The Narrow Path

Steve Gregg: Good afternoon and welcome to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we're live as we are each weekday taking your phone calls. If you have questions you'd like to call in with about the Bible or about the Christian faith, maybe you see things differently from the viewpoint of the host and want to balance comment, we'd love to have you do so.

The number to call is 844-484-5737. That number again is 844-484-5737. We're going to go right to the phones. There's one line open right now, so if you call now, it's a good time to grab it. 844-484-5737. We talk first of all to Brad in Littleton, Colorado. Brad, welcome to the Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.

Guest (Male): Hi, Steve. My question is difficult, but it's just been bothering me a lot. I'm totally convinced that many of the events in the Middle East, but certainly the recent genocide in Gaza and this insane war in Iran, have been enabled by the plethora of Christian Zionists in positions of authority in this government.

You have probably 95% of evangelicals think every time they see the word Israel in the Old Testament, they equate it with this modern state. I am just deeply troubled by this whole situation and this almost seems like something I should divide over. How do you feel about that?

Steve Gregg: Well, that's a hard call. I'm not a Zionist. On the other hand, I'm not anti-Israel. I've never had a political stake in the Middle East, at least not since I gave up dispensationalism about 45 years ago. To me, the issues of war in other parts of the world have to be decided based on the relative merits of the case each can make for the justice of their position.

I don't know anything other than what I find in the media or what I find on the internet. I don't think any of us know any more than we find there unless some of our listeners may have actually been over there. They might have been there at the time when some of this was taking place in front of their eyes, and they can speak objectively perhaps and knowledgeably, but I can't.

I see some sources saying one thing and some sources saying another. The way I see it is neither side is Christian. Neither side is really asking what the will of God may be in my opinion. If the Muslims are asking that question, they're not asking it with reference to what would Christ do or what does Christ want. The Jews aren't asking that question either. Neither are the Russians or the Ukrainians. That war has been going on a long time over there, actually longer. There are other ethnic groups fighting against each other in various other parts of the world.

To my mind, what's going on in the Middle East isn't necessarily more important than other wars going on elsewhere in the world, and I don't pay more attention to it than I do to others. Frankly, I'll just tell you, I don't pay very much attention to any of these wars. Some might say if it came to your land you would, and that is true, I would. If it was at my doorstep, I'd definitely feel it was relevant to me.

Now, to say that the Middle East war is not relevant to me is not saying that I have no concerns about the justice or injustice of things that go on or that I have no grief over the lives lost in any war. I have that. What I don't have is firsthand information about which side is telling the truth more, and maybe both sides have some of the truth.

I do know that from certain sources that seem trustworthy, it sounds like Israel's not trying to conduct a genocide. From other sides, it sounds like they are. I could either choose to believe this source or that one, or I can just say I don't know. I don't know and thankfully it's not my part. Everybody wants to have an opinion about things, and I don't blame them, but I don't choose to form opinions about things I don't have knowledge of.

I see the stuff on the internet and the stuff on the news. What I don't see is who's telling the truth and who's not. As a Christian, it's not as if I have no interest in justice. I have a great deal of interest in justice, but I don't have the information that I would need to evaluate who's doing more injustice.

Also this thing with the Iran war, I don't know anything about it either. I see news stories that say that we're in a very short-term engagement that's doing fantastically and probably going to end in a week or two. Then I see other people saying this is a long-range forever war, we're never going to get out of it. One side says our side is just decimating the enemy's power and the other side says they're doing that to us. I'm not there. I don't know. So I'm not going to make decisions about that.

Now, you asked whether we're in this war because of Zionists in our government. Maybe. I know there are Zionists there to be sure. There's a number of evangelical Christians in our federal government, and they are probably all, or many of them are from dispensational backgrounds. Dispensationalists are by definition Zionists. So there's no doubt a fair amount of Zionism in our government. Whether that is the reason we're at war or not, I don't know.

Some people say Israel pressured us into the war. Maybe they did. They're an ally of ours. Their welfare is even politically a matter of interest to us, just like the interests of other allies are interest to us. I wouldn't have to be a Zionist to recognize that Israel seems to be the one ally we have in the Middle East that is a fairly Western-style democracy. If that's a good thing, if that's something we're trying to promote and preserve, then maybe that's why we're doing it.

I don't know if our government is. I don't think Trump is a dispensational Christian. I don't know what his religious view is. I don't know how much he follows his pastor's instructions. This is the thing, I'm not in the inner circle there, and I don't even wish I was because I'm not sure what my presence there would do. I don't have enough information to speak well about it.

My position is and has always been, if there's a conflict between two nations in the world or two peoples, any concern I would have is who's violating the code of justice and who's acting more justly. Maybe neither side is. Maybe both sides are quite unconcerned about justice, in which case this is just a war of man. No one wins. That's what it looks like to me.

But I assume that the president and the cabinet and the people that are making decisions have a lot of intelligence I don't have about the matter. I don't intrude into things above my pay grade just because they are above my pay grade. I don't have the information to make intelligent decisions. Even suppose I did make a decision, how is that going to change anything? If President Trump calls me and asks me what I think I should do in the Middle East, I'm going to have to say give me all your intelligence and let me see what you know. Or I'm going to say I think you better ask somebody else because I don't know much about these kinds of things.

That's where I stand. When people call and ask me about this war, my position is it is obviously wrong for Christians to simply take the side of Israel because it's Israel because as you point out, Israel the nation is not the Israel in the Bible. There's virtually no continuity. There might be some racial continuity, although that's been disputed. Israel in the Bible is a covenantal nation. Yeah, they were disobedient to the covenant most time, but they still had the covenant. They had a temple. The center of their existence was the worship of Yahweh.

Israel today is not a religious nation. It's not a covenant nation. It's a secular nation. It was not established by any miracle of God; it was established by a decree of the United Nations in response to a lot of things including some Israeli terrorism conducted by Irgun, Menachem Begin's organization, before Israel became a nation. There was terrorism on both sides. This is an ugly situation and I pity certainly especially the innocent parties that are caught in the middle of it. But I'm not going to be making US policy unless I have firsthand knowledge of what's going on, and I'm not in those circles that have that. I do know there's some Zionists definitely in high places in our government. I don't know if they're acting strictly out of religious Zionism. I don't see Trump specifically making other policies based on his pastor's opinions about things. I don't know that he'd make this one on that basis.

Guest (Male): Okay, let me follow just have one follow-up question from a different angle. I've spoken to evangelicals who say Jews worship the same God we do. And I say we most certainly don't worship the same God. Talmudic Judaism does not worship the God of the Bible. And they just say no, you're confused. And I'm thinking, how we don't even agree on what God we worship? Doesn't that seem like a pretty serious problem?

Steve Gregg: Well, I know what God I worship. I'm not sure what God any other person worships. I assume that those who are Orthodox Jews, which are a very small minority in Israel, that the God they worship they believe they're worshiping Yahweh. Now we can say, but they're not worshiping him in the right way, and that's no doubt true. The Talmud is not agreeable with scripture in many ways.

But likewise, the theology of some Christians is not agreeable with scripture. I'm not saying they worship a different God. I'm saying the God they're seeking to worship is different in many respects from what they think of him as, and they often employ means of worship and service to the God they think they're worshiping that are not authorized by him.

Jesus said in John chapter 8 when he's speaking to the Jews who hated him, right in the same context where he says they are of their father the devil, he says to them, "My father is the one that you say is your God." Here's the thing, Jesus's father is the real God, and they said he's your God. They said they were worshiping the same God Jesus was.

They were of their father the devil, which means they weren't spiritually aligned with God, but it's one thing to say a person worships another God. It's a different thing to say they please that God. People may, the Muslims by the way, the God that the Muslims worship is not very different than the God that the Jews worship. Neither of them believes in a Trinity. They both believe in the God who created everything and was the God of Abraham. How is this not the same God?

But I believe that both Orthodox Judaism and Islam worship that God in the wrong way, in a way that's not pleasing to him. I think some Christians do too, simply because some Christians don't follow biblical ways either. I'd say that there's only one real God and there may be any number of people who say they worship him. The God they say they're worshiping isn't a different God; they just don't think of him right. They're mistaken and they're doing wrong things. But there's really only one God, there's not another one besides him, God said. Unless of course they're making images of Baal and Molech, which I don't know anyone to be doing today.

Guest (Male): Okay. Thank you.

Steve Gregg: Okay, Brad. Good talking to you. Thanks for calling. Okay, Tyler in Tulasque, Tennessee. Welcome to the Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.

Guest (Male): Hey. I've got two questions and they have to do with the word or the logos. So in John 1, it talks about Jesus being the Word. And in the Old Testament, say Ezekiel chapter 1, it says the Word of the Lord came to Ezekiel saying. Can that be seen as a Christophany or is that trying to read too much into it?

Then a lot of times I've heard taught in the New Testament, say Ephesians chapter 6 with the sword of the spirit or the word, and is talked about as the Bible. The Bible's talked about as the Word of God. Looking at John 1, would it be more consistent to see those verses in that light rather than scripture? I believe in the inerrancy of scripture and scriptural authority, but do we make a mistake whenever we see the word in the New Testament as thinking that it's just the Bible?

Steve Gregg: Well, somebody challenged me about this many years ago on the air. They said, "Steve, you always say the Bible is the Word of God, but the scripture says that Jesus is the Word of God. So why do you say the Bible is?" After that call, I went and got a concordance and looked up all the places that use the term the Word of God. To tell you the truth, it wasn't clear that there was even one case where the term the Word of God was referring to the written scriptures.

You mentioned the Word of the Lord came to Ezekiel. It doesn't mean he received a Bible; it means God spoke to him. The Bible talks about how the apostles went into such and such a town and they preached the Word of God. That doesn't mean they gave verse-by-verse Bible studies; it means that they preached the gospel, the message of God.

In John chapter 1 where it says the word was with God and the word was God, it goes on and talks about how he was in the world but the world didn't recognize him, and he came to his own and his own did not receive him. Then later it says and the word became flesh and dwelt among us. Those verses about how he came into the world and the world didn't recognize him and he came to his own people, the Jews, and they didn't receive him, I think that's describing the career of the Word of God prior to him becoming flesh in verse 14.

That would mean that through the prophets and through various means God spoke to the world, and the world didn't hear his voice. It does say in Psalm 19 the heavens declare the glory of God. God is apparently speaking night unto night and utter knowledge, day unto day gives wisdom. God is always speaking to the world, but they're not hearing him. And he came to his own, the Jews, especially of course through the law and the prophets, which were God's words to Moses and his words to Israel through the prophets.

Those are written down, so I have no problem recognizing that what the prophets and the apostles wrote down, which God had spoken to and through them, are the Word of God written down. On the other hand, it's the Word of God written down. It was the Word of God prior to being written down. When God speaks, that's his word.

When it says the Word was God and the Word was with God and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, I think what it's saying when Jesus came, this was God's communication to us in a human form, dwelling among us, himself, having taken on human nature. But this same communicative God was communicating before Jesus came to earth through prophets, through his words, even in Genesis chapter 1 by speaking things into existence. That was his word.

When Jesus came, that was this same phenomenon, God's Word, speaking to us but now taking on a human form. Is that the same as the word that came to Ezekiel? Yeah, I think the Word of God that spoke the world into existence, the Word of God that came to Ezekiel and the prophets and through Moses in the law is in a sense the same Word that became flesh and dwelt among us. I think that's what John is saying in chapter 1. How we picture things may not be accurate because we don't know how to picture that, but I think that is in explanations I think what John is telling us.

Guest (Male): Okay.

Steve Gregg: Okay, Tyler. Thanks for call. God bless you. Howard in Boise, Idaho, welcome.

Guest (Male): Hi Steve. In your archives, you mentioned that you might have become a Christian quite young, but they didn't disciple you. What were they teaching and what should they have been teaching?

Steve Gregg: Well, I think I became a true Christian as a child as far as I know. I don't remember ever not being a true believer in Christ and having a in my heart the true desire to obey and follow God. Obviously as a little child, you don't understand much of what that means.

Discipling, Jesus said go and make disciples in Matthew 28:19. And he said in verse 20 to teach them, when you're making disciples you're teaching them to observe everything Jesus said. Now my parents taught me the Word of God, not in a systematic way. It's not like we sat down and had classes on what the Bible teaches. But my parents taught through their example and through their words. My dad would raise scripture in situations where it was relevant to something that was going on in our lives, or my mom would do similar things.

I was raised in the environment of scripture and even read it myself. But when I say I wasn't discipled, I'd say that I don't know that anyone in our church, including my parents, nor I, had a concept of actually systematically teaching people to obey every command Christ gave. Now my parents definitely expected me to obey what Christ said and I was willing to do that. But they weren't Bible teachers. They didn't sit down and say okay, now let's go through the Sermon on the Mount, we'll see how this applies and how you obey this in life.

I'm not sure many parents do that, but my parents did a great job for what they knew. But all I say is our church wasn't doing that. Our church didn't do that and my parents I don't think knew to do that. All the years I spent in Sunday school, they could have been teaching me, that is the church could have been teaching me, what it means to follow Jesus in a radical way. I'm sure they felt they were doing the best they knew how to do that.

I have found in my long life in the churches that those who know how to teach, that is those who have a gift of teaching, are not as numerous as I would have thought. I started teaching when I was 16, teaching the Bible, and it came naturally to me. I'm going to have to say I think that's probably my gift because I didn't it just seemed so easy. I thought everyone could do it. I just thought all you have to do is teach people the Bible and they can teach it too. In some measure, I'm sure they can, but I find that even people who teach Sunday school, even pastors often, are not really they don't really know how to teach or they don't have the gift or something, I'm not sure.

That doesn't mean they don't have something of value. It doesn't mean they're not doing the right thing. It may mean simply that they're doing what they're gifted to do. But I didn't have anyone teaching me in any kind of systematic way, "Here's how you live out the Christian life in every way." My parents did as good a job probably as almost any Christian parents could because they actually did, I remember my mother bringing things up that I was hearing on the radio in popular music and stuff and my mom would say is that what the Bible says or that kind of thing. My dad did the same thing.

They did a good job of calling my attention to the fact that the Bible may say something contrary to what I'm hearing in my culture and that we certainly needed to follow the Bible. I can't remember ever not believing that. But when I say I wasn't discipled, I mean nobody ever sat down and took me through how do we apply all these things that Jesus said in every situation. I didn't mean that to be an indictment either on my church or my parents. I think my parents probably did better at it than my church did, but I think the church tried to do it too.

It's just that many churches discipling people isn't really what they're about. I remember a friend of mine said the church wants to redeem souls, God wants us to redeem everything about a person. Not just their soul, their family life, their business life, their stewardship of their funds, everything, all their relationships need to be redeemed. That's what discipleship would involve, I would think. I need to take a break. I hope that's helpful to you. You're listening to the Narrow Path. We're only halfway through, there's another half hour. Don't go away. Our website is thenarrowpath.com and I'll be back in 30 seconds.

Steve Gregg: Welcome back to the Narrow Path radio broadcast. My name is Steve Gregg and we're live for another half hour and we're taking calls during this half hour as we did in our first half hour, as we do every day for an hour a day. Our lines are full, so I won't give you the phone number right now as there is no sense calling now. But when lines open up, if we still have time for more, I will give you the number. We've got a lot of people waiting. Let's go and first of all, we'll talk to Elizabeth in Lebanon, Oregon. Elizabeth, welcome to the Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.

Guest (Female): Hi. I had a question. I've been listening to your series on church history and I'm going through the Romans 1, which are really great. You had some quotes by early church fathers that I was trying to track down and the Google search wasn't really pulling that much for me. So I was just wondering if you remembered or if you had any like go-to sources for early church history that you could share.

Steve Gregg: Well, I'd have no know what they I've got a lot of quotes from church fathers I use in different contexts. If you want to know the sources for the quotes I use in my lectures, the notes of my lectures can be found at matthew713.com. Look up my lecture notes and you'll find those notes. Now any time I'm using church father quotes I probably have those quotes in my notes since I don't have them memorized. So you could probably find all the ones I use there.

As far as go-to sources for church fathers, these days it's easy to just go to ChatGPT or something like that and say hey, what did the church fathers say about this subject? And it's pretty good. There's other books. I've got a whole shelf full of books of church history, including a lot I've got all the works of the church fathers there too. But it's not like I go always to the direct source, sometimes somebody else quotes a church father and I'll pick up the quote or whatever.

Guest (Female): Okay cool. I'll check out that 713 website and find your notes. Thank you.

Steve Gregg: Matthew713.com. All right, Elizabeth. Thanks for your call. Bye now. Don in Rising Sun, Indiana. Welcome to the Narrow Path.

Guest (Male): Hi Steve. I called earlier this week and was the last caller of the day so we really I had some follow-up questions about the tree of life in Revelation. This is from several weeks ago, maybe several months ago, you were having a discussion with someone and the impression I had about the fruit from the tree of life in Revelation and producing its fruit on a monthly basis, it seemed like we were talking about something that was maybe tangible is the right word, but something that we would actually eat.

Steve Gregg: Yeah. As near as I can tell, I mean that's the language.

Guest (Male): Okay. So it seems to me that here's a place in Revelation, rather than seeing it metaphorically, although I know you would see the tree of life as representing Jesus, but this seems like a more literal interpretation that something that maintains our immortality.

Steve Gregg: Well, I'm not going to go to the mat about how literal it is. All I know is that it is borrowing imagery from Genesis chapter 3 where there was in fact a tree of life in the garden of Eden and it said that if they eat of it, they'll live forever. Now in Revelation 22, we see the tree of life is now there in the New Jerusalem. So I'm assuming it refers to the same tree of life.

Now I will say this, it could be obviously a reference to the tree of life in the garden of Eden and be figurative. I'm not interested in proving one way or the other whether it's figurative or literal. If it is a tree with real fruit that we eat, then fine, I got no problem with that. We're going to have resurrection bodies so I don't see any reason why we can't eat fruit. But on the other hand, if it's merely a metaphor for the fact that we are eating of Christ continually and thus our life is sustained eternally, I've got nothing against that either.

Guest (Male): Well it just seemed to me the impression from Genesis there when God barred Adam and Eve from the tree of life, it was like if you ate one time then you were kind of stuck in that situation that they would have had immortality but without real life, without salvation.

Steve Gregg: Well, when we read a passage, when we say it seems like it's saying this, we might step back a little bit and say well, if I wasn't assuming that, would it seem like it? I don't know anything in the passage that makes it seem that way. God as far as we know had not forbidden them to eat of the tree of life ever until they sinned.

Apparently they had not done so yet, or maybe they had but they weren't going to be permitted to continue doing so. When God said the day you eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you'll surely die, what that really ended up meaning was they were banished from the tree of life, which they had not been before.

Now my understanding is that all things created are mortal and therefore Adam and Eve were mortal. They could have lived forever had they not been cut off from the tree of life, but they were cut off because of their sin and so that's why they died. So I don't know of anything that would suggest that eating it one time would mean that they'd live forever never eating it again. You could read it that way if you want to, but I don't see it that way.

Guest (Male): Okay. Well I guess them being barred from it to me seemed like that was that they couldn't prolong their lives indefinitely anymore.

Steve Gregg: Yeah. But I mean one reason that I think that they were to eat of it repeatedly is because that's apparently the same imagery. The tree of life is found in the New Jerusalem and because it produces its fruit 12 times a year, it would appear that it needs to be eaten more than once. If it only need be eaten once, you could eat one time and it wouldn't have to have any more fruit ever again, you'd just have eternal life because you ate it once.

Some people think that Christianity is like that, that you just you come to Christ and believe in him one time and never believe in him again and you've got once saved always saved kind of a situation. I believe that Jesus said you have to remain in him like a branch on a vine, you have to continue to draw as the branch does from the vine to have the life of the vine. So Christ's life is eternal as we continue to draw upon him or eat of him, as he said in John 6, "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life." I believe that means whoever is eating my flesh and drinking my blood, not just someone who does it one time. So anyway, that's my understanding, it makes most sense of the language.

Guest (Male): I agree with that in this life. I guess I'm thinking in the next life, does that mean in heaven that someone would have the choice, "Okay I'm not going to eat any longer?"

Steve Gregg: Why would they not want to eat any longer? I can't think of why. Well, the Bible does say that in the resurrection our mortal bodies are raised as immortal bodies. But they may be immortal because what we're doing is continually eating of Christ or of the tree of life, whether literally or metaphorically. So I don't think that there's any immortality outside of Christ. That's the point. God has given us eternal life and this life is in his son.

Guest (Male): Right. Well you know the passage, in the twinkling of an eye we will be changed. I had always just kind of assumed that when we're changed we're changed and that we are then forever in Christ.

Steve Gregg: I agree. We fully agree on that.

Guest (Male): Okay. Well I hadn't ever thought about the tree of life in the way you're describing it.

Steve Gregg: Okay, well you don't have to. You don't have to agree with me. I mean it won't have anything to do with you going to heaven or not.

Guest (Male): Well, I'm not looking to disagree. It's a new idea for me so I'm trying to think it through.

Steve Gregg: All right, well good for you. God bless you. Thanks for calling. Gary in Sacramento, California. Welcome to the Narrow Path.

Guest (Male): Hey Steve, how you doing? I have a question, this is something I've been contemplating for a while and maybe you can give me your perspective. It's kind of lengthy. But I'm trying to figure out, the Christianity that I've been involved with and heard all my life is that we who are in Christ are in covenant with God. And I can't find that in the New Testament. That statement is not mentioned. That concept is not mentioned.

What we do have is in the Gospels Christ says this is the blood of the new covenant which is poured out for you. Paul does mention to the Corinthian church that we are ministers of a new covenant, but he also in that same context says the same language that we are ministers of the spirit. The author of Hebrews reiterates the Jeremiah narrative of God is going to make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

The only issue here is for one we don't see God making a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah unless we take Christ as that, which is okay. But I'm also contemplating how do we and I've never heard anybody teach this so I'd love to know your idea in Isaiah 42:6-7, God is talking and he's talking about the servant and he says that he's going to give the servant as a covenant for the people. So in that context God says, which we believe is about Christ, that God is going to give Christ as the covenant. So in that concept it is not us who are in covenant with God as much as it would be Jesus. So I'd like to know your thoughts.

Steve Gregg: Yeah, well I wouldn't take that last point that way. Jesus is our covenant with God. If we're in Christ, we're in that covenant. When you say that Jesus made the new covenant in the upper room with the disciples, that's true. When you say he didn't make it with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, well what ethnic group were the disciples? They were all of Israel and Judah. They were Jews and they were the leaders of the remnant.

When God made the covenant with Israel who came out of Egypt, Moses took the leaders, 70 leaders up on the mountain and there he had a covenant meal with them and then of course shortly after that he sacrificed some animals and threw the blood on the people and said this is the covenant that God's making with you. Jesus took the disciples in the upper room, they were the leaders of the spiritual remnant of Israel, the faithful, the ones who were messianics, and he made a covenant with them and said this is the covenant, this is the new covenant.

And it was open to all Israel. On the day of Pentecost, all these Israelites were gathered from all over the world and Peter preached and 3,000 of them, Jews from all over the world, came into that covenant and after that more and more Jews kept coming in. And some are still coming in to this day. So the fact that a lot of Jews, maybe most of them don't want that covenant or won't enter that covenant or they violate that covenant doesn't mean that God hasn't made the covenant. He has.

And in comparing our relationship with God to a marriage, that's a covenant and Paul does use that imagery in a number of places. You're right, Paul did say in 2nd Corinthians 3 that he's a minister of the new covenant and he's of course talking about his outreach to Gentiles. They were Corinthians, they were coming into the new covenant and so were his other Gentile people he's reaching.

In doing so, they were simply joining into the same covenant that God made with Israel. That covenant was made with the remnant of Israel in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost and following. And for months or years after Pentecost, all the Christians who were in that covenant were Jewish. And then Gentiles started coming in too. Now God has always allowed Gentiles to be part of the covenant.

In the Old Testament when God made the covenant at Mount Sinai, he allowed Gentiles to come in. In fact, the very group that was there at Mount Sinai were a mixed multitude who had come out of Egypt, that means racially mixed, they weren't all Jewish. And then he said specifically if any Gentile wants to be part of this, they can circumcise all the males of their household, keep the Passover, keep Sabbath and be like a native of the land. So there never was a time when a covenant God made with Israel excluded Gentiles.

The first covenant made at Sinai included Jews and Gentiles. This new covenant that God Christ made also includes Jews and Gentiles. But I'm not sure how we could say we don't read of the covenant being the new covenant being made. It was. Now I realize that dispensationalists, and I don't know if you're one of those or not, but dispensationalists believe in many cases that there's a new covenant that God has not yet made with Israel.

But that's because they don't recognize the remnant as Israel. If you study the Old Testament prophets, you'll find again and again and again and again God is saying this is for the remnant. This is for the remnant. It's the remnant of my people. And he's referring to the faithful. The faithful are the true Israel.

Remember when Jesus saw Nathaniel come and he said, "There's an Israelite indeed." That is, everyone around him was calling themselves Israelites, they were all Jewish people, but he said this one's one of the ones who's a real Israelite. He's truly part of Israel because in him is no guile. And so there was a remnant and they came to Jesus and they're the remnant that God said he's going to make this covenant with. So that's how I see it. Obviously people with other presuppositions likely see it differently.

Guest (Male): What I was hinting at Steve is I do believe in the new covenant, but when we start talking about that I'm in covenant with God, that language is not in the New Testament. And this is why I go back to Isaiah 42:6 because God says I'm going to give you as a covenant to the people. Yes Jesus did say that my blood is poured out, he didn't say with you, he said for you. So the language there, and I'm just trying to be precise with language. I do believe that there is a new covenant, absolutely.

Steve Gregg: Okay, so if Jesus is the covenant and we are in Christ and he is the covenant, then we are in the covenant. You're right, maybe the Bible doesn't say we are in covenant with God, although in Romans 7 verse 4 or 5 Paul says we are married to Christ, married to another, that is him who's risen from the dead. That's a covenant, marriage is covenant. He said that we're the bride of Christ and he's the bridegroom, that's a covenant too.

So there are covenant language throughout the New Testament and it applies to the true followers of Christ collectively. We are the bride of Christ, that's a covenant relationship. If you're looking for the exact phrase we are in covenant with God in the New Testament before you'll accept that teaching, well maybe you're not going to accept that teaching. You don't have to, I suppose, but to me we don't dictate the language the Bible has to use to make its point. If the Bible makes its point clearly enough using its own language and it's the same point we're wanting but it's just different words, then I don't think I want to learn and I don't want to dictate to God how he has to say things.

Thank you for your call though. Gene in Seattle, Washington, welcome to the Narrow Path. Thanks for calling.

Guest (Male): Oh hey Steve, thanks for your program and I enjoyed meeting you when you were here in the Seattle area back in the fall. Nice chatting with you. I wonder if you could give a few words on the matter of Christians and civic, government, politics and specifically the church that is the family of God, how we ought to engage with one another using the scriptures and as the Holy Spirit moves to give us wisdom using that as our guide.

It seems to me, especially for example in the place that I live in Seattle, there is so much suffering due to I think people completely disengaged from civic matters that it's actually really painful to watch. And yet among my believing friends, it can be volatile even to discuss patiently and in a mature fashion. It's almost like we're not accustomed in the body to discussing civic matters in a loving way. I just wonder what do the scriptures say, what's your experience, what would you have to say about that whole topic?

Steve Gregg: Well, I will say this, that if Christians cannot discuss differences of opinion about such things in a civil manner, that must be because there's not very many mature Christians around. Because mature Christians don't fight with each other unnecessarily. Now when we have differences of opinion, we should try to persuade each other, but you know what Paul said, the servant of the Lord must not strive but be patient toward all in meekness instructing those who are in opposition. That's of course in 2nd Timothy chapter 2 verses 25 and 26 or 24 through 26.

A mature Christian is going to be able to talk about differences of opinion without getting ugly about it. But I will say finding mature Christians in the church, in a modern church, sometimes is like looking for a needle in a haystack because many modern churches are not functioning in such a way as to produce mature Christians. And the ones who may think they want to often think a mature Christian is one who's been fully indoctrinated in the theological positions of their denomination.

I've actually heard pastors say that, "We produce mature Christians by teaching them our doctrines." And yet a mature Christian is one who is mature in the fruit of the spirit, especially love and patience and gentleness and so forth. So if you're finding that you can't find Christians who'll discuss those things in a civil manner, you're not dealing with mature Christians. They may think they are because they can cite all kinds of theological minutia, but they're not really mature because they don't love.

Now about civic matters. Christians are concerned about civic matters because we're supposed to help the poor and so forth. Christians disagree sometimes about what the most wise and just way is to do so. Some people think, "Well, we should just take the money away from the rich people and give it to the poor." Well, I don't mind giving money to the poor if that's going to help them.

There are poor people who are poor not because no one gave them enough money, but because they don't know what to do with money when they get it or they buy drugs or they do crazy things. A person can get rid of an infinite amount of money if they have lifestyle patterns that simply make giving them money like throwing it into a hole. Likewise, we have to ask is it just to take the money away from richer people? Who gave us the authority to do that? Isn't that what the Bible forbids as stealing?

If somebody has legally, maybe they inherited it, maybe they earned it, who knows, but they've legally acquired wealth and we say, "Sorry, we're going to take that away from you and we're going to give it to somebody who might use it all on drugs but hey at least we're feeling pretty virtuous about it." Now see this isn't generous. It's generous to give your own money. It's generous to sacrifice what is yours to help somebody else. That's generosity.

To elect politicians to take money away from somebody else is to covet that person's money. And then those politicians to give it out to people who maybe the very same people Paul said if they don't work they shouldn't eat. There are a lot of people suffering of poverty and stuff, but many of these are suffering because they simply are not going to make the choices, no matter how much money you give them, the lifestyle choices that will pull them out of their poverty.

And so discipling people isn't just shoveling money on them so that they have their next meal, but is teaching them how to live a life that not only isn't a black hole consuming all kinds of good goods, but actually teaching how to live a life that's productive so they can give. Paul said in Ephesians 4, "Let him who stole steal no more, but let him labor with his hands so that he will have something to give others who have need."

So if I'm going to disciple somebody, it doesn't mean just give them money to sponsor their self-destructive lifestyle. That's not love. If I can do something for them at all, I'm going to do what I can to help them find a way out of that situation that's caused by their own doing. Now again, Christians have different ideas about how this is done. Lots of people feel like you just give people money and you'll feel a lot better about yourself. Well yeah, but feeling good about yourself isn't really what the Christian life is about. It's actually loving people, doing for them what will do them good. And this is where Christians do have different ideas.

Now of course they should engage. How in the world are we going to love our neighbors as ourself if we're not engaging civilly with other people? We need to be doing those things that we can do that will help other people have lives that are less dissolute and more productive and more glorifying to God. So I don't have any solution to the problem with Christians fighting with each other about such things except don't.

Hate to sound like Joe Biden, I know he thinks the solution to everything is just say don't, but I would say don't. Don't fight over these things, but educate, teach, discuss. If somebody won't discuss it calmly with you, maybe they're not a learner. And there is such a thing as not casting your pearls before swine. When Jesus said that, he made it very clear. He's talking about you don't waste your time trying to invest gems of truth with somebody who has no interest whatsoever in learning it and may even resent it and turn on you for it. So you got to use some discernment.

But I honest think a lot of people who call themselves Christians, if Jesus spoke correctly in Matthew 7, they're not really Christians at all. They think they are but they're not interested in truth, they're not interested in righteousness, they're interested in they've got their agendas and they are tagging Jesus onto it like a postage stamp. And that's not being a Christian.

Being a Christian means you're loving your neighbors as yourself and that would be practical like the good Samaritan. He's the one who loved his neighbor as himself. Jesus said he helped a person. But helping a person, he finds the guy in a crisis, he feeds him, he dresses his wounds, he gives him a roof over his head. Now long-term, that guy wasn't living a bad life, he just fell among thieves. But if he was living a bad life and it's going to keep him in poverty, then loving him is doing something to help him change that.

I'm out of time. You've been listening to the Narrow Path. My name is Steve Gregg. Our website's thenarrowpath.com. Have a good afternoon and a good weekend. We'll talk again Monday. God bless.