The Narrow Path

Steve Gregg: Good afternoon and welcome to The Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we are live for an hour each weekday afternoon taking your calls. If you have questions about the Bible or the Christian faith, we welcome you to join us on the air. If you want to call with questions, we can discuss them. If you have questions about the Bible or the Christian faith or even a disagreement with the host, that would be fine.

The number to call is 844-484-5737. That's 844-484-5737. And we're going to the phones, but we have several lines open right now. This is a good time for you to call. The lines do fill up, and so if you call later you might not be able to get through. You can if you call right now. 844-484-5737. Our first caller today is Guido from Austria. Welcome. Thanks for calling.

Guido: Good evening. Yes, it's quite late here in Europe. So thank you for having me, Steve. I really appreciate your ministry. It was a great blessing for me in the last two years because I was a 30-year grown-up Jehovah's Witness, also an elder, and came to Christ two years ago. In my research, your commentary on the Bible was a great blessing.

So thank you first of all for your ministry. But there's perhaps one point I wanted to raise, this is the question of prayer to Jesus. I heard your comments on this topic several times where you said prayers should be addressed first of all to the Father, which of course is good biblical. But I wanted to share my experience because for us as Jehovah's Witnesses, it was forbidden to pray to Jesus. It is idolatry according to the doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses.

When I made my journey and encountered Christ personally, having a prayerful relationship to Him was extremely important and changed my life for the better. So I wanted to point that out. In 2 Corinthians 12, Paul had this experience that the force of Christ gave him when he had this thorn in the flesh. This is from my point of view a clear experience of Saint Paul who had a prayerful experience with the Lord Jesus.

When we have also the word "epikalio," call upon the Lord Jesus several times, which in the Septuagint referred also to calling upon Yahweh. So there are some indicators that also the first Christians had a prayerful connection to the Lord Jesus. This is what I wanted to add.

Steve Gregg: There's definitely communication with Jesus that the Christian has. What Jesus taught us is that our prayers—and see here's the thing, I don't use the word "prayer" to refer to all communication with God or with Jesus. Some people do. I mean, just whenever they're talking to God they call that prayer. Prayer for the most part refers to offering petitions, offering for and asking for things.

Jesus said, of course in John 16, "In that day you will ask me nothing, but whatever you ask the Father in my name, He will do it." And obviously when Jesus taught His disciples to pray, He said, "When you pray, say 'Our Father which art in heaven, hallowed be Your name,'" and then come the petitions. I believe that Jesus taught us to go to the Father with our petitions.

Now, I don't think that God is offended if we talk to Jesus. Unlike the Jehovah's Witnesses who think Jesus isn't God and therefore they think it's blasphemous to pray to Him, I believe Jesus is God. But still, I believe He gave us instructions about how to pray. And so when He said to pray to My Father, that's what I do.

Now you're right, in 2 Corinthians 12, Paul talks about the thorn in the flesh. He says, "I asked the Lord three times concerning this that it might depart from me." Now this sounds like a petition to have the thing removed from him. Though he doesn't specify that it was the Lord Jesus. God the Father is also called the Lord. But I think most of the time in the New Testament the term "the Lord," when it's not modified, does mean Jesus. So it sounds like he may have called on Jesus or he may have asked Jesus to take this away.

Guido: It's very clear because he said also "the force of Christ" because in verse 10 he says that the power of Christ may remain upon me. So it may indeed refer to Jesus Christ.

Steve Gregg: Yes, absolutely. And it does say, "He said to me, 'My grace is sufficient for you for my strength is made perfect in weakness.'" So it does sound like it's talking to Christ speaking to him there. So that's good. But I mean it doesn't change the fact that Jesus told us to pray to the Father.

Now you're right, several times the Bible talks about calling on the Lord, calling on the name of the Lord. And 1 Corinthians chapter 1, Paul's writing the letter to all who call on the Lord Jesus Christ. So obviously the Lord there is Jesus. But I believe that "calling upon Him" is an interesting phrase. It comes from Joel chapter 2 where it says, "Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

So it sounds to me like it's crying out for mercy, calling out for salvation. And certainly there's nothing wrong with calling out to Christ for salvation or for mercy or maybe even praying for the thorn to be removed. But Jesus still told us to pray to the Father. And Paul himself in Ephesians chapter 3 said he bows his knee to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. He prays to the Father. So we don't have any teaching—

Guido: It's just my thought, we are very much on the same line, I absolutely agree with you. It was just my thought, it is important and also for perhaps the persons having contact with Jehovah's Witnesses who also deny that we should be born again according to John 3. This is also something also only reserved to 144,000 people.

From my experience with a lot of brothers, I'm now in an evangelical community, in a biblical community here. But for a lot of former Jehovah's Witnesses who really became Christians and became born again, this was a very important experience to give their life to Jesus Christ in a personal prayer. This is only something that I wanted in this specific context point out. This is maybe something that is important for a Christian when he starts his real journey.

Steve Gregg: Well, you may be right. I try to teach people to do what Jesus said to do. So when I teach about prayer, I teach them what He said to do about prayer. But I also don't think that God is offended if we pray to Jesus. It's just not what we're told to do. I have a feeling that many Christians would love to see improvement in their prayers, or at least in the number of answers to prayer they get. So I would think that given the importance of prayer, I'd want to follow pretty closely what we were told to do.

Now we do find people calling out to Jesus. Stephen when he was being stoned, he saw Jesus standing at the right hand of God. He said, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." And in Revelation chapter 22, I guess it is at the end, John says, "Lord Jesus, even so come quickly, Lord Jesus." So there are people who spontaneously cry out to Jesus. Now of course, Stephen and John both were seeing visions of Jesus at the moment when they spoke. That might make it rather natural to speak to Him.

But you know, again, that Christians do sometimes call out to Jesus or even pray to Jesus sometimes is natural enough to imagine. But I've always tried to teach people to do what Jesus said to do about that. Now just as an aside, I don't know what part of Austria you're in but have you ever come across J. Clark over there? He's a missionary friend.

Guido: No.

Steve Gregg: I don't know where he is and I don't know where you are. But I mean I just figured Austria's a big country so probably not, but I have a friend who's been a missionary over there for 40 years.

Guido: It's a small country near Germany, Southern Germany.

Steve Gregg: Oh yeah, I know. I've been to Germany many times, never Austria. Vienna's the capital. Anyway, just wondered, I thought it'd be a coincidence if you happened to know him. He's been there 40 years. Anyway, thank you Guido for calling.

Guido: Thank you very much. God bless you in your ministry.

Steve Gregg: God bless you too. It's great to hear from you. Bye now. Okay, Andy from Dallas-Fort Worth, Texas. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.

Andy: Hi Steve. I appreciate everything you do and talk about on the radio. Yeah, my question is it's been on my heart. The church I go to, they have what they call a Re-Gen class. Anyway, you go through your life and they actually encourage people to apologize, call people up that they know, if it's on your heart, call them up and apologize.

Anyway, I'm not officially in the Re-Gen class right now, but the pastor said if you've been doing that, you're doing Re-Gen. It's been on my heart lately about people that I've offended in my life. So what's your question for me? How do you feel about apologizing to somebody that maybe you offended and you did something you feel like was wrong 50 years ago?

Steve Gregg: Well, I'll say this, there are people who you may have wronged years ago and they don't know it. I don't know that it would be wise to call them up and let them know because there's not a problem to reconcile there because they're not angry.

But Jesus said if you bring your gift to the altar in Matthew chapter 5, he said if you bring your gift to the altar, meaning you come to worship God, and you there remember that your brother has something against you, meaning that you did offend him and it's never been resolved, he said leave your gift at the altar and go and make peace with your brother and then come and offer your gift. So he's saying that if you're neglecting to reconcile with somebody who's got something against you, that's a priority over even worshipping God because worshipping God you need to have your heart right and you need to be somebody who's taking God seriously and he wants you to apologize or repent to somebody who you've wronged.

But he says if your brother has something against you, meaning he's holding something against you. He knows you did something and you've never resolved it. Then that's when you need to go and make it right. Now again, there may be people who don't know what you've done and they're not suffering for it. It's been years ago. I don't know that you should call them up and say, "Hey, you know years ago, you don't know it but I did this to you," because they might not have an issue with you right now and they might then.

So I don't know what Re-Gen is, I'm not familiar with it. But I know 12-step programs kind of tell you to make peace with people you've done wrong and things like that. But more importantly, Jesus said to do that. So it's just a matter of trying to make sure that you aren't leaving any loose ends hanging of people that you've wronged whom you should have repented to.

Now if you've wronged somebody and they don't know it, but let's just say they've suffered financial harm but they didn't know it was you or whatever that did it. Or maybe they do know it and you still haven't repaid them for the damages they've suffered at your hand. There should be, in addition to an apology, an offer to repay the debt, repay what damages they've done. That's called making restitution.

And so I mean there is that too. If somebody has been wronged in some substantial way financially or something, some damage has been suffered by them at your hand, then not only apologizing but going so far as to say, "I want to make this up to you. How can I do this?" Now they might let you off. They might say, "Never mind, I release you from it." In which case, take the gift. But if they say, "Yeah, I mean I'll take it back, I'll take what you stole, or I'll take repayment for the damages," then I'd say you should be committed to doing that.

And you might say, "But in a case where it's so much money I don't have that much money," well you could start making payments, start making payments that can be afforded, cut something out of your life that you can cut out and use the money to help pay back. I'll tell you, I have a friend—he was actually my father-in-law at one time, he's deceased now—his company went bankrupt and he owed the IRS a lot of money or something. No, no. I don't remember how this went. He owed the IRS but he also owed some debtors some money. And it was the debtors that he owed some money to people in business that he still owed after his business went bad.

And you know, he didn't have the money to repay them. But he filed for bankruptcy so there was no legal pressure. But then he spent the next 12 years paying back all those debts. So even though he'd gotten released from it by a bankruptcy decision of the courts, he still counted himself to owe it to them. And so he spent 12 years paying back every penny that he had owed. And that's just what a Christian wants to do. If you've harmed somebody by your wrongdoing, then you if you repent, you really want to make it up to them if you can.

So yeah, I don't know about the Re-Gen. I don't know what that is. But I think it's a good idea. It's what Jesus counsels to do. All right, let's talk to Daniel in Washington state. Daniel, welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.

Daniel: Hello. So I was looking through Revelation series. My question is if it was sealed, why would the prophecy about 666 and like, for example, the woman fleeing to the wilderness also being relevant if it was sealed?

Steve Gregg: Well, the sealing of it I believe, you're talking about in chapter 10, when he heard the seven thunders and he started to write it down. He said don't write it down, it's sealed up. I believe that's just a way of saying it's not going to be fulfilled right away. It's not going to be immediately fulfilled in contrast to the whole book, which he was told not to seal up because the time is near.

But there was a portion of it that was sealed. Now I'm assuming that the chapters 11, 12, and 13 represent the contents of that book. And you're saying, "Well why did he write it down if he was told not to?" Well I don't know what he didn't write down and what he did. But I think the idea is he was told he's going to prophesy again and then he does so. And I think chapters 11 through 13 are that prophecy.

But I think the fact that he wrote it down does not mean that we're not supposed to take it that it was sealed symbolically in the sense that it's not going to be immediately fulfilled. So I think almost everything in Revelation is symbolic including the sealing of the books. So it's just a figure of speech I think that it was sealed. It wasn't literally sealed up.

Daniel: Okay, that makes sense. Also it's not clear, do you believe in like the Rapture in the sense we're going to be taken to heaven or do you believe we're going to meet him halfway and descend on earth?

Steve Gregg: Well, yeah I don't believe we'll be taken to heaven. I don't know any reason for us to go there. The Bible says the heaven is the Lord's, but the earth he's given to the sons of men. Jesus said he's going to come back here. And so I believe that when he actually returns from heaven, we will rise to intercept him and to continue the rest of the way down with him.

So it's like a welcoming committee. I've always heard that "apantesis" is a royal ceremony where you usher them back into your home. Yes, the word that is used there that's "to meet the Lord in the air" in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, that word "meet" is used two other times in the New Testament. And it's when the bridesmaids go out to meet the bridegroom, which is to accompany him the rest of the way to his destination.

And also when Paul was approaching Rome on foot in Acts 28, it says the Roman church heard that he was on his way there and they went out to meet him. That is to accompany him the rest of the way to Rome. So this is the way that that word "meet" was used in the other two cases in the New Testament. It apparently the term also is found in the Old Testament in the Septuagint, but I'm not familiar with all the cases where it appears, probably quite a few.

Anyway, so yeah, I believe that when we meet the Lord in the air, we're just going to accompany him on the rest of his trip down. But one reason for meeting him in the air may be that we are told in 2 Peter 3 that when he comes the earth is going to burn up and all the works in it are going to burn up. And the elements are going to melt with a fervent heat and so forth. And then there will be new heavens and new earth. So it may be simply that he takes us off the ground so that the earth can be renovated while we're in the sky and then we can come down to the renovated earth.

I mean the Bible doesn't put all that together that way, but it would make sense to me if that is the case. Anyway, now of course many people think the Rapture means taking us to heaven. And yet the Bible doesn't ever talk about that. It talks about us meeting the Lord as he's coming here. And that's a different thing than us going there.

And there's no reason for us to go to heaven. Jesus is going to be here setting up his system here with us reigning with him on this earth. It'll be renovated. I mean we could say it's a new earth, but I think it's the same earth renovated, renewed. Some think otherwise.

All right, well we have some lines open for you. The number to call is 844-484-5737. I have a David wrote in and said, "Hello Steve, I have a question regarding Luke 17:37. Is Jesus' response to the disciples' question a figure of speech? The reason I ask is because I didn't figure there'd be any corpses after the resurrection. I thought all humanity would rise to be judged on that day. What are your thoughts on this? Many thanks and God bless."

Well, yeah, when Jesus said, we have Jesus giving the prediction I think of his coming in judgment. And in the context just before that statement in verse 37, it says, "I tell you that night there will be two men in one bed, one will be taken and the other will be left. Two women will be grinding together, the one will be taken and the other left. Two men will be in the field, one will be taken and the other left." And they answered and said to him—now this is the verse that the question is about—they answered and said to him, "Where, Lord?" So he said to them, "Wherever the body is, or the corpse, there the eagles will be gathered together."

Okay, so he's asking is this a figure of speech or are there literally going to be corpses? Well I actually believe this is a proverb and a figure of speech. And the reason I say it is because Jesus also said it on another occasion in another context in Matthew 24 in the Olivet Discourse. He said where the body is, or where the corpse is, the eagles will be gathered together.

And now this is not the Olivet Discourse, chapter 17 of Luke is a different setting and he says it here too. More than that, both cases seem to be echoing a statement found in Job chapter 39 and verse 30, which makes me think it may have become a proverb taken from the Book of Job, which was used in various situations that might apply.

In other words, where there's smoke there's fire, that kind of a proverb. It says about eagles in Job 39 that it, the eagle, dwells on the rock and resides on the crag of the rock and the stronghold. From there it spies out the prey, its eyes observe from afar. Its young ones, meaning the eagle's young, suck up blood, and where the slain are, there it is. That is where slain bodies are. That's where you find the eagles.

And so this statement, "Where the corpse is, there the eagles gather together," seems to be a restatement of Job 39:30, which appears in more than one context in the New Testament and probably is taken to be a proverb, a proverbial statement. Meaning, you know, there's going to be evidence of where something is, not necessarily literal corpses and eagles, but that is to say there's often some indicator of where something is that you're looking for.

Now when Jesus said one will be taken and the other is left, I believe the one that's taken is the one that's killed, because he's likening it to the flood. He says, when Noah and his family entered the ark, the flood came and took them all away, that is the wicked. He took the wicked away. And it'll be like that when Jesus comes back, one will be taken and the other left. That is, the one who's left has simply survives, remains alive and is not judged. The one that's taken is the one that's taken in judgment.

And when the disciples were trying to figure out what that means, they said, "Where, Lord? Where are they taken?" And he's I think the statement is cryptic rather than literal. I think it's proverbial: where the corpses are, the eagles will be gathered. In other words, very seldom are you going to be looking for dead people, but if you're looking for them, there's evidence of their whereabouts, the eagles are gathered there. Now I don't think he's necessarily claiming that there will be literal eagles around their corpses. But I think the statement cryptically means they're dead. I think that's what it means. They are corpses. So I think it's a saying. That's my take on it.

I appreciate that question. We are looking at a break right here and we've got some calls waiting we're going to take on the other side. We have another half hour coming up. So if you haven't called and want to, we have a few lines open. If you call now we can get you in line and we can take your calls in the remaining half hour. The number is 844-484-5737.

The Narrow Path is a listener supported ministry. We don't have any commercial breaks, we sell nothing either on the air or at our website. We don't have any sponsors and no underwriters. So we stay on the air by paying large amounts of money to radio stations for the time. And that money all comes from listeners, if it comes at all. And it does. Listeners have been very generous in keeping us on the air. If you want to help us stay on the air, we are expanding all the time. We're adding five new stations in the near future. All we need is to be able to pay for them. You can write to us at The Narrow Path, P.O. Box 1730, Temecula, California, 92593, or from our website, thenarrowpath.com. I'll be back in 30 seconds, so don't go away.

Welcome back to The Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we're live for another half hour taking your calls. We have a couple of lines open if you want to call right now you can get through. The number is 844-484-5737. If you have questions about the Bible or the Christian faith or you disagree with the host, want to talk to us about why, feel free to call this number 844-484-5737. Our next caller is Carrie from Fort Worth, Texas. Hi Carrie, good to hear from you again.

Carrie: Yeah Steve, I've got a disagreement with you and then a question. And my disagreement would be I think you made a statement about two views about the millennium basically being Amillennial and Premillennial. And I would have to almost disagree and say that the dispensational premillennial view is a lot different than the historic premillennial view.

Steve Gregg: That is true. That is true. Yeah, but the basic divide though is over whether there's a millennium after Jesus comes back or not. And the premillennialist believes there is. Now dispensationalists are one variety of premillennialists, historic premillennialism is another variety, but they're both premillennial and so they're both on that side of the divide.

Now the other side of the divide has amillennialism and actually postmillennialism too. But postmillennialism is not very different from amillennialism except that it's very optimistic about the way things turn out. But they both, postmillennialists and amillennialists, believe the so-called millennium is the time since Christ came the first time. So there is basically those two camps: those that believe Jesus sets up the millennium after He comes back, and those are premillennial whether they're historic premillennial or dispensational premillennial. And then there's those who think Jesus inaugurated the kingdom slash millennium at His first coming, and that would include amillennial and postmillennial. So there is basically those two sides, though each side has different varieties on the same side.

Carrie: So my question would be that at my church, we just had two weeks of the preacher talking about the importance of Israel and all dispensational thought. But he brought up one passage that struck me and I did not get to write it down, but he said it was from Ezekiel and it said that the Jews would look upon him who they had pierced.

Steve Gregg: No, that's Zechariah 12:10.

Carrie: Oh Zechariah then. So he was using this as a proof text about the land that this was a promise and they would be looking upon Jesus.

Steve Gregg: Well, yeah, that's definitely what dispensationalism teaches. And I think even non-dispensational premillennialists probably take it that way too. I don't. I see it differently. Zechariah chapters 9 through 14 have a lot of passages that premillennialists have taken as future. And they think they're about the end times. But actually, that section of Scripture, that section of Zechariah, is quoted numerous times in the New Testament to apply to the present time.

That is to say, instead of talk about the second coming of Christ and its effects as the premillennialists think, it's talking about the first coming of Christ and its effects. That's why you find in chapter 11, which is part of this larger section, His betrayal for 30 pieces of silver. That's why you find in chapter 13 verse 7 the statement, "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, against the man who is my companion," says the Lord, "strike the shepherd and the sheep will be scattered." Well, that Jesus said was fulfilled in the Garden of Gethsemane.

You find statements in chapter 14 which I believe are alluded to in the New Testament as a result of the coming of the Holy Spirit. For example, in chapter 14 verse 8, "In that day it shall be that living waters shall flow from Jerusalem." Well, in John 7 verses 37 and 39, this is said to be what happens when the Spirit is given at Pentecost.

I also believe that chapter 12 verse 10, the verse that you're referring to where it says, "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of grace and supplication, and they'll look on me whom they have pierced, they'll mourn for him as one mourns for his only son and grieve for him as one grieves for a firstborn." I believe that was at Pentecost. I believe God poured out His Spirit, as it says here, on the inhabitants of Jerusalem in the upper room. And before the day was over, 3,000 inhabitants of Jerusalem had mourned for their sins and had been ashamed of their crucifying the Son of God. I think they recognized Him and they were cut to the heart and they said, "What must we do?" I think this is what is being predicted here.

Also chapter 13 verse 1 of Zechariah, which is right after that, says, "In that day a fountain shall be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and uncleanness." I believe the death of Jesus and the shedding of His blood was that fountain that was opened for sin and uncleanness.

So in other words, there's quite a few things in this section of Zechariah that are said in the New Testament to be fulfilled in the New Testament, that is in our present day. And none of them are stated to be not fulfilled in the church age. So the idea that most of these things pertain to the end times and the second coming of Christ simply doesn't appear to agree with the way the New Testament writers understood them. And the fact that Jesus, in Luke 24:45, opened the disciples' understanding that they might understand the Old Testament Scriptures, makes me think that the way they applied them is the way they're supposed to be applied.

Carrie: All right, thank you again, Steve.

Steve Gregg: All right, brother. God bless. Good to hear from you again. Carol from Point Blank, Texas. Welcome.

Carol: Yes, thank you. I've got two questions on Acts 10. First of all, why, you know, this is to teach Cornelius and Peter learned that there's no respecter of persons with God. So then why God raised him up on the third day openly, but only to certain witnesses that were chosen before of God? What was the reason for that? That's question number one. And a crazy question is, what was Jesus' surname? You know, in that same chapter in verse 32, Simon whose surname is Peter. Did Jesus have a surname?

Steve Gregg: No, Jesus was just called Jesus. Simon was renamed Peter or Cephas, which Cephas is the Aramaic for a rock. Peter is from Petros, the Greek for rock. So Peter was never named Rock by his parents. He was named after the tribe of Simeon, Simon was his birth name. And Jesus gave him a nickname, which was Rock, the Rock. And of course, Jesus and the apostles probably spoke Aramaic, which is why he used Kephas.

Now, as far as the first question, why did God only have Jesus appear to certain witnesses? Well, that's the way He wanted to do it. He wanted the Gospel to be preached by people who had seen Him rise from the dead. I guess the other way He could have done it is to appear to everyone on the planet. That would have taken several different appearances around the world. And I don't know if He'd ever get back to heaven.

The thing was for Jesus to go back to heaven and sit down at the right hand of God to establish His reign from heaven, which He has been seated there and reigning ever since, while the appointed witnesses, which is the apostles, would go out and preach to the world. And they have. They did. And that's why the whole world largely has been penetrated by the Gospel because of the faithfulness of the witnesses.

Now, I only know two possible ways He could have done it. He could have appeared to everyone on the planet, or only to some people on the planet, not all of them. And He chose the second course. So I mean if we say what are all the reasons for that, I'm not sure I know all the reasons. But one of them might be the impracticality of appearing to every individual in the jungles and everywhere around. I mean, I don't think Jesus could be everywhere at once. He was in a body, you know. So—

Carol: But He appeared to the multitudes, why not multitudes? I mean, I don't—

Steve Gregg: Well, He did appear to 500 people at one time, that's kind of a multitude. Yeah, I mean the truth is where's He going to find them gathered? You know, I think that when He left the tomb, He left the angels to tell the women who came to the tomb go tell the disciples that I'm going to meet them in Galilee.

Now, the disciples was not just the apostles. He actually met the apostles in Jerusalem that same day. So He didn't meet them in Galilee immediately. He met them in that very day in the upper room in Jerusalem. But the disciples would be all the people who had followed Him. Now, we don't know how many there were. But as you read the Gospels, in the life of Jesus, there were a lot of people were His disciples. At one time it mentions the multitude of the disciples in the Book of Luke.

So I'm of the opinion that when the angel said, "Go tell the disciples that He'll meet them in Galilee," it didn't mean go tell the eleven who were there in Jerusalem, but go and spread the news to Galilee so that all those people that had heard Him and followed Him when He was there would be gathered. I'm sure there was, I mean this is a short summary of what they were to tell. I'm sure there were instructions about where and when also.

And we do read in 1 Corinthians 15 there was one occasion where Jesus appeared to 500 people or more. And that no doubt was in Galilee. We're not told that it was, but I don't think He had that many followers in Jerusalem. He did most of His ministry publicly in Galilee. So my guess is that it was, you know, that 500. But they were disciples too. I mean, He's not appearing to people who don't believe, He's appearing to His disciples so they could bear witness to others. And they did it.

Carol: All right, I got it. Thank you.

Steve Gregg: Okay, Carol, thanks for your call. Let's talk to Michael in Inglewood, California. Michael, welcome.

Michael: Thanks, Steve. I was studying types, which is kind of obvious, Joseph maybe is a type of Jesus or Adam as well. But then I was going over Esther and I was wondering, well, it seems like the king called Vashti, but she didn't go. Vashti of course not a Jew. And then he got Esther who was a Jew. So is there such a thing and is that a type of reverse type and is there a term for that like chiasm or something?

Steve Gregg: Well, chiasm means a literary structure where kind of the same subject appears at the beginning and the end. And as you move toward the middle, each point from the beginning as well as the next point before the end is kind of on the same subject. And as you move toward the middle there's correspondence. That's, I don't know if there's a chiasm in Esther. There's quite a few chiasms in the Bible. But that's a different thing than like a reverse type. You're saying that, I'd have to know what you think it's a type of.

I don't assume that most stories in the Bible include types of Christ. But some do. I mean the Bible in the New Testament identifies Adam as a type of Christ. It would appear that Isaac is a type of Christ. There's good reason to believe Joseph is a type of Christ. Certainly Moses is a type of Christ. David is certainly a type of Christ. And no doubt Isaiah seems to be a type of Christ in chapters 7 and 8. So there's a lot of types of Christ. But I don't assume that every story in the Bible is. Now if you want to put that together for me, I'm trying to picture how you're thinking about that as a type.

Michael: Okay, so maybe Ahasuerus is kind of God, but he called Vashti as in Israel. And then Israel denied or didn't follow him, so then he called Esther who was a Jew. So instead of it being the Jews first, it was Gentiles first.

Steve Gregg: Well, maybe. I mean that would be something a person could use as an illustration. But to know whether that's intended as a type in Scripture would be hard to say. Yeah, because Vashti of course was a Gentile and Esther was a Jew. So you'd think that that would mean the Gentiles are the bride before the Jews are. But actually, we might not see it that way.

It's more like Vashti was an unbeliever and the first wife, and proud and disobedient, just like most Jews have been unbelievers. They were God's wife. And then Esther, regardless of her race, though she was Jewish, is a picture of believers, of faithful. And so the church is consistent, consists of that, of faithful people. So you could see it that way. I don't know of anything in the New Testament that insists that we see it that way, but I don't see anything that would forbid it. So thanks for the idea.

All right, let's talk to Marsha from Memphis, Tennessee. Welcome to The Narrow Path, Marsha.

Marsha: Hello. Am I on air?

Steve Gregg: You're on the air, yes.

Marsha: All right. As a child I grew up in church and they taught me that Adam and Eve was the first man and woman on earth and they multiplied and they replenished the whole world, the whole earth, okay. And they had the son Cain and Abel. And Cain killed his brother and God punished him and took him away from his family and put him outside of wherever the family was, okay. I'm not sure if they was still in Eden at the time or where.

But I just want to explain this going to be an explanation about so I always thought, okay, he punished him and sent him out and said anyone that finds him or meets him and killed him would be cursed. It had to be in my thoughts growing up that it was other people outside of Adam and Eve.

Steve Gregg: Yes. No, no, not outside of Adam and Eve, but outside of Cain and Abel. Yeah, by the time that Cain killed his brother, they were part of a very large family. Because when God made Adam and Eve, He told them to be fruitful and to multiply and fill the earth, which they did. Now it says in Genesis chapter 5 that Adam and Eve had sons and daughters, plural. So we don't read of the names of any of the daughters and we only read the names of three of the sons: Cain, Abel, and Seth. But there were no doubt many others as well.

I mean, after all, Adam and Eve lived 130 years and God gave them the command to fill the earth with their offspring, which they did. And I know people who don't live that long who've had 12 or more kids. And there have been people who certainly in the world who've had 20 and they didn't live but one modern lifetime. So Adam and Eve could have had scores and hundreds of kids I suppose. And by the time Cain killed Abel, which was 130 years after Adam and Eve started, in 130 years there could have been a lot of kids and grandkids of Adam and Eve.

So there could have been many hundreds of people. Now Cain kills Abel and he's afraid that these other people want to hurt him. Why? Because he killed their brother. They're all brothers and sisters. And so he killed their brother Abel and so they're going to want to take retribution on him. So that's why God put a mark on him to protect him from that and sent him away. And he no doubt took one of his sisters or nieces or something like that to be a wife because he started his own family away.

So the that it's not too complicated. I think maybe what complicates it is that people mistakenly think that Adam and Eve only had two children, you know, which would be really a disaster since God told them to fill the earth with their offspring. If they only had two sons, first of all they're not very obedient or God didn't make them very fertile and then if they didn't have any daughters, of course we don't read of their daughters' names, but they had daughters too, we're told in chapter 5 verses 1 through 3. So there's a lot of people being born that aren't mentioned specially in the Bible by name and we don't read of their stories. We only have the stories of some important individuals.

But yeah, Cain and Abel had a lot of siblings, I'm sure. And probably by the time Cain killed Abel, there were probably some nephews and grandnephews around too and nieces and grandnieces. Probably a big population by that time because now I said that Cain killed Abel about 130 years after Adam and Eve were created. There's every reason to believe that Cain was born a year after Adam and Eve were created and Abel the next year.

Where am I getting the 130 years? Well we're told in chapter 5 in the opening verses that Adam was 130 years old when Seth was born. Now Seth was the first son born apparently after Abel was killed. And if Adam was 130 years old when Seth was born, then Abel must have been killed shortly before that. And the reason I know that is because when Seth was born, Eve said God has appointed me another son to replace Abel whom Cain slew. So this must have been the most recent event, the next son that was born Eve took it to be a replacement for the recently slain Abel. And that was 130 years after the creation of Adam and Eve.

So Cain and Abel were like 129 and 128 years old around that time when Cain killed Abel. And Seth would have been born shortly after that. But there were a lot of kids being born in the meantime. It's hard to imagine God telling Adam and Eve "be fruitful and multiply" and 130 years later they've only had two kids. That'd be very strange and I don't think we're supposed to see it that way. I appreciate your call, Marsha. Thank you. Fred from Alameda, California. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.

Fred: Yes, there was this prominent guy and you may know more about him than I do. But I think he was a playwright or he was some kind of anyway his name was George Bernard Shaw. And I remember this guy Jeff Brace was his name. I think he's passed away, God rest his soul. But he quoted George Bernard Shaw as saying Christianity makes a lot of sense, too bad nobody ever tries it.

Steve Gregg: Yeah, well George Bernard Shaw I think was pretty cynical about Christianity. To say no one really tries it is sort of like what G.K. Chesterton said. He said Christianity has not been tried and found wanting, it's been found difficult and not tried. Now to say that it hasn't been tried or no one has tried it is of course a hyperbole. There are people who have practiced Christianity. There have been plenty of them actually. Not as many as there should be and not everybody in the church can be said to really be following Christ, obviously.

And unfortunately sometimes Christians in the church can be so far from Christ that unbelievers like Shaw could see them say, "Yeah, we wish these Christians would actually follow Jesus." And it's sometimes hard, sometimes there have been eras where it's kind of hard to find a true Christian among the churches because churches can be full of surface-level religious people, hypocrites and such. And there are such people. But there are certainly people who have attempted to follow Jesus and some have done so very well that I know of. I read their biographies a lot. I'm impressed how many great Christians there have been, though I wish all people who called themselves Christians really were. That'd be a wonderful thing. Steven in Seattle, Washington. Welcome to The Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.

Steven: Oh yeah, hi Steve. Quick question. I'm wondering if it's possible to sin in heaven. I'm thinking obviously Lucifer fell and he took a lot of angels with him and angels were up in heaven at the time and you hear about war in heaven and things like that.

Steve Gregg: Yeah, let me jump in because we're almost out of time. I don't believe that I don't think any of us will be sinning in heaven. It is true that some angels have sinned, the Bible says that in 2 Peter 2 and in Jude. And many people believe Satan was an angel who fell. I'm not sure about that because the Bible doesn't say it but it's certainly a common belief.

But apart from that, we're talking about people sinning and the only people that are going to be in the resurrection I believe will be people who've chosen not to sin. Now I as a Christian have chosen not to sin, but sometimes I sin because as Jesus said the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Yeah, but my flesh won't be weak anymore. Paul said that when our bodies are buried, they're buried in weakness but they're raised in power. And they're buried in dishonor they're raised in glory and so forth.

So in the resurrection we won't have the weakness of the flesh that causes us to sin. Now I believe a true Christian is somebody who has repented and doesn't want to sin anymore. Now I should make it clear, there's something in each of us that wants to sin but that's in our flesh. A Christian is somebody who has made the firm decision I want to live a holy life, I want to please God, not myself. And if someone hasn't made that decision I don't think they've done business with God yet. I honestly doubt that they've been converted in the way the Bible describes conversion.

But those who have, they're determined I don't want to sin, I don't want to sin. And yet we do sin out of weakness. I believe that weakness will no longer attach to us at that time. And so you know, in other words, we will actually be able to live the way we want to then. Right now, I wish I was perfect because that's how I want to live. But I don't have the, you know, I just don't have the character to live a perfect life. I wish I did. Getting close to it, I hope. Closer every day, I hope.

But the point is, I want to live a holy life but there's another thing in my members, Paul said, that wants something else. And that thing won't be there in the resurrection. So assuming I'm the same person in the resurrection that I am now, my desire to live a holy life will be unimpeded. And so no, there'd be no reason anyone would sin. And there won't be any sins to commit.

Adam and Eve wouldn't have sinned if there hadn't been a sin to do and that was to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Well that was a test to see if they'd sin or obey. There won't be any more tests in the resurrection because those who are there have already passed the test. That's why they're there. So no more testing, no more weak flesh, no more sin. That's how it'll be for us I believe.

I'm out of time. You've been listening to The Narrow Path radio broadcast. We are listener supported. You can go to our website and find out how to support us or just take whatever's there for free and don't support us. That's fine too. thenarrowpath.com. Check it out. Let's talk tomorrow.