Watchman on the Wall

Guest (Male): Welcome to Watchman on the Wall, a daily outreach of Southwest Radio Ministries and swrc.com. God is still on the throne, and prayer changes things.

Today, our host Dr. Larry Spargimino continues his discussion of all things Revelation with author Dr. Douglas Stauffer. Prophecy in the News, our weekly television program, is now available on our SWRC mobile app. In addition to this daily program, you can now watch Prophecy in the News on the mobile app. Brand new episodes are released each week and are full of biblical insight and encouragement.

The mobile app is free to download, just visit your App Store and search for SWRC. The SWRC mobile app, home to Watchman on the Wall and Prophecy in the News. And please remember this program, Watchman on the Wall, as well as Prophecy in the News television and magazine, our books and newsletter, are all made possible by you. That's right, your best gift this week is needed, so please give. Call 1-800-652-1144 or visit swrc.com and give your gift there. Thank you, friends, for your support. Now, here's our host, Dr. Larry Spargimino.

Larry Spargimino: We are back with Dr. Douglas Stauffer. In our previous interview, we were doing a bird's eye view of Dr. Stauffer's new book, *The Illumination of the Book of Revelation Book Two*. We were talking about the trumpet judgments and the escalation of that, the intensification. So Douglas, welcome again, and let's pick up on that theme.

Douglas Stauffer: Well, thank you, Larry. It's great to be with you again. We were talking about the trumpet judgments and how things moved from the seals to those trumpets and in the intensification that I mentioned. I'll go ahead and do a little bit of review from the last time, but expanding it a little bit. The earlier judgments are limited. They affect portions. If you'll read the Bible in Revelation, it will say a third of this or a third of that. But as you move forward, those limitations begin to expand beyond the third of the city or a third. And the scope increases, the impact becomes more widespread.

This progression shows that God is escalating judgment as the world continues to reject him. It's not random. It's deliberate. It's measured, and it's increasing in severity. And yet, the world is not going to respond any other way than they already have. They're going to refuse to repent. That's just terrible that that's the way it's going to happen. But that's because man refuses to serve the creator who created him and created all things. And when he finally brings his judgment down in a very real way and very evident, they're still going to refuse.

Larry Spargimino: Right. Well, as I've read your book, and as I hear you speak, you speak with what should I say? You go for the details. There are a lot of people today who are preterist and who are amillennial and they take an allegorical approach. Now, at one time, that was what I did. I took an allegorical approach.

But I want to emphasize, and you do a very, very good job in your preaching and in your teaching, that if you take the allegorical approach, you're very careless. You know what I mean? Because, well, it might mean this, it might mean that, and so on and so forth. But if you are faithful to the text of the Bible, and I'm really speaking, and I know there are a lot of people of reform persuasion, postmillennial and things of that sort.

The revelation to me was when I started taking it very literally or at least very straightforward and not playing games or playing footsie. Well, it might be this, it might be that and so forth. Wow. The book of Revelation opened and it became very powerful to me. And not only that, and this is a testimony to our listeners, I really felt like I was making progress because I was being honest with the word of God, even the book of Revelation, which I think so many, if you go back to the early church, Augustine and so on and so forth, boy, they really did a mess with it.

They got into all kinds of trouble. Nobody knew exactly what the book of Revelation was all about. Well, it's all going to turn out very well. I think that's a pan theology. I believe in pan theology. It'll all pan out. I did want to mention that to you because I know there are a lot of our listeners who know I have written a book on Calvinism and I've changed from amillennial to premillennial approach and I did want to interject that. So thank you, dear brother, so much for getting into the details and for taking the text of scripture even in the book of Revelation very, very seriously.

Douglas Stauffer: Well, what I would say to you, Larry, is you became more like Jesus. Because with this one thought, he spoke with authority. When you were saying that and you said the way that I was, it'll all pan out or whatever terminology you would look at, I said it could be this or it could be this. You speak now with authority because that's what the Bible gives you from a Bible-believing perspective.

When you are in those areas of esoteric thought, really, it ends up being where you can't make a determinative statement about anything. You just have to say, well, you know, it could be. And that's not what I hear out of Larry Spargimino ever since I've known him. And that's why you've written the books and me too. I've written things that I go back and I learn and I grow and I mature. I've been saved for 46 years, but I tell my church all the time, I'm growing and I'm gonna grow and learn and study until the day I die and will always be a student of the Bible. And I think that's what changed in both of us.

Larry Spargimino: Amen. That's very well put. What is happening spiritually behind these judgments that we've been talking about and studying?

Douglas Stauffer: Well, everything in Revelation, or I should say behind everything in Revelation, is a spiritual conflict. Satan's actively working through systems and governments and leaders to oppose God's plan. While at the same time, God is executing judgment and preparing for the return of Christ. That's Revelation 19. So what appears to be political or natural on the surface is the visible side of an invisible battle that's been going on since the beginning of time.

Revelation pulls back the curtain and reveals the reality of the whole thing. Revelation is a phenomenal book. I've had people as I've traveled the country tell me, well, I've read every book of the Bible but I don't read Revelation because it's scary. I said, are you saved? And they say, yes. And I'd say, well, then you shouldn't be scared about something that is not going to happen while you're here. And they just look at me.

And then later on, I'll be teaching a week through the whole book of Revelation and they'll come in and they'll say, you're right. I've been reading it and when you tell me that, I'm not scared. One pastor down in Naples came to me and he said, hey, by the way, this isn't going to be a scary teaching, is it? Because I'm going through the whole book of Revelation with PowerPoint. And I go, no. I said, I will emphasize over and over again that the church will be absent. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. He's going to rapture us up, he's going to glorify our bodies. He's going to change us. All of Revelation, other than the first parts, which are very positive talking about the churches, none of this stuff—mark of the beast, the antichrist, the seals, the trumpets, whatever you look at, those judgments—we're not going to be here. And I say that if you're saved.

Larry Spargimino: Amen. So why do people still refuse to repent despite everything happening? In fact, it says and yet they repented not. Well, boy, that seems like, hey, what's wrong with you? I mean, it's obvious that something big is going on and that God is doing this. So why don't they repent and turn and ask for mercy?

Douglas Stauffer: And that's a great question, but, even today when they see everything God is doing, they see his creation and yet they say we come from apes or abortion is just a woman's choice. Why don't they repent of some of those acts? Why don't they accept Christ? And it's really the same thing. The only difference is that God hasn't brought really judgment. You could say World War I, World War II is judgment. You could look at those things but not like Revelation's going to be.

So judgment doesn't really soften a hard heart. It just reveals it for what it is. Men love darkness rather than light. Even when faced with clear evidence of judgment, they cling to their sin. So instead of turning to God, they harden themselves further. That shows the depth of man's rebellion apart from God and explains why judgment alone does not produce repentance.

Judgment is coming because God's bringing everything to a finale. And that's what Revelation is. It's like, look, I've had my church down there. I've raptured them out. Now there's no believers, and there will be believers when they convert after the rapture of the church. But at the rapture of the church, all believers are gone. Can you imagine? We've got the internet and pornography, we've got first amendment rights to have this or that on every corner of the globe or of the United States alone where it's all justified by it's an expression of your first amendment to have a strip joint. Can you imagine when there is no Christianity here to stop the degradation of society? It's going to be Katie bar the door and then God's just going to judge them according to their works.

Larry Spargimino: Well, just like you're speaking about how judgment doesn't really change hearts, I've noticed, and I've read some things about it, normally you would think that when you witness to an elderly person, somebody who's obviously not going to be around too much longer, rather than they being open and receptive, it seems like at least in my experience and I've read some things about how people harden their hearts. It seems to me that rather than being open, they harden their hearts. And that's very shocking to me. I would think if I'm old, if I'm decrepit, and if the doctor says, hey, take care, get your papers in order, I'd want to know about heaven. But people for some reason don't seem to respond in that way.

Douglas Stauffer: And I agree. I mean, I just came out of three surgeries, two emergency rooms, three stents in my kidney, two and a half months of really losing all of my stamina and energy. And I just came out of it about two weeks ago. I was working this morning and I put in about an hour and ten minutes hanging some signs on the main highway, and I'm worn out physically.

So during that time of intense pain and personal taking stock in where I am, I look to God and said, Lord, I want to do whatever you want me to do. I'm not doing this just because I'm going through this, but going through this certainly showed me how precarious it is to have not so great health for a short period of time. I knew I was going to probably come out on the other end once all the surgeries were done and the stents are out. But boy, it was a wake-up call to me to say I want to put all my life, all my energy into Jesus Christ. And that's where I am today.

Larry Spargimino: Amen. Hallelujah. Well, here is a question regarding Revelation chapter 12. It's really a good question and I know you're going to have a very, very good answer. So, Douglas, when we reach Revelation 12, the book seems to go backwards. What is happening? What's the meaning of that?

Douglas Stauffer: Well, Revelation chapter 12 is not restarting. It's explaining. Up through chapter 11, you see the events of the tribulation unfolding, but when you come to chapter 12, God pulls back the curtain and shows why these events are happening. It's like stepping behind the scenes. You move from what is happening on earth to what is spiritually driving the events.

And by the way, this is one of the keys to the book of Revelation, Revelation chapter 12. It doesn't just move forward, it cycles back, covering the same period again from a different perspective. So it's not repeating by accident, it's expanding on purpose, to give you a fuller understanding of the events and the conflict behind what all is going on.

Larry Spargimino: Well, Douglas, why is it critical to understand this section, Revelation chapter 12, to interpret the whole book?

Douglas Stauffer: Well, that's a great question, and I think when I saw this truth, it was so eye-opening to me because Revelation chapter 12 reveals the central conflict of the tribulation and really the central conflict of all the Bible. From this point forward, everything comes into focus. Satan opposing God's plan, Israel at the center of that conflict, and then Christ as the focal point of it all.

Without chapter 12, the rest of Revelation can feel like a series of disconnecting events. But with it, you see that everything flows out of a single spiritual war being played out. To me, it's amazing. When you read Revelation chapter 12, I think I called it the hinge on which Revelation is held together, the hinge, sort of like the page is turning. It shows not just what is happening, but why it's happening. I love to know what's going to happen, but I also want to know why. And Revelation chapter 12 explains that.

Larry Spargimino: Our toll-free number is 1-800-652-1144. Give us a call. We would love to send you a copy of *The Illumination of the Book of Revelation Book Two*. We also have Book One available to our listeners. I'm fascinated always with the two witnesses. So many are fascinated with them, and here is a breakdown of Revelation 11. I want to share this with you so you see how the book is organized and how many things are revealed.

So the first part, in the mouth of two witnesses, then the two witnesses' role in ministry, and then it speaks about the two witnesses testifying, and then it goes to the two witnesses' heavenly summons, and then at the very end, earthly chaos to divine reign. Deep truths are made plain in *The Illumination of the Book of Revelation Book Two*. Book Two covers Revelation chapters 8 through 22. Okay, let's go on, Douglas, and I really appreciate, like I said before, your solid answers. They're concise to the point and above all they certainly stick with the text of scripture. Revelation 12 introduces a woman, a child, and a dragon. Who are they?

Douglas Stauffer: Well, that is a great question, Larry. I guess it depends on who you ask. I mean, we go to the Bible, it's very evident who they are. The woman is Israel, the man child is Jesus Christ, the dragon is Satan. And again, this chapter summarizes both history and prophecy. Christ coming through Israel, Satan attempting to destroy him, and then turning his attention on the destruction of Israel when he fails to destroy the child. And he did everything he could, just like he did with Moses in the Old Testament as a picture of Jesus Christ. But it compresses the entire conflict into one clear picture in Revelation chapter 12.

Larry Spargimino: Well, why is Satan so focused on destroying the child and then the woman?

Douglas Stauffer: And again, it's because everything centers on Christ. If Satan could have destroyed the child, that is the child Jesus, he could have thwarted redemption. Now we know he couldn't do that because God was going to win ultimately. But you know what stops Satan from knowing that? The same thing that stops people from coming to Christ today or in the future: pride, pride, pride.

So when that failed, he turned his hatred toward Israel. The nation through whom Christ came and through whom God will fulfill his promises. The word of God came through the nation of Israel. And his strategy is simple, really. Let's just simplistically nail this down. Attack what God is using. So where is his attack today? It's on Bible-believing Christianity. What we have today is that people are looking to be entertained in Christianity. What we really need is Bible preaching, Bible teaching, Bible focus, Bible. And if we stayed in the Bible and stayed in focus with what God wants us to do, we would find that God would smile down from heaven and say, hey, you're on track, church. You're on track, individual. You're on track. Keep going the way you're going and then you will be able to help others to see truth and the truth will make you free.

Larry Spargimino: I love everything that you've said, but what really sticks with me is that, as you've pointed out, Satan's smart. He knows what's going to happen, but because of his pride. And I think that that happens so many times in people today in their hearts. There's conviction of sin, but they're fighting the Lord. The Holy Spirit is knocking, but they will not surrender. Why? Because of pride.

And I think that's the greatest of sins when you think about man today resisting Almighty God and all the wonderful things that God has done, how gracious he is and the many evidences that the Bible is the written word of God. Very clear. I don't have any doubt about the Bible that it's not man-made, and yet people don't accept it why they're holding on to their pride. They're holding on to their autonomy.

And friends, this is not necessarily an evangelistic program, but I want to appeal to you. Are you filled with pride? Do you know that Jesus is real? That he's coming? That there is a heaven and that there is a hell? And yet you will not surrender. What is that but pride? Even pride did Lucifer in. So I pray that through this program and maybe other things, maybe you do go to a church, maybe you don't, that you would see that pride is sending you in the wrong direction.

Please, I beg of you, and I know Dr. Stauffer's an evangelist, he would want me to say this because there's nothing better, nothing more important than to receive Jesus Christ and to receive eternal life. What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses his soul? We don't want that to happen to you. Southwest Radio Church has always been mission-minded and evangelistic and, Douglas, this is not exactly asking you the question, but this is so important. How many people do you know who are just hanging on to pride when pride is nothing? Jesus is everything. Douglas, did you want to add anything to that invitation?

Douglas Stauffer: Well, yes. I'd say you said it all, but yes, of course I do. I'm a preacher like you and, you know, you give us a mic, we'll talk. What I would say is, hell is God's judgment on sin in the future and war is God's judgment on sin in the here and now. And that's been said by others, but when you look at pride, pride cometh before contention and a haughty spirit before the fall.

And what you have is that you look at the devil. Pride kept him from doing God's plan in his life. He fell from heaven because he said, I will be like the Most High. I'll be over God. I, I, I. Five times. And because of that, he is where he is and he became the antagonist against God. He hates everything that God stands for. That's why you may go through some physical, spiritual suffering. But when you come out on the other side, you can look at it and say, praise God, you were there with me the whole time and thank you for that.

What pride will do is say I don't deserve this. I should have the easy life or it's I, I, I, and we just can't have that. What we need people to do is to realize Jesus saves, and he saves from sin to an eternity with God.

Larry Spargimino: That's wonderfully put because he's Lord, but he's also savior, and he gave a propitiatory sacrifice. In other words, he paid the price fully. He was innocent, without sin, but because he died on the cross, he cried out. I think it's Matthew 27:46, my God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? He was abandoned so that those who believe in him would never have God turn his back on people who are believers. So friends, if you're not a believer, this is the time right now. Get on your knees, maybe even turn the radio off, just speak to God and ask him to save you.

So Douglas, what does this chapter, and we're talking about chapter 12, reveal about the real conflict behind human history?

Douglas Stauffer: It's an answer that I think you could go into a lot of different areas, but it shows that history's not just political or social. It's spiritual. There's always been a war against God's plan, and that war centers on Christ and Israel. What we see on earth, wars, nations, and conflicts is the visible expression of a deeper unseen battle. We wrestle not against flesh and blood, the Bible says, but against principalities, and it goes on from there. That's what we need to look at is that spiritual battle behind what we see with our physical eyes. We walk by faith, not by sight. Without faith, it's impossible to please God. So faith is the crux of the whole issue.

Larry Spargimino: Amen. Well, and I think it's very obvious in history and very obvious today that Satan hates Israel. It's amazing to me, Douglas, that I did a presentation in one of our conferences on antisemitism and it started in the church as you know, and I'm speaking about the medieval church. But how does this chapter in particular explain Satan's hatred for Israel?

Douglas Stauffer: Well, as I said, Israel's central to God's plan whether that's past, present, or future. You say they're in the land, they're in there in unbelief. Well, the Bible says they're going to come back to the land in unbelief. That's fulfilling scripture. Satan cannot attack God directly, so he attacks what God has chosen.

That's why Israel has faced continuous opposition throughout history because Satan knows that the future is Israel. The church is sort of running the show right now, believers, those that have trusted in Christ. But during the tribulation, that opposition against Israel intensifies because Satan knows his time is short.

Larry Spargimino: Amen. Well, we're hard up against the clock. This is the closing of our second program on *The Illumination of the Book of Revelation Book Two*. We rarely have a third program on the same offering, but we will have a third program with Dr. Stauffer, so be sure to tune in, be close to your radio listening to the next broadcast and we will continue our discussion.

Guest (Male): In Dr. Doug Stauffer's brand new book, *The Illumination of the Book of Revelation Book Two*, Doug delivers a masterful verse-by-verse exploration of the book of Revelation, offering clarity to one of scripture's most powerful and prophetic texts. This book presents fresh insight for both seasoned students and newcomers to Bible prophecy. Whether you're seeking to understand end-times prophecy or to reignite your spiritual walk, *The Illumination of the Book of Revelation* will equip you to see God's ultimate plan with renewed vision and conviction.

Order *The Illumination of the Book of Revelation Book Two* today when you call 1-800-652-1144. That's 1-800-652-1144. You can also order online at swrc.com. Don't just read about the end times, experience the transformative power of Revelation for yourself. *The Illumination of the Book of Revelation Book Two*. 1-800-652-1144. Dr. Larry Spargimino and Doug Stauffer will wrap up their conversation on Revelation on tomorrow's program. So be sure to tune in. Simply download our free SWRC mobile app or subscribe to our daily Watchman on the Wall podcast. Watchman on the Wall is a production of Southwest Radio Ministries. We're supported by faithful friends like you guys. So visit our website, swrc.com.