First Love

Guest (Male): Welcome to First Love with Dr. Robyn Kassas and Dr. Nathan Kassas, where faith meets real life. In this weekly broadcast, you'll discover practical and spiritual keys to reclaim God's story in your life, deepen your relationship with Jesus, and encounter Him as your first love, whether for the first time or all over again. No topic is off-limits as we make Jesus real, relevant, and relational. Stay with us. Your journey back to first love starts now.

Dr. Nathan Kassas: Hello everybody and welcome back to First Love. Today is Wednesday. Dr. Robyn, it's a beautiful day. My name is Dr. Nathan Kassas and I have sitting across from me the resplendent, the emerging—

Dr. Robyn Kassas: Okay, let's keep it to just your mother.

Dr. Nathan Kassas: No, they're rhemas, but it's important that we have some fun as well as talk the serious stuff. Well, welcome everybody. Today is Wednesday and we're excited to continue our series on the schema-rhema dynamic. We've been identifying important markers that point out whether or not we are listening or hearing, generating a rhema, or if we are reliving a schema. Yesterday, we came to some important markers. Dr. Robyn, we talked about the fruit.

Dr. Robyn Kassas: I think that's a really important one because this is the fruit of the Holy Spirit. You can't produce that. Only God's spirit can produce that.

Dr. Nathan Kassas: That's right. It's important because when we talk about the fruit, this is what Jesus said you will know them by. You will know them, meaning are they disciples of me or are they disciples of the devil? There was no in-between. There is no in-between fruit. There's only good fruit and bad fruit. There's no middle fruit, but sometimes we like to create middle fruit and think it's passable by God. So we're going to go into the next marker.

Dr. Robyn Kassas: That fruit doesn't taste good. So the next one, the control marker. Does this require manipulation to make it happen?

Dr. Nathan Kassas: Oh my lord. This is powerful. This goes along with maneuvering. A lot of times we maneuver and call that the Holy Spirit. We add to the evidence that God has done this. God has made this happen. Look! But you maneuvered things into position to make it look like God has done this.

Dr. Robyn Kassas: And I want to say just to give a little statement here. If you keep doing that, you will need to do that for the rest of your life. This puts you in a place where you've been doing it for so long you don't even know if God's with you in these things anymore. That to me is a terrible place to be. I need to know God's with me in the good and even hard times. Do you understand what I'm saying? But if I'm creating and manipulating and maneuvering, then where does it leave us?

Dr. Nathan Kassas: So important about control is that control is always tied to a prediction pattern. The neuroscience of it is that your prediction pattern is always going to cause you to do something, and most of that inspiration is demonic. I'm going to say it that way, which will always be to control. I have a couple of statements here that I want to talk about scientifically.

A trigger activates our schemas. A delayed text, a change in tone, maybe a criticism, silence, uncertainty—

Dr. Robyn Kassas: Just a thought or someone's opinion.

Dr. Nathan Kassas: Yeah, maybe success. Loss of control can activate the old framework. The event itself may be ambiguous, but the schema supplies the meaning quickly. This is what the schema assigns to that trigger. It becomes, "They're pulling away," "I'm about to be rejected," or "I'm losing control."

When I start to think I'm losing control, the schema says I need to do what I need to do to regain control quickly. A schema often says, "If this is really God, I need to force the outcome," whereas a rhema always calls for obeying what God said in the first place.

Dr. Robyn Kassas: A rhema is always wise. It's always pure love, and there's always gentleness and peacefulness.

Dr. Nathan Kassas: James 3:17 says the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and willing to yield.

Dr. Robyn Kassas: That's the one that counteracts control: willing to yield. Wow.

Dr. Nathan Kassas: And the example of this is to do with Saul and the sacrifices you talked about a couple of episodes ago. 1 Samuel 15, Saul actually disobeys the command of the Lord and then he tries to frame the spared animals as a spiritual sacrifice.

Dr. Robyn Kassas: Yeah, he went to spiritual language.

Dr. Nathan Kassas: And that's when Samuel turns around and says no, to obey is better than sacrifice. So he tries to dress up disobedience in a spiritual language.

Dr. Robyn Kassas: That's what I said, spiritual language.

Dr. Nathan Kassas: That's what we do. I've done it many times, probably did it today, so Lord forgive me. If my word from God requires me to deceive, put pressure on, manipulate, or violate love—here's a big one—violate love, it is not a rhema.

Dr. Robyn Kassas: You're virtually saying here, let's just take the violation one. If there's a violation of love, it can never be a rhema. Because God is love. He is embodied love and He never violates Himself.

Dr. Nathan Kassas: So again, we're pointing this out not to condemn. We're pointing this out to help you identify. Investigate and identify. Not everything coming in your net is good fish.

Dr. Robyn Kassas: It's a net fisherman here, not a line fisherman. You'll get all sorts in your net, and you need to be able to separate what is not good and what is good.

Dr. Nathan Kassas: The key here with the net analogy is: how does the net determine what is good and what is not? The boundaries between the net get narrower. See, the boundaries get narrower, meaning that the spirit, the water, is still free to flow through. But as the boundaries get narrower, there's more security because it identifies what is a good catch and what is not.

Dr. Robyn Kassas: A good catch can fill up the net, but if you've got all sorts of things in the net, you won't have room for the good things.

Dr. Nathan Kassas: So true. Okay, so here are a couple of the markers. Let's go from the top as we just recap. The first marker, most important: the source. Did this begin in fear or did it begin in God? Number two, the scripture marker: does this agree with the written word of God? Number three, the fruit marker: what does this produce in me? Is it good fruit?

We read out those fruits of the schema, which seem to be contradicting the fruits of the Spirit. We've got the fruit of the Spirit and then we've got the fruit of the schema, which is urgency, suspicion, accusation, control, secrecy, self-protection, and emotional certainty without humility. Now we've come to the next marker, the control marker. That question is: does this require manipulation to make it happen?

Dr. Robyn Kassas: And deception with pressure. Does it require you violating God? Because I'm not going to say violating love; I'm going to say violating God because God embodies love. There would be no rhema about that.

Dr. Nathan Kassas: And I think that's a really important marker there that we need to add. Rhema will never ever go against love. Now, you have to rely on the Holy Spirit for what love is because your interpretation of what love is in the moment and His interpretation of what love is could be two different things.

So Dr. Robyn, this is always coming back to having a conversation with the Lord. Not trusting your own mind, but renewing that mind by putting off the old and putting on the new.

Dr. Robyn Kassas: See, how can you have the conversation with yourself? There's no way but to have the conversation with the Lord. That makes it balanced.

Dr. Nathan Kassas: But unfortunately, we do have a conversation with ourselves all the time. People say psychopaths are the ones in the hospitals, but I'm sorry, we are all crazy because we all talk to ourselves every single minute of the day.

Dr. Robyn Kassas: Try not to. Well, I have a little way. When I hear myself talking to myself, I invite Jesus straight into it.

Dr. Nathan Kassas: Wow. So immediately, that schema becomes my rhema because of an invitation. You can just invite Him in. We'll come back.

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Dr. Nathan Kassas: Well, Dr. Robyn, we are back after the break. That was a really important thing you said right before we went to the break. You mentioned that when you notice yourself talking to yourself, you stop and invite Jesus.

Dr. Robyn Kassas: I always invite the Lord into it because then I open myself for His opinion and His word will weigh. But I then stop the schema and I can involve myself with His rhema because I become a seer. Remember, recognize. The pure in heart shall see God everywhere and in everything. But see Him! That's as a result of the rhema. I will see Him.

Dr. Nathan Kassas: Because I have some self-talk. In the psychology world, they tell you self-talk is good because you have to have self-talk for motivation. You have to have self-talk to accomplish a task because you gee yourself up. You tell yourself, "Okay, I'm going to go here, I'm going to go there, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that."

But I've found I try to watch the ratio. I find if I'm talking to myself, what's stopping me from saying, "Holy Spirit, we're going here. Holy Spirit, I need to go downstairs and do the dishes"? Is that crazy? No. What stops you from inviting Him into that conversation? It doesn't change what you're saying, and if He wants to change it, He will interrupt what you're saying and say what needs to be said.

I want to point out theologically that this took place in the Fall. Before the Fall, Adam and Eve's first go-to was to converse with the Lord in that communion.

Dr. Robyn Kassas: Yes, He loved that.

Dr. Nathan Kassas: But when the mind's eye was opened—the Hebrew word that's used in that part of the scripture, "and their eyes were opened," actually refers to imagination. So when imagination got opened, we became the default voice that we talk to first.

Dr. Robyn Kassas: And that's why they were able to see that they were naked. That imagination, their own voice, told them they were naked. The Father says to them, "Who told you you were naked?" They did. They told themselves.

Dr. Nathan Kassas: Oh my lord. The truth of the knowledge of good and evil that we have opened ourselves to and it's our voice. It's not the enemy's voice. So how do we combat that?

Dr. Robyn Kassas: We at least start to do something to interrupt it by inviting the Lord to be able to say, "Hey, you're heading in the wrong direction here."

Dr. Nathan Kassas: And I would like to say very practically, I do this. I follow your way of doing it and imitate you. I find even if I'm in the shower and I'm just talking to myself about my day or processing, I interrupt myself and go, "Hang on, I need to say Holy Spirit. I need to say Lord Jesus."

Washing my hair, I'll be thinking, "Yeah, we've got to go after this and go do my study." You could do a whole story on this. You could do a whole journey with yourself talking to yourself. Seriously, you could do your whole day. You can fill it up with everything you're going to do. And then I listen and think, "What am I doing?"

Then I realize that conversation is relationship. So I'm really having a relationship with me. No one else is involved. So in the middle, wherever I am, whether I'm in the car, at the gym, in the shower, sitting down and studying—even when I study, I'll tell myself, "Okay, I need to get this many chapters done today." And then the Lord will stop me and go, "Interrupt and invite Me in. Holy Spirit, today we need to get this much done. I'm inviting You into this conversation. I'm not going to wait until the emergency crisis comes up and then say, 'Holy Spirit, please step into my boat. I'm sinking. The storm is—' No, You're in the boat from the beginning."

Dr. Robyn Kassas: No, you go into a rescue mission. I'm challenged to say, what's your role today? What's your order? Is there going to be all this happening today? Because I find now that by the grace of God, I'm not getting phased by these little interruptions. It's only an interruption if you've already got something set up. Because disappointment or something's broken down or something happens, I just go straight into prayer and ask God, "What are You going to say about this now?"

Dr. Nathan Kassas: I'm getting to the place where rather than God interrupting my plans, God gets to redirect my plans.

Dr. Robyn Kassas: I like the redirect. Why is it an interruption if it's God? God interrupting me? Is there such a thing? Circumstances, situations, the devil, all sorts of things, but not God.

Dr. Nathan Kassas: Maybe it was my interpretation of God's plan for that day in the beginning that was wrong. He never was really interrupting; He was just bringing me back to the original thing.

Dr. Robyn Kassas: And that's why He wants to have you as the head and not the tail in that day.

Dr. Nathan Kassas: So Dr. Robyn, that brings us to the next marker, which is called the testing marker. That always asks: can this be examined? What God blesses, He always tests. Why does He do that, Dr. Robyn? I'll give you one reason that I learned from you. He will never be accused from the enemy, just like with Job. "He's only loving You because You've blessed him." He will always be righteous and just because that's His nature. He will never let Satan say, "They're only doing it because they've got the good stuff." You've got to test it in order for it to be blessed.

Dr. Robyn Kassas: But not just Satan says that; people say that all the time. So if it's real, it'll stand the test.

Dr. Nathan Kassas: So true. True rhema does not fear testing. True rhema welcomes scripture, counsel, humility, and the one we don't like the most: time. Time is God's testing agent. It tests what's Him, what's not Him, and it tests what's gone down. This is getting us ready for the Valley Gate, because the Valley Gate is all about testing the truth whether it's landed in you.

Scripture says, "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits whether they are of God." 1 John 4:1. It also says in Proverbs, "Where there is no counsel, the people fall; but in the multitude of counselors, there is safety."

Dr. Robyn Kassas: That is the one that I use more than anything in my ministry. I love the fact that I can have a multitude of counselors, and then I can make the right decision as I listen to what they have to say. Then I can bring it before God, and then He'll tell me on whether or not to take that or set it aside.

Dr. Nathan Kassas: It's funny you said that because one of my instructors and professors—this is for our holistic health course doctorate—she said something and it just landed in me for the first time. She said, "I've learned over the time that what I'm not good at, rely on people for."

Dr. Robyn Kassas: Well, that's saying a multitude of counselors.

Dr. Nathan Kassas: Exactly. And it just landed in me. She's like, "Stop trying to be good at everything and just rely on the people that are good at the things that you're not good at. You don't have to be good at everything. That's what makes you need people."

Dr. Robyn Kassas: And I think the multitude of counselors is variety. It's so true. I've witnessed this in your ministry. You will always bring in myself, Dr. Tony, other people that have different experience, leaders in different gift mixes, and say, "Well, I'm not an expertise in this area." And I recognize that. I think in leadership, that is one of the most powerful things. You cannot be good at everything, and there are things that I cannot touch that I only too willingly would ask for help in that way.

Dr. Nathan Kassas: And it's very humbling and very powerful the way that you exemplify that, because it shows me I don't need to be good at everything. I don't need to know everything. I know a lot, but there are some things that I'm not meant to know, and I can say, "Hey, this is not my expertise. Let me refer." And that's usually when I am operating on that. I know that that's a rhema because rhema, like this we've just said, is not afraid to yield. Schema will always say, "I have the answer for everything. I'm the one, big shot me. Let me give you my 411." But a rhema says no, God hasn't shown me this because it's not for me. This is your part. Your part of the vineyard.

So the testing marker says, hello, a schema will resist testing.