Watchman on the Wall

Southwest Radio Ministries: Welcome to Watchman on the Wall, a daily outreach of Southwest Radio Ministries and swrc.com. God is still on the throne and prayer changes things. Today, author Todd Hampson is back, sharing more details and evidence of the rapture. Then, a little later, Lee Cutshaw and Clayton Van Huss will share an exciting update on what is happening at Prophecy in the News.

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Did the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine begin in the 1830s with inspiration from a demon-possessed woman? Didn't Jesus and Paul say that the church will go through tribulation? Doesn't the book of Revelation talk about saints living during the tribulation? Bestselling author Todd Hampson joins Josh Davis to answer these common objections to the pre-tribulation rapture, clear up the biblical confusion, and list several strong reasons to hold this view. Here's Josh Davis.

Josh Davis: Friends, if you missed yesterday's program, I strongly encourage you to go back and listen to it. We're visiting with author Todd Hampson and discussing his brand-new book, *The Non-Prophet's Guide to the Rapture*. We put a bookmark in yesterday's discussion as we ended discussing the different views of the timing of the rapture. Today, we're going to jump back in and explore the pre-tribulation rapture view in particular.

Todd, welcome back to Watchman on the Wall. You address two of the common objections to the pre-tribulation rapture view in chapter four of your book, and it's called "The Strength of the Pre-Tribulation View." Now, the first objection is that the rapture was just invented in the 1800s. I'm sure our listeners have seen videos online or heard people bring up this objection. It was invented by John Nelson Darby in the 1800s, it was popularized by the Scofield Bible, and there was even a woman who was maybe demon-possessed involved in this whole story. What does the evidence show? Is it just a recent view, or how do we answer this objection?

Todd Hampson: It's funny, that is the most common argument I've heard against the pre-trib rapture, and I think it has a bit of a sense or a vibe of academia, so people keep repeating it. If you say somebody from the 1830s invented it and you throw out their name, it sounds credible. But if people would just do five minutes of research and just go investigate it a little bit, they'll see that that lie has been debunked over and over and over again.

Just looking at John Darby's life, he had the idea of a pre-trib rapture before 1830. He formulated it along with dispensationalism in the 1830s and beyond. So, people are like, "Oh, he invented it." No, that's the first time it was systematized because, honestly, nothing—one thing we didn't really get a chance to go through was kind of church history. If you look at church history, you had the creeds and things, ways people debated theology, but there were no universities and seminaries until after the Enlightenment period.

Naturally, after that period when seminaries and universities were around—and by the way, all the first universities were essentially seminaries, it was all about theology—that's why it was formalized then. But when we look at church history, you go back and you find in the first century, for example, there were writings we find that held this view. Not in a systematized way, but it was clearly there. For example, one of the early church leaders, Polycarp or Irenaeus, who was a direct disciple of Polycarp, Irenaeus held a pre-trib rapture.

In 180 AD, he said, and listen to this, "Therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, 'There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.'" The early church, the first-century church, used to say "Maranatha," meaning "Come, Lord." The Lord can come at any moment. They were known as chiliasts; they believed in a literal future thousand-year reign of Christ.

So, that was kind of an ancient pre-trib view even in the first century. And when you carefully look at it, and there's more and more discoveries being made even in the Dark Ages and in the medieval period when the Catholic Church kind of squashed other views, we're finding more and more comments of pockets of believers who held a pre-trib view. And, of course, most importantly, what really matters is what does Scripture say?

Even if church history got it wrong for most of the time, which it did with the doctrine of salvation for about a thousand years—the doctrine of salvation was misunderstood and misapplied until the Reformation—they kind of returned to a literal interpretation method of soteriology. They just didn't carry it far enough into eschatology. But all that to say, this argument that Darby invented it is just, honestly, it's foolish. Anybody who does their homework will see very quickly it doesn't hold water, but you keep hearing it over and over again.

Josh Davis: Yeah, and to chase another rabbit there, I love in your book how you point out the historical movement, that it started with the pre-tribulation view and then through Augustine and some of the others, it began to morph into more of the allegorical approach and non-literal approach. And then that through the Reformation birthed what we see with preterism that is very dominant in some Christian circles today, and the historical approach, historicism, which was reading into the passages of Scripture. And then where we are today with more of a biblical perspective, the pre-trib rapture view, coming back to what the first-century church believed and held. So, I thought that was a fascinating section of your book as well. Is there anything that you'd like to add to that side of things before we go into some other avenues?

Todd Hampson: Just one quick thought to simplify it if that was a lot to take in. Really, throughout church history, there's been four different ways of interpreting eschatology. Three of the four are all allegorical; only one is literal, and that's the futurist method. That's the only one that uses the same hermeneutic from Genesis to Revelation. But in the book, I do unpack why those other three views popped up in church history, and it's very telling. You understand why they popped up with those, but the important thing, like we've been pointing out, is that it's important that we have a proper interpretation method of Scripture, and that is the literal, historical, grammatical view—that the text tells you what it means; we don't tell the text what it means.

Josh Davis: Absolutely. Friends, we're visiting with author Todd Hampson. You can pick up your copy of the book, *The Non-Prophet's Guide to the Rapture*, by giving us a call at 1-800-652-1144, or visit our website, swrc.com. So, we talked about the first main objection, which is that it's just a recent invention. Now, the second most common objection is based on the word tribulation. Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians chapter 3, verse 4, "When we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation, even as it came to pass and you know." So, doesn't that mean that Christians are going to go through the tribulation when we hear words from Paul, words from Jesus, that talk about the tribulation that we will experience?

Todd Hampson: That is a great question, and that's the second greatest argument I see against pre-trib, is "Oh, you just see it as an escape hatch, but we're not promised to avoid tribulation." Jesus even said, "In this world, you will have tribulation," and like you said, Paul says it as well. But details matter and the words matter. There's a vast difference between tribulation or trials in general that all believers of all ages face because we live in a fallen world, versus "the" tribulation period.

It is a specific period of time. We find that in Daniel chapter 9; it's a seven-year period. Revelation 3:10 calls it the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world. It's not just general tribulation, "Oh, things are going to get worse and worse." There's a specific future period of God's active wrath on Earth, and that's what the tribulation period is. Paul says twice in 1 Thessalonians we are not appointed to wrath.

So, you have to make a distinction between general tribulation and the tribulation period. Context is key. I think when you see how it's phrased in each of those passages, it's very clear what he's talking about: general tribulation versus the tribulation.

Josh Davis: Absolutely. So, let's think about some of the ways that the pre-tribulation rapture really makes sense of the Scripture. In the book, you have a whole section where you list the top 10 reasons that you believe in the pre-tribulation rapture based on your understanding of Scripture. I don't want you to go through all 10, but just give us a highlight of some of those reasons why you believe in that pre-trib rapture.

Todd Hampson: Absolutely. I thought I was doing good by coming up with 10, and then I found Dr. John Walvoord has a list of 50 reasons. So, yeah, there's a lot more. But I wanted to give what I felt were the 10 strongest kind of slam-dunks for pre-trib, especially when you look at them together; it really makes a strong case for pre-trib.

First of all, kind of a baseline understanding is, as I mentioned before, Daniel chapter 9. We learn in Daniel chapter 9 that the seven-year tribulation period is specifically and uniquely for the Jewish people. It has nothing to do with the church. The church wasn't even around then, and the whole context of Daniel 9 is "your people," talking to Daniel, the Jewish people, Israel, Jerusalem. I mean, it's very, very Jewish.

And we know now, just to kind of put the pieces together, yes, the Jewish people rejected Jesus at his first coming, and then Paul says in Romans 11 they have a hardness in part until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. Then all Israel will be saved. So, that future time period Paul was looking forward to, the "then," is the tribulation period when God is trying to take the scales off of their eyes and help them see he was indeed their Messiah.

So, that's the key thing to keep in mind. And to me, that's crystal clear in Scripture. Along with that, we're told that the church will be kept from the hour of trial. That Revelation 3:10 verse I mentioned, it has the Greek word "ek," E-K. And there are Greek words for "I'll protect you through," "I'll carry you through," "you'll be preserved." There's all kinds of words he could have used, but he used the word "ek," which means you will be physically removed from the Earth before the time of trial comes on the Earth. To me, that's kind of a one-verse slam-dunk if somebody needs an easy way to convey it.

Josh Davis: We hear sometimes people will say, "Just give me one verse that proves it," and Revelation 3:10 is that slam-dunk, like you said.

Todd Hampson: Revelation 3:10 is it. They have to kind of bend over backwards to say that's not effective. It's pretty clear. But along with that, the church in the book of Revelation, from chapters 6 to 19, during the 21 judgments, the church is absolutely absent. The church is mentioned 19 times in the first three chapters, and not a single time during any of the judgments.

There are people who get saved; they're called tribulation saints in the tribulation because God's grace is still there. But the church is not mentioned again until we're seen coming with Jesus in Revelation 19 with the wedding clothes on and that kind of thing. Those are some of the kind of key ones.

Josh Davis: If I can interrupt you just for a second there, Todd, because I think there are a lot of people who get confused when they see that word "saints." They automatically assume saints equals New Testament church where we are right here, right now. Could you maybe just briefly touch on that and clarify? Because I see and hear that increasingly often from people that say, "Well, look, it says saints. Isn't that the church?"

Todd Hampson: That's a great point, and I understand why there's that confusion. When you look carefully at Scripture, you find there are Old Testament saints, there are tribulation-era saints, and then, of course, the church is referred to as saints as well. But I think the fact, especially in Revelation, the fact that the word for church, the Greek word, is used 19 times and then once John is called up to heaven, you never see that word again during the whole time of the tribulation period. To clarify that, a saint is anybody who is God's child in any era of history, anybody who has given their life to the Lord or has been saved by grace through faith in some way is a saint. There are just different eras with different saints. But yeah, that's a great clarification, I think will help a lot of people.

Josh Davis: Is there any more from your list of top 10 that you'd like to include that you feel like people really need—I know they're all very important, and I wish we had time just to sit down and go through them one by one, but are there some others that you'd like to highlight for our audience today?

Todd Hampson: I think two more are worth mentioning. The biggie to me is the doctrine of imminency. What I mean by that is imminency means something could happen literally at any moment. And I have a list of all the passages, or some of the passages, from the New Testament in that chapter where when the return of the Lord is mentioned, it's described in a way that he could show up at any moment with no signs. If that's the case, only the pre-trib rapture fits the bill. So, to me, that's pretty—another kind of a slam-dunk, but one that takes a little bit more study to get to.

And then finally, one other one I'd like to mention is in 2 Thessalonians 2. Paul clearly states that the restrainer must be removed before the Antichrist can be revealed to the world. We are the salt and light of the Earth; we're holding back evil more than we even realize we are. The Holy Spirit-indwelt church is, I believe, the restrainer, the restraining influence of the church in—you know, we're filled with the Holy Spirit. Pentecost, the Holy Spirit came down; at the rapture, the Holy Spirit's going away. Now, I don't mean he's going away like he's not God and he's not omnipresent, but his unique work through the church will be taken away, and that's what allows evil to crash in and for the Antichrist to be revealed.

Josh Davis: That's a very good point, and I'm glad that you brought that out. Friends, we're just encouraging you to get a copy of this book. You can find the whole list of the top 10 and so much more information in the pages of this brand-new, very helpful, very accessible resource, *The Non-Prophet's Guide to the Rapture*, written by Todd Hampson. He's our guest today, and if you'd like to pick up your copy, give us a call: 1-800-652-1144 or visit our website, swrc.com. We're just scratching the surface on a lot of these things, Todd, but in section four of your book, you encourage and challenge Christians to be ready for the rapture. What's your message to Christians today who are here and awaiting the rapture trumpet?

Todd Hampson: I think we really need to, with Scripture as our guide, reclaim our passion and our excitement for the rapture. You know, there's been a couple eras in my lifetime where it's kind of been put out there in pop culture, whether it's the *Left Behind* series or other stuff, where it does enjoy a broad understanding and people are excited about it. And then it almost becomes like a fad. "Well, okay, that fad's over. We don't have to think about it anymore."

But Scripture never changes. We need to always be excited for the Lord's return like a bride waiting for her groom to come whisk her away for the wedding day. Now, as a guy, I'll admit I feel a little weird even saying that because I'm a dude, but I understand the passion and the anticipation of wanting to be with someone you love. Not only that, but getting our glorified spiritual bodies and having no sin nature and being out of this evil world.

That should light a fire under us to live a life that matters, to leave it all on the field, to work hard for the Lord and occupy until he comes, to live with more purity, to evangelize better because we want to take as many people with us in the rapture as we can. It really just has nothing but benefits. But as I mentioned earlier, I think spiritual warfare is at play. I think the enemy's done a good job of sidelining this key doctrine that is there to give us hope and encouragement.

Josh Davis: Yeah, absolutely. And we know that there are some who are listening who aren't ready for the rapture; they don't know Jesus as their Savior. You do address the future that awaits those and talk about the place called hell if they don't turn from their sins and turn to Jesus by faith. There is a lifeline of hope, and right here, right now, while we still have breath on this Earth, God has given us an opportunity to respond to the good news, the gospel message, as a solution for our sins. Could you share the gospel message with those who aren't ready for the rapture today?

Todd Hampson: Absolutely. In all of the books in this series, I present the gospel in a latter chapter in the book because my hope and prayer is that a lot of people will, because these books are so accessible, will buy them and give them to non-believers. Even if they scoff at the concept at first, there might be one illustration that draws them in and leads them to that chapter.

And what that simply means is we're all sinners. Adam and Eve, when they sinned, when they disobeyed God, that brought sin and death and decay into the world. We're all born in sin, meaning we're born with a sin nature. We choose sin and we're sinners. We're so far from God, we can't work enough to be right with him. We can't be good enough no matter how hard we try. That's the message of every other world religion is "let me work to get to God," but God said, "No, I'm going to send my Son to die so that I can come to you."

When we put our faith in Jesus Christ, God then sees us through the purity of Jesus. He doesn't see our sin anymore. So, rather than trying to work for our salvation, we simply cast our need at the feet of the Lord and say, "I can't do it. I need your salvation. I accept your gift of salvation. Come into my heart. I will follow you to the best of my ability, even though we mess up daily, but I want a relationship with you, Lord."

So, that's really what it is, is a relationship with the Lord where we believe who Jesus said he was and that his death on the cross paid for our sins and that we can be right with God. And that's the beauty of it. Biblical Christianity alone in the world is the one belief system that teaches—and it's true—that you can know today that you're right with God and you're going to heaven. Jesus said, "These things I've written so that you may know that you have eternal life." So we can know now just by placing our faith in the Son of God and believing him for salvation. So I encourage anybody who's listening who has not done that to do that today.

Josh Davis: Yes, absolutely. And friends, if you're listening and that's your heart, please reach out to our ministry today: 1-800-652-1144. We'll be glad to give you some free resources. And maybe you're just starting this journey with Jesus by faith. We'll be glad to send you some free resources that will help you understand how you can be saved and take those first steps as a new follower of the Lord Jesus Christ. Again, our phone number: 1-800-652-1144 or visit our website, swrc.com. Well, Todd, thank you so much for your time, and I strongly encourage everyone: pick up your copy of *The Non-Prophet's Guide to the Rapture*. Todd, thank you so much for joining us on these programs.

Todd Hampson: You bet, Josh. And thanks for your ministry and everything that you all are doing there. This is a co-labor event, and we're trying to reach the world for Christ, so keep it up.

Josh Davis: Yes, amen. And like I've said to you and I know it's your heart as well, you know, God has given us this window of time, this moment, this opportunity, and we want to do everything that we can to get out this message while we still have this window open.

Todd Hampson: Amen. Amen.

Southwest Radio Ministries: Today, we are excited to spotlight Todd's brand-new book, *The Non-Prophet's Guide to the Rapture*. The doctrine of the rapture is criticized and disputed by many people today, but when you take a close look at church history and the witness of Scripture, you'll discover for yourself the clear reality of this future event and the profound impact it can have on your life in the present.

*The Non-Prophet's Guide to the Rapture* combines engaging illustrations and down-to-earth explanations to show you precisely what church history and Scripture reveal about the rapture. Find clear answers to challenging questions, including what is the rapture and when will it occur? Is talk of the end times and the rapture just a distracting sideshow for sensationalists? What did the early church believe about this event and what does God's Word say? Order *The Non-Prophet's Guide to the Rapture* today when you call 1-800-652-1144 or you can order on our website, swrc.com.

In the same way that an upcoming match or game prompts an athlete to train with intensity and focus, the reality of the rapture can fill your every thought, word, and deed with power and purpose. So get ready to discover how living with God's future promises in mind can fill you with more confidence and hope today. *The Non-Prophet's Guide to the Rapture*, 1-800-652-1144.

Clayton Van Huss: Well, I'm so glad you joined us. I'm Clayton Van Huss, sitting in here in the studio today with Lee Cutshaw, and she is of course our editor for *Prophecy in the News* magazine, which is a resource that if you don't have it, you need it. Lee, it's great having you doing this magazine. Of all of the magazines that are out there on this sort of topic, on the idea of eschatology and a biblical view of the end times, *Prophecy in the News* is hands down the best.

Lee Cutshaw: Oh, Clayton, that's so kind of you. Of course, you're one of our regular contributors.

Clayton Van Huss: Well, you're right. Sometimes it's not as good as other times.

Lee Cutshaw: No, it's always fabulous, and we love your particular perspectives from ancient times and ancient lands as well as apologetics. But we're very blessed to have this medium through which we can actually talk about these things these days.

Clayton Van Huss: It's great. And so we are excited about the upcoming issue. We are looking at a special issue about young Christians. So who's this geared towards?

Lee Cutshaw: Well, hopefully there will be young Christians who will pick up or be given this version or edition of the magazine, but it's for people of all ages who care about what's happening with our young people today, and especially those who care about creating a generation going forward, or generations going forward, to carry forth the Christian faith.

Clayton Van Huss: Yeah, and I like that you say it's for people who care, because it's very easy—and I'm learning this the older I get. When I was young, I used to hear people say stuff and be like, "Why would they say that?" But the older I get, the more I go, "Oh, young people." And that's not what this is about. This is about how do we help, how do we step in. And you know, the Bible talks about in the New Testament, talks about the elders in the church going to the younger people and leading and guiding and discipling.

And so that's what we want here. This is not about what's wrong with kids; it's about the minefields that they're walking through and how do we help. And there are a lot of articles in here that are very helpful for young people. Our flagship article in this one, you're telling me what a former student of yours wrote this?

Lee Cutshaw: Yes, Olivia Lager, she used to be Olivia Presson. She is a lovely young Christian missionary, and she and her husband travel the country working with youth groups, young people, wherever they go, in camps and other kinds of Christian settings. And she has written an article on what's happening with American Christianity, especially among the youth, what's squelching it, and what is it like to be a young conservative Christian nowadays.

Clayton Van Huss: Yeah, that cannot be easy because I know we talk in this magazine about things like socialism. This is definitely an issue of *Prophecy in the News* magazine that you don't want to miss. Lee Cutshaw, our editor, thank you so much for joining us today.

Lee Cutshaw: Thank you, Clayton. I hope that everyone will get a copy of the magazine. They can do that by calling 1-800-652-1144 or visit us online at swrc.com.

Southwest Radio Ministries: *The Non-Prophet's Guide to the Rapture* by Todd Hampson combines engaging illustrations and down-to-earth explanations to show you precisely what church history and Scripture reveal about the rapture. Order *The Non-Prophet's Guide to the Rapture* today when you call 1-800-652-1144. You can also order on our website, swrc.com.

In the same way that an upcoming match or game prompts an athlete to train with intensity and focus, the reality of the rapture can fill your every thought, word, and deed with power and purpose. So get ready to discover how living with God's future promises in mind can fill you with more confidence and hope today. *The Non-Prophet's Guide to the Rapture*, 1-800-652-1144. Tomorrow, Josh Davis shares headlines from the end times and helps us know how we should live in these crucial days. Be sure to tune in on your favorite radio station or by downloading our free SWRC mobile app. Watchman on the Wall is a production of Southwest Radio Ministries, and we're here because of you. So thank you for your continued support. Please visit swrc.com.