run out of the grocery store. He was asleep. You know how you're like, "I'm not going to wake him up." This was way back then when stuff like that happened. I ran in and came out and as I was walking to the car, I heard over the loudspeaker, "There is a child in a car." I just got in my car and drove away.

Then you won't believe this. I go that night to play basketball or something and while I'm gone, a policeman comes to our house to check on my character. The only thing that saved me is I had told Ann. If I hadn't prepped her, if I hadn't told her that I made a huge mistake today, nobody would ever know. If I hadn't told her, I think I'd have been in trouble. He said, "Your husband told you that? That means he made a mistake." Yeah, crazy. I felt like I was the best guy at this table. You feel better about yourself now, right?

Brian Goins: I didn't have a cop call, but they could have.

Dave Wilson: Let's talk parenting. Why are we just in true confessions as dads right now?

Brian Goins: Yeah, a little bit.

Dave Wilson: We get to have a conversation that I know a couple things are going to happen. There will be some guys listening and hopefully they're going to learn not to do what we just did. But there will be a lot of wives that are hopefully understanding even how we think and operate as men, as husbands, and dads. I want to tackle both areas. Since we're talking about kids, let's start with parenting. What do you have in terms of regrets?

George Rosario: I think time. I wish I would have spent even more time with my kids. They're still at home and now I'm trying to push them out, at least the oldest ones. But I think work. I was working a lot of hours back in the day. Not to say I wasn't spending time with my boys, but I just feel like time goes by so fast. I wish I would have known that because I would have said a lot more and maybe trained a lot more.

Duran George: I would say around the same. There was a particular time from 2018 to 2020 where I worked probably 80 hours a week. My kids didn't see me. I missed birthdays and everything. It came to a head when my daughter, the eight-year-old, said, "Dad, I never see you." That broke my heart and that is when it changed.

I was in that mode where I had to provide for my family. I had to make sure everything was okay. I had to take care of the bills. All the weight was on my shoulders, so I thought, "I'll just work." That's what I did. There was a two-year period where I just felt like I missed them growing up, and I do regret that.

Dave Wilson: So you've got the same regret. Brian, is yours same or different?

Brian Goins: I could have that regret. I've got a list of them. We could go to counseling together. When I think about it, there's a lot that you can feel, and I think every dad feels a sense of he's never going to be enough, which is just true. Because we're fallen people, right?

I remember scarring Palmer as a kid. We were wrestling on the bed or something. He was probably two. I remember we were wrestling and I felt my thumb enter in right here by his eye. He kind of yelped a little bit. I looked and there was this half-moon little cut. I just sat there and I went, "That's not going to be the last time I scar him." The scars that I regret are those that are on their heart. Whether it's because of a word or something you say or not say in a moment. Spiritually, I didn't pour into them enough spiritually. I probably feel that more than anything.

Dave Wilson: You've got older kids. Have you had any of them come to you as they got to be adults? My oldest just turned 40, so I'm the old man here. But have you had your kids come to you?

George Rosario: I just thought of my biggest regret. It ties into what you're asking now because it was my oldest. He was a little older, but I remember he told me, "Dad, I thought you were perfect." I remember hearing that and it hit me so hard. It was like this weighty thing. I was like, "Wait, I never wanted my son to think that of me." I realized in that moment that I haven't been transparent with my boys. To me, that equated to not showing my sons that I need Jesus. That to me is my biggest regret. Now I tell them all the time, "Your dad messed up again." I've learned that it's important to be transparent with my boys about my failures, my sin, and my struggle.

Dave Wilson: You know, as a pastor, I have definitely felt the tension of serving marriages in our church. It's a passion of ours and couples aren't falling apart, but they're not really connecting either. Things can look fine on the surface or on the outside, but there's always some drift happening underneath. You see this as a leader and you know marriages need support, but figuring out what to do often can feel overwhelming. So we've walked with a lot of churches through this and most just need a simple place to start.

Ann Wilson: And we have that for you. If you've thought about doing a marriage event but didn't want to build it from scratch, this is a great way forward. When you purchase 10 or more workbooks, we'll include the full video study. Just use the code "Strong Families." That's one word. Through June 30th. You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click the link in the show notes and just enter the discount code "Strong Families."

Dave Wilson: Let me tell you, strong families don't happen by accident. Sometimes all it takes is one intentional step to help couples reconnect again.

I've shared this here probably sometime before, but we found pornography on our computer. This was way back before digital devices, a home computer which was in the basement. First problem. It should be where everybody can see. My oldest was 11 or 12. Three boys. I didn't know who did it. Actually, Ann found it. Her first question was, "Is this you?" I said, "It's not me." And I'm not lying. It's not me.

So now I'm thinking, what will my response be as a dad if my son ever starts down that road? And here it is. So then I had to do a little investigation. We find out it's one of my sons. We go down and I'll never forget it. Ann and I are sitting on a couch, he's on the other side and he said, "Yeah, that was me," and he felt really bad. Here's my moment. I thought I'd probably get pretty mad. My moment was, I cried.

It's what George made me think of. I said, "I've been down this road. You just opened Pandora's box. This opens a world that doesn't go away easily and I want to be your dad to be with you." So it was a moment where I got to say, "I'm weak. I have been there. It isn't something that just goes away. I still have to fight that. Let's fight it together."

Brian Goins: Had you shared that with your sons before?

Dave Wilson: Not till then. I remember asking that same son—he was on a wrestling team—I said, "How many of your wrestling buddies look at porn?" Do you know what he said? He said, "Every kid." This is in the '80s. He said, "Every kid." He was in a public school. Every kid. And we're talking magazines, right? Wow. Think about where we are now. We are handing them a device that can carry that. But I think what you just said, that vulnerability of being a dad that is weak and shares that, like "let's go on a journey together," is a good thing, right?

Duran George: That is something I had to learn. My kids have a saying for me. They say they had two different dads. The first one they call "Prime Dad." Prime Dad was nothing cracks, everything's perfect. I don't make any mistakes. A year or so ago, it was like a light switched and I was like, "What am I doing? I'm setting them up for failure because everybody has issues." If they don't see that, then when they get older, I'm going to be in a world of hurt trying to help them navigate.

Dave Wilson: What happened to you a year ago? Why did you flip that?

Duran George: I think it was just me maturing, just realizing that showing somebody perfection is not actually how you lead people. If I want to lead my family correctly, then I need to show them all parts of me and the vulnerable part is what actually started changing my relationship with my kids. That's when they noticed the switch. I didn't bring it up, they brought it up. We laugh about it now, but it was a switch for them and it's completely different now.

Dave Wilson: When I said regrets, all three of you said "I wish I'd spent more time." Time flies by. So I immediately thought, how's that apply to your marriage? Have you heard the same thing from your wife? Or do you feel the same way?

Brian Goins: She wishes she had less time with me. That's what I feel.

George Rosario: Some of that is because I was spending so much time with my wife. We did that right. We spend a lot of time and prioritize our marriage. I think that came from a time of when babies are first born, moms are like, "Dad, you're over there. Dad gets no attention." So we were just recovering and making up for that too. Because it's just a reality, the babies really need the parents and the marriage kind of takes a backseat sometimes. So we were spending a lot of time and we still do. The kids know mom and dad first, we'll get some attention later.

Duran George: You said earlier, working 80 hours a week almost cost me my marriage. We moved down to Florida with just me, her, and the kids. No support system or anything like that. She's never left the state she was born in, which is Indiana. So I moved her a thousand miles away from her family and I immediately start working 80 hours a week. She looks at me one day and she says, "I can go back home and be a single parent."

Dave Wilson: Was that comment enough to wake you up or did it take a little more?

Duran George: No, it was not enough to wake me up. But it was enough to get my attention, but it didn't last. Work still needed to get done so I just kept working. It wasn't until my eight-year-old now came and said, "I miss you. I never see you." That was it. I was like, "Okay, something's got to change." At first, I was like, "My wife doesn't understand what it takes to take care of the bills and make sure everything's good." So I kind of blew it off. "You just don't understand the weight." But then you have your daughter come and say that.

Dave Wilson: Do you guys think there's something in us as men that drives us to work like that? I'm not saying we all do 80 hours, but I've noticed at least in me and other men, we go hard. There's this drive to accomplish and succeed or whatever the job is. It's almost "You're good, right? As a wife and as the kids, you're good, right? Please be good. Because I've got something over here." Have you struggled with that?

George Rosario: I think most men probably. It's not my story. When I say spend time, I mean quality time. My sin is passivity. I'm very passive naturally. I have a natural inclination just to be passive. I'm not as driven as most men around me. Probably because I never had an example of what that looked like growing up. My dad wasn't around and I didn't have a good male role model. I say this all the time, I think I was discipled into passivity because of my surroundings. It was just nobody being intentional to pour into me. So I think I also was training my kids into passivity because that's all I knew. For me, it wasn't the drive, it was the lack of. It was the unintentionality that I think caused that problem with me and my boys.

Brian Goins: I think even in a drive, you're passive. Even if you're driven, you're passive about the things that really matter. Duran, you were driven about getting PhDs, leading, traveling the world, all that. But then you were passive with the things that you'd say you value: my wife, my kids. But I'm passive, I'm not taking time with them. I think that's the underbelly of laziness, that I can be lazy with stuff that matters. Even if you're driven, I think you can be passive. I can definitely relate with George as far as I can lean back rather than lean in, whether it's with work or with kids or wife.

For me, it was spiritually. If you were going back to the question about regret with my wife, for 23 years of our 29 years, Jen would have said the number one thing on her prayer list was that she would have a husband who would pray with her on a regular basis. We'd pray before dinner and for big decisions and all that, but I knew that was part of her love language. I knew that's how she wanted to connect with God and with me. I just felt totally intimidated by it because I didn't have much of an example or discipled. I always heard, "Pray with your wife every day." I heard Dennis Rainey say that every day. That was his biggest success. And I would feel totally insecure about that. And you wouldn't feel insecure praying with guys or leading a Bible study or praying from the stage, but praying with Jen. What is it? Do you know? I think it's because I felt like I was having to perform.

Dave Wilson: Do you guys experience that? Because I have felt the same thing.

George Rosario: My wife has shared with me that she felt that pressure when we started to pray together. She felt the need to pray the way that I prayed. She felt like I prayed these really lofty prayers. For me, the struggle was I've always loved my alone closet time and I felt like that's my time. I don't want anybody in that time, even my wife, which is crazy to say. But when we started to pray together, it was like you're exposing everything. I think that's the challenge, right? Because it's like, "This is an intimate space." It's like, "Why wouldn't I invite my wife into this intimate space?" You have to overcome that hurdle, whatever the fears are, whatever those preconceived ideas are that you have to pray a certain way in front of your spouse and perform. It's just not even real.

Dave Wilson: Maybe because it's so intimate is why they love it. They want emotional connection, which is heightened when we go vertical with them together. Part of me gets afraid of that. I've felt the same thing you said, Brian and George. Ann was at church that morning and that night she said, "I wish the man that led our church lived here." When I asked her and I didn't understand what she meant, I just turned to her and said, "What do you mean?" She says, "I watched you today, you're preaching with passion. You're casting vision and then you pray with this real relationship with God." She says, "Then you come home and you're just a dud." She literally said "dud." I responded really well. I jumped up and said, "I know the men in this church and you've got the best one right here." Anyway. But the truth is, she was right. I didn't realize it until the next day when I got alone with God. I was like, "I need to step up in the home. I don't need to step up in my job. I'm bringing it there. I'm not bringing it here." Have you felt that? What is spiritual companionship or partnership or leadership look like for you guys as husbands and as dads?

Duran George: I think for me the fear was that she knows me. She knows what I struggle with. She knows the intricacies of it. So sometimes it felt like, does she believe what's coming out of my mouth? Because we just fought 15 minutes ago and now I'm sitting here praying. Does she actually believe what I'm saying? Well, I believe what I'm saying. I think it was that fear that she knows me better than anyone, which is great, but at the same time there was that fear of, "I'm trying to lead you spiritually, but then you know all of my struggles. You know what I deal with and what I fight with." That made it really hard in the beginning, real hard. I think with time it has changed, but that was my struggle in the beginning.

George Rosario: Saying, "Babe, I'm struggling. Pray for me." It's empowering. It also promotes trust. I remember when I first started sharing with her, I was battling in my head. I remember having thoughts of wanting to go watch porn. This was a few years back. I was like, "Why do I need to tell this to my wife? I didn't do the act." But the Holy Spirit was saying, "No, you need to tell her." I remember the first time I told her, I was expecting the judgment and "let's solve this." I just didn't want any of that. Her response though was, "Wow, babe, thank you for sharing that." Starting to practice that has deepened our prayer time together, even our intimacy together. It's just trusting my wife.

Dave Wilson: Isn't that interesting? What you just shared, a lot of guys wouldn't think that's leadership. You led by sharing a struggle. They love that. And the kids too. They need to see that.

Brian Goins: I think too often we put this weight on leadership as this sense of you've got to set yourself up, whereas Jesus modeled that sense of a leader as somebody who steps down. A leader is somebody who steps down and shares their vulnerability, somebody who steps down and shares their struggles, their weaknesses, and says, "How can we do this better together?" It's not out in front and setting a pace as much as it is really stewarding this family culture, my relationship with you, and my relationship with the Lord. Partnership is the big word. It's a partnership.

Dave Wilson: What a great day on the men's panel. We're going to talk tomorrow as well and it gets—we get in some deep stuff tomorrow.

Ann Wilson: We know life is full of challenges, and families today need biblical truth more than ever. Isn't that true?

Dave Wilson: That is true.

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