Bethel Deliverance International Church

Tim Baldwin: The purpose of the church is universal from its inception, and it is to bring glory to God, to preach the gospel, and to make disciples. I think that is it. It is that cut and dry.

Brian Weatherspoon: I did not call it a four-letter word. I am just saying it has become a scapegoat for people to only come to a place just for community but not for spiritual development.

Bishop Eric A. Lambert, Jr.: Well, praise the Lord, everyone, and welcome to the Shifting Times podcast. I’m Pastor Eric Lambert of Bethel Deliverance International Church. For those of you who have joined us in the past, we welcome you back. We thank God that you have decided to sit with us again for these few moments to discuss relevant issues that will affect you as you walk with the Lord Jesus Christ.

If this is your first time, welcome. We have a special gift for you, and that is an intimate knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Isn’t that great? By the end of this podcast, you will have learned a little bit more about the heart of God.

Now, we call it Shifting Times because, according to Solomon's writings in Ecclesiastes chapter 3, everything has a season and a purpose. And so we dedicate the Shifting Times podcast to the understanding that we're living in times that are shifting, that situations that you once had comfort in are gone, that you must now learn to adopt change and adapt to the changing times.

Well, today we're going to discuss some issues pertaining to the church, and joining me today, these guys are not strangers. They've been with us before, and we thank God for them. So I'd like to introduce to you Pastor Brian Weatherspoon of Tabernacle Harvest Church and Pastor Tim Baldwin of Bethel Deliverance Northeast.

Today we're going to discuss some issues that many of you have been asking me about in our conversations. You've been writing to me in email, and here's the basic premise, gentlemen: Some folks are saying what went wrong with the church. Over the last generation—generations are 18 to 25 years, I wonder why we can never get a definitive amount of time—but we'll just go with the accepted term.

But in the last generation, it seems like we've lost power, prestige, anointing, holiness, and an ability to separate from the world. Everything has a purpose and everything has a cause. We're going to deal with the cause first. In your opinion—and you both have some significant time in pastoring and in your church experience—what do you see as some reasons why the church is in such a deplorable position?

Tim Baldwin: Good question. I think one of the reasons is that we've turned the church into a business more than the business of God. It's become lucrative. It's become a cash cow for some people. It's become an opportunity to gain fame, notoriety, and finances. And so I think we've taken our eyes off the Lord and the real purpose of the church. For me, that's one of the things that has caused us to arrive at this place where we are now.

Brian Weatherspoon: I'm going to say the blending. We've kind of become enmeshed with the culture. So instead of us being separate, like I remember the church used to really pinpoint. When I got saved, it was about being separate. It was about coming out of the world and really kind of distancing yourself from worldliness.

Well, now it seems like over the last maybe 30 years, we've watched a lot of the church blend right in with the world. So secularization, between our music, even some parts of our dress, even how we engage one another, is very secular, more than it is what I would call the holy or the separated kind of life. So I think we just got enmeshed with the culture a lot.

Bishop Eric A. Lambert, Jr.: So when you look at the cultural acceptance, and you, Pastor Tim, talked about the commercialization of the church and bringing those two together, would you say that we do not have a clear understanding of our purpose in the world? And if so, would you help our audience by giving your impression and opinion on what is the purpose of the church, particularly in the 21st century?

Tim Baldwin: I think the purpose of the church is universal from its inception, and it's to bring glory to God, to preach the gospel, to make disciples. I think that's it's that cut and dry for me. When the Lord left here, when Jesus left here, his mandate was to go make disciples. He comes and he brings a picture of heaven to earth, the glory of the kingdom to earth, and then he leaves us here to implement that.

He leaves us here to bring glory to God, to highlight the kingdom of God, and to make disciples. And I think, again, we've lost our way when it comes to that. We do everything else but that. We entertain, we enmesh ourselves... Pastor Brian is right, we've enmeshed ourselves into the culture. The church is so inculturated that we've lost sight of what our real purpose is.

Brian Weatherspoon: I think it's a definite loss of identity. I think the total mission at this point is preparing for the Lord's return and getting the church right, if you will. And we know Jesus is the one that does the pulling and let the wheat and the tares grow together, so we know it's not really up to us to do the pulling, although there's some areas I wish I could pull myself, but Jesus said let it all grow together, I'll do the pulling.

But I think the job of the church and pastoring at this point is preparing the way of the Lord's return. Now, I know we don't know the day nor the hour, but we can surely look around and tell the signs are leading someplace. I don't think the Bible's wrong, and we have to prepare people's hearts for the Lord's return again. So I think that's the one.

Bishop Eric A. Lambert, Jr.: When you talk about purpose, I think many people today are really hard-pressed to come up with a clear definition and a clear understanding of purpose. I think that's what's causing us to slip into more of the worldly things. We don't really see a biblical purpose. When you say make disciples, in a lot of areas, that's not clear.

What does that mean? Some people interpret that as soul-winning. Soul-winning doesn't make disciples. Then Paul doesn't help us much when he goes over to Ephesians 4. He says those ministerial gifts are to equip the saints. So that equipping, what does that equipping look like as it relates to establishing purpose? How do we equip for purpose if we're uncertain about purpose?

Tim Baldwin: Whenever you talk about purpose, Bishop, purpose in my mind is what you've been created to do or what something has been created to do. A car, its purpose is to get you from here to there. And so for us as the church, again our purpose is, when we say make disciples, let's be specific about making disciples.

And when we look at Ephesians 4, he gave some to be, he gave all of the gifts there, the fivefold—some say four—for us as pastor-teacher. And so for us, our responsibility as pastor-teacher is to equip. The scripture says to equip the saints for the work of ministry. And then it goes on, the rest of that text, it talks about for the edification of the body. All of those giftings there are for the edification of the body, and we are to prepare the body to do the work of ministry.

And when we talk about discipleship, it's really us teaching others to be conformed to the image of Christ. I think that's it in a nutshell. And again, we do so many things... Like you said, what is it really? The goal for every believer after salvation, after saving faith takes place in my life, my responsibility is to be conformed to the image of Christ. And that's what discipleship is.

It happens in different arenas and different ways: church services, fellowship, community, small groups. It happens in so many ways. Again, discipleship is not just one thing. It's many things, but we do know that if we look at it from a biblical perspective, when Christ discipled the 12, he did it in community. He did it in groups.

When you look at Jesus's ministry, the Bible tells us that there were hundreds of disciples. Jesus didn't just have 12. He had hundreds of disciples. Hundreds of people followed him, but he had the 12 that he really personally poured himself into. And then he had the three where he poured himself into just a little bit differently.

And so we see that model of discipleship where people learn in community and they learn together. And what were the 12 doing? They were becoming conformed to the image of Christ. That's what they were doing. And so our responsibility as believers is to become disciples and to become disciple-makers, and that medium will be different in some arenas. It looks different. It's not cookie-cutter, but I think we should have a pathway and a philosophy for discipleship.

Brian Weatherspoon: After your church grows beyond 30 people, discipleship is tough. Up to 30 is manageable.

Tim Baldwin: I'm going to push back. I can't wait until he's done. You're in trouble now.

Brian Weatherspoon: After about 30, you set up mechanisms. I think there's mechanisms that we can put in place as pastors. I do believe it's our responsibility to create opportunities for people to develop gifts. But is it that I have to necessarily walk alongside every person or be at every person's disposal in order for them to get that way?

I think not. I think the Lord has others in the body of Christ, especially in our churches locally, to help assist in discipling other people, so that it's not all on one person to try to do it. However, I can sit down as a think tank and think about other groups in my church. Are people evangelizing? Are people getting their teaching gifts? Are there methods for them to learn how to teach?

Are there methods to learn how to evangelize better? Whatever the gifts are, I think there's a component of discipleship that has a level of being organic. I don't think all of it's mechanical. So some of it's organic. Some people are going to just naturally migrate to certain people or migrate to certain groups. Some people like this group of people better than those, and there's a leader out of that group that emerges. So although we can put the mechanisms in place, I still like to see how God organically brings a level of discipleship in the life of people.

Bishop Eric A. Lambert, Jr.: So in our culture, it's not working?

Brian Weatherspoon: Not really.

Bishop Eric A. Lambert, Jr.: But it's working some.

Brian Weatherspoon: I wouldn't say it's not. You discipled us. I think we discipled other people in the local church.

Bishop Eric A. Lambert, Jr.: But each level is disconnected. When you say I discipled you, we spent time together. We went places together. We dedicated a day a week where we sat together and shared and talked. By the end of a cycle, you knew me intimately. Then you and those in that group went out to make them, but you didn't do it that way. They were one step removed.

So it keeps going proportionally. It keeps going, which is what happened to Jesus. He had the 12, he split off, brought the three to intimacy, brought in 70, and they were so insignificant, we don't even know their names. When you say who are the disciples of Jesus, they give you the ones that we know, but the others, they were there.

Then you have to ask yourself: Well, who discipled them? The safe guess would be the 12 at some point were involved in their evolution. If that model is successful, if it were successful, why isn't it modeled today?

Tim Baldwin: Well, I think it is successful. I think it's successful for those who are doing it. I think here is where we sometimes miss it because we sometimes in our church context believe that the leader should have to do everything. And I think that's where we miss it a bit because, again, when you look at the 12 and then you look at the three... Let's look at Acts.

When we go to the book of Acts, the church exploded. There weren't pastors over every group of people, so there had to be people, as Pastor Brian said, I'm sure some people emerged as leaders within a house church context. But Acts 2:42: They devoted themselves to the teaching of the apostles. We don't do that in small groups because Pastor Brian says what I agree in part, there does have to be an organic nature, but there also has to be something that we're created...

Because we can say this: Why do we need church? Let's just see how God grows people organically. That wouldn't work. There has to be an apparatus or there has to be a system, and systems aren't bad. So just because there is a system for discipleship does not mean that organic and organic nature does not happen. And so, again, when we go back to Acts 2:42 to 45, devoted to the teachings of the apostles, they had all things in common, they gave all of their belongings, all of that stuff. That stuff happened in community.

And I think that discipleship has to happen in community, in an environment where we can create an environment for it to happen so that people have structure, and within that structure, organic things happen. We see it in our churches all the time.

Bishop Eric A. Lambert, Jr.: You're looking at Acts 2 and all those other places at the nexus of the church.

Tim Baldwin: But isn't that our model, though? What else do we have?

Bishop Eric A. Lambert, Jr.: It's our model. I'll give you that. But as you see how it moves on, these guys, the ones who were responsible for implementing the heart of God, they walked with Jesus. Even the text that says they took notice and saw they had been with Jesus. Now, there was no room for a lot of individual thinking and doing because these guys were saying: Hey, this is so new to us, we're just going to do it the way he did it.

But now, enter in as we move forward, when we get to the third century and beyond, we're moving away from Christ and getting to religion. And religion brings its own dogma. And I fear that the dogma of religion has pushed out the doctrine of Christ. Hence we have all of the denominations and the contrary explanations of passages that used to be simple.

Now we have a group of people called cessationists, and God doesn't do any of that anymore. I struggle with that simply because it's hypocritical. How are you going to call God all-powerful and sovereign and then tell him what he can't do because of a misunderstanding of a scripture? So now here we look like spiritual idiots to the world. We don't seem to have the power to change the culture or to force the politicians to respect our God. We've really lost something in that connection to the world.

Brian Weatherspoon: We don't know who we are. We're fragmented. We're fighting one another. We can't get it together as far as doctrinally. What's the one thing all the church stands on? And I think we'd be hard-pressed to even figure out what that is. Of course we say Christ, but then you have the academics who want to break apart what does that fully mean.

We never come to a concrete understanding as to what do we actually believe and what do we stand on as the body of Christ at large that can't be fragmented, that can't be negotiated away, and it cannot be secularized away. This is who we are. This is what we stand on. You don't find that in the church anymore. You don't find a concreteness that I think we had years ago, decades ago.

We still have churches. We still build churches all the time. But church has taken on a different nuance than what it was as far as just being a place where you housed and learned how to walk holy. It's a different place now. It's more clubbish. It's more just be community, and that's the key word everybody's used, community, community, community.

Tim Baldwin: How about church is a place of faith? It's a place where you lay the burdens down, you learn how to walk in this life. But it's not that anymore. It's something... something in the ingredients has changed.

Brian Weatherspoon: Pastor Tim uses certain words like they're weapons. Pastor Tim says community like community... because it's so... go ahead, finish your thought, Pastor.

Tim Baldwin: Because here's the thing, Pastor Brian, because you say it's a place of faith. I agree 100 percent. It's a place of faith that we do in community, that we cannot divorce ourselves from that. We can't divorce ourselves, and community is not a bad word.

Brian Weatherspoon: I didn't call it a four-letter word. I'm just saying it's become a scapegoat for people to only come to a place just for community, but not for spiritual development.

Tim Baldwin: But I think it's all... it should be the whole ball of wax. Because here's what I think: I think real community keeps the back door of our churches closed. Because relatively, especially Bishop's church, we have large churches. Our churches are large, and we don't know what's happening all of the time in our churches.

There are times when people leave our churches because of the size of our churches that we don't know. It is very true. And so community helps to keep the back door closed, whereas if a brother or sister doesn't see their brother in community, not in church, they reach out now. And it's not you or I having the responsibility to know who's there every Sunday. Sometimes I'm in church and you're there and I don't know you're there.

Bishop Eric A. Lambert, Jr.: But are you saying that there are some who come for the community but not the demonstration of faith?

Tim Baldwin: 100 percent, yeah.

Bishop Eric A. Lambert, Jr.: And you're linking it as part of that search for faith. And I think both of you, you're both right. There are people who come in just for that.

Tim Baldwin: Pastor Brian's not right, Bishop.

Bishop Eric A. Lambert, Jr.: He's right. He's right. But I think even Pastor Tim's example about the church in Acts... I'm sure there were some people in there who were just fascinated by the new move. They saw the charitable giving. They saw: Hey, these people really want to help. I'll get in there and get stuff.

So there are people who come for that purpose. And if our purpose is that community thing, it can be detrimental. But for a Christian, you're right, there needs to be the community. Look at the church at Corinth. They met every day. Every day. Their hunger for this new thing called Christianity and Christ caused them to meet every day. I mean, their culture was as bad as ours.

And yet they met every day. We dare not even suggest that to our people today. Not even three days a week. We dare not suggest that. Once a week is all I'm giving to God. Two is a stretch.

Brian Weatherspoon: Unless you got some real miracles or something happening that's bona fide that you can see, then they'll do it then. But other than that, just how we've been doing.

Bishop Eric A. Lambert, Jr.: You're really not going to get the community that you talk about on Sunday. So there has to be a willingness to divorce oneself from their normal pattern of life for the purpose of connection. Paul gives very specific things for the behavior governing our behavior and responses.

Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. And especially in Corinthian, when you come together, somebody has a word, somebody has a song. He seems to employ a more connective community type of worship. Everyone has something to contribute. But in our culture, us Hamites, it's the pastor who must do everything.

I'm there because of the pastor. And that wasn't how it was in the first century. I'm there because of the people. I'm there because you strengthen me. You drive me home, and in that driving home, we get to know each other.

Brian Weatherspoon: But first century, they were already community. That was part of their life. So again, that's why we can't divorce ourselves from that. No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying there was an organic nature to why they were able to do what they did. We don't have the same thing. We have to make it. They didn't have to make it.

We have to be, if we're going to do it, have to be very intentional. But they already lived amongst each other that way. They already shared a lot of things already. We don't live like that. And the truth is, the people that come to our churches don't necessarily live in that context until they may come into a church environment, and then you learn the community.

Tim Baldwin: But I think that culture can be created.

Brian Weatherspoon: Now? In the church?

Tim Baldwin: 100 percent. Here's why: because that culture is the culture of the church that I pastor. That is the culture of the church that I pastor. That it is a large church but very community-oriented within the context of our church. And it's that way because the culture that has been created... a culture that has been created from day one.

Created or happened? Both. Both. Created from the perspective of: Here is our responsibility as believers to be community to one another. And then out of that comes the organic nature of people coming together and people doing things together and people doing life together and creating an environment, again, for that to happen.

We have to be careful of saying that it can't happen. Because, again, if our model is scripture, how do we divorce ourselves from the model of scripture? Because that's all we have. If we as leaders say that well, the culture doesn't live that way or our culture doesn't do that, our culture is not the dominant culture. The scriptures are.

The culture of the scriptures takes precedence. And so regardless of what our culture is, our culture has to be fit to the scriptures and not vice-versa.

Brian Weatherspoon: So we're saying the same thing, just in different skin. We're saying that every church will instinctively develop its own community. They don't need the pastor to do it. The pastor has something to do with maybe fostering maybe an open environment, a loving atmosphere, or a cheerful atmosphere.

So the leader has something to do with how that may develop, but people gathering instinctively will have its own nature of a community. You don't have to do much for that. So we were here at Bethel. We made our own community at Bethel. Bishop didn't have to get up and say: Hey, this is community.

It was a church. We understood it. We loved one another. We came, you made friendships, you made partnerships, and those things organically happen. But we didn't need to be... and I guess what I'm debunking is: We always need a buzzword. We always need a new trend. Let it be what it is.

Tim Baldwin: I don't think it's that. Pastor Brian, do you have systems in place for your services at church that go a certain way? And that they're scripted in a certain way? And they are in place to make things work better for the church environment? Why don't you do away with them?

Brian Weatherspoon: Because you need them.

Tim Baldwin: Same thing. It's the same exact thing when you look at scripture. When you look at scripture and you look at discipleship.

Brian Weatherspoon: I think you think I'm having an issue with making mechanisms for people to be discipled. I don't. That's not my argument. My argument is: Are we mechanically trying to always make a community for this? Or are we allowing in the system of our churches—we all have it—in the system of our churches and even the other mechanisms, is there an organic nature where it just happens?

I don't have to get up and always say: Hey, we're community, hey, we're community. Are we instinctively the body of Christ? This is a community because we get together regularly. It's happening already. What about the people that it doesn't happen for? The people who community doesn't happen for, people who may need a structured environment?

I don't understand what you're saying. You're saying that it should just be organic. I'm saying certain parts of it is organic. I'm not saying do away with mechanism. I'm saying overall, I think the organic nature of community develops when people gather. If I get on the corner and I gather with some fellows, that's a community.

We already got it established. What we do in that community you ain't got to know nothing about, but get us together long enough, things happen organically and nobody had to tell us what to do. It's in people gathering.

Tim Baldwin: But I think, Pastor Brian, I think you're almost afraid to say that having a mechanism in place to help people be conformed to the image of Christ is stretching you because you keep going back to: Why do we have to do that? Why can't we just be? Because it's the church.

Brian Weatherspoon: Buzzwords! We're always linked to buzzwords and we get... you mark my words, and in two years, it'll be another term. It'll be another thing, and then we always jump on the trend of the new thing.

Bishop Eric A. Lambert, Jr.: Well, here's my issue. In these times in which we live, is the creation of—I don't even know how you want to say it—systems and operations or whatever you guys are bantering about, is it evangelistic or is it in-house? Because you take a person who's a pragmatist who's searching for Christ, and they come in and they find a system.

And the system may be great for believers, but does the system allow them to find their way to Christ, or must they find Christ before they come in where the systems are? And that's where I think the church is missing. The making of disciples is like saying I can take a premarital class all I want to, but it doesn't mean anything until I get married.

So I come into the church, I don't know Christ. I wander in because I'm being drawn by the Holy Spirit, and I find a system. And that system might be great for the body, but is it evangelistic? Is it Christ-drawing? And I think that in our culture, in our world, the church needs to be more Christ-drawing. It seems—and this is just an observation—it seems that we're spending a tremendous amount of time reaching the reached, healing the healed, blessing the blessed.

When we now have to go back to the initial question: our purpose. Now, when you say make disciples, then in order to be a disciple, does that mean that the person's born again? Yes, that's what discipleship is for. Okay. So if the person is born again, Jesus was saying... it seems to be convoluted.

On the one hand, he says go into all the world and preach the gospel and anybody that believes shall be saved. Then on the other hand, he tells them to go and make disciples. So which one has prominence? I think it's an and-both. I don't think it's an either-or. So where should we spend the most of our time?

Well, because we are in a church context, we should spend our time, as pastors, we're shepherds. Then we have the evangelists who go out and reach the lost, and it doesn't necessarily mean that they'll come to our church, but we can help them find a place to worship, and then the discipleship process starts. So discipleship is absolutely for the church.

It's for believers. But what will they find? We go out and we witness to people and tell them about the goodness of the Lord, the drawing of the Holy Spirit. What are they going to find? Will they find the Acts 1 through 10 church, or will they find one so steeped in programs that we miss the intimacy of drawing them to Christ?

Tim Baldwin: Well, I think you'll see some of all of that, and because there's no perfect context in church that we live in, and so I think you'll see all of those things: programs, discipleship.

Bishop Eric A. Lambert, Jr.: But the perfection comes with really knowing purpose. I don't think we know it. I think that's why we vacillate and go back and forth between so many things because... When I was in the military, we had a commandant of the Marine Corps, and he issues orders.

And no matter what battalion you're in, regiment, company, squad, whatever, those orders are the ones. There's no room for interpretation. Now, they might look for other ways to apply it, but it's like: This is what the commandant says, this is what we're going to do. All across the board, yes.

But when it comes to the church, it's left up to individual whimsical expression. It's like: Okay, God said this, but he didn't mean that. For example, the keeping of the Sabbath. The Lord didn't just throw it out there. He put it in those 10 life-affirming commands he gave to Moses for a reason, and we just dismiss it.

Tim Baldwin: And he fulfills it with his son.

Bishop Eric A. Lambert, Jr.: Well, no, no, because that would be unfair if we say he fulfills it with his son, then did he fulfill honor thy mother and father with his son? I think there is... we do God a disservice. Brother Todd Mangum was on our show one time, and he's really good with Bible, and he made this statement that I thought was really nice.

He said something you don't understand, he said just do what the Bible says. He said just do what it says. He said because you can spend a lot of time trying to interpret it, trying to find the meaning, he said but just do it. If you're confused about it. And that made sense. And so here the world looks at us.

Now, if you're in the Corps, the Corps says when you're in uniform, you can't have anything bulging in your pocket. That's why Marines put their cigarettes in their socks. I never smoked, but the guys put them in their socks. Your hair has to be cut a certain length. If you're smoking, you can't have a cigarette in your hand and salute.

You've got to take the cigarette out of your mouth, put it in your left hand because you salute with your right. Nobody breaks that. Marines don't carry umbrellas. If it's raining, you've got to cover on your head or a raincoat, but no Marines don't carry umbrellas. That's the rule. No one goes around and says: Well, he ain't mean that because it's really raining outside, I'm carrying my umbrella.

They dare not. They dare not! But yet in church, there always seems to be a difference of doctrinal explanation. And I fear that there are times when in the creation of our groups, people are given opportunity to take what's said from the commander and just dissect it and say: Oh, well, this is what it means.

And the end result is the world looks at us and says: They don't know what they're talking about. When you think of it, the Bible says the people looked at the behavior of these guys and said: Look at those Christians in Antioch. Now, it was meant to be derogatory, but in my world, it was complimentary because they didn't say look at them church people, look at those... they said look at them Christians, they're acting just like Jesus.

We don't hear that today. Christianity today is a basic definition of people who profess Christ and go to church regularly. But the character of Christ, it's been lost. I'm not a defeatist. I don't like losing anything. That's why I always reprogram the chess game so I can win. But I mean, let's look at it and say something's wrong. Something is wrong.

And it can't be as simple as adding another support group. Why are young people turning away from it? Are we not relevant? Why is church attendance in the Black church declining? Are we no longer relevant?

Brian Weatherspoon: I think it goes back to my point earlier. We're so fragmented. Young people now, they want to know: Tell me the truth and also do me a favor, show it to me. And show me where that's real. And if the church isn't willing to go out on the limb and show the realness of the things we preach, then yeah, a lot of those young people are like: Well, I'm good off of that because I don't even know if it's working for you.

So yeah, a lot of them are leaving for that reason. But I'm also seeing a lot of them come back because they're out there and they're understanding that: Listen, maybe we don't have all the other pieces or every small answer you need, but we do know we have Christ and there is some definitive change with some people that you're also seeing in this church.

So in other young people. So one is lending itself to the other. My point is: there's enough changing that is kind of drawing the other ones to say: All right, well, maybe there's realness because I see he changed you. You don't do that anymore. All right, well, maybe I'll come back because maybe if it's changing you, it'll change me.

So the organic nature of people being around people and the Spirit of the Lord moving amongst people. I think about it when we were coming up. It was a group of us. We're now older now, but we were the young adult population in the church. But what caught fire was you could come in this church and you could see others on fire.

You could see young brothers up there high-fiving—I don't know who they were, but they were high-fiving and cheering and being free in the Spirit and yet walking it out. And it made other young people come in and go: Man, I think I can hang out in there like one lit fire to the other.

Bishop Eric A. Lambert, Jr.: And it happened in your time. But it wasn't happening much when you stepped into that role.

Tim Baldwin: Not as much. Bishop, I think we both had a great experience, though, here in terms of... but the evolution of the church has been downward. Because even Paul says... Paul says in the last days there'll be a falling away. And so we would have to look at what went on in his day. If the falling away is biblical, there's a falling away in your day, very slow, almost ignorable, but still definitely happening.

And I'll piggyback on what Pastor Brian said, that there's something happening in that generation where they're returning. They're returning. We see it in our churches. I do see the reports, I read the Pew reports and the Barna Group reports that people are leaving the church.

And I know it to be true, but I think, again, as Pastor Brian said, they're looking for truth and relevance, good modeling of what this looks like. Gone are the days where we could say: Well, the Holy Spirit said and just do it because I'm the leader. That's gone. What you just said is eye-opening and very, very painful.

And let me explain why, though. Let me explain why. Because this generation and the generation before, the last two generations, have so much access to information. Ambiguity doesn't work anymore, especially spiritual ambiguity just doesn't work anymore. They want to know why. Tell me what this text really says.

Bishop Eric A. Lambert, Jr.: And there are trade-offs for everything in our life. During the days of the baby boomers, churches exploded because we didn't have all that access, but we had faith and we believed our leaders. The church that I grew up in, my pastor had over 10,000 members back then when the megachurch wasn't even a term.

And when I served as youth pastor, 47 percent of that membership was under 40. And this wasn't a man who was theologically trained. This wasn't a man who even understood hermeneutics and all those other things, but he moved in the power of God. And so people came for the manifestation of the power of God.

When Paul goes to Corinth, he says I'm not coming to you with theological excellence, I'm coming to you in the demonstration of the power of God. So we've traded. We've traded theological relevance for power. Absolutely. So now out of that has come a whole group of people who say: Well, God doesn't do that anymore.

And the people have accepted it. Whereas I'm of the mindset, as you can't call him sovereign and omnipotent then tell him what he can do. I don't believe that. And so here the world looks at us and they don't see those things. The ignorance of a William Seymour. The ignorance of the man who couldn't even read well, but yet moved in upper levels of power.

You see what I'm saying? The power of God working through a Smith Wigglesworth and people who moved in dynamic times of healing and deliverance when the world wasn't as bad as it is now. Now they need that outpouring of anointing, and God doesn't have anybody there. Hence we have Ezekiel 22: Everybody's wrong, priest, politicians, people, everybody.

He said but I don't have anybody to stand in the gap. Part of our purpose is to stand in the gap. So our listeners are hearing this and they're probably sitting there saying: How do I stand in the gap? Gentlemen, help us. How do I stand in the gap? I'm a believer. I'm listening to you. I'm convinced that there needs to be a change.

Ezekiel says God doesn't have a gap-stander. In fact, in one of the Old Testament books, I think it's 2 Samuel or one of them, he says the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the earth looking for someone he can show off. How do I become that in 2025, going into '26?

Tim Baldwin: Gap-standers, when Ezekiel writes that and everybody's corrupt, the whole entire system is corrupt: church, priests, people, politicians, everybody's corrupt. Prophets, yeah, everybody's corrupt. And what God is really saying, in terms of individual standing in the gap, what he's really saying is: I need someone to call out unrighteousness, to call out sin, to stand for justice and mercy.

And those are the individuals who are gap-standers. That's what a gap-stander is. That's what God was looking for: someone to stand up for everything else that everybody turned a blind eye to that represents who he is. Again, that justice, that mercy. The priests were in bed with the politicians. We see that now.

The prophets were giving prophecies for their own gain. We see that now. The pastors were... you see all of these things that are happening then that's happening now, and God's saying: I'm looking for someone who can stand up for what is right and to verbalize and to cry loud and spare not on behalf of the kingdom.

Bishop Eric A. Lambert, Jr.: But that'll get into your money. That's the problem. I mean, you're not going to get up and cry loud if it's going to cut into your honorarium.

Brian Weatherspoon: Yeah, you're going to get touched, there's no doubt about it. But I think what I hear you saying also is: God's calling for courage. Where's the boldness again? We're not preaching with courage. And I don't care what anybody says about systems and other things. Young people especially are drawn to courage.

You step out on the limb as a leader, they want that. They want that. Why? Because that's what the Hebrew Israelite boys are doing. They're coming out right on the corner and they got thousands following. Why? It represents courage. It represents some boldness.

And so in our churches, if we're not willing to be bold and courageous about addressing the issues that are obviously there, stepping out on the limb and confronting demonic strongholds and those things, well then we may be a nice church. We also may be the church that don't have enough courage to make a young man say: You know what, I'm going in there because I like what I hear and I feel that, I feel that.

I'm going back to my own reference again. It's what made me stay at Bethel for years. My pastor represented courage when that man preached. He's talking about stuff, it made you blush, but you're like: Man, I can roll with him because he ain't afraid. He don't sound scared when he's talking.

Jesus, if we ever really did a real unmapping of who he was and how he operated, the church may get a whole 'nother... he wasn't soft. No, he just... he was an expert. Jesus is my hero. He really is because the man could minister grace but also tell you you're wrong. And it's funny because his message was extremely redemptive, but it was also cleansing.

The woman taken in adultery. He's: All right, you guys can't stone her because none of you are perfect. Then he turns to her and says: Now don't do it anymore. I mean, it's really neat. He puts them down: I'm not justifying her behavior, but you guys can't condemn her because those of you that are without sin, you do it.

Then he turns to her. She's probably there weeping, oh my goodness, oh I thank you for... he's: All right, now don't you go back to that lifestyle. So there's the courage in confronting. John the Baptist: courage. Elijah: courage. Elisha: courage.

But yet when we get to the 21st century, because it touches the wallet: Oh, I better not say certain things because I really got to raise this money for my building fund, for this, that, and the other. And so people are looking at that. I don't care what anybody says. I do care what the world thinks about the church. I care what they think about me.

And so I am intentional about living holy. I'm intentional because I don't want anybody to be able to say anything negative about my father. I was that way with my natural mother and father. I just want to be a good son, and I want people when they say: Who's your father? and I say: Oh, Eric Lambert, Sr. Oh, okay. They can see him and say: You know, your son is such-and-such.

We need to have the courage to live for God even if I'm not preaching. I still have the courage to say no to the culture. John said all that's in the world is the pride of life, lust of the eye, and lust of the flesh. And Paul says to the Christians at Rome, he says listen, you've got to deny that stuff. You have to tell yourself no.

And he's the only one who starts that metaphor: Put on the Lord Jesus Christ. Paul loved using that. And he goes to Galatia and he says to them I marvel that you turned back to this. And so we're sitting here today coming to the end of 2025, and yet there's been no revival all year.

We've had spurts, but no systemic move of God because I fear—and I know this is where Pastor Tim... I'm not even going to look over there at him because he said: No, the body of Christ is doing good. But I fear that we've reached that point of no return. I think we're close to almost Romans chapter 1.

God gave them up to their own lust, gave them up to their own desires, and let them have that reprobate mind. Not an apostate mind. Not sending them to the lake of fire. But saying: You know what, if you really think you're right and I'm telling you that you're wrong, I'm going to let you go down that road.

And I think that's where we are because every week you see some new phenomenon coming up in the church. Somebody else is being ordained to something and we got another great person. And then on the heels of that, we got somebody else bleeding you for money. And then on the heels of that, somebody else is immoral and somebody... and it's like the positives are canceled out by the negatives, and the world looks at us and says: Look at them.

Brian Weatherspoon: It's coonery-buffoonery! Whatever that Spikel-lee-ish term is. Spike Lee said they're just cooning. Because there are no real heavy checks and balances with who enters the ministry, with who builds a church, with the dynamics and how you got there. No one checks the pedigree, and that's a problem.

It answers some of the questions as to why is there so much fragmentation. Half of these guys are coming up, some of them aren't even real believers. They're just... it's a position. They have charisma and the charisma takes you another level. But when you unpack them, you're not really going to get holiness.

So if the leader's not really holy, what's being presented to the congregation is something that's just a placate kind of situation. We've got to get back to those checks and balances. Now to your point, Bishop, maybe we're too late for the checks and balances. Maybe Pandora's box is already open.

Tim Baldwin: We're not saying that to them. There's a remnant. There's a small door. There's a remnant! Come on!

Bishop Eric A. Lambert, Jr.: All right, let's look at this. We can agree that we've reached a critical mass. And we've taken enough ridicule that the world just doesn't see us as an issue. In the Bible times, kings were afraid of God's prophets. Now they just give them a position and now they're there.

Then if God says I can't find anybody to stand in the gap, he said but because I couldn't find anyone, I had to send judgment. I ask the question before and I always will: The things that are going on in the world, is it because of what they're doing or because of what we're not doing?

Brian Weatherspoon: Because of what we're not doing.

Tim Baldwin: I think the church is culpable for some of it. But again, if we look at scripture, the scripture tells us this is going to happen. I agree. But not that it's going to happen as a result of the church, the lack of what the church is doing, but the result of the moral decline, the spirit of the Antichrist.

And so those things happen. That's why we're here. We're here to combat that and to shine a light in dark places and to shine the light of the gospel on a dark world.

Bishop Eric A. Lambert, Jr.: I'm going to give you something to consider in light of what he just said: that the church is culpable for some, but the rest you intimate that it's part of the prophetic process. Dealing with a sovereign God, dealing with an all-knowing God.

Because he saw that his representatives would not be doing what he suspected or wanted them to do, that these calamities would come as a result of that, could that be the basis for the prophetic word: that the people who were tasked to bring the light won't be bringing it, so here's the consequence? And the prophets speak to the consequence but not the cause.

Tim Baldwin: You can say a lot of things, Bishop, but again for me, because we're talking about the sovereignty of God, which means that he can do whatever he wants, however he wants to do it. And yes, the Lord knows and sees what's going to happen in the future, and the scriptures are clear about that.

And that's why Christ comes the first time and that's why he's going to come back a second time: to redeem that which was lost. And so the whole entire God story is about redemption from Genesis to Revelation: God on mission to redeem his people back to him. And so we see that happening in history, in biblical history, we see the up-and-down nature of Israel first and then the church.

And then God says: Okay, enough is enough, I'm sending my son back to come get all of you. I'm coming back to get what was mine. And so I think that's the sovereignty that God allows things to happen. When we talk about theodicy, why does God let bad things happen to good people?

God has given us the ability—and some people might not like this—but to choose. I don't like it. Yeah, he gives us the ability to choose, and to choose unrighteousness. And so, again, I think that because God knows and sees, Jesus was the answer.

Brian Weatherspoon: But I think we were supposed to be in the way. We were supposed to be the dam that holds the water from breaking. And the church is losing the strength of a dam. I'm a little more simplistic. Yours is more seminarian. I'm a little more street with that. I think we were just supposed to be the example.

I don't necessarily know how... I know Paul talks about that in 2 Thessalonians until he that moves is removed, then the Antichrist in full power can come. To that extent, yes. But I think what God did... when we were in boot camp, the drill instructor was perfect. He had creases that went from his collar all the way down to the top of his shoe, his trousers and everything.

You couldn't find a wrinkle on them. I didn't know in boot camp, I didn't know that they had these—we called them shirt suspenders—that would click to the bottom of your shirt, you pull it down and it would stick, you'd then click it to the top of your sock, and it kept your shirt down and they always looked pressed. They always looked neat.

Later on we found out that they were giving us an example of how we're supposed to look. They were saying: This is how a Marine looks. I think God left us here to show the world: This is how I want people to live. Free of worry, walking in love, community-driven, we care for one another, we weep with one another, we rejoice with one another.

Think how it would be if the concepts given to us were played out in the world. We wouldn't have war. We wouldn't have a homeless problem. The dynamic of the government caring for the homeless would be eradicated if the children of God said: Hey, let's get together and get this place and we're going to each of us is going to put 10 to 20 percent in and we're going to feed these people.

Bishop Eric A. Lambert, Jr.: Well, it's been great being with you guys again, and we hope that you've been blessed. I didn't want to stop. I just love these guys. They pull at me from every direction and they make me young. They make me feel so young. They make me feel like spring has sprung.

But I thank God for Pastor Brian Weatherspoon and Pastor Tim Baldwin being here today. It's so refreshing to get different perspectives from the word of God that will help you, our listener, to be able to search the scriptures and discover what God is truly saying to you and to me and to his church.

We hope that we've provoked you a little to begin to search your heart and find out what motivates you to serve God. Is it the things of the world? Do you want God to give you a new car, a new house? Do you want God to give you a person in your life that you can connect with? No, Jesus didn't die for me to get a new house.

He didn't die to get me a new car, and he certainly didn't die to give you a husband or wife. He died so that we can be connected to God, become adopted into the family of God, and then God will give you wisdom to make the necessary choices you need in your life.

Now you heard Pastor Tim talk about the power of choice. Yeah, I do go to God sometimes and say: Why don't you just tell us what to do and stop all this choice stuff? But he's so great. He wants to be loved. So we're going to ask you right now to make the choice to come to Jesus, to look at your options and make the choice to come to Jesus.

Now are we saying life is perfect when you become a Christian? No. Are we saying all of your troubles are going to go away if you come to Jesus? No. Jesus even said in the world you're going to have tribulation. He said but in me you'll have peace.

So as your life begins to shift from places of comfort over into places where you're questioning your very existence and you're wondering what is the plan of God, what is it that he wants from me, I will tell you this: All God wants from you is you. That's it. God just wants you.

We want a church that truly represents the Lord Jesus, a church that will walk upright before him and show the world that even though we are different, we trust in the Lord. We're not better than anyone. We're just different. We put our hope and our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and he being the object of our worship, the captain of our salvation, the author and finisher of our faith, the alpha and omega of our lives, is guaranteed to bring you to rest in God.

Thanks for being with us today. Take the time to walk with God, search the scriptures, understand what he wants for you in your life, and I guarantee you your life will be better. May God continue to bless you, to walk with you, to provide healing for your body, spiritual growth in your soul, and mental stability for your mind.

And these things will happen as you turn to the Lord Jesus Christ. Join us again on the next episode of Shifting Times and watch how God will bring you through every dilemma you face. God bless.