Forever Love

Bret: Welcome to the Brave Wisdom Podcast, where courage fuels radical focus and wisdom cuts through the lies. Today we have an awesome guest, someone who not only is my friend, but he's like a brother to me and I often introduce him to others as one of my favorite people.

Literally, this guy we met playing pickleball at a fellowship event and from there the conversation never ends. And that might be the case today. This conversation may never end because Calvin and I have some lunch meetings that last two or three hours. But I love this man. He is a pastor, he is a relationship coach, and he is really bringing some conversation to this space of relationships and marriage. I'm so excited to have him on the show. Please welcome Pastor Cal Cope, Calvin Copeland.

Calvin Copeland: Man, I'm so glad to be here, so excited to be here, Bret. You're exactly right. Just to remind you, we met at that pickleball and I think the next day we scheduled a meeting. I think you were a little bit surprised that I was so quick about it, but some people you can just tell. I don't need to waste any time. I need to get there really quickly. So yeah, and you're right, we've been talking ever since and typically we have to tell one another, okay, we got to go, we got to go.

Bret: And you'll find that I tell you he's fascinating. What you're doing is fascinating. The questions you're asking are fascinating and the way you serve people. That's what I'm so excited about. The guests that I have on the show are often simply leaders and people who love people. I see that in you every time I meet you. You love people. You love helping them heal, helping them go through some hard stuff.

So, I'll start with this question. I know you and one of the profound questions that you wrestle with is how can love last forever? So how did this question in your mind, how did it take root in your heart and how has it shaped your approach to what you do now in relationship coaching?

Calvin Copeland: Well, I'll try to give you the short-long answer. I first of all married my childhood sweetheart. And when I say childhood sweetheart, I mean I was 12 years old when she walked into church and I elbowed my brother and I said, "That's the one." Now I'm getting ready to cross 60, so I now realize how crazy that sounds. But you can relate. You married your high school sweetheart too.

And so about five years ago when I had my 30th anniversary, it was right at the beginning of COVID and my daughter did this wonderful video presentation of family and friends congratulating us on the 30 years. And she bought us a trip to Cabo for the anniversary. She's a wonderful, wonderful daughter.

But needless to say, we couldn't do the trip for two years because of COVID and we were all stuck in the house. And I kept getting phone calls congratulating us on the 30 years, but I also got this question from four different people across the country and it was the same question. Like, how are you doing that? And I was like, how am I doing what? No, he said, "You all don't just look like you're married, you look like you still like each other."

The first time I laughed, the second time I giggled, and the third time I thought, you mean there's people out here married and they're not liking each other? So as I engaged in conversations with all of these different people, I kept coming up with these same stories and they were the stories around the decisions that I had made during my courting process, literally dating all the way back to 14 years old.

So many people look at our relationship, my marriage, like a fairy tale. So my podcast is entitled "How Love Can Last Forever After All." And so I try to take the whole it's a fairy tale and love happens to you out of the equation and help people understand, no, you really do have control over how your relationships go.

It's not that some people are lucky and some people, no. We may not realize we're doing some work, but if we like waking up in the morning and seeing the person next to us, we're doing some work. That's not just happening to us. And so I approach marriage with this purpose in mind. I believe that the purpose of marriage is to heal your heart.

And I think that what many people consider to be the purpose of marriage really is what marriage produces. So then it can't be having children because there's some marriages that can't have children. It can't be building wealth because there's some marriages that so you can easily eliminate many of the things that the Bible says that marriages will produce to confirm that's not what their purpose is.

And so I think about Ephesians and I'll tell you the real story. I was married a couple of years and my wife and I were having a discussion. Back then it was an argument. And I remember I literally went to my little prayer room and I went looking for the scriptures because I needed to talk to her about submission.

I was looking for some more ammo. She needed to understand. And so I got to Ephesians and I got to 5:21 and it said submit you unto another as unto I said, no, there's another one in here. Not that one. I got a little further. Wives submit. There it is. There it is. Wives submit to your husbands. But I kept reading. You got to keep reading, especially those passages.

Right, and I don't ever want to not be contextually sound so I kept reading. It says wives, love your husbands, husband love your wives as Christ loved the church, washing them with the water of the word to remove all wrinkles, stains, and blemishes to present them back to yourself. And I remember I went into the room angry, shuffling through scriptures. When I read what I was supposed to do as a husband like Christ did to me, I immediately said I can't do that.

I can't love her like you love me. And he said, "Yeah, but you do know you're the bride and the groom, don't you?" And I said, "What?" He said "Read it again. Husband love your wives as Christ loved the church. Are you the church? You saved?" I said, "Yeah." "So what do I do for you? I wash you with the water of this word to remove all of your wrinkles, your stains, and your blemishes."

He said, "And don't stop reading, because when you do that, she will come back to you without a wrinkle, stain, or blemish." So my eyes were illuminated to understand that if I figure out how to wash her with the word, and that doesn't mean preaching to her. Faith without works is dead. And so if I learn how to look at this word and to apply it to the wrinkles, stains, and blemishes that are in her life.

Now here's the other thing I love about that scripture. It doesn't say if you have wrinkles, stains, and blemishes. That's not even a part of God's discussion. We all have wrinkles, stains, and blemishes.

Bret: And as you were talking, one of the things when you said wash, it's not preaching. The idea that came to my mind was Jesus washing his disciples' feet. I mean, I think that washing is an act of service, an act of sacrifice. And I think that's sometimes how we need to approach, especially our wives. We wash them in a way of humility, service, and love and sacrifice.

Calvin Copeland: So now let me switch this up a little bit. You say especially our wives. Can I challenge you that we really should be loving everybody that way? And so if we would learn that in every relationship, then the difficulty they say that marriage is becomes a whole lot easier. Becomes a whole lot easier.

And so this whole concept of the purpose of marriage is to heal your heart. Once again, the reason why Jesus came down here was to get us saved, to give us access to heaven again. But I often say this: is the blood that Jesus had in the cradle, did it have the same power as it did on the cross? Yes. So theoretically, if it was only about getting to heaven, then he could have been slain in the cradle and we would have access to heaven.

So then the question is, why did he live here for 33 and a half years? To show us the way and to be the truth and the light. And to show us the way to get healed. Now many people say show us the way to be transformed into his likeness and image. But I'll ask you this question: can you be transformed into the image of Christ without getting healed?

I think that's the entire process. It is. And the deeper work, it requires that you confront the areas of your life that aren't healed. Because I don't want to be the guy that says, well, God, I cast out demons in your name and God, I got these many people saved, and he turns around and says, "I don't know you." Why would it be that he wouldn't know me? Maybe it's because I'm still wounded, busted, and disgusted and I've been producing without being connected to the purpose.

Bret: And you know, I want to bring something there too, because I've been contemplating this lately. That the root of a lot of the things that we hide when it comes to maybe seeking healing or going to counseling for that matter, those roots are often rooted in these three things that I read about which are fear, which is what happened in the garden, guilt, and the one that got me and I've been thinking about a lot is shame.

I think there's a lot of shame that people carry these days, whether it be something that happened that they've never allowed to even come out, or they're hiding something. Man, can you speak into that and how this whole principle of healing, you've got to confront those things.

Calvin Copeland: Well, the first question I want to ask you is how would you separate the difference between guilt and shame?

Bret: So guilt I feel is like you they're kind of they're going to be connected, aren't they? I think guilt has a lot to do I think with other people sometimes, like if I did something to someone else I would feel guilt of that action and behavior that provided harm. Whereas I think shame is that constant feeling like something's wrong with me or and it may have to do that that might be one of the things. If you're guilty of something, you're guilty. I mean, those are sometimes the ones that are more evident. The one that I'm wrestling with recently, maybe that's just where you can apply it and even minister to me, is that shame is this idea that there's something wrong with me. Like I've I'm hiding or I'm not good enough.

Calvin Copeland: I got you. Well and once again, when I talk about how love can last forever and I talk about this whole it's not just especially our spouses, but that includes us too. Remember Jesus said, "It's real simple. Love the Lord God with all your heart, soul, and strength and love your neighbor as yourself."

And the one part that I find whenever I'm coaching is people don't realize how much they do not love themselves. And so how do we know that we don't love ourselves? Is if love is patient and love is kind and I can't be patient with you, what what is that about? Is that because there's some wounded place in me? Is that because there's something going on in me? Because once again, I'm supposed to be transformed into his image. Jesus was very patient.

Right, and so and then you know, so when you ask the question around the guilt and the shame, I think that what many people from a legalistic standpoint think, oh, I shouldn't feel that way. What I see is, oh, that's God trying to show me something that he wants to heal in me. So that's why whenever people say I want to be transformed, I kind of try to exchange that with I want to be healed.

Because the Bible says this: the heart is desperately wicked and no man knows what it's capable of. And so that means me. I have no idea what my heart is capable of. But that's not just a capable of of doing bad things. That's also I don't know how capable it is of doing the right thing. And so if I understand whatever is hindering me from being able to walk in the fruits of the spirit is an indication that God wants to do something to heal me.

Bret: You know, when Leslie and I first sought marital counseling, it was because there was a moment in our marriage where we're like, "Hey, something's up." And we began to experience this feeling of like something is beginning to be wedged between us that we can't really explain and we don't know how to do it ourselves, so we need help.

So we had enough wisdom in people around us even and then you know, by the grace of God like the connections you make and we found ourselves on the couch of a wonderful counselor. And it was amazing. And you know, it was one of those things my wife was ready to go and I being the husband was like, "Ah, do we really need it? I don't know."

So I was hesitant, I'll be honest, but then when I met the man, his name is Dave Galbraith. You've met him. Dave is one of my favorite people on earth. But we sat on his couch and I can tell you that was a transformative moment in I can trace back a lot of growth in Leslie and I. So I know I'm not the only one and we're not the only couple that have experienced that. So talk to that person that is where Leslie and I were and where many are today. What do they need to do and how can they meet someone like you or what would you say to them?

Calvin Copeland: I think the first thing is let's revisit what is our objective. In other words, what game are we playing? And so, you know, people oftentimes when they say, how do you define a wife, they go to Proverbs 31. And I go, "That scripture never said anything about a wife. It is a virtuous woman, it's not a wife."

And so people respond like you just responded. "Whoa, wait, what are you talking about?" But I'll go back to Ephesians. Husbands love your wives like Christ loved the church, washing them with the water of the word to remove their wrinkles, stains, and blemishes. So that means that a wife is someone who's been washed in the water of the word. A wife is somebody who understands what it means to be washed in the water of the word.

So now couple of things. One, that takes away this whole thought process of I've got to be perfect before I get married. I've got to be healed before I get married. No, what I need to know is what it takes to get healed and what it takes to get healed is the word of God.

And so when you talk about meeting with Dave, who I've met with too and I love, love the man, did you find that as you felt like this wedge between you and Leslie that really it was some personal wounded places that showed up for both of you guys that neither one of you knew how to minister to the other?

Bret: There you go. We were both hurting. You're exactly right. Like there was pain that she experienced, pain that I experienced, and then there was some combined pain. But you're right. It was we didn't know what to do. We didn't have the tools or even the truth to unpack those lies. I think that's something too is that we need to approach the word of God, which is truth, to literally dismantle the lies and the narratives and the things we tell ourselves.

Calvin Copeland: Yeah, the things we tell ourselves or the things that have been told to us. All of those things. One of the things that has always been consistent for me is if it doesn't line up with what I know the word to say, I get really confused. And I have found that there are some people who may have some thought processes about the word of God and I'll go, "Well no, that doesn't make sense with this."

And what I found is that if they get irritated that I am questioning or I'm confused, then I know that I need to separate myself really quickly because you're not concerned about getting to the truth of the word. You're stuck in however you got to the paradigm that you're in. And so it becomes really, really critical that I have people in my life space that we can wrestle with the word and walk away knowing that the word is the authority.

One of the things I love about and the reason why you and I have these extended long lunches is because we'll get into a concept that comes out of the word of God and we're just pickleballing back and forth to each other, if you will, to find a deeper truth. And there and I've never felt the whole "I'm right and you're wrong." I love those relationships because they're healing to me. It's a very healing thing to be able to wrestle with the word with somebody else knowing that both of you guys' objective is to get to the truth of the word.

And same thing in marriage. You know, I still to this day want to see my wife heal. Like the Bible talks about how she's a reflection of me. And if she's looking messed up, I feel horrible. Like more than how big my house is or what kind of car I drive and all how's your wife looking? Does she like to see you coming? That has always been a staple for me since I was 14.

And so it's shaped where I am. The reason why I got out of corporate America. I was in corporate America doing well to the point that I got promoted down here to San Antonio from Buffalo, New York. Go Bills, go. And about seven, eight months into being down here, the VP offered me a promotion.

And it was substantial in terms of pay raise, in terms of all of the bells and whistles, company car, company credit card, all that kind of stuff. And then he said, "Yeah, and you'll be traveling three weeks out of every month." And I said, "I'm sorry, I can't take that job." And he was like, "What?"

And I literally I was sitting with my district manager and my regional VP and I told them I couldn't take the job and he looked at my boss and they were looking like, "Did you just waste my time?" And I literally got up and I opened the office door and I said, "If you can bring one of those guys in here that's not divorced, I'll take the job." He could not.

So the next time we have to redistrict our areas, our zones, I got redistricted into a place that had a bunch of empty warehouses and stuff like I didn't have enough population to meet my quotas. And once again, I have yet to meet anybody on their deathbed who wishes they had made more money, who wishes they had had whatever the trappings of life is. Most people wish and pray that they don't die alone.

Bret: You know, oftentimes it's the first step, right, to make change. What are some first steps that either a husband or a wife can make in the areas of their relationship that could start the road to healing?

Calvin Copeland: I think you hit it right on the head when you talked about how you and Leslie realized that there was something off and you needed to get another voice in. I really do think that it's important that you begin to ask the Lord to help you to find the person who will help you understand his point of view.

I've got a replacement knee and I first injured it in 1982 and I never had any medical anything surgically done to it until 2015. But the only reason I ended up going to get it is because my other knee started bothering me, my other hip started falling out of place. So I went to a physical therapist, they fixed my walk. When they fixed my walk, my bad knee started popping out again.

Because I had made so many adjustments so that my knee wouldn't pop out that it started messing up my other knee, it started messing up my hip. So then I had to get a new knee. Oftentimes people know something is wrong and they'll ignore it or they'll make adjustments until they get to this place that they're so out of whack, but it still doesn't hit to the initial cause.

But you know something is wrong. And I say this to a lot of people: don't treat your healing like an emergency room. Like, if you and I were in the woods and I broke my ankle, the first thing that you would do is you would get two sticks, you'd wrap them around my ankle, you'd wrap some cloth around it to stabilize it and immobilize it until we can get to a place that's going to put it in a cast.

Once I get out of that cast and my bone has now mended, now I got to go through therapy to strengthen it. Can I tell you how many people are walking around relationally still in the two sticks with the cloth wrapped around them claiming that they're healed? While we're in the woods, it kept me alive. If we hadn't done that, I could have died. And so what many people struggle with is they have been doing something that their memory of it is it's what kept them alive.

Now let's talk about how do we deal with the wounded place. It ain't ignoring it, it ain't compartmentalizing it. If you got an infection and you go, "Well just go to sleep, it'll be alright," you're going to wake up in the morning and you're going to lose a limb.

And people today want quick fixes. Everything's fast. Even when I started my healing journey, it's like I want to accelerate my healing. Accelerating your healing, that's a nice thought, but it's going to take some time. Well, and then the other piece is there is the idea of accelerating it from the perspective of getting a full understanding of what it takes to get healed, but the biggest part of that understanding is understanding you're going to be doing that for the rest of your life. That it's a process. It is the journey itself.

Bret: And then you know, I think another thing that I would say as I was so fixated on outcomes because that's not hard for me to think of okay, yeah, I'm going to do this and this is going to happen in the future, but I think and I'm pressed towards a lot of like focus goals, but the reality is I'm learning now, even in the stage where I'm at in this podcast and everything, it's the moment.

It's the actual day-to-day moments that you need to be present for and I think that's something that a lot of this deeper work and reflection and this time with coaches and counselors and all this stuff has done for me. It's like I used to strive so much and not just live. And I think even in my marriage, Leslie and I always had aspirations and goals within our careers as well as with our family and our children and all the things, but I think we're coming to a pace in life finally that we're living and walking together and enjoying life together and enjoying each other much more and having conversations.

I wanted to go back to that because I think this is a symptom of a lot of people is that they don't simply realize they're not communicating and not spending time talking to one another. And I think they think they do, but if you have kids like Leslie and I do, the conversations you have during the week are not really that helpful and they're not real conversations. And so Leslie and I are still working on this, but date nights are important, our alignment meetings is something we added. So speak to those relationships too and the people that are struggling maybe because they're not even talking to each other the way they should.

Calvin Copeland: Once again, I always like to lay the foundation. The very first thing that God said was it was not good to be alone. And what you just described, Matthew 6:33 just kept jumping up in my head. Seek first the kingdom of God and all of his righteousness and all of these things will be added unto you.

So if it's not good for man to be alone, that means God wants us in relationships with him and with each other. And so if we would first once again understand that's the game we're in: how do we strengthen our relationship with God and how do we strengthen our relationship with each other? If we understand that, then like I love your when you told me about your alignment meetings, I was like, oh, I love that.

Now, you got what 18, 19 kids at house? How many kids you got? Four. Leslie shut us down. I could have had more. Factory closed. So you know, with four kids and your oldest kid is in high school still? He's turning 15, he's in high school. Oh man. And I got another one going to high school next year. I'm like wow, high school's another whole level. Your time clock starts going away.

And your youngest is first grade. So you got tenth grade to first grade that you are wrestling with and there's four kids and so you're right. The necessity of prioritizing your time for you and Leslie is so critical. And once again, I think every goal that you guys had back in the beginning can not just be met but be exceeded when it becomes a result of seeking first the kingdom of God and all of his righteousness.

And so we've had some talks and I think things are going wonderfully for you now in the world of business kind of thing, but it's almost taken a back seat to what is happening for the connection that you and Leslie are having.

Bret: Yeah, I would say it's much more balanced now. I think we both are ambitious and I think we got personality testing one time and they looked at both of our profiles and someone said something along the lines of either you're going to really propel each other or you're going to compete with each other.

And it's because we're both very driven, ambitious. My wife's incredibly she's got big dreams and those dreams her grandfather was a dreamer and you know, even in he dropped this this dream in her heart. And my grandmother too dropped so much in our legacy. So that's the truth. But I think you're right, it's this constant realization that Leslie and I have our own desires as you spoke earlier, but when you share them and when we share our lives and when we compliment each other the best way we can or even solve issues together, like actually issues that we don't want to solve sometimes.

And that's the truth. We do the work. The alignment meetings, she'll tell you and if she we might need to bring her on the podcast with you and that'd be even fun. I'm intent. My energy level we did alignment meeting for the business and I'm up here and we go at it, but then we like realize oh, it's business, not separation. But the reality is those intensity moments that even my excitement and energy level they're often centered around an issue that we're trying to solve.

And I think that's the difference. We're on the same page as we're not leaving this room until we deal with this problem because it keeps coming up on this list and we're going to find a way. And I think that's where we've got to a point we can do it ourselves, but I know that there are many listening they need another voice, a trusted voice, someone that can ask questions and help them navigate these spaces.

Calvin Copeland: So now let me let me show you something. When God starts talking to Adam and Eve after the fall, watch this. He said, "Eve, now your heart's desire is going to be to control your husband but your husband is going to rule over you." Okay, now unpack that because that can get misinterpreted.

Yeah, so what that now means is because I (God) am no longer in the picture and you guys are not going to submit to me, you all are going to fight for power. You literally just said somebody said you're either going to conquer the world or you're going to blow it up. You're going to compete.

Because you guys, whether you guys have identified it or not, you keep putting God in first. What is naturally in her and what's naturally in you will now compliment each other. I see that. Without God, it'll blow it up.

Bret: And I think you're right and even a step further, it's God and it's this this revelation of truth or or this framing as you said, both of us desire to be healed. And I think this journey we've been on and I've shared it on this podcast already, I recognized early on and many people don't get the opportunity that I had because their problems sometimes they get it gets too far and they have a major burnout or failure.

I recognized where my road was going and I said, mm-mm, this is not the way I'm going to live. And I had people like my parents whose marriages were so strong and they've been married 50 years. I mean, this is the legacy that I've inherited and and all those things. And I think too I turned my heart towards my wife and I think that's what you're talking about. Even as we both pursue goals now, our hearts are open towards one another and they're not always driven by the success or the ambition. We stay positionally open to one another and I think that's the difference.

Calvin Copeland: Yeah, and this is where I also like to emphasize this is that no two marriages are the same. Right. And so that's why it's even more important to be unified on the purpose for marriage because what I need is not what you need. And so this whole concept of who's in the kitchen and who's in the garage, I think too often the enemy has used that to create wedges.

Because there are some men who love to cook, there are some women who are great mechanics. And if you think that what qualifies you to be a spouse either way is whether or not you fit the traditional roles, you are sadly mistaken. Now, as a Black man, if you look at statistical data, there is no more educated population than Black females.

So they could make a ton of money and they often talk to me about their difficulties to find spouses. And we have to dig out what does your snowflake look like? Like what's important to you? And you know, when you start to look at it from a heart healing perspective, a lot of the things that society will tell you really won't need to line up with you.

Yeah, and so like you and I have been in conversations and I peep and I listen to the way your snowflake is with Leslie and I love it. Because you're right, the first time I saw her was at Dave's event and she was the MC and I thought, "How did Bret get her?"

But then I turned around and saw your wedding pictures that you posted for an anniversary and I said, "Oh, that's how he got her." And so clearly you can see what many people in the world would call a power couple, going to get it and all that kind of good stuff, but once again having walked with you for a little bit, I know some healing places that you guys have had to go through.

And I love it when I hear you guys say, "Listen, with everything that we're doing, with all these kids running around this house, we are learning how to continue to prioritize each other." Now, people often ask me and I'm going to ask you, how do you think you keep the passion alive? Because how many years have y'all been married?

Bret: We're going on 18. 18 in about five years beyond that, so 23.

Calvin Copeland: So for 23 years, do you still have people asking you about, "Man, y'all still look like y'all in y'all honeymoon"? Do you get that ever?

Bret: Sometimes, but you know it's it's true. You know I'll answer it this way and I think this is kind of what's grounded us. Leslie can do two things: she can drive me crazy sometimes, as anyone can, and we drive each other she'll say the same thing about me, I know.

But at the same time, she's so fascinating. And I think the fascination in just the exploration in seeing her every day and just the beauty of her, that fascinates me enough to say I'm going to keep her around. No, I'm just kidding. I'm going to pursue her more and understand her more. And I think too, you know, voices like yourself have have helped me think about that and this idea of I want to support her healing and I want to be the shepherd of her healing.

And I think that's important in my children. One of the things Leslie and I have talked about in that way of healing too is that we want to heal ourselves so our kids see this work in us and it doesn't affect them. Because I can tell you we want them to to go to another level. And that's another part of it. But yeah, go ahead, I can see you're getting.

Calvin Copeland: Well and let me say this. You *do* want it to affect them. And what I mean by that is you want them to see you guys learning how to heal. I'm in coaching sessions and oftentimes I'll get a parent who will say, "I came from this dysfunctional family and I don't want my child to come from a dysfunction and what should I do?"

And I'd say the best thing you can do for your child is to get healed yourself and to love your spouse as unconditionally as possible. That is the absolute best thing you can do for your child. When they see that, it becomes the legacy that they strive after, but also on a very basic level it provides safety for them.

So like my wife and I when we have our discussions, we very seldom hide them from our daughter. Very seldom. And then we're able to have questions when you know she'll ask, you know, "Dad, what was that about? Mom, what was that about?" And we'll talk about it.

And so like and this is a little self-disclosing. You know, one of the events that happened in our lives is we had our house foreclosed when they had the big foreclosure epidemic. We had our house foreclosed on us and it was really traumatizing to me. Like just having to say it to you, I have to fight the emotion of it.

And still to this day, some of the residual of it is opening mail, going to a mailbox. And so like I want to be the first one to see the mail. I don't want right. And so we were going out of town or something and my daughter goes now mind you for years my wife and I have had these discussions around tell me everything and all that kind of stuff. And we're continuing to heal from that process.

But this was the gift. My wife and I no longer argue about it because now she sees it as a wounded place for me. She doesn't she doesn't see it as me being a weak man, she doesn't see it as me trying to hide something from her, she sees it as the trauma place that it is.

So then we're going out of town, my daughter's staying at home and she goes, "Can I have the mail key?" and I literally start having a visible physical response. And my wife says to my daughter, "Give Dad a little grace, you know, he's dealing with some stuff around there." She doesn't go into the detail of it, we don't go real deep, but she is now communicating to my daughter what does it look like when your spouse is dealing with a wounded place.

Bret: You got me thinking now. And so once again, the best thing that we can do in terms of strengthening and building our legacies is do we model the energy that it takes to be committed to our healing and to be focused on helping those who we love to heal?

I'm not talking about enabling, I'm not talking about dysfunctional action, I'm not talking about any of that stuff. Like there have been times my wife will go "What's wrong?" and I'll go "I don't know, but I'm going to go pray about it and when I get something I'm coming to you." She knows she's not my source and I know she's not my source. That's good. But there is nothing that is more healing than for you to just acknowledge you see me struggle.

I know I can't do nothing for you, but I see you struggle. Hey, you okay? No, I'm not, but I'm going to get there. And once again now watch this, Bret. How many times have you and I done that for each other at lunch? Right. I think that's what brothers do, right? That's what we do.

That's what's supposed to happen in relationships. And so you know, as you were talking, the lightbulb's going off in this concept of and I may say it this way even for the way I see it, is you've let your wife into the hidden places of your life. Not all of them. Not all of them, but you're right.

And I reflect on that because I think you know, that's the difference maker. And that that allows her to fulfill her role in helping to heal my heart, helping obviously I know she's not the source, but she certainly is for me. My Leslie's, you know, the greatest source of love on the earth towards me. I definitely feel that and that source of love is what I think propels healing.

But I love this and I heard you say it a few times and I think this is just such a beautiful application of our entire discussion, is that in relationships, that idea and a lot of people are calling it vulnerability and authenticity, but it's really allowing people to know your wounds and your hurts and the places you struggle.

As men, I think often times we don't want to do that because we want to be the provider, the protector, the sacrifice. I talked about and I read a study that we've just been ingrained by culture that we are here even to give our lives, whether it be military and other things through the course of centuries now. And that is the reality of civilization, that men sacrifice for the women and children. But I think the detriment to marriage in that case, and they talked about this, is that we kill ourselves almost.

Calvin Copeland: I love where you're going with it and here's the deal with it. Not only are we killing ourselves, but what you say: guilt, shame, what was the other? Fear. And fear. Think about it. Adam and Eve ate from the tree and the first thing they did was hide. And this is what I love about the text. God said, "Where are you?" Now we know that God knows where you are. But where are you?

And so the whole thought process around I let her in. There's a saying, being heard is so close to being loved it's hard to tell the difference. Being heard looks so much like being loved it's hard to tell the difference.

But watch this. Being heard. If I don't know what to say, how can you hear me? So if I don't if I haven't begun the process of identifying what my wounded places are, I ain't got nothing to say for you to hear. And if I if I'm digested all these things that the world has told me what a man's supposed to do, men don't cry, suck it up, sacrifice, and I do all of that stuff.

So I've never processed what I'm wounded with, so I can't tell you. If I can't tell you, you can't hear me. If you can't hear me, I don't feel loved.

Bret: Yeah, and then you don't feel loved and that draws you apart. And before you know it, that's the hardening of the heart.

Calvin Copeland: And can I tell you how many men that I coach to try to get them to understand this is the reason why you keep having the same cycle, because you haven't even identified your wounded place. So your significant others can't love you. So yeah, you get satisfied physically and yeah, you know, you look like you got it all together outside and then you go home and you are miserable.

And once again, it is the tactic from the enemy. He hasn't changed anything since Genesis 3. No. He's just magnified it. So now instead of just having the choice of God or the tree, now you got a million and one dating sites and you got all this other stuff. And then there is this paradox of choice, which immobilizes us.

Yeah, it's and so one of the things that I find is once people understand the why, it makes it so much easier for them to navigate moving forward. Now I've had to coach some couples who decided they're not going to do the work with each other. And once again, I tell them that's your decision. Your relationships are a choice, they don't happen to you.

But can I tell you that every one of those individuals still contact me today and thank me because they now know what they should be looking for in relationship moving forward. Then my job is done. Because you need to understand that you're always going to make as much as I say first time I saw my wife I was 12 years old, I said she's the one, I have never said the Lord told me that was my wife. It just doesn't make sense. I have to make a choice to choose him, and then once I choose him now he going to tell me who my wife is? No, you got free will, you got choice.

Right. And so when people try to I married the wrong no, no. You just don't want to do the work with that one. And the truth be told, and this is where I really mess people up, marriage can work with any two people if they do it God's way. I can agree with that. But we have choice.

Bret: So Calvin, as you've been talking throughout, I had this thought. One of the most famous TED talks of all time was Simon Sinek's "Start with Why." And if I can connect the dots here, I think that's what you're helping people do. You're going back to the why of marriage, the purpose of marriage.

And then he talks about too that when you get the why right, the how and the what just kind of flow. And I think that's what I'm most excited for people to hear today, is that a lot of us are focusing on the how and the what of our relationships. But if we go back to the why, that changes the game, doesn't it?

Calvin Copeland: Bret, you hit it right on the head. And the way that I try to differentiate because remember marriages are like snowflakes. So if I understand why I have a hammer in my hand, then I know how to use it. But I also know not to use it on a screw.

Do I have the right tool in my hand? Now you come to find out that there are a dozen different types of hammers, depending on the surface I'm hitting, depending on what I want to accomplish. And so once I get the why, and that is to secure the two pieces of wood, once I get the why is to get healing, now I know what hammer to get, I know what screw to get, I know what screwdriver to use.

And once again, it just becomes so much easier for every individual marriage to map out the course that God has designed for them based on their wounded places and their understanding of how to heal from it. You're exactly right. I got to go back and watch that TED Talk because I'm sure I'll probably get some great nuggets out of it.

But absolutely, it's the why. And once again, I didn't realize it when I was 14 years old, but the why had got established in me and it literally shaped the way I made decisions now. Not only did it keep my wife's heart healthy, it kept my heart healthy. And when I went back to my 40th reunion, it helped me to realize that I was helping to heal other people's hearts too.

Bret: And I think it just goes to say that I mean, I know you and I know you've processed the pain. You've dealt with your wounded places. And I think it emphasizes again to those that are listening, the people that can have the ability like Pastor Cal Cope here to offer healing or offer coaching to others are those that have gone there already.

And so I want to encourage those listening, the idea that you've arrived or you've got all the wisdom you need, that's a deception. Every day you got to have the courage to deal with the places in your life you got to deal with. The courage to even talk to your wife about things you probably don't want to talk about.

The courage to call a friend like Calvin up for lunch and say, "Calvin, I'm hurting. I'm needing a conversation." That took courage and it did. I didn't do that for years. I looked for it, I tried, I thought I was trying, I really wasn't. But then I found it in these relationships.

So for those listening as we wrap this show, this is the Brave Wisdom Podcast and I really believe courage brings radical focus and on this topic it was focused on relationships. I think the courage now you need to take from this show and the things you heard Calvin say is to take some of this wisdom and truth and start putting into focus your relationships that you value most.

And I say the truth as this show and you did it so wonderfully today, Pastor Calvin and brother, wisdom cuts through the lies. And that's the truth. So send them home with some wisdom, some last nuggets of truth that will cut through any lie that maybe they might be experiencing.

Calvin Copeland: The scripture that jumps into my head is let the word of God be the truth and every man be a liar. I'll finish with one last story from the man who said you've only talked to me for a couple hours. The next session we had had with the couple, he said, "Man, my wife and I having a discussion and in the middle of the discussion I said, 'Baby, I think you've tapped into a wounded place.'"

And what was so encouraging about it is that he had gotten the why and he didn't he wasn't trying to be Superman. He could and then he said this: "I don't fully know what that wounded place is, but I know you hit a spot." So it tells me that he's understanding, okay, now I know how to do the work. Now I know how to win at this game. There are no perfect games. Don't but understand what a perfect game looks like so that you can identify what part of your game you got to work on.

The best teams aren't always perfect, but they know how to compliment and cover each other's weaknesses and exaggerate each other's strengths. While we serve a perfect God, he is always there to help us in our imperfection.

Bret: And I'll summarize and end this way. Ladies and gentlemen, it's game time. Take the courage, take the time. Game time, baby. Enjoy the rest of your day. Share this podcast. If you want more information about Pastor Cal Cope, it's simply PastorCalCope.com. Good website to connect with him, his podcast, and he's pretty active on YouTube and you'll find him if you search for him and he's someone worth searching for and connecting with. So please, connect with him. He's got a book coming out someday soon. Full of vision. This isn't the last time you've heard of Pastor Cal Cope on the Brave Wisdom Podcast because I have a feeling he'll be on some panels and we'll have him back as a regular guest. So until next time, Brave Wisdom Podcast where courage fuels radical focus and wisdom cuts through the lies. See you next time. Amen.