Watchman on the Wall

Southwest Radio Ministries: Welcome to Watchman on the Wall, a daily outreach of Southwest Radio Ministries and swrc.com. God is still on the throne and prayer changes things. Time for a new week of bringing clarity to the chaos. This week, we'll explore the faith of our founding fathers. The latest headlines from the end times will be shared, and today, historian David Barton will reveal the influence of the Bible on America.

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As America celebrates its 250th anniversary, Southwest Radio Ministries opened the radio vault to bring back a crucial discussion of the Bible's influence on America, featuring David Barton of WallBuilders and our host, Dr. Larry Spargimino. The Bible influenced America's establishment of the free enterprise system, elections, and many other facets of our system of government. Rediscover the Bible's importance to America's founding on today's Watchman on the Wall.

Dr. Larry Spargimino: Greetings to all our listeners. Our guest is David Barton, and he's going to help us to think through this question and many other related ones. He has a DVD, a really excellent one, *The Influence of the Bible on America*. David, thank you so much for being our guest. David, I know the answer to the question, of course, we're all familiar with it, but I want to ask you at the outset, where do our American ideals and our set of values really come from?

David Barton: According to about 300 years of American historians, according to 200 years of American presidents, according to over 300 court decisions, according to dozens of Acts of Congress, they come from the Bible.

Dr. Larry Spargimino: Your DVD makes that point so clearly. It's so wonderful, but I wanted you to start off from the outset. I know there may be some listeners who are not aware of the issues that we're facing, and I know you've just exposed this thing and done so much research. As a people in America, we have a choice. I believe it was William Penn who said, "He who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants." Certainly, as a people, I think we've rejected the government of God. It seems that we're sliding into the pit of tyranny. I'm very concerned for our country, and I did want to bring out, and I'm sure you feel this very passionately, that this is not an academic matter. This is a very serious issue.

David Barton: It is. The problem we have today is we've allowed the term "Christian nation" to become radioactive. The President goes out and refutes 400 years of history and says we're not a Christian nation anymore. People say, "Oh, yeah, we're not," because they've been beat up so much by the secular left and postmodern deconstructionists who say, "Oh, Christian nation, that's a theocracy. You're trying to force your belief down other people's throats." That's not what a Christian nation is.

A Christian nation is a nation who has been shaped and built and whose culture reflects the influences of the Bible and Christianity. One of the great things I love is I have a collection of great quotes in the last two to three years of Jewish leaders who are out front saying, "Hey, America is a Christian nation and we love it. That's why we Jews have freedom here." People don't recognize that as part of Christianity, but that is literally one of the things that makes us a Christian nation: we are not coercive.

Christianity does not force itself down anybody's throat. Jesus gives you a choice, and if you choose wrong, you pay for it, but you still get a choice. God has been that way with Adam and Eve from the beginning. It's not coercive. It doesn't force. Other nations do. Christian nations don't. They give you free exercise of religion, and that's why we have so many religions in America. As Christians, we believe the truth will win out. We present the truth, but if somebody rejects that, we don't force them to accept that. That's a Christian nation.

We all like that. We just thought that a Christian nation was coercive and theocratic. We don't recognize that it was Christianity that brought what we call the free market enterprise system to America. We initially started with a socialist system or communitarian system, as the Pilgrims called it. They had that in Virginia as well. Then they discovered two Bible verses that revolutionized them and started the whole free enterprise system. We didn't know free enterprise came out of the Bible, but we sure like that system.

We didn't realize that elections came out of the Bible. We thought that a Christian nation was theocratic, having a monarch who told you what to do. No, from the very beginning, Exodus 18:21 says, "Choose out from among you leaders of tens, fifties, hundreds, and thousands." We like choosing our leaders at local, county, state, and federal levels. We just didn't know that was part of being a Christian nation. So as you go through this whole list of all these behavioral aspects that come into it, my goodness, isn't it great to be in a Christian nation? Now, of course, that doesn't mean that everybody here is a Christian or that you force them to be Christians, but it does mean that our culture has been shaped by the influences of Christianity and the Bible.

Dr. Larry Spargimino: I came across an issue of Newsweek, December 17, 1982, and it featured an article by Ken Woodward entitled, "How the Bible Made America." To read one sentence is powerful, and I'm sure you're familiar with it. It says, "Now historians are discovering that the Bible, perhaps even more than the Constitution, is our founding document." That's not in something that David Barton wrote or Larry Spargimino, but in Newsweek from 1982. It's amazing.

David Barton: Of course, if Woodward were to say that today, he'd be beat up by the secular left for being a theocrat. He'd be trying to cram religion down everybody's throat. Doesn't he understand separation of church and state? It is amazing that simply to repeat today what historians or even media writers said 20 years ago makes you just an enemy of the state. It is amazing how much the visceral type of rhetoric has changed over being able to talk about something that is a historical fact.

Dr. Larry Spargimino: It seems like there's such a drive. I have a ministry with young people, with teenagers, high school students, college students, and so forth. They are so bamboozled when it comes to creationism and evolution. They're bamboozled when it comes to our godly heritage. There's just a flood of untruth. It's simply not true, and it's being paraded around by so-called academic scholars and people who have their PhDs. This is one of the sad things, I think, and one of the reasons why I just love the work that you're doing, and I know you've been a great blessing to so many.

David Barton: It's one of the things that I think there's a couple of factors going on right now. One is we've lost our knowledge of who we are as a people. I speak a lot at universities and law schools. I recently was at Duke University Law School and put up a picture of the signers of the Declaration of Independence. I said, "Okay, here's the 56 guys who signed the national birth certificate. You guys, you're in graduate school. You're smart. That's why you're here. Tell me who you recognize up there. You've got 56 guys."

They could identify two of the 56. The two they could identify were Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin. I said, "Now isn't that interesting? You've been trained to recognize the two least religious founding fathers, and you probably believe that everybody else up there was just like Jefferson and Franklin." Well, as it turns out, out of the 56 signers of the Declaration, not only were the overwhelming majority Christians, but you have 29 of the 56 that were ministry trained and had seminary degrees. Of course, that shocks them all.

What happens is, in history today, we have learned to take the exception of our history and make it into the rule. I was at a black university recently, Southern University Law School, and I put up that same picture of the signers of the Declaration. I said, "Now, we've all heard that these guys were all a bunch of racists and bigots, so I want you to point out to me who up there of the 56 owned slaves." They pointed to Thomas Jefferson. I said, "Well, who else? That's only one out of 56." They couldn't find another one that owned slaves.

What's happened is we don't have a clue that 70% of the founding fathers were abolitionists and started the first abolitionist societies and freed slaves. So we have been successfully taught the exception of our history to make it into the rule. Similarly, with our own beliefs as Christians, we no longer can do the 1 Peter 3:15 thing where it says, "Give a reason for the hope that's in you." We can give an answer: "Yeah, I've got hope." Why? "I'm not real sure." I love pointing out to parents how poorly they've equipped their own kids.

Dr. Larry Spargimino: Parents need to be actively involved. When they're sending their little Mary Lous to a Christian school, they're paying good tuition. They need to know what Professor or Doctor so-and-so is saying and whether or not it's true.

David Barton: Jesus gave us a very wise statement in Luke 6:40. He said that every student when he's fully trained will be like his teacher. Consider the teachers at even our Christian schools. Where did they get their degrees? Most of them got their degrees at secular universities from very secular people. Just because they happen to be Christian—and by the way, I've gotten away from even using the term "Christian" anymore. I don't know that I even like that term, and I don't mean that in a bad sense, but I prefer to use the term "biblical."

There's just a ton of Christians that aren't biblical in any way, shape, fashion, or form, and I have a tough time calling them actually Christian, despite what they call themselves. I think if you're a Christian, you've got to be biblical. I think that's part of the problem we have with academia is we've allowed ourselves to be trained and we get our PhDs from guys that are really secular and they corrupt our faith. We went in not really knowing what we believe, but since he had so many PhDs, he's really smart, so he's got to know what he believes, and we're passing that on.

Right now, statistics show, depending on which study you look at, that our Christian kids raised in Christian homes, in Christian churches, between 71 and 88% of them will renounce their faith in four years of college. They're getting picked off big time, and we're just kind of perpetuating that problem by the way we do our education and the way we don't prepare our own kids and the lack of knowledge they have. They get in these settings and they get eaten up and chewed out, and that's why they're rejecting the things that caused them embarrassment at college. That was their faith and their lack of knowledge of history. They just get eaten up for it and they're embarrassed over it, so they figure out that what their parents taught them must have been really bad. They go in a different direction.

Dr. Larry Spargimino: We are visiting with David Barton. He has a really great DVD, *The Influence of the Bible on America*, something that every family needs to have in their library. It sets the record straight on America's forgotten history and America's forgotten heroes. We were speaking about young people, David. There is a battle raging, and I'm sure you're aware of it, regarding the teaching of abstinence in the public schools. The ACLU and other groups that are in their camp are opposed to abstinence education because sexual abstinence has a religious foundation and therefore to teach abstinence would violate the so-called separation of church and state. It's kind of like we can't give instruction about suicide in the public schools and warn students against taking their own lives because such teaching has a religious foundation and violates the separation of church and state. We are on the edge, or maybe in the center, of lunacy.

David Barton: We are, and it's interesting that with abstinence teaching, we have gone through this period in the courts where they say, "Oh, it's a religious doctrine. You can't do that." The founders were so wise in that they were able to distinguish between Christianity as a theology and Christianity as a behavioral lifestyle. For example, when you look at the Ten Commandments, the reason we have so much difficulty displaying Ten Commandments today is the courts say, "Well, that's theology." No, not really.

Don't steal and don't kill, don't perjure yourself—that's behavior, not theology. Theology deals with the nature and truth of God and who God is. So what's happened is we have Good Samaritan laws. "Oh, that's theology because Jesus gave that." Yeah, Jesus gave us the Golden Rule, He gave us the Good Samaritan, He gave us the Beatitudes—that's not theology, that's behavior. Today's people have, especially the courts and secular folks, if it's religious it's got to be doctrinal, and that's just not accurate in any way, shape, fashion, or form.

So you take abstinence, which is something that the courts have said, "Well, you know, that comes from religious teachings." Well, that's right, but it's not doctrinal, it's not theological. What we have is we have over 30 independent studies out there showing that abstinence, when it's taught, has a definite significant impact. About two years ago, another study came out. It was apples and oranges, and the national media said, "Ah, this study proves abstinence doesn't work." Well, you've got about 30 that do and one that says it doesn't, and it's not even comparing the same facts.

Now Congress has gone in and said, on the basis of this study, we're repealing all money for abstinence education. The President's announced he's striking all money for abstinence education. The 15 billion that we send to Africa on AIDS, a lot of that had emphasized what we call the ABC plan: you teach abstinence, you teach be faithful in marriage. That's now gone away. The State Department has said, "No, we're not going to teach abstinence-related to AIDS education anymore."

All this is changed on the basis of one study that's been disproved by 30 other studies, but it has to do with a world view that's being advanced out there. Again, if we don't know that and if we don't say, "Wait a minute, who cares whether it's theological or not? It works." This is stuff that saves billions of dollars. We have one out of every four kids right now in America with a permanent sexually transmitted disease. Not just AIDS, there's a bunch of other permanent ones out there now. Abstinence works, and yet on the other side we're saying, "No, no, we want to promote sexual activity. We don't want to say abstinence until marriage. That would be really bad, that's religious." Well, that's what works and that's what benefits the nation, that's what saves our pocketbooks, not to mention our joy and happiness.

Dr. Larry Spargimino: And there was a Supreme Court decision. If I remember, it was *Stone v. Graham*, where the Supreme Court ruled that posting the Ten Commandments was unconstitutional because somehow it would induce the schoolchildren to read, meditate upon, venerate, and even obey the Ten Commandments. You were speaking about behavior, and therefore it's not permissible as a state objective.

David Barton: Isn't that terrible if we were to teach our kids don't steal and don't kill? We can't do that. That's unconstitutional.

Dr. Larry Spargimino: It just mystifies me how far we have come. I guess maybe it's 20 or 30 years of this left-wing public school education, public school and secular colleges and universities that have just so brainwashed our young people that we're just eating this up hook, line, and sinker. We've lost all reason and all understanding. It's very mystifying to me and very unfortunate.

David Barton: We also have abdicated a lot. It is the Scripture that tells us to bring up our children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. Parents should do that. The state's not, the church's not. God says, "Parents, you're responsible for the education of your kids." Now, in loco parentis, we may delegate that to a school or we may delegate that to a church or something else, but it's still parents that are accountable.

Somehow, we've just decided schools are all great. I'll just send my kid off to those schools. Parents have taken zero time to read the textbooks, to investigate the policies, to see what's out there. They don't have a clue, for example. We just had a guy in Massachusetts spend some days in jail because he objected to his kindergarten student being taught homosexuality in kindergarten. So he spends days in jail for objecting.

We had the Ninth Circuit that just ruled over nine states, 59 million Americans, that said, "No, no, second-grade kids, it is age-appropriate for them to have sexual surveys talking about the various sexual habits they have in second grade." Parents objected and the court said, "You can't object, this is completely fine." Parents keep sending the kids off to schools not having a clue what policies are, what the courts are saying have to be done, what's in the textbooks.

There's a textbook I can point to right now that teaches kids that says the best form of government proven on the face of the earth is communism. Now why would we have that textbook in our schools right now? But we do, and parents just send their kids off. So really, it's kind of mystifying why parents don't care more about their kids to find out what they're being taught, because God will hold them accountable. They can say, "Well, I didn't know that was being taught in school." And God's going to say, "And what kept you from finding out?" We are accountable. We will answer to God for the education our kids get because God entrusted that to us.

Dr. Larry Spargimino: You deal with the Danbury Baptists and Thomas Jefferson's comments about the wall of separation. Baptist history shows us that Baptists were especially concerned about religious liberty, and so Jefferson was not seeking to make America a secular nation, but to assure the Danbury Baptists that the U.S. government would not interfere in the free exercise of religion. So that's been turned around and stood on its head, hasn't it?

David Barton: It really has. Jefferson said it as plainly as he could say it. He said "separation of church and state," and explains in that letter that that's what keeps government from stopping a religious activity. Well, what Jefferson did was attach the separation metaphor to the Free Exercise Clause. In other words, because of separation, the government won't stop a public religious activity. For 150 years, that's exactly the way the courts dealt with it.

Then in 1947, the Supreme Court says, "Nah, we think Jefferson kind of screwed it up there. He really should have applied the separation metaphor to the Establishment Clause, not the Free Exercise Clause. So we're going to get it right from here on." So now they take Jefferson's letter and attach it to the part of the Constitution that he did not attach it to and get an opposite result, and everybody thinks Jefferson is the one who wanted that. It's not.

Jefferson specifically is the guy who helped start church inside the U.S. Capitol every Sunday, and he went to church there, by the way. He funded missionaries with federal funds to go preach the gospel to the Indians. Jefferson signed his presidential documents "In the Year of Our Lord Christ." He did all that because the government's not supposed to stop religious activities.

Dr. Larry Spargimino: We're just about out of time, and I wanted to follow through a little bit about the Pilgrims and socialism and how they abandoned that because they were looking at 1 Timothy 5:8. Friends, this is really exciting. We encourage you to tune in for our next broadcast.

Southwest Radio Ministries: America didn't become the greatest nation on earth by accident. The principles that shaped our nation—liberty, justice, personal responsibility, and the dignity of every human life—didn't originate in Washington. They originated in God's Word.

In the powerful resource *The Influence of the Bible on America*, you'll discover how Scripture helped shape our nation's founding documents, inspired generations of leaders, and influenced the values that build a free and prosperous society. You'll gain a deeper appreciation for the biblical foundation of America and why understanding that heritage matters now more than ever. The Bible's influence can be seen throughout American history, law, culture, and public life. Don't let history be rewritten. Equip yourself and your family with the facts. Order *The Influence of the Bible on America* by David Barton today.

Visit swrc.com or call 1-800-652-1144. That's swrc.com or 1-800-652-1144. Discover how God's Word helped shape a nation and why its message is still needed today. 1-800-652-1144.

Coming up next, Josh Davis takes us on a fascinating journey through American history with portraits of praying presidents. Discover how some of our nation's leaders turned to God in moments of challenge, crisis, and decision, and what their example can teach us today. Here's Josh Davis.

Josh Davis: Greetings, friends. I'd like to provide a couple of portraits of praying patriots, two of our founding fathers that displayed a trust, a dependency on God in prayer, and were vital in various calls to prayer and the promotion of the Christian faith in the newly formed nation, and even during the founding of this very nation.

One of the founding fathers I want to describe is John Hancock, best known for his large signature on the Declaration of Independence. Has anybody ever asked you, "Hey, give me your John Hancock?" Well, that's where it comes from, right? That's what he's known for—that large signature on the Declaration of Independence.

John Hancock was much more than a signature. He was one of the most influential leaders during the American Revolution. Did you know that his popularity as a patriot often rivaled that of George Washington and Benjamin Franklin during the 1760s and '70s? He was a wealthy merchant and was a man of means, willing to help those in need. His generosity elevated his fame among his fellow colonists.

Hancock spent much of his personal time and fortune funding the patriot cause, supplying American troops with crucial resources. Based on today's valuations, Hancock spent tens of millions of dollars on the American Revolution. By the end of the war, most of his fortune was spent. It was gone. But John Hancock realized his fame and fortune were not enough to purchase freedom. He relied on faith in Almighty God. Hancock was a devout lifelong member of the Brattle Street Congregationalist Church in Boston, and he depended on his faith in the Lord. Although other founding fathers are better known for their deep Christian faith, John Hancock's continual reliance on prayer reveals his priorities.

The father-son duo of David and Tim Barton, and you've just heard from David Barton with Pastor Larry Spargimino, they lead WallBuilders, this organization dedicated to teaching America's forgotten history and heroes, emphasizing the moral, Christian, and constitutional foundation on which our nation was built. They maintain a large collection of original manuscripts from America's founding fathers, including several writings from John Hancock.

Included in their collection of some of the original documents are several prayer proclamations made by John Hancock while he served as the Governor of Massachusetts. He served as the governor from 1780 to '85, and then again a second term from 1787 to '93. He urged his state to pray on October 28, 1784, "that all nations may bow to the scepter of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and that the whole earth may be filled with his glory."

Then again, October 29, 1788, four years later, he said, "that this spiritual kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ may be continually increasing until the whole earth shall be filled with his glory." About a year later, March 16, 1789, he wrote, "to confess their sins and to implore forgiveness of God through the merits of the Savior of the world."

He urged his state to pray, September 16, 1792, to be specific, "to cause the benign religion of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to be known, understood, and practiced among all the inhabitants of the earth." There are many other similar quotes by John Hancock in his proclamations for days of prayer, days of praise, days of thanksgiving. Instrumental in promoting the day of prayer before the Revolutionary War in 1775, John Hancock promoted statewide days of prayer throughout his tenure as Massachusetts Governor.

Another praying patriot that I want to highlight today is a man called John Jay. He's an often-neglected founding father, born in New York in December 1745. John Jay became the second-youngest delegate to the Continental Congress. In 1778, he became the president of that body at the young age of 33. Far from being a ragtag collection of lawless rebels, many of America's founding fathers understood their dependency on the providence of Almighty God. Their faith formed the ideas upon which this nation is built. Their efforts to engage the nation in prayer led to its birth and formation. May this land recapture its understanding that it needs God's smile to survive. God doesn't need America, but America certainly needs God.

Southwest Radio Ministries: What role did the Bible play in shaping America? From the Declaration of Independence to the principles that guided our nation's founders, the influence of Scripture can be seen throughout our history. That's why Southwest Radio Ministries is pleased to offer *The Influence of the Bible on America* by David Barton. Discover how biblical principles helped shape the ideas of freedom, justice, personal responsibility, and limited government that made America unique.

Order your copy today by visiting swrc.com or calling 1-800-652-1144. *The Influence of the Bible on America* by David Barton: a timely reminder that understanding our past can help us faithfully navigate the future. 1-800-652-1144. Tomorrow we begin a brand new series exploring the faith of our founding fathers, so be sure to tune in. Watchman on the Wall is a production of Southwest Radio Ministries and is supported by faithful listeners like you. Visit swrc.com.