Running To Win

Dave McAllister: Let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith. Two lives, two legacies, two worldviews still at battle today. Marxist ideas are infiltrating the most unlikely places in America. Karl Marx and D.L. Moody: the contrast between these men could not be greater.

Today, another interview about Marx and Moody, a book co-authored by Erwin Lutzer and Greg Quigg. From the Moody Church in Chicago, this is Running to Win with Dr. Erwin Lutzer, whose clear teaching helps us make it across the finish line. Here now are Pastor Lutzer and co-author Greg Quigg to give us more details on the stark differences between Karl Marx and D.L. Moody.

Dr. Erwin W. Lutzer: This is Pastor Lutzer. Thank you so much for joining us for a very special episode of Running to Win. I have an author with me here in the studio that I will introduce to you in just a moment. We have written a book together, and you might be surprised at the title.

Just a word of explanation. About a year ago, I gave a lecture at the tomb of Karl Marx in London, trying to help people to understand his continuing impact: who he was, what the Communist Manifesto taught. But as I was preparing the lecture, I realized that he was actually a contemporary of D.L. Moody for 46 years.

As I mentioned in the last program, we have no evidence that Marx ever attended a meeting by D.L. Moody in England. Of course, Moody was preaching to large crowds every single night. Engels, who helped write the Communist Manifesto, did attend, and what he said about it is fascinating. I referred to it very briefly last time.

The title of the book is Marx and Moody: Two Contemporaries, Two Gospels, Two Tombstones, and One Choice. You may say, well, why do you include tombstones in the title? Well, actually, at the end of the book, I write a chapter as we go to the tomb of Karl Marx, as we go to the tomb of Moody, and we talk about their legacies.

One of the emphases we have in the book is this: we all want to ask ourselves, how will we be remembered? What this book does is it showcases two different approaches to the world—a contrast, actually, between Moody, who preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ but also was very involved in social issues, and Karl Marx, who had his own atheistic explanation as to what was wrong, and the explanation that he gave ended up being terrifying.

Now, before I introduce our guest, I do want to remind you that the Communist Manifesto, which I discuss in detail in the book, is actually one that has some terrifying statements. Let me give you the very last. You know, there are many people who read the last comment in the Communist Manifesto and they skip the comment that comes just before it.

I'm going to read it for you: "The Communists disdain to conceal their views. They openly declare that their ends can only be attained by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling class tremble at the communist revolution." Then, in another quotation, Karl Marx says that he does not apologize for the violence; he indicates that there is going to be a great deal of violence.

Now, this is something that's important for us to understand. I hope I have time to talk about how Marxism came to America without violence, but that's another story. Greg, I'm so glad to have you here and to be a co-author with you in this book, Marx and Moody. What is it that motivates you about D.L. Moody?

Greg Quigg: I think Mr. Moody has been misunderstood and misrepresented, and I think Mr. Moody has a lot to say to us today. One of the things Mr. Moody teaches us is the importance of never separating evangelism and working to address the needs of the poor.

Moody certainly prioritized them, as I believe the Bible does. Jesus prioritized them, but he never says we should do one and disregard the other. His life and work is a beautiful illustration of a biblical model of how to do both Gospel preaching and evangelism and at the same time practically addressing the needs of the poor.

Dr. Erwin W. Lutzer: The person, by the way, that you hear speaking is Greg Quigg, who used to teach at Moody Bible Institute. He wrote, of course, the section on D.L. Moody in the book, and I wrote the section on Karl Marx. In a few moments, we're going to be giving you some contact info as to how this book can be yours. But Greg, isn't it interesting? People may not realize how famous Moody was. He interacted with three presidents.

Greg Quigg: Indeed. As a young man, he started a Sunday school in Chicago and President-elect Abraham Lincoln stopped in the Sunday school in Chicago. It had become so famous that Lincoln said, "I've got to see this for myself." There were over a thousand street kids that were attending his Sunday school, so Lincoln came by.

Later on, President U.S. Grant and his cabinet attended one of Moody's revival meetings in 1876. Then, we don't have an exact date and he wasn't president yet, but Woodrow Wilson was one time getting a haircut of all things, and Mr. Moody came in to get a haircut, sat right beside Wilson.

Wilson talked about listening to Moody talk to his barber and the other people, and he said it was like being in a church service. The way that Moody spoke to these men about their souls, the way he had regard for them as people, his interest in these other men in the room—he said it was an extraordinary thing to see how Moody interacted with human beings.

Dr. Erwin W. Lutzer: Of course, there's so much that we could talk about, but I can't help but go back to the Sunday school, because that actually was the beginning of Moody Church, wasn't it?

Greg Quigg: Yes, it was. It says something about Mr. Moody. We mentioned in the last program he grew up poor. He was also poorly educated; he only had five years of formal education. Moody had a burden for poor kids. One time he came back from a meeting and they said, "How did it go?" He said, "We had two and a half converts." They said, "Oh, two adults and a kid?" He said, "No, two kids and an adult. The kids have their entire life to give to the Lord." So he concentrated on kids, especially poor kids. He had this burden for poor urban kids.

Dr. Erwin W. Lutzer: He tried to take them to church and they didn't want these kids because they were too rowdy. So Moody says, "I'm beginning my own Sunday school," but he's also beginning his own church. That, of course, is dear to my heart, having been the senior pastor at the Moody Church for 36 years. Of course, we don't have time to discuss it, but after that came the Moody Bible Institute. I love the fact that Moody was such a humble man that he refused to take any credit for the fact that he was famous. He was front-page news in England, especially when he had his tour through the British Isles and so forth.

Moody's impact is ongoing, but so is the impact of Karl Marx. I want to say a word about him, since the title of the book is Marx and Moody. At the end of this broadcast, I'll be giving you some contact info as to how this book can be yours. I want to discuss very briefly: how did Marxism come to the United States? That, of course, should interest us.

As a matter of fact, you parents, you know what it's like to send a child to college nowadays and they come back and they are thinking differently than you are. Yeah, they sure are. Maybe it's based on some of the things that Karl Marx says about truth in the Communist Manifesto. I don't have time to go into it, but that of course becomes very, very important: how you understand history and so forth.

But this is the point I want to make. There was in Italy a communist during the Mussolini era, and he was wondering how communism could come to America. He looked at what happened in Russia and he knew that that was not a great advertisement for communism. So he said that in America, communism was going to have to come—as a matter of fact, an exact quote is, "Marxism is exactly the philosophy that must kill Christianity."

He saw three roadblocks to Marxism. He saw, first of all, Christianity, the family, and capitalism. Now, actually, Gramsci was sitting in prison. Why would a man like Mussolini want him in prison? People have to understand there is a distinction between fascism and communism. Fascism is very nationalistic; that's why Hitler and Mussolini were friends. Communism pays no attention, really, to those kinds of distinctions. It has to do with class warfare. So that's where we are at.

Now, Gramsci writes a paper on how it can come to the United States. This is so relevant, I couldn't believe it. He says that Christianity can be used to bring in communism because the language of the New Testament—some of the sayings of Jesus—can be turned into political language. I can't read the entire paragraph for lack of time, but let me come to the very end. I mean, statements like Jesus said, "Blessed are the poor"—they can be used to promote communism.

Now, this is what he says: "It is a question of translating the religious language into historical-political language, of showing how the same aspirations that Christianity places in the beyond can be realized here on earth through the collective action of men." I hope you don't miss it. What he is saying is: turn the language of the heaven above to a heaven below and use Christianity to promote the Marxist ideas.

Fascinating. Of course, we don't have time to go into it here, but that's exactly what some churches have done as they've sunk into liberalism. They have seen that relationship. In the book, I have an entire chapter on democratic socialism, and there I show why it is so attractive. I also discuss issues like this: in the Communist Manifesto, did Marx distinguish between communism and socialism? I answer that question. Also, did Marx believe in democracy? Fascinating. Yes, after a fashion.

But enough about Marx. Let's go back to Moody. Okay, here he is. He has little education formally; of course, he teaches himself to read. What is that line that Spurgeon used to say that D.L. Moody could say?

Greg Quigg: He said Moody is the only person he knew who could say "Mesopotamia" in two syllables. He spoke outrageously fast, so he would clip words. It was a clear sight of his lack of ability to use the English language.

Dr. Erwin W. Lutzer: And you know, at the beginning of the book, I quote Engels, who helped write the Communist Manifesto, attending a Moody meeting and saying that the American evangelist spoke quickly and not without wit. In other words, Moody would throw in some humor. Engels himself testified to that, and Engels certainly heard the Gospel. Now, what he said about it, I don't have time to share, but nonetheless, the point is this: that these two men, Moody and Marx, they were indeed contemporaries.

That's why the title of the book is Marx and Moody: Two Contemporaries, Two Gospels, Two Tombstones, and One Choice. But let's go back to Moody. Okay, I want to ask you this question: how did he become so famous? I mean, why was he front-page news in the 1800s?

Greg Quigg: I think the key to understanding Moody's success is first off, he was used by God. He gave himself to the Lord, so clearly there's a supernatural thing to this. But the second thing about Moody is—and you hear this over and over again—it's not his rhetorical skills, it's not even his ability to be light and winsome in that way. It was his earnestness. Moody really believed the Gospel.

Dr. Erwin W. Lutzer: And you know, that's the same about Billy Graham, isn't it?

Greg Quigg: Yes. There was no guile, to quote the old King James, "he was an Israelite in whom there is no guile." There was nothing; Moody shot straight. Moody was straight, and people knew it, and that cut through. They may have laughed at his grammar, they may have laughed at his lack of education, but at the end of the day, they knew he cared, and they knew he was sincere, and they knew he believed what he was saying. There was nothing false about Dwight Moody.

Dr. Erwin W. Lutzer: And actually, he was ahead of his time. Now, he began Moody Bible Institute, but also some schools in Northfield, Massachusetts. We don't have time to list them all, but what ethnicities were there in those schools?

Greg Quigg: Two things about those schools. Number one, they were only for poor kids. And number two, they were racially diverse. So you have African Americans, ex-slaves, Native Americans, Asian Americans, and Caucasians. So they were very diverse ethnically.

Dr. Erwin W. Lutzer: You know, one thing I like about Moody—of course, there are so many stories—but somebody, when he came back from England, and Moody, of course, was very famous, he was front-page news. In fact, people have to understand that when he preached, they took down his messages in shorthand, and it was in the newspaper the next day. So he obviously attracted a lot of attention.

And you mention in the book that Moody would not allow people to draw his picture. He didn't sit for a picture. He didn't want his picture taken. And I love this story: when Moody came to America, someone said, "Well, may I shake hands with the great Mr. Moody?" Moody scooped down, took a handful of dirt, and said, "Look at this. This is D.L. Moody, apart from the grace of God." And that's who he was all the way to the very end.

Greg Quigg: Yeah, I think that humility is another portion. I think that's why he was widely admired. He didn't get caught up in the money. He kept clean on the money. He didn't make it about himself. He refused to have anything named after him. Nothing was named after Mr. Moody till he was dead, because he would have been crazy about that. If you made the mistake of introducing him as "Reverend Moody," he would interrupt you and say, "No, no, no, I'm just Mr. Moody, a Sunday school teacher from Chicago." If you were going to the platform with him, you better have a sermon in your pocket, because he would, on the way up, say, "They've heard enough from me. It's your turn to preach tonight."

Dr. Erwin W. Lutzer: I want everyone listening to understand that this could be transforming. I think that the section that you wrote on Moody should be read by every young person. And I say that because they need to see a life of simplicity but sincerity. I love that quote that was given to him by another: "The world has yet to see what God can do through and in a man who is totally yielded to him."

And of course, there are so many stories. You know, somebody criticized Moody's grammar and how he preached, and he said, "I'm really sorry. I want you to preach and show me how to do it." That was his response. He never defended himself, but he preached the Gospel, and his impact is continuing.

That's why at the end of the book, we go to the graveyards both of Karl Marx and to D.L. Moody to contrast their legacies. And by the way, one of the chapters in the book is entitled "What Moody Got Right, What Marx Got Wrong," where we talk about human nature and we talk about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Very quickly again, Greg, I do want to end on this note. Tell us about the "Three Rs" that Moody preached.

Greg Quigg: Moody believed that human beings were ruined by sin. That is, there is something deeply, fundamentally wrong with us that we cannot fix. Then he believed that the solution was Jesus Christ. So the second R is "Redeemed by Christ"—that God had to fix the problem, and he did so. Jesus Christ, the God-man, came and died to solve this problem. And that we are "Regenerated," made new by the work of the Holy Spirit—so "Regenerated by the Holy Spirit" was the third one.

This was Moody's Gospel. It does not matter who you are. It does not matter what you have done. Jesus Christ offers forgiveness. He paid for your sins. And the Holy Spirit can make you a new person. And by the work of Christ, by trusting in Christ alone, you can be redeemed.

Dr. Erwin W. Lutzer: I just feel the urge in my own spirit here to quickly go to the tombstone of D.L. Moody, because on it is one of his favorite verses: "The world passes away and all of its lusts, but he who does the will of God abides forever." And buried next to him is his wife, and she has a verse of scripture from the book of Revelation, which I don't have time to quote, but what a wonderful couple and their impact is ongoing.

And then, of course, in the book, we also go to the tomb of Karl Marx. For a gift of any amount, we're making this book available for you. It's entitled Marx and Moody: Two Contemporaries, Two Gospels, Two Tombstones, and One Choice. Included in it is a chapter on democratic socialism, on how Marxism came to America, how we must understand the Marxist view of the world, and of course, what we want to do is to motivate people to godliness, to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

For a gift of any amount, we're making this book available for you. We are so deeply appreciative of all those of you who support this ministry. You've heard me say this many times, but it's because of people just like you who are blessed, who in turn help us as the ministry continues around the world.

Here's what you do, and I sure hope that you have a pen or pencil handy. You go to rtwoffer.com right now. Go to rtwoffer.com. Ask for the book entitled Marx and Moody: Two Contemporaries, Two Gospels, Two Tombstones, and One Choice. Even as you read this book, I hope that you will pass it along to others. Because in a world in which we are faced with choices that have to do with politics, that have to do with truth, and especially that has to do with the Gospel and what the answer is to human need, I think that this book will be a tremendous blessing.

It'll be a motivation for all of us to follow the God and the Gospel of D.L. Moody and to recognize that we indeed do have a fatal flaw and only God is able to save us and to redeem us. We here at Running to Win—and you've heard me say this many times before—are deeply appreciative because of people just like you. Running to Win is now in 50 different countries in seven different languages. How is this possible? Because we have people who pray for us.

Recently, somebody sent me a text, and she said that she and her husband are praying for me and for this ministry, and she even gave the verse of scripture that they had been praying. She had no idea of what a blessing that was to me. What an encouragement. And indeed, you've heard me say it before, but thank you so much for joining hands with us because we have a goal in mind, and that is to please the Lord, to live for Him all the way to the finish line.

Dave McAllister: Erwin Lutzer, along with Greg Quigg, drawing a stark contrast between two men over a century ago. Karl Marx and D.L. Moody were towering figures with diametrically opposite solutions to the problems of mankind. Today is the last day you can ask for a copy of Marx and Moody as our gift to you when you give a gift of any amount to support Running to Win. This book clarifies the contrast between darkness and light, and it will be sent at your request.

For full information, call us toll-free at 1-888-218-9337. That's 1-888-218-9337. Online, go to rtwoffer.com. That's rtwoffer.com. Or write to us at Running to Win, Moody Church, 1635 North LaSalle Boulevard, Chicago, Illinois, 60614.

You'd never find a more unlikely convert to the Christian faith. Saul was intent on capturing and killing as many believers as possible. That all changed one day when this Pharisee found himself in a blinding pool of light. Next time, we begin a series on the legacy of a converted man, the impact of the Apostle Paul. Plan to tune in. Thanks for listening. For Pastor Erwin Lutzer, this is Dave McAllister. Running to Win is sponsored by the Moody Church.