Watchman on the Wall

Southwest Radio Ministries: Welcome to Watchman on the Wall, a daily outreach of Southwest Radio Ministries and swrc.com. God is still on the throne, and prayer changes things. Welcome to a brand new month of bringing clarity to the chaos.

Today, you're invited to join us as we explore the ancient flood legends from around the world that point to the global flood of the Bible. A brand new month means we are exactly one month away from our next Prophecy in the News Live event, Friday and Saturday, May 1st and 2nd, at Sunrise Christian Academy in Bel Aire, Kansas.

You're invited to this free event featuring top Bible scholars, teachers, and researchers on current events and end-times prophecy, God's plan for Israel, unlocking biblical mysteries, and more scripture-based insight that will bring the clarity to the chaos. Speakers include Dr. Larry Spargimino, Dr. Rob Lindsted, Micah Van Huss, Josh Davis, Mac Dominick, and Larry Stam. Registration is now open for this free two-day event. Please visit swrc.com to sign up, or simply call 1-800-652-1144. Prophecy in the News Live at Sunrise Christian Academy in Bel Aire, Kansas, Friday and Saturday, May 1st and 2nd. Now, here's today's host, Clayton Van Huss.

Clayton Van Huss: I'm so glad you joined us on the program today. I'm your host, Clayton Van Huss. I am joined by author Nicola Gorie. We're going to be talking about his books, because now he has two books, *Echoes of Ararat*. Some of our regular listeners might know of the first book, *Echoes of Ararat*, but now there's a Volume Two. Nick, welcome to the program.

Nicola Gorie: Thanks for having me, Clayton. It's an honor to be with you.

Clayton Van Huss: Well, it's an honor to have you, and we appreciate you taking from your time and joining us. So, you have written these two books. They are fascinating books, talking about records that we find in the human story throughout mythologies and histories about flood accounts from different cultures. Tell us a little bit about what got you interested in this topic.

Nicola Gorie: I came to Christ on a college campus, and as I came into finding what it meant to follow Christ, I immediately realized that I was in a battle, a battle for hearts and minds. I realized I needed to be prepared to defend my faith and to answer questions for people that had questions about the faith.

So, I became interested in apologetics very early. Apologetics is a very broad field, but within apologetics, it's kind of hard to avoid the book of Genesis, which is so central to worldview, creation, life, and history. Within Genesis, it's also hard to avoid the flood, this global event that scripture devotes four chapters to in Genesis and which has a lot of ramifications.

While I was interested in apologetics, it wasn't until about 2015 that this subject of flood legends really struck me in a new way. I was reading a book called *Popular Handbook of Archaeology and the Bible*, and I came across a quote that said, "Did you know that cultures all over the world have these accounts of a flood, just like described in Genesis, matching it in general outline and detail?"

I was so struck by that statement, and I thought, let me learn more. Where can I learn more? Where is a book that documents all this evidence? Because this is powerful evidence, historical evidence for Genesis that we're talking about.

But to my disappointment, I found that there wasn't really a book that documented all that evidence. Now, there were some books with evidence here or there, a few tribes, but it was generally piecemeal and, in a lot of cases, secondhand information. When I went to check into it, I couldn't, in some cases, even verify the claims that were made at all. I thought, this won't do.

I was just intrigued by this thought of historical evidence for the flood, and so I just began researching. I started with what was familiar to me, and that was the Native American tribes. I love the Native Americans, and I started asking myself, what did they believe? Did they know about the flood?

So, I started going back to original sources—these ethnographic reports, maybe travelers' records, government records, and histories. I found that the Cherokee tribe, they know of the flood. The Iroquois tribes, they know of the flood. The Apache and the Arapaho and all these tribes. What is the Genesis flood, this global flood, doing in these nations' history?

Then I expanded my research into Canada and Central America and South America, and pretty soon, I just realized that I was sitting on top of something that I had to share with the world because I never planned to write a book. But at this point, after what I found, I felt that I had an obligation to write a book. When you think about the importance of this evidence and what it means for how we view Genesis and the Bible and also some of the false narratives, I felt that I had a duty to write this before God.

Clayton Van Huss: I think you've got a very good point here. We live in a world where once upon a time, I think people kind of took it for granted that there's a God and that the Bible can be trusted. But now, everyone is a skeptic. Everyone wants to argue, they don't want to take it at face value. Apologetics has become this thing where we've got to stay ahead of the game.

But you were talking about different legends amongst different groups of people here in the Americas, whether here in North America or in South America, tribes we know like the Cherokee, but then there are obscure tribes. There's a lot of different people groups in the Americas. How did you go about finding these stories from amongst these varied people with different languages and cultures and backgrounds, and many without old written languages?

Nicola Gorie: What I wanted to do was go back to the original early sources. I didn't want to settle for secondhand information. I wanted early, firsthand information from people who were in a position to know. That means locating the best sources. That means going into bibliographies and finding the original sources.

In Volume One, I would say it was mostly English, some Spanish, and a little French material. Actually, as I got into Volume Two, linguistically, it became more challenging. A lot of this material was in Chinese, even Russian, Dutch, Vietnamese sources.

But it's the quest for original primary sources written by people in a position to know—maybe an anthropologist, a historian, a missionary, maybe one of the first people to meet a tribe, maybe a tribal author himself.

Clayton Van Huss: You talk about primary sources. So much of what we talk about today as believers, when we find something interesting, a lot of times we'll just take sensationalism or we've seen a YouTube video or something like that. We're like, "Oh yeah, hey guys, let me tell you this." But you're not doing that. You're actually taking the time and doing the work to dig to find where it's coming from—verifiable primary sources.

Nicola Gorie: That's right. I wanted this to be well-documented, something that would speak for itself. Anyone is welcome to pick up these books. It's all footnoted, and you can check into it yourself. Everything is quoted directly.

I just thought that that was the level of documentation we need to really bring this information to bear, because it's powerful evidence, but we have to do the work to document it thoroughly and also comprehensively. That was part of my methodology, and it also means screening out sources that are not in a position to know, that are not reliable sources. It means looking for multiple confirming sources.

It means when we start seeing tribes that agree with each other. A lot of times, they've got their own twist from the Genesis flood, Tower of Babel, and oral preservation passing down from fathers to sons over thousands of years. They're going to forget some details, but we're seeing a collection of accounts that are consistent in the general outline of this description of this flood.

And then details! Prepare a great canoe. The great canoe lands on a high mountain. Birds are sent. One of the birds returns with something, and it's interpreted as a sign that the flood is over. We see these matching details—a rainbow, Tower of Babel afterward.

Clayton Van Huss: And it's the details that really help, because we can talk, as people who are interested in history and people groups and legends and archaeology and things like that, you're going to come across a lot of similar stories in different cultures because people have similar experiences around the world.

But there are certain markers that go on these stories where you look and say, "Now hold on. This is a detail. This is not simply a similarity." Yeah, everybody understands flooding, right? Rivers flood, things like that, and so a lot of people will say, "Well, yeah, the great flood is really just about local floods." But we're finding details that match across continents where people are not connected, at least not in any recorded memory. What sorts of details do we look for to tie these things together?

Nicola Gorie: Well, some of the details, I'll tell you the most frequent details that show up are divine judgment. A forewarning is given, often an old man, a prophet who's told to prepare this wooden vessel. Whether it's eight people, three or two, or one person that survives, the mountain landing. One of the most frequent details that occurs is these birds—the raven and the dove. That's not something that comes by coincidence, being invented independently.

Also, taking pairs of animals aboard the ark, a rainbow. Sometimes they talk about giants before the flood. Even details from other events, and I'm talking about the Garden of Eden, the Tower of Babel. So we'll see a special tree, we'll see a serpent.

It's understandable that they may have mixed up the memory of creation and the flood, but these are specific details that point us back to Genesis and show us that there's a unity here. This wasn't just made up. This came from an original source. I believe that is Noah and his three sons and their wives, the repopulation of the earth after Babel.

Clayton Van Huss: Right. And you know, I want to take a minute and talk about some of these things. But I want to remind our listeners, you are listening to Nicola Gorie, the author of *Echoes of Ararat*, and now *Echoes of Ararat* Volume Two is a great resource for your apologetics, or just to understand. Give us a call at 1-800-652-1144 or visit us online at swrc.com to get your copies of *Echoes of Ararat*, Volumes One and Two.

Nick, you were talking about some of these details that match up with the biblical account. Of course, your first book is over 300 stories, flood legends from the Americas. Where do you find some of these biblical details, maybe most vividly recorded in these American stories?

Nicola Gorie: If we talk about the Native Americans, one example would be the Mandan tribe. They were from North Dakota. In the 1830s, a traveler named George Catlin was privileged to watch their annual ceremony that they would perform. A tribal elder would act out the role of a man named Nu-mohk-muck-a-nah, the only man who was like Noah to that tribe.

He would recount to the tribe how long ago he survived the flood and landed his big canoe on a mountain far to the west. They also held the turtle dove in high esteem. He says they instructed their dogs even to do it no harm, because this bird, they say, returned to Nu-mohk-muck-a-nah with a willow leaf in its beak as a sign of the waters descending.

We could talk about the Walapai people of Arizona with rock carvings, ancient rock carvings at a place called Spirit Mountain, recounting the flood and details like the ark, that it rained for 45 days, a bird returning with grass in its beak. They and other neighboring tribes would meet at this mountain to commemorate the flood. Often these tribes would offer sacrifices to, they say, the Great Spirit in thanks for allowing their ancestors to survive. And those are just a couple examples from the Americas. We could talk about Asia, we could talk about the Pacific.

Clayton Van Huss: I'm just enjoying hearing about the Americas. This is because both the Americas and the Pacific are far away from what we consider the source. We look at Mesopotamia, we look at the land of the Bible, and we say, "Okay, well, this is the source, and we would expect to see different legends that are similar to the biblical account in that part of the world."

But we are separated by vast oceans in the Americas or in the Pacific Islands, so I think this is really fascinating, and this is some strong evidence for these things. So we see this, you were talking about some of the different North American tribes. I think you've got some interesting things on, I believe it's the Aztecs, talking about serpents and the first woman and things like that.

I know I've spent a little time in Honduras and looking at their legends of the creation and the echoes of the biblical account—man being created from clay and corn and just all sorts of interesting things. These things tend to tie together—the creation, the flood, and the dispersion at Babel. Do you see that as we head further south in the Americas?

Nicola Gorie: I do. Mexico and Central America really are just full of these traditions and paintings and accounts of the flood, of the Tower of Babel. You mentioned the Aztecs. They had ancient paintings depicting the flood, showing a man and a woman floating safely inside a hollow tree as the world was being destroyed by water.

Actually, we have something called Codex Vaticanus 3733, which is another painting, but this one shows a woman talking to a serpent, and there are two children behind her fighting each other. As a historian, Alexander de Humboldt unpacks the traditions associated with this, it's clear that this woman is Eve, and the children are Cain and Abel. To even see that memory!

We have quite a few ancient paintings from the flood that were discovered by the Spanish as they settled in Mexico.

Clayton Van Huss: Now, that's interesting because we have written accounts, but we don't always have a written language. So you say there are depictions, artistic depictions in the Americas?

Nicola Gorie: That's right. Alexander de Humboldt, I have a quote from him that of the different nations that inhabit Mexico, paintings representing the deluge of Coxcox, or Noah, are found among the Aztecs, the Mixtecs, the Zapotecs, the Tlaxcaltecs, and the Michoacanes.

There's this body of recurring knowledge of the flood that was even painted, and in other places we have rock carvings in Venezuela. This wasn't something that Christians came over from Europe and taught the natives. This is something that they really believed, and it was organic to their culture. It's not the kind of thing that's going to be explained away.

I think that's a large contribution of this book, is going to annihilate the notion of Christian missionary influence.

Clayton Van Huss: Yes, I wanted to cover that because you talk about it in the book. That is an excellent thing to do because people do make those claims. "Well, yeah, you know, they have these legends because missionaries came and told them stories." But you have firsthand accounts of first-contact type situations where the native people are telling them the stories, correct?

Nicola Gorie: Correct. This isn't something that shows up later. Are there stories that we filter out as missionary influence? Yes. Typically, they'll talk about things like Noah or the Virgin Mary or the Trinity, and that's a pretty good giveaway that this is something that they were taught.

But we have, as soon as missionaries, travelers, ethnographers encountered and understood the language of these cultures, they documented these traditions. And there's also evidence of authenticity in the way they were recorded. We see that tribes took great pains to ensure that their descendants would pass down these memories.

They would recount the flood at marriages, in annual holidays and ceremonies. They would have these ancient chants, they would have songs where maybe the men would sing part of the account and the women would sing the other part, or a leading family of the tribe would recount this.

They've been passed down and conveyed in a way that shows that they are authentic, they are original, they are something that has been possessed by these tribes for a long time. They often compare tribes within a language family and find that they agree on these details. It's exponentially more difficult to say that it's inauthentic or missionary influence when we look at this data.

Clayton Van Huss: Right. Okay, I am so excited about what we're talking about. I look forward to continuing our conversation tomorrow. We've been talking with Nicola Gorie, and he is the author of *Echoes of Ararat*, Volumes One and Two. These books are just full of great information, firsthand accounts, not just a bunch of hearsay. They tell us stories from the Americas, from the Pacific Islands, that recount the stories of the flood in the legends of the people. Nick, thank you so much for joining us today. We appreciate your time.

Nicola Gorie: Thank you, Clayton.

Clayton Van Huss: Great. If you're interested in obtaining a copy of *Echoes of Ararat*, Volumes One and Two, give us a call at 1-800-652-1144. That's 1-800-652-1144. Or visit us online at swrc.com to get your copies of *Echoes of Ararat*, Volumes One and Two, or Volumes One or Two if you have one or the other.

Southwest Radio Ministries: In *Echoes of Ararat*, author Nicola Gorie contends that oral traditions of the flood and the survival of the few inside the floating ark are even more prevalent than previously thought, and they powerfully confirm the truth of the Genesis account. This unprecedented work carefully documents hundreds of native traditions of the flood, as well as the Tower of Babel and the Garden of Eden, from the tribes of North and South America.

Order your copy of *Echoes of Ararat*, Volumes One and Two, today when you call 1-800-652-1144. That's 1-800-652-1144. Or you can order at swrc.com. Learn what the Cherokee, Lakota, Iroquois, Cheyenne, Inuit, Inca, Aztec, Guarani, and countless other tribes claimed about the early history of the world. Nicola Gorie also shares many evidences for the historical reliability of Genesis and shows that the Genesis flood account is not dependent on the Epic of Gilgamesh or other Near Eastern texts, as skeptics claim.

Rather, its author, Moses, had access to ancient records passed down by the early patriarchs, including Joseph, Jacob, Abraham, and even Noah himself. *Echoes of Ararat*, Volumes One and Two. 1-800-652-1144. Teacher and author Larry Stam comes now to share how you and I can effectively share our faith with those around us.

Larry Stam: Shalom, friends. Larry Stam here. So glad you are joining us as we continue in our series, "Serving in His Court: Biblical Principles for Personal Evangelism from the Heart of a Coach." In our last lesson, we introduced the topic for the Christian of answering questions and objections to the Christian faith.

So with that, let's get into some specifics and begin dealing with some basic questions and objections to the Christian faith. What I'm going to do in our lessons, in this lesson and perhaps the next lesson, is I want to give you ten simple questions and objections and I want to give you "coffee shop answers," as I call them—simple ways to keep these conversations going.

Off the bat, I want to let you know that there's no standard or right answer or correct way to respond specifically to each question and objection, because remember, witnessing conversations are like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're going to get. Depending on your personality, your experience, your knowledge base, we're all going to respond a little bit differently.

But what I'd like to do is give you some principles, some principles to hang your hat on, where you can have a good idea of the tenor of how to answer. Remember, we are called to speak the truth in love, and so we speak the truth in love in responding to questions and objections. Here are some specific questions that we're going to go over today and in our next lesson, possibly.

Number one, the number one standard objection: Christians are hypocrites. Number two: Christianity is a crutch. Number three: what about all the atrocities Christians have committed? Number four: it's narrow-minded to think Jesus is the only way. Number five: being a good person is all that really matters.

Number six, and this is one we as Christians ought to grapple with ourselves: what about those who have never heard about Jesus? Number seven, and this is a common objection, the person will say: the Bible is filled with errors. Number eight: if God is so good, why is there evil? Number nine, that is also connected to number eight, is this: why is there suffering in the world? And finally, number ten, an important and challenging question: if there is a hell, why would a loving God send people there?

Let's address these individually. Number one: Christians are hypocrites. The way I like to deal with this charge that Christians are hypocrites is I'll typically go, "You know, maybe or maybe not, but Jesus is no hypocrite." And then I typically pose this question. I'll typically ask a person, "Hey, do you have standards? I mean, do you have personal standards?"

Most people, if they're in their right mind, they'll respond, "Yes, I have standards." And then my follow-up will be, "Well, do you live up to your own standards?" Most people, if they're honest, are going to respond, "No, no I don't live up to my own standards." And so it's not a gotcha moment. I'm not trying to pin them, but I'm trying to expose the reality that, hey, all of us in one way, shape, or form are hypocrites.

That's the point. Jesus died for sinners. Jesus died for hypocrites like you and me. You just told me you don't even live up to your own standards, much less the standards of a holy, righteous, perfect God. That's a way to disarm somebody and deal with that objection that Christians are hypocrites. I hope that's been helpful to you, friend. Next time, we're going to continue dealing with this list of questions and objections to the Christian faith. Until next time, may the Lord richly bless you and keep you. Shalom.

Southwest Radio Ministries: Today, we are featuring the outstanding resource *Echoes of Ararat*, Volumes One and Two. In *Echoes of Ararat*, author Nicola Gorie contends that oral traditions of the flood and the survival of the few inside the floating ark are even more prevalent than previously thought, and they powerfully confirm the truth of the Genesis account.

This unprecedented work carefully documents hundreds of native traditions of the flood, as well as the Tower of Babel and the Garden of Eden, from the tribes of North and South America. Order your copy of *Echoes of Ararat* today when you call 1-800-652-1144. Or order at swrc.com.

More insight on the flood legends and the truth of scripture is coming up on tomorrow's program. So be sure to tune in by downloading our free SWRC mobile app. Watchman on the Wall is a production of Southwest Radio Ministries and is supported by faithful listeners like you. Visit swrc.com.