Steve Brown, Etc.

Steve Brown: Hey, you know that God prepared good works for us, but do your kids? Let's talk about it with Jordan Raynor on Steve Brown, Etc.

Kathy Wyatt: He's an old white guy, an author, broadcaster, and seminary professor who's sick of religion. And he's brought friends. Please welcome Steve Brown, Etc.

Steve Brown: We're so glad you're here. You always have a seat at our table. We just don't let you talk. In case you're wondering, I'm Steve, the aforementioned old white guy. Matthew Porter, our executive producer, is here. Matthew, by the way, has written a new children's book. It's called Mickey Mouse Died Because You Wouldn't Clean Your Room.

Matthew Porter: There's a lesson if you pay attention to the subtext of the story.

Steve Brown: Our producer, Jeremy, is in the little glass booth. Jeremy, you don't know this, but I also have a cover band. Soon, when we start playing, people run for cover. You can do better than this, Matthew. Our one-man IT department, John Myers, is in the tech bunker. John says AI is advancing so quickly that soon you'll actually hear a sigh before answering your dumb question. Dr. George Bingham is the president of Key Life. George remembers a time when wax was something a guy put on his car, not in his hair. And Kathy Wyatt is the soft feminine side of the program. Tomorrow is something called—is this true?

Kathy Wyatt: Absolutely. I'm a journalist first and foremost. Okay, Steve. All right. Tomorrow is National Prune Day. And Kathy, I imagine there'll be some kind of celebration for that in the Lutheran old folks' home.

Steve Brown: I'm not touching that one. One of our favorite people is our guest, Jordan Raynor. He's a leading voice of the faith and work movement and a bestselling author. He also serves as the executive chairman of Threshold 360. He was selected as a Google Fellow twice. He served in the White House under President George Bush. Jordan's newest book, which I hold in my clean hands—I always say when I'm introducing a book, "which I hold in my nicotine-stained fingers." But actually, since this is a children's book, I felt kind of uncomfortable in saying that. So I washed my hands before we came into the studio so I could say "in my clean hands" a book called The Spirit in You. And it's a wonderful book. It's written by Jordan and illustrated beautifully by Jonathan Voss. Hey, first, what is Threshold 360?

Jordan Raynor: Steve, first and foremost, I got to say, it's great to be amongst friends. And praise God for the blood of Jesus that has washed your nicotine-stained hands white as snow. He's now safe for the little smokers above our heads. That's right. Praise God for that. So Steve, as you guys know, before I was writing all these books, I spent the first 10 years of my career as a tech entrepreneur. And my last stint as a CEO was of this venture called Threshold 360.

We've built one of the world's largest databases of virtual tours for public locations. Think hotels, restaurants, shops, attractions—nothing in residential real estate. And so I got to run that company for two and a half years as CEO, and I've been executive chairman of the board ever since then. So I am not just writing about the integration of faith and work; I am still practicing it because I still do have a day job serving as chairman of the board of that tech startup.

Steve Brown: Jordan, you really like kids, don't you?

Jordan Raynor: I like my own. Others, you know. I do. I love writing for kids.

Steve Brown: Did you ever—I mean, was that a longtime goal of your life to write children's books, or is it recent? What hit you and why?

Jordan Raynor: It's a great question. No, it was never on my radar. But neither was writing for grownups, or what I call adult books. We've got to come up with a better name for that now that I'm writing children's books.

After my first book, Called to Create, which was for grownups, this exposition that according to Genesis 1:26 through 28, the sixth day of creation was not the end of creation; it was the beginning when God passed the baton to you and I to create culture in His image. After that book came out and was changing so many people's lives by God's grace, I was like, "Man, I want my kids to understand this."

At the time when I wrote that book—I wrote it in 2019—I had at the time a five-year-old. And so we were reading a lot of picture books, a lot of picture books about Genesis 1. And I'm like, "Man, all of these stop at day six." Day six is really important to look back at all that God created in six days, however you interpret that word "days," but we're missing the passing of the baton. We're missing the fact that God put a succession plan in place, if you will, for cultural creation on that sixth day.

And so that was kind of the heart of the first book in this trilogy, The Creator in You, helping kids see that the sixth day of creation was just the beginning. Then we followed it with a book called The Royal in You, which won the Gospel Coalition's Book of the Year. It's an artistic interpretation of Revelation 21 and 22, making this point that when heaven comes to earth, that is just the beginning because we will rule and reign and work with the risen Christ forever and ever.

And now this third book in this installment, The Spirit in You, is an exposition of Ephesians 2:8 through 10. We all know verses 8 and 9, of course, that we are saved by grace through faith, and not by works so that nobody can boast. Praise God. But part of the purpose of the Holy Spirit coming into us at the moment of salvation is verse 10: so that we would do the good works that God prepared in advance for us to do. And yes, that includes the Great Commission, but it includes far more.

And so, Steve, as my kids have gotten older and I have been longing for resources to teach them these truths, I haven't really found them. The Creator in You—Tim Keller called it a unique book. There was no other book on the market that was really teaching kids that they were created for good works in the beginning. The Royal in You—when I wrote that book, there were three picture books on Amazon on the new earth. There were like 10,000 on the present heaven. That's mind-boggling to me.

And now with The Spirit in You, there's a lot of beautiful books that I deeply appreciate about the path to salvation, but I don't know of any that talk about the path to salvation and the purpose of salvation in the same package. And that's exactly what The Spirit in You is doing. It's talking about what God has saved us from, namely sin and death, but also what God has saved us for: the good works He's prepared in advance for us to do.

Steve Brown: So, if you want a book that'll help you in leading your child to Christ, the first half is designed for you. If you get tired of beating on them and want a more gentle way, the second half of the book—I've got a bone to pick with you about the second part. You know, one of the things you're talking about is the Holy Spirit coming to reside in one's life after they come to Christ. And you named a number of things the Holy Spirit will help one with. One of them is that the Holy Spirit will help you with your homework. That's not true. I just want you to know that. I was a Christian. He didn't help me with my homework.

Jordan Raynor: My kids said functionally the same things, Steve.

Steve Brown: But it's just a great book. And it's not preachy. It's not "beat them over the head, make them religious" kind of stuff. It is a delightful book. And what you wrote at the end to parents just blew me away. I love that, too. So, great book. You don't remember what you wrote? Want me to read it to you?

Jordan Raynor: I do. As narrated by Steve Brown, you can read it to me anytime, Steve.

Steve Brown: It's called "A Note to Parents," and it is so wise, and it's so good. Listen, if you've got kids or grandkids, you need to get this. It's called The Spirit in You. And in fact, you don't find a lot of popular books on the Holy Spirit around at all. When I wrote my book, Follow the Wind, I wrote it because I couldn't find a lot of people who were talking about the Holy Spirit. So you might find, as an adult, stuff here that will really make a difference in you.

Kathy Wyatt: Buy all three of them. Buy all three of them. The Creator in You, The Royal in You, and The Spirit in You. They're the kind of things that make for a great gift.

Steve Brown: Guys, when you're really good at something and professional, you make it look easy. But this is not easy. This is hard work. And we need periods of rest. And so we're going to take one right now. It is only a side reason to make money. But like Jesus, we're coming back. Don't go anywhere.

Matthew Porter: Whoa, this place is huge. Welcome to the Vault, your home for classic sermons from Steve from the 90s, the 80s, even all the way back to the early 70s. The Vault is a one-of-a-kind online experience where you can explore more than three decades of grace-filled messages. Get the details and check out our free audio sample at keylife.org/vault. That's keylife.org/v-a-u-l-t.

Steve Brown: Hi, this is Steve Brown. In case you didn't know, one of the main reasons Key Life exists is to remind believers that God isn't mad at His children. Why am I telling you this? Because our weekly email, Key Life Connection, takes the best of the videos, articles, and puts them right in your inbox. We'd love for you to try it. It's free. Go to keylife.org/subscribe.

Thanks for joining us. We're hanging out with author, speaker, entrepreneur on steroids, Jordan Raynor. And his latest book, which I hold in my washed, formerly nicotine-stained hands, is a wonderful book. It's called The Spirit in You. Jordan, you know, I made reference to a final thing you did at the end of the book, which was a note to parents. And you almost denied it. You wasn't sure you even wrote it. But when we were off air, we were talking about it. So talk to us a little bit about this and why you wrote it.

Jordan Raynor: Lots of different reasons why I wrote it. And I'll just talk through the note to parents real quickly. I wrote The Spirit in You because I wanted a book for my own kids that succinctly and winsomely communicated the path to and the purpose of salvation to my kids and yours.

And as I'm sure you guys have noticed, this book is really structured in two halves. The first half focused on the path to salvation, essentially this exposition of Ephesians 2:8 through 9. Salvation by grace is what makes our faith so dazzlingly different and beautiful from every other religion. But if we're not careful, I think our preaching of the gospel can focus exclusively on what God has saved our kids from while saying nothing about what God has saved them for.

Which is why the second half is about Ephesians 2:10. It's the purpose of salvation. The Holy Spirit comes inside of us to enable us to do good works and conform us into the image of Christ. And we were talking about this in the break. I think this has the power to be one of the silver bullets God can use to ensure that our kids continue to walk with Him well into adulthood. You and I have all heard the statistics about young people leaving the church after they graduate high school. And every single time I hear one of these studies, I hear people who love to blame liberals, they love to blame culture, but I actually think that the church's thin theology of work and our lack of teaching about what God has saved us for is partially to blame.

Because after our kids walk the aisle and prayed the prayer, we never validated their God-given desires to work for the betterment of this world. Unless, of course, they want to sign up to be a pastor or missionary, then we've got lots of things for you to do. But if they want to be a firefighter, if they want to be an astronaut or an entrepreneur, lawyer, professional musician, which a lot of kids feel called to do, they very rarely hear the church blessing that.

Kids often have a stronger sense of calling than adults. But when the church fails to validate those things as part of what God has saved us for, of course these kids disengage. My friend, Skye Jethani, who used to be a pastor and now an influential Christian writer, calls this the "license-to-license gap." He says most pastors just expect that kids are going to disengage from the church from the moment they get their driver's license to the moment they get their marriage license. And what are these young 20-somethings thinking about during that time period? Work. The world tells them that they were created for good works, but the church doesn't, even though Genesis 1 and Ephesians 2:10 makes it clear God has created us for good works. But when we fail to preach that, of course our kids disengage.

So I don't think it's over-dramatic to say that one of—not the reason—but one of the reasons why it's so important to teach our kids that God has saved them for is that this is part of how God will use them to keep them close to Him and close to the local church well into adulthood. And I want to, inception-style, plant that idea in the minds of my kids when they are 6 and 10 and 11. I don't want to wait until they're 18 for them to get this.

Steve Brown: That's good. When I was a pastor, I always celebrated when the teenagers left the church.

Jordan Raynor: You guys had a party?

Steve Brown: But if you say I said that, I'll say you lie. But everybody else was bemoaning it and preaching sermons, and I was celebrating.

Matthew Porter: Silver lining. Jordan, what you're talking about is really relevant to me. Our kids are 11, 13, 15, and 17. They're past the picture book stage, but they are right at the heart of what your story is about. And we're in a season of life that I've been looking forward to where they are coming alive when they find things that just they feel God's joy, whether it's creating a video game or doing sports or doing theater or having an idea for like a business. And when they just light up, you know, I know, we know, there's a meaning to that. There's a reason they feel alive when they're doing things that possibly God made them to do. What would you say to them in that process of going from that early stage of finding joyful things towards the horizon of a career? And what advice would you give parents in that guiding process?

Jordan Raynor: That's a great question, Matthew. I would tell the parent to point the kids to scripture and biblical evidence that that joy is not fake. That joy is from the Lord, can be from the Lord. When you are engaged in that thing, whether it's musical theater or a sport, and you're doing that thing in a godly way, it can bring pleasure to God.

Psalm 37:23, the New Living Translation, I love, says, "The Lord directs the steps of the godly and He delights in every detail of their lives." It does not say that God only delights in watching you walk the lost through the Romans Road. It does not say that He only delights in watching you write a check to the missionary's picture on your refrigerator. Every soccer ball you kick, every violin that you play, every business that you create in a godly way—that's essential—is an ingredient into the eternal pleasure of God if you are in Christ.

And so I think teaching kids this and then pointing them to the fact that work existed pre-sin is critical. Because most kids don't understand this. Most kids are growing up because their parents believe that work was only created after the fall. That is a lie. We all know that here. Work became more difficult after the fall, but God Himself worked. Literally, the only thing we know about God's character up until Genesis 1:26, when He says, "Let us make mankind in our image," the only thing we know about the image of God is that He is a God who creates. It's the first verb in the Bible. He is a God who works. And showing our kids that God creates for the joy of it and that we can create and work for the joy of it is essential to assigning that feeling of calling, that feeling of joy, that feeling of craftsmanship, to their Creator, whose delight should be the ultimate goal of our lives.

Steve Brown: Oh, so good. So if your definition of sin is "if you enjoyed it, it's probably sin; if you didn't, it couldn't be sin," it's so skewed that it's just skewed. It's awful. So quit thinking that way. Take the joy, use it, apply it to your kids and rejoice with them. The title of the book is The Spirit in You. We're talking with the author, one of our favorite people, Jordan Raynor. And if you've enjoyed this interview—we've got a lot of good stuff coming up. If you've enjoyed this time, you're going to love this book. It's the perfect gift to give to your children and your grandchildren, and maybe a good gift to give yourself to straighten out some spurious heretical theological views. Hey, we're coming back.

Kathy Wyatt: Hey, thanks for listening to Steve Brown, Etc. And if you're enjoying the show, would you help us let others know about it? You can share a link, click subscribe on our YouTube channel, or drop us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks much.

Steve Brown: Hi, this is Steve Brown. And I'm excited to tell you about a new offer from Key Life called Living with Steve. Let me tell you the way it works. I travel with you wherever you go. If you need an entertaining conversation or even a sermon, there I am. That's the good news. The bad news is that it cost a million bucks. But wait, there's good news. You can get everything I've just described with the Key Life app. And for a limited time, it's not a million dollars; it's free. Try it now at keylife.org/app.

Steve Brown: Hey, thanks for spending time with us. By the way, if you could use a reminder that God's not mad at His children, especially on Monday morning—that's when I'm sure He is—we have just the thing. It's called the Key Life Connection, and it's our free weekly email. Check it out at keylife.org/subscribe.

Kathy Wyatt: Jordan, Matthew always gives us a list of suggested questions when we get ready to do interviews. And as I've been listening to you, one of the questions that's on the list is "Is there a way to apply the message of this book to our lives and work as adults?" And as I was thinking about that question and listening to everything that you were saying about talking about as kids get older and older and older, it took me back to one of our very, very earliest interviews that we had with you about your book about the sacredness of work and all that, whether you're a ditch digger or, you know, a pastor or a missionary or whatever. And it's almost like, when I look at this book and I read it and I listen to you talk about it, it's almost like you starting right here and preparing for when they get a little older and they can read that. Am I walking down the right road here?

Jordan Raynor: 100%. That's exactly what I'm doing. Yeah, I'm just trying to create my audience for 10 years from now. But this is the sacredness of secular work in 300 words. And we throw around these terms all the time and we never define them. That word "secular"—my favorite definition I found of it is literally "without God."

But we followers of Jesus believe that God is with us through the power of the Holy Spirit in you every single place that we go. And so the only thing that you have to do to make your quote-unquote secular workplace sacred, whether you're a ditch digger or an entrepreneur or a nurse practitioner or a public school teacher, whatever—the only thing you got to do to make that secular space sacred is walk through the front door or log onto Zoom. The question is, are you going to invite the Holy Spirit into that work with you? Are you going to be sensitive to where the Spirit is leading you to engage with other image-bearers in a way that'll bring a smile to God's face? Are you going to lean into that work and spend this life in service of others rather than yourself? There's no question about the sacredness of our seemingly quote-unquote secular work. The more interesting question is: so what, and how can I make this work matter more for eternity for God's glory and the good of those that I serve through that work?

Matthew Porter: Jordan, not to plug another podcast, but Jeremy and I do another podcast called This Is The Show. We talk a lot about work, about the process, about success and pulling it apart and what goes into that. One thing that we have talked about a couple of times is when you're engaged in a work that you know God has called you to do, but you're hitting a wall. And I have come across the idea of how important could a mission be if it does not occasionally bring you face-to-face with doubt. So I wonder if you would speak to that. When you just—you're hitting a wall and you're like, "What am I doing? Am I in the right place? Should I do this anymore? Am I completely off base?" Because a lot of times as adults, we're like, "I thought I knew something. I'm pretty sure I don't know anything anymore what I'm supposed to be doing." Any advice to adults who are still trying to figure out calling and career?

Jordan Raynor: Yeah, that's a great question. And I've been there before. I've been in a project or been in a job, and I'm like, "Lord, I think You called this to me, but it's really hard, and so now I'm doubting it." Here's what I've had to learn the hard way. God absolutely calls us to things that are hard and do not work by the standards of the world. God frequently, I think, calls us to things that quote-unquote fail. That doesn't mean we missed His call; that means that He is more interested in our character than our comfort. He is interested in conforming us to the image of Christ, not the achievement of some material goal. And so I think that provides a lot of freedom as you're discerning whether to quit or persevere in something.

But Matthew, since you brought it up, I want to go there before we close. I think so many Christians, young and old, are crippled with self-doubt around any question revolving around the two words "God's will." What is God's will for my career? What is God's will for where I'm going to go to college? What is God's will for whether or not I quit or persevere in this particular pursuit? You know, it's interesting. God's Word doesn't say a whole lot about His will as a future pathway the way that we typically talk about God's will as any of those decisions. You know what it says a lot about? It talks a lot about God's will in the present. Seek first the kingdom of heaven today, be faithful today. And when God's will does talk about the future, it's almost always in the context of not worrying about it.

Paul in 1 Thessalonians, I believe it's chapter 4, Steve correct me if I'm wrong, is very clear on what God's will is for your life. God's will is that you should be sanctified, to become like Christ, period, full stop. And so long as you are focused on that North Star, I don't think God cares whether you choose this job or that job or quit or persevere. And I'll end with this analogy that's been so helpful for me and my readers. I want you to imagine that you've set up in your backyard a bunch of stuff for your kids to do. I've done this in my backyard. So in my backyard, we got a pool, we got a trampoline, we got monkey bars, we got a football. And I've told my kids, "You're free to go out back anytime you want and play with whatever you want." There's only two rules. Number one, I want to be with you. And number two, don't go beyond the fence because on the other side of the fence is a lake with alligators and snakes that can hurt you.

Now imagine for a second that my 10-year-old, Kate, came up to me 50 times on a Saturday morning and said, "Dad, can I throw the football? Am I allowed to throw the football? Should I do the football or should I do the trampoline?" At some point, I'd say, "Kate, I don't care what you do as long as you stay with me within the bounds of the fence." And so many believers are acting like my Kate in that situation, asking God for permission to do things that He's already permitted in His Word. Whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. The implication is we can do all sorts of things for the glory of God. And so yes, ask the Lord to reveal His specific will in prayer. Absolutely. And do that in prayer, do it with Christian community. But here's what I'm learning. A lot of times God is going to be silent. And I think His silence is His answer. It's His invitation to you to say "choose freely as long as you stay within the fence of My commands and you stay with Me in prayer. You're My child and you are free."

Steve Brown: Man, that's so good. That's such good advice and so wise. I just wish you'd said it at the beginning so we could have talked for an hour about it. Next time, Jordan. You're a delight and a gift to the body of Christ. Keep doing what you're doing. We'll keep talking. And I know how busy you are, so thank you for taking an hour and spending that time with us.

Jordan Raynor: My joy.

Steve Brown: All right, guys. By the way, the book is The Spirit in You, and you can get it any place where good books are sold. If they don't sell it, don't patronize that place. Guys, we're going to come back and tell you who we're going to do it unto next week, so don't go anywhere. If you do, you'll miss it.

Kathy Wyatt: Hey, thanks for listening to Steve Brown, Etc. And if you're enjoying the show, would you help us let others know about it? You can share a link, click subscribe on our YouTube channel, or drop us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks much.

Steve Brown: What if you could start your day by hanging out in God's Word and with some of the most significant theologians, authors, and pastors ever? That's the idea behind the one-year devotional God With Us. Find it now at keylife.org/store.

P. Dawson: This is P. Dawson, and if you're a guy, I want to show you how to recover and reclaim an intimate, growing relationship with your heavenly Father. Check out Like Father, Like Son: How Knowing God as Father Changes Men. Available now at keylife.org/store.

Steve Brown: Believer, I want you to remember that where sin abounds, grace does much more abound. And you will run out of sin before God runs out of grace. Grace, the real good news of the gospel. Find it now on keylife.org/store.

We love Jordan. He is something else. I always feel like after we've had him on the broadcast that I've run a marathon. That guy has more energy and more passion than anybody I've ever seen. And I'm tired. But he makes such a good point. You know, the two halves of the book, the children's book that he wrote, the first has to do with salvation. And we're good with that. But the second half: what are you saved for? What are you going to do? How are you going to serve Christ? How are you going to make a difference? Those are questions that those of us who teach grace don't bring up very often. And it's important, and I'm glad he was here to bring that up. And I thought his comment about God throws the toys on the floor—this is how Fred Smith would put it—throws the toys on the floor, and the kid says, "What do you want me to play with?" and the father says, "Any of them, any that you want to play with, you can play with." And then it helps to have a fence in the backyard with alligators on the other side, too. That is a great illustration. I mean, you can go there if you want to, but alligators will bite you if you're not careful. At any rate, that was a good hour. Kathy, who's going to be here next week?

Kathy Wyatt: Well, you know, next week is—we have them two or three times a year—it's just one of our more stellar broadcasts because it's us.

Steve Brown: Oh, I like those. You know, we get a lot of comments on that.

Kathy Wyatt: We do. That's why we do them occasionally. We don't do them because we can't think of anything else to do. We do them because we say, "You know what? Somebody seemed to really like that, so why don't we do it again?"

Steve Brown: All right. We set around. I expect you to come up with some subjects. You are the executive producer.

Matthew Porter: I shall do my best.

Steve Brown: Because we have trouble talking.

Matthew Porter: I don't know if that's true.

Steve Brown: No, if you don't have subjects which become the gate that we stay within, we'll go places we shouldn't go and we'll say things we shouldn't say and we'll violate your constituency. And the first commandment of broadcasting is don't violate your constituency.

Matthew Porter: Well, let's see if we get in trouble.

Steve Brown: Yeah, well we do that all the time. Guys, we're out of here, but we're going to come back next week and just sit around and talk. And at the beginning, confess our three biggest sins, so you don't want to miss it.

Matthew Porter: I'm out of town next week.

Steve Brown: I'll try to whittle it down. Hey, listen, join us same time, same place. And between now, don't do anything we wouldn't, and that gives you a wide, wide berth.

Kathy Wyatt: Hey, thanks for listening to Steve Brown, Etc. And if you're enjoying the show, would you help us let others know about it? You can share a link, click subscribe on our YouTube channel, or drop us a review on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks much.

Steve Brown: What if you could start your day by hanging out in God's Word and with some of the most significant theologians, authors, and pastors ever? That's the idea behind the one-year devotional God With Us. Find it now at keylife.org/store.