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Colin Smith: What does he experience now? What's it like for Dad now? What is he doing now? And everyone who has a loved one, a Christian loved one who goes into the presence of the Lord, you ask these questions. You think about it, and you may think about it in relation to yourself. Now, when that moment comes for me and I die and I pass into the presence of the Lord, what will it be like?

Steve Hiller: Welcome to Open the Bible with Pastor Colin Smith. Colin, I think all of us can relate to asking this question. We've all asked somebody important to us and you're wondering, what is heaven like for them? And this is something that you were going through personally about the time you preached this message.

Colin Smith: Yeah, the message was given just after my father-in-law went to be with the Lord. And Steve, as you say, everyone listening to us right now will have a personal experience of this. Someone you know, someone that you love who you miss, they're no longer with you. And you wonder about them. Now what is it like for them now?

Well, we're going to look at that question from the Bible today. For a person who is in Christ, your loved one has an immediate, conscious, joyful experience of the presence of the Lord. And the Apostle Paul says that is better by far than anything that can be known in this world here.

You know Steve, it often occurs to me that being unconscious wouldn't be better by far than living with all of the joys of life in this world. But Paul says it's better by far. And why does he say that? Because there's the immediate, conscious, joyful experience of the presence of the Lord. I want us to see that in the Bible today so that we can have confident expectation, great peace, and great hope in the promises that are ours in Jesus Christ.

Steve Hiller: Well, let's get to the Bible. We are in Revelation chapter 6, looking at verses 9 through 11 today as we begin a message called, "What Will It Be Like in Heaven?" Here is Pastor Colin.

Colin Smith: Last week we looked at the question, "how can I be sure of heaven?" To whom does Jesus Christ say, "you will be with me in paradise?" Of whom is that true? And we saw from the story that the thief turned to Jesus. That is, he began to fear God, he recognized Jesus Christ as King.

And he asked of Jesus, asking meaning that he came empty-handed. He didn't try and do a deal, he didn't try and pretend that he was righteous in some way which he was not. He turned and he asked. And then we saw that he trusted in Jesus.

What Jesus gave to him was a promise, and the thief trusted that promise of Jesus in the darkness, in the pain, and even when it came to the moment of death itself. And so we saw that to the person who turns to Jesus, and the person who asks of Jesus, and the person who trusts in Jesus, it is to this person that Jesus says, "you will be with me in paradise."

Today we want to take it a step further and to ask the question, "well what does that look like? What exactly is the experience of a Christian believer immediately after death?" Now remember that immediately after death a believer in the presence of the Lord does not yet experience all that's to come in the resurrection.

The resurrection of the body comes when Christ comes in power and in glory. And death is the separation of the soul from the body. We lay to rest the body of someone that we love who has died, and their soul, their spirit goes into the presence of Jesus.

So what exactly between now and the resurrection? What exactly now is the experience of a Christian believer in the presence of the Lord? Today you will be with me in paradise. Well what was it for the thief at the end of that day?

Now this is obviously a profoundly personal question for all of us. Earlier this year, as I think most of you know, Karen and I were in England for the funeral service of her father. Dad died at the age of 90. He was a believer, he died in the Lord.

And over these last weeks it's been natural in our minds and in our conversation to be saying, "now what does he experience now? What's it like for Dad now? What is he doing now?" And everyone who has a loved one, a Christian loved one who goes into the presence of the Lord, you ask these questions.

You think about it and you may think about it in relation to yourself. Now when that moment comes for me and I die and I pass into the presence of the Lord, what will it be like? One minute after you die, what is that experience going to be?

Now I want to offer four answers to that question today and then very briefly at the end to show how you can use these truths that we're drawing from various scriptures today as a help and an encouragement in your own walk with the Lord. But we begin here, that loved ones who have died in the Lord are with Christ.

That's answer number one. They are with Christ. And of course this is right in the words that Jesus spoke to the thief on the cross: "today you will be with me in paradise." So the great promise was that the thief would be with Jesus.

And Jesus says that it would be today. Death, he says to the thief, for you will be an immediate translation into the joyful presence of the Father in heaven. You will be with me. Now we've noted several times that we know that Jesus died before the thief.

He committed his spirit into the hands of the Father and when the thief died, the thief went immediately into the presence of Jesus. Think about that. After all that he had endured, no post-traumatic stress for the thief in heaven.

No wounds from the past, no fears from the future, complete healing in the presence of Jesus. Now that immediate translation of the soul of the thief at death entering into the presence of Jesus, that immediate translation is really a kind of prototype or a model of what happens for the death of every Christian believer.

And we're told this very clearly in the New Testament in 2 Corinthians chapter 5 and verse 8 where we're told that to be away from the body—that's what death is, your soul and your body that God has joined together are separated—and you are away from the body, your soul is away from the body. That means that your soul is at home with the Lord.

And Paul actually states it both ways round in 2 Corinthians in chapter 5. He says, "while we are at home in the body, we are away from the Lord," and he says, "we would rather be away from the body because then we will be at home with the Lord."

So when a believing loved one dies and when the question comes to you now, "where are they now?" your first answer should always be: they are with Christ. They are with Christ. They are away from the body. That is why the family, those who love them, will lay the body to rest.

Why do we lay the body to rest? Because they're away from the body. And being away from the body, they are at home with the Lord. Answer number one: with Christ. Answer number two: loved ones who have died in the Lord are fully conscious.

Fully conscious. And when you pass into the presence of the Lord Jesus through death, that will be true for you as well. Notice that Jesus said to the thief, "today you will be with me in paradise." There's immediacy there.

Now notice that Jesus does not say when the thief says, "will you remember me?" Jesus does not say, "well let me explain this to you. After today you're going to go into a long period of unconsciousness that's actually going to last more than 2,000 years.

But after a long period of unconsciousness that will last more than 2,000 years, I will come again and then I will waken you up and then you will be with me in paradise." He does not say that, does he? Now get the weight and the significance of this.

Today you will be with me in paradise. That means immediate, conscious enjoyment of the presence of the Lord. Now some Christians are confused at this point and through the history of the church there have been some small groups that have seized on the fact that the Bible often describes death as a kind of sleep.

Jesus uses that analogy: "we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed." And because of that there have been some, a few, who have suggested that the souls of believers go to sleep when they die—in other words, that they become unconscious.

But what sleeps when the Bible uses that language? What sleeps is not the soul; what sleeps is the body. That's why we lay the body to rest. The body is laid to rest until the resurrection. The soul is alive and thrives in the presence of Jesus.

Now I think that it may be that some folks get their minds onto this idea of soul sleep because candidly it's easier to imagine unconsciousness than it is to imagine the life of a soul without a body. And we'll come to that in just a few moments' time to try and give some help in that regard.

But what I want you to notice now is that unconsciousness is not the promise of Jesus. Thank God for that. Enjoying the presence of God in the company of Jesus in paradise, that is his promise. And remember this just by way of underlining it.

The Apostle Paul said—and you can help me with this verse—"for me to live is Christ and to die is gain." He then goes on to verses later, 1 Philippians chapter 1 and verse 23 to say that he desires to go and to be with Christ because to be with Christ is better by far.

Now what he's saying in these two statements, Philippians 1:21 and Philippians 1:23, it's gain, it's better by far is that what a believer experiences immediately in the conscious enjoyment of the presence of Jesus is better, is more, than the very best that you can know as a Christian believer in this world.

So think of everything that you can know and enjoy as a Christian believer in this world. In Christ, you're born again. You are justified by faith. You're reconciled to God. You're adopted into his family as a son or a daughter of the King.

The Spirit of God lives within you and nothing can ever separate you from the love of God that is in Jesus Christ our Lord. You are blessed with every spiritual blessing in Jesus Christ and that is yours now. There is no way in the world that being unconscious is better than that.

That would be so much less. And Paul says what lies beyond for the believer immediately is not less, it is more, it is gain, it is better by far than the very best that you can know in this life in all of your experience of Jesus Christ in this world.

Better than all that you have of Christ right now, better than anything you have ever known in this world as a Christian believer, better than anything you can know in this world as a believer, that is not unconsciousness, that is immediate conscious enjoyment of the presence of Jesus.

So I want us to be clear about that, otherwise we will not have a joyful anticipation of what lies ahead as you find so vibrantly in the New Testament.

Steve Hiller: You're listening to Open the Bible with Pastor Colin Smith and a message called, "What Will It Be Like in Heaven?" And we've been seeing that those who have died in the Lord are going to be with Christ and fully conscious. When we come back in just a few moments we're going to continue the message and see how we're also going to be actively engaged. So hope you'll stay with us.

Well a number of years ago, Pastor Colin preached a message called, "Breakfast with the Devil, Supper with the Savior." That was turned into the book, *Heaven, How I Got Here: The Story of the Thief on the Cross*, which has also been a radio drama and a one-man play that's been turned into a movie.

It's now available in well over 20 languages, from Arabic, Chinese, Farsi, Hindi, Spanish, Russian, and many others. And you can find out more about this and how to watch *Heaven, How I Got Here* in any of these languages when you come to our website, openthebible.org/heaven. That's openthebible.org/heaven.

Back to the message. Here is Pastor Colin.

Colin Smith: Believers who have died, what are they experiencing right now? They are with Christ, that's answer number one. They are fully conscious is answer number two. Answer number three: they are actively engaged.

And here is where I want to encourage you in regards to our thinking about the life that is to come. Here's the problem that we have, I alluded to it a moment ago. Everything that we enjoy in this life is experienced through the body.

So we enjoy walking and running, but how can you do that without legs? We enjoy listening to music, but how could you do that without ears? We enjoy seeing the world, but how could you do that without eyes?

Everything we do, everything we enjoy, everything we experience, we experience in this life through the body. Now here is someone that you love and the soul has been separated from the body. Their body has been laid to rest.

They won't get the resurrection body until Jesus Christ comes and so it sits in your mind saying, "so what in the world can they possibly be doing right now?" Now here's what has helped me with this question and I hope it will be helpful to you.

Think about it. God has given life to you through the union of your body and your soul. That of course is why death which is the separation of the soul from the body is such a fearful thing. It is the undoing of our very nature.

It is the tearing apart of the very thing that God has bound together in giving us the life that we know in this world. So it's very hard for us to imagine anything other than life that exists through and in the body. But angels are souls or spirits without bodies.

They never had bodies, they never will have bodies. They are souls or spirits. Hebrews chapter 1 and verse 14: "angels are ministering spirits." And Jesus says in regards to his own resurrection, he says to the disciples, Luke 24 and verse 39, "a spirit does not have flesh or bones."

And then he says, as you see I have, a fascinating reference to the nature of the resurrection body. But he says a spirit does not have flesh and bones. A spirit does not have flesh and bones. Angels don't have flesh and bones.

Wayne Grudem, who has written a marvelous book called, *Systematic Theology*, that just means bringing in a systematized way truths on various themes together from across the whole Bible, he says this about angels: "angels are created spiritual beings with moral judgment, with high intelligence, but without physical bodies."

So think this through with me. In the Bible, we have created beings that are souls or spirits without bodies and we are told a great deal about their activity. A great deal about the activity of angels. A great deal about the activity of these created spirits who have never had bodies, never will.

And yet they're joyful, engaged, actively engaged in the purposes of God. So thinking about what is possible for angels without bodies will just begin to give us some help to trigger our minds and whet our appetites with regards what is possible in the presence of God for those who have gone as souls and as spirits into the presence of Jesus awaiting the resurrection.

So this is what has helped me. You don't need a body to do what angels do. They are ministering spirits. They therefore give to us a model, a pattern, for thinking about the experience of our believing loved ones who are now with the Lord.

So let me just to tease that out a little bit for you, give you just one or two examples that quickly come to mind from the Bible about what angels do, how they're actively engaged, and therefore open up our thinking with regards the experience now of our believing loved ones in heaven.

For example, angels see, and so do believers in heaven. So Jesus says this, Matthew chapter 18 and verse 10: "don't despise these little ones for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven."

Now they don't have bodies. Angels don't have eyeballs, they don't have retinas. So you say, "how do you see without an eyeball and a retina?" I don't know, but the Bible tells me that angels see the Father. The spirits see the Father.

They behold him. You don't need a body to do that is what we're being told in Matthew chapter 18 and verse 10. And the same therefore is true for your believing loved ones. Faith has been turned to sight for them.

They will have eyes in the resurrection but right now they see and behold the face of the Father in the same way as angels do, and they do not have bodies and do not need them to do it. Second, angels speak and so do believers in heaven.

There's joyful communication. We read this every Christmas, don't we? Suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, saying—how do you say without a larynx? I don't know, but angels do and they don't have bodies and they communicate and they declare the glory of God.

And your believing loved ones do so also in the presence of Jesus. We will have vocal cords in the resurrection but right now they speak as angels do. Thirdly, angels rejoice and so do believers in heaven.

Remember Jesus saying, Luke chapter 15, "I tell you there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents." Four, angels worship and so do believers in heaven. I'm looking at Revelation 5: "I looked and I heard around the throne the voice of many angels."

So here are these spirits and there are thousands upon thousands of them and they're saying in a loud voice, "worthy is the Lamb who was slain to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing."

And the redeemed in the presence of Christ share in this. Don't yet have the resurrection body, but weak is the effort of my heart and cold my warmest thought but when I see thee as thou art, I'll praise thee as I ought.

You will worship out of a full and an overflowing heart in the presence of the Lord Jesus Christ. Faith turned to sight, fullness of joy, uninhibited by any sluggishness of the flesh. It's going to be glorious.

Steve Hiller: I don't know about you but I found it so helpful to think about angels giving us a model or at least a pattern for thinking about what our loved ones might be experiencing as they're now with the Lord.

You're listening to a message called, "What Will It Be Like in Heaven?" and we're going to continue next time here on Open the Bible. If you want to make sure you don't miss it, you can be listening to your radio.

You can also listen online at openthebible.org or through the Open the Bible app, which is free at your app store. Well, Open the Bible's a listener-supported ministry. We're able to do what we do, bringing you Pastor Colin's teaching each day because of your generous financial support.

And as you give a gift of any amount this month, we want to send you three copies of our very first graphic novel. It's inspired by Pastor Colin's book, *Heaven, How I Got Here: The Story of the Thief on the Cross*.

Plus we'll send you one copy of the original book. But Colin, how does this graphic novel speak to young people today?

Colin Smith: Well, if you're a young person and especially if you have grown up in church, you probably find yourself asking the question, "am I living a good enough life? Am I living a life that's really going to be pleasing to God?"

And you maybe have in your mind the idea that pleasing God's going to be a very, very hard thing to do. And here's the marvelous good news: entrance into heaven and peace with God don't depend on you living a good enough Christian life.

It's the gift of God's marvelous grace and that is made wonderfully clear in the story of the thief on the cross. And this graphic novel tells that story in a way that's clear, simple, and compelling and it communicates the greatest good news ever: that God's marvelous grace comes to us in Jesus Christ.

He's the one who gives us peace with God. He's the one who opens the door of heaven. There is hope for every person in Jesus Christ, and especially for the person who's saying, "I haven't lived a good enough life. I feel very, very far from God."

That's the message and I hope that it's going to be very encouraging to every young person, to everyone who's a visual learner and to everyone who needs to understand God's marvelous grace.

Steve Hiller: Well, you can give your gift to support Open the Bible by calling 1-877-OPEN-365 or going online to openthebible.org. Again our phone number's 1-877-673-6365 and our website is openthebible.org. For Pastor Colin Smith, I'm Steve Hiller. Thanks for listening and I hope you'll join us next time. This program is a listener-supported production of Open the Bible.

Colin Smith: This is Pastor Colin, and I love the story of the thief on the cross because it's the best story we have to help people understand grace. You know many people have the idea that if a person was to get into heaven, they'd get there by living a good enough life.

Well the thief on the cross hadn't lived a good life and he wasn't in a position to start living a good life either. But Jesus said to him, "today you will be with me in paradise." Well if the thief could get into heaven, so can everyone you know and will ever meet.

*Heaven, How I Got Here* is a compelling 60-minute film in which Stephen Baldwin portrays the thief on the cross in a one-person play. We've seen God use this film to help many trust in Jesus as the thief did.

So who is there in your life who needs to understand grace? For more information or to watch this film for free, visit openthebible.org/heaven. That's openthebible.org/heaven.