In Touch Ministries

Dr. Charles Stanley: Satan can use natural curiosity to get you in serious trouble because there are demons, there are demonic forces, and we can't say that there is no evidence of any power in this because there is tremendous power in demonic forces. So you can't say it's all a hoax and there's nothing to it. The tragedy is there is something to it, but what is to it is all bad and evil.

Guest (Male): Witchcraft, demons, evil. Too many people have become used to these all too common themes in media these days. But Christians need to be aware of the very real dangers. Today on In Touch, the teaching ministry of Dr. Charles Stanley, we continue our series on First and Second Samuel with a look at King Saul's attempt at talking with the dead. Let's listen in to Dr. Stanley's message.

Dr. Charles Stanley: Would you turn please to First Samuel? First Samuel 28. Here is an incident where the Bible says that Saul, by the means of a medium, called up Samuel, who was already dead, for a message to Saul. I want us to look at that passage to see what really happened here because there are lots of questions about it. Let's begin in verse three of First Samuel 28.

Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits and the wizards, or witches, out of the land. So the person to whom he's going to later on in this chapter was one of those persons whom he'd been responsible for annihilating out of the land, all the witches and all the mediums carrying on séances and so forth.

Let me just stop right here to say something, and I want you to remember this if you forget everything else I'm going to say because it may be the most important thing. When you and I are right with God, the thing oftentimes we are against with the greatest intensity is the one thing Satan will hit you with when you start backsliding. You just remember that.

The thing that you're so absolutely and adamantly opposed to, when you begin the downward slide in your backsliding condition, watch out. It may be the very thing Satan trips you up with. That's exactly what happened here to Saul. Here he was running them out of the land, and what happens? He ends up going to one.

It's amazing how many Christians are getting caught up in the occult. Some of these people who claim to be a part of the occult will tell you right now that they're Christians. Some of them will tell you they read the Bible, they pray, they believe parts of the Bible. But there is so much deception in what's going on that it's amazing how many of God's people, young people, college students, elderly people, every age level are being caught up and it is so deceitful, so cunning, the way they approach.

The curiosity, all of us have curiosity. There's nothing wrong with curiosity as long as it's controlled. But when people offer you something they cannot give you without involving you in something you don't want to be a part of, then we're in danger. Satan can use natural curiosity to get you in serious trouble. Serious trouble.

Because there are demons, there are demonic forces, and we can't say that there is no evidence of any power in this because there is tremendous power in demonic forces. So you can't say it's all a hoax and there's nothing to it. The tragedy is there is something to it, but what is to it is all bad and evil. I want to encourage you to take no part in that whatsoever.

Now I want us to see what happened here with Samuel and Saul and this medium, and whether this is really Samuel or whether this is an evil spirit or demonic force. First of all, let's ask the question: what motivated Saul to go to the witch of En-dor, this medium, in the first place? Two things motivated him. First of all, fear and secondly, failure.

What was he afraid of? If you look there in the 28th chapter and notice beginning in that third verse, Samuel was dead, so he didn't have him to go to anymore. He had been buried. Saul had put away all the familiar spirits, all these people who were carrying on séances. The Philistines were gathering for a tremendous battle. In fact, this was the battle they intended to take care of Israel once and for all and forever.

The armies had pitched for the battle. Saul saw the host, the scripture says, the Philistines. He was afraid and his heart greatly trembled. So we have to ask what was Saul's motivation? He was scared and he wanted to find out what was going to happen. The same two motivations that cause many people today, many who are not Christians, to seek direction.

I hear some things over the television and listen to some people talk, and listen to people who are religious become involved in things that are so satanic, using scriptural terms, spiritual terms. It says to me they are absolutely totally blind to what they're participating in. This shows how far Saul had come because there are many scriptures in the Old Testament, two primarily, Exodus and Deuteronomy, where God said witches, sorcerers, mediums, they're not to be found in the nation of Israel.

God didn't want them among his people. And here's Saul, the first king of Israel, resorting to a medium to find out. What I'd like to do for the rest of the message is ask some questions because I want us to come to a conclusion here about who this really is that Saul is talking to. I want to ask you some questions and refer to some scriptures here and let us go through this together.

Let me ask first of all, if God ordered all the mediums to be killed, would he in turn use one to give divine instruction to the first man he called to be the king of Israel? If God said remove them from the land, would he in turn use one of those persons whom he said must be removed from the land in order to give direction to Saul at this time in his life?

Second question: would God refuse to speak to Saul through the proper means and then use a means that he himself had condemned? Saul had gone here, the scripture says, to Urim, the prophets, and to dreams, but God was silent. And here is a man who was at this time in his life earnestly seeking to know what to do. The Bible says that God had wrenched the kingdom from him.

Would God refuse to tell him the truth in the legitimate manner and then use a medium, that which is satanic, that which is devilish, in order to give him the right answer? Third question: could a medium, could a person who was violating the principles of God and under the judgment of God, could that person speak to a prophet of God who had gone to the place of the dead, which in the Old Testament is called Sheol?

Could a person on Earth recall in some way one of God's prophets? That certainly does not sound logical to me, nor scriptural to me. If you'll notice also what this person who is said to be Samuel said in verse 15, "And Samuel said to Saul, Why have you disturbed me to bring me up?" And Saul answered, "I'm sore distressed." Well, first of all, Saul didn't call him.

The witch or the medium here supposedly did, and yet the scripture says she too was frightened by what she saw and also the fact that when this image or this being came up, whoever this was, she also realized that she was there facing Saul. Another question we have to ask is this: in First Chronicles chapter 10 verse 13, the Bible says very clearly one of the reasons the next day Saul lost his life was because of this séance.

What we have to answer is this: would God have answered Saul's request at the séance, would God have done that and then judged him as a result of it? That was one of the two reasons he lost his life. One of them is because he disobeyed God in the beginning, in the earlier part of Samuel, as we discussed. Samuel told Saul that he was going to wrench the kingdom from him.

Would God have used something that he himself had condemned? Would he use a person that he had condemned? Would he kill him for doing something that he himself arranged? We have to answer that question. Now I want you to notice two or three things here in this passage. If you'll go with me to verse 11, "Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel."

First of all, if you'll notice what is not said and what is said here, Saul tells the medium whom he wants to speak to. And when the woman saw Samuel, or whatever this is, she cried with a loud voice. The woman spoke to Saul and said, "Why have you deceived me, for you are Saul?" And the king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What did you see?"

Saul didn't see it. She saw it. So Saul said, "What did you see?" The woman said, "I saw gods ascending out of the Earth." She didn't say, "I saw Samuel." She said, "I saw gods," or, "I saw this divine or supernatural being." And he said to her, "What form is he of?" And she said, "An old man cometh up, and he is covered with a mantle."

What did Saul tell her? He said, "I want to see Samuel." She knew all about, everybody knew who Samuel was. So she said, "He's an old man covered with a mantle." If you and I had been there, we'd have known that much. Saul perceived that it was Samuel. He did not see anything. He had not heard anything.

She told him what she saw, and she herself was frightened out of her wits because of what she saw because she was a fake. She'd been doing it for years. But all of a sudden, when she started this séance, surely, truly, some kind of a figure appeared and frightened even her. Saul perceived that it was Samuel and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed himself.

Samuel said to Saul, now what we have to ask is this: is this really and truly Samuel speaking in the light of all the questions I've asked, or is this a demonic spirit assuming the position of Samuel here, or is this really Samuel? Because whatever this is says, "Why have you disturbed me to bring me up?" And what we have to ask again is, could a medium disturb one of God's prophets who's in the presence of the Lord?

Could a medium bring up one of God's servants? Absolutely not. Absolutely could not do it. Somebody says, "But isn't that what it says?" No, it doesn't say that. It says that all of a sudden she saw something, not that she brought it up. Because there's only one of two answers here. And Saul answered, "I'm so distressed, for the Philistines make war against me and God is departed from me and so forth."

Then said Samuel, "Why do you ask me seeing the Lord's departed from you?" So that what you read in verses 16 all the way down through verse 19 is certainly in keeping with what Samuel had already said to Saul even before, except the fact that he says, "You and your son are going to die and you're going to be with me tomorrow and all the nation of Israel is going to be in the hands of the Philistines."

So let me ask you this: could a demonic spirit have said those words to Saul? Indeed, a demonic spirit could have. A demonic spirit could have said that. You say, "Wait a minute, it says that Samuel said it." I realize that. Let's go back to something else now. And I don't want you to think I'm questioning God's word, because I'm really not.

I want you to look in Mark chapter five and if you'll recall when the Gadarene demoniac, he came out, remember he'd been living in chains and he was strong, nobody could break them. And he was in fetters and chains and cutting himself, and verse five of Mark five says, always night and day he was in the mountains and the tombs crying and cutting himself with stones.

Now when he, this Gadarene demoniac, saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him and cried with a loud voice and said, "What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God that thou torment me not." Who was doing the talking? The demons within him were doing the talking.

The demon said, "You're Jesus Christ, the son of God, I adjure thee he says that you torment me not." Jesus said, "Come out of the man thou unclean spirit." And he asked him, "What is thy name?" And he answered saying, "My name is Legion for we are many." Now if that man, demonically filled, if the demons can say, "You're Jesus Christ, the son of God," could not this have been a demon that likewise knew the circumstances of Saul's life?

Well, there are a lot of questions here, and it all boils down to this: one of two things. Either this was Samuel and God used one time in a very special way, he used what he would not normally use to get a message to Saul, or this was a demonic spirit. So it had to be one of two, and I must leave you to make your own choice.

But I can tell you this: there is absolutely no way of using this passage of scripture as a reason for seeking or participating in a séance. And this is one passage of scripture that those people who supposedly are Christians use. They say, "Well, we can take you back to the Bible and show you an incident where God spoke through a medium to get a message to one of his choice servants, the first king of Israel, who was Saul."

Besides that, he used one of his choice prophets, Samuel, and they'll use that very passage right there. And if you don't have the other side of the picture, you may be swept up in that, or read when somebody says, "Well, here is biblical grounds for believing that all séances are not bad." I want to tell you all of them are wicked and evil. All of them are straight out of hell and there's not one way in the world to prove that God approves of them.

Look if you will in First Timothy just for a moment. First Timothy and chapter four and verse one. He says, "Now the spirit, the Holy Spirit, speaketh expressly, very clearly, that in latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed, that is paying attention to, giving themselves over to, seducing spirits." And doctrines of devils and demons and that is exactly what we have in the occult.

We have seducing spirits and doctrines of devils and demons. And he says in the latter times that some will depart from the faith, giving heed to, paying attention to, curiosity, being deceived through curiosity and swept into some form of cult or the occult. Let me tell you what the devil does. Usually, he's got the most attractive colors and the attractive covers to attract our attention.

And there are so many things floating around today, and some of them have enough truth oftentimes to suck the believer right in before you know it, you've got a problem. Now listen. God's people ought to stay away from anything that even looks like it. Movies, these horror movies, you be careful what's mixed up in the midst of all that.

If you like watching that, I tell you what you need to do. You need to ask yourself the question, is your spirit right with God? You say, "Oh, I just like mystery." That's not mystery, that's satanic. And if you let your children watch that stuff, I'm here to tell you, you are just building into them a weakness or a toehold for Satan to get into their lives.

We have to be careful what we watch, what we read, what we listen to, and with whom we associate and what we bring into our homes. Satan will use inanimate objects as well as animate objects to get a toehold in our life. I simply say all that to say nobody can use that passage of scripture as a biblical basis in any way for stirring up your curiosity to say here is biblical ground for the fact that all séances are not bad.

Because if by some chance God did use the witch of En-dor or Samuel giving a message from the dead to Saul, it was a one-time that God used in a very extraordinary case, not to be repeated, because there's no other evidence in the Bible that God ever has anybody coming from the dead. Or otherwise, it is a camouflage demonic spirit that gave Saul a message, of course, which came true the next day. He and his son were killed. The Philistines took the nation of Israel.

So my purpose for that is information and let you make your own decision about which of the two. I do not believe you can be dogmatic because the scripture is not totally clear as to which of the two. But the ultimate question is, do we and can we ever have a part in anything like this and be legitimate? And the answer is absolutely not.

Father, I want to ask you for somebody here tonight who's been playing around out of curiosity, out of fun, they think. Somebody who's becoming involved, has been involved, has been in the drug culture. Somebody who's in the very process of rationalizing away moral purity, or whose curiosity has them investigating the occult, reading the literature.

Someone who's listening to some friend or someone with whom they work who's involved in any single area of this. So we want to pray in Jesus' name and by his shed blood tonight that somebody here who is in any way involved would get on their face before you in repentance and ask you to clean up their heart, their mind, and begin to saturate with the cleansing word of God their mind that they might be cleansed of every single facet of it and that you might lock them in, Lord, to your security. And this is my prayer in Jesus' name. Amen.

Guest (Male): Demonic forces are very real, and Dr. Stanley's message warned us of the danger of toying around with these things. Our security and trust are to be placed in Jesus Christ and him alone. To listen again, click Today on Radio at intouch.org. And that's where you can learn more about Jesus and what he accomplished with his death and resurrection.

Open our online bookstore if you'd like to order a copy of Dr. Stanley's complete message today. It's called "Talking with the Dead." It's also included in his Pursuing God's Heart teaching set. Our web address again is intouch.org. Or you can call or text us at the number 1-800-INTOUCH. You can also write to us at In Touch, Post Office Box 7900, Atlanta, Georgia, 30357. And again, our phone number is 1-800-INTOUCH.

Dr. Charles Stanley: Have you ever forgotten something God taught you when you were reading the Bible? When we take note of what God reveals to us, it helps us to apply it to our lives.

Guest (Female): With the Charles F. Stanley Life Principles Journal, you can keep track of your spiritual journey and be transformed by God's truths. This journal features artwork of Dr. Stanley's 30 life principles, lined pages for writing, a prayer journaling section, and more. To order, call 1-800-INTOUCH or go to intouch.org/journal.

Guest (Male): This is In Touch. What does it really indicate if you're seeking direction for your life from the stars? With a warning for believers, here's a moment with Charles Stanley.

Dr. Charles Stanley: Now I've heard Christians say, "Well, if somebody would just give me some insight into what's going to happen. If I just knew what was going to happen." You know why Christians read the astrological signs? Let's be honest, why do they do it? Listen, if you know how to pray and talk to God and get answers from him, I guarantee you, you don't need to be asking anybody else but the Lord. And the last thing you need to do is to go to anything that Satan has contrived to get an answer.

Listen, if you go to Satan for an answer, what kind of answer are you going to get? Is it some divine direction from God? By no means. If you go to Satan for an answer, you're going to get Satan's answer. If you read an astrological sign that says so-and-so is going to happen tomorrow, you're going to get up the next day thinking what? If you're really honest, you're going to get up, if you read those things, that's going to be in your mind.

All Satan's looking for is the opportunity to implant something in your mind to get your thinking going that way. And what happens? When you begin to think a certain way and you begin to think, "Well, you know, I wonder... I heard my friend say she read that thing and it worked, you know, it may work for me tomorrow. I don't believe anything about it, but it might work."

And so what happens? Little by little, psychologically, you begin to move and make decisions in a situation that what you read may come to pass. But I want to tell you, it wasn't because Satan prophesied. It's because you allowed yourself to be swayed and sometimes, most of the time, subconsciously, to move in a certain direction.

We ought to stay away from it. But you see, if a Christian is reading that junk, it's because you're confessing you don't know how to hear from God. And I'm telling you, you ought to say to your children, "Don't do it." To your teenagers, "Don't read that stuff. It is straight from hell." How do I know that? Because it doesn't fit anything God teaches us in the Word.

Guest (Male): Learn more about worshipping the creator, not his creation, at intouch.org. And if this program challenged you to grow up in your faith, tell us what you learned. Coming soon on In Touch, our series on Pursuing God's Heart continues as we'll hear about the true test of character. I hope you'll join us again for In Touch, the teaching ministry of Dr. Charles Stanley.

This program is a presentation of In Touch Ministries, Atlanta, Georgia, and remains on the station through the grace of God and your faithful prayers and gifts.