Save America Ministries

Chuck Crismier: What is a man? What is a man? What is masculinity? In First Corinthians chapter 16, verse 13, there's a famous statement that goes like this, "Quit ye like men." In other words, conduct yourselves like men. What does that mean? What does that mean? Is it something that's applicable both to men and women? And if that be true, why is it that it's set in the masculine gender? "Quit you like men." Or how about if we go to Ephesians and we hear about the armor of God, the whole armor of God? "Put ye on the whole armor of God." Who most normally puts on the whole armor except for Joan of Arc? Men.

Why? Because men do some things and are called to do certain things that women generally are not called to do. Why is that? Have you ever thought about that? Is it because men and women are created to do the same things because they're equal in that sense? Apparently not from God's viewpoint. And God's viewpoint is the only one that matters. So, when we talk about the matter of masculinity that is so demeaned and attacked in the last ever since the feminine revolution that began in the 1970s, men have been at the short end of the stick with regard to conducting themselves in a way that would please God.

The expectations have changed. In fact, if you were to go to Google or explore AI or any of the other ways that you might find interesting information concerning masculinity, what you will find is a blend of something moving away from traditional understanding of what it means to be a man, what it means to be masculine, and trying to somehow move that in a different direction toward something other than manhood.

Why is that? What is it that's going on? Does this have anything to do with the fact that perhaps we're in the end of the age approaching the return of Christ, and everything that can be shaken is being shaken, even the most fundamental aspects of creation? We're going to discuss all of that here today on Viewpoint, and I'm glad that you've joined us. This conversation is always with ever-increasing conviction talk that transforms. Today's discussion is not just for men; it's for women.

In fact, over the past 30 years as we have been conducting this radio program and I've spoken across the country, what I have discovered is that the majority of Christian women are disappointed in many respects because their men are not quitting themselves like men. They're not conducting spiritual leadership in the home. They're not fulfilling what seems to have been God's purpose for men, husbands, and fathers in the home. They're doing something else that supposedly is masculine but isn't fulfilling what our women believe they should be. How about what God thinks they should be? All of that here on the program today with Seth Trout, a pastor in Arizona where it's hotter than blazes. He says it's 110 and rising. Today on Viewpoint, he's going to talk to us about what he calls authentic masculinity, leaving behind the counterfeits for God's design. Seth, it's good to have you on the program.

Seth Trout: Thanks for having me. This is a real privilege.

Chuck Crismier: Indeed it is because this matter of masculinity is a big deal. Here we are on the threshold of Father's Day, and we say, well, if you're a man, you can be a father because you can be a sperm donor. Is that what creates a man? Is that what manhood is all about? Is that what masculinity is all about, or is there something else to it?

Seth Trout: It's an excellent question, and I understand why young men these days have angst about this question. I never really personally had it. I think some of that is because I had a remarkably good father, and I grew up grounded and rooted in a really solid biblical church. But when I talk to young guys these days in particular, there is a trepidation and a nervousness because of the discourse having descended into this just critiquing so-called toxic masculinity.

There's not really a clear vision ever painted for what would be untoxic or just positive masculinity. As soon as you try to talk about how men and women are different, people start whispering, and it gets nervous because of cancel culture. I'm just excited to tell people that what the Bible has to say about God's design for men is not only beautiful, but it's compelling and it's true.

Chuck Crismier: Indeed it is true. When we read passages like Joshua chapter one, verse eight, where it says, "Be strong and courageous, do not tremble," this is language that's communicated to the masculine mystique, isn't it?

Seth Trout: Absolutely. And that verse you quoted at the beginning, which said, act like men, the NIV actually translates that be courageous. The underlying word there could be translated courageous, but it's virility, energy, and manliness has everything to do with overcoming resistance, especially having to do with grit. In Genesis three, when God tells Adam by the sweat of your face you will bring forth food from the earth, that sweat is really about that capacity to experience resistance and to overcome it with creative pressure for the good of other people. So, courage and manliness, those things are very interchangeable in terms of how the Bible's language talks about manliness as being.

Chuck Crismier: Modern culture, especially driven by the feminism coming out of the 1970s, actually moved men toward becoming androgynous. So, sort of a mixed male-female kind of a thing, and everybody had to speak with a limp wrist and a lisp in order to be genuinely masculine, which was exactly the opposite of what I perceived the Bible talking about for men.

Seth Trout: That word androgynous is really a descriptive of the spirit of the age because you have andro, which is masculine, and gynos is feminine, like a gynecologist. This promotion of the interchangeability of the sexes, I think a lot of young men grew up hearing that message problematizing so-called masculinity. A lot of what you see happening now, especially with the young guys, is an overreaction against that toward this really far-right manosphere thing that promotes a hatred of women and a use and an objectification of women.

I could call it like Genghis Khan masculinity. You're supposed to try to have kids with as many women as possible. Marriage is a trap meant to domesticate men by women. So, they're overreacting to that third-wave feminism by promoting this kind of animalistic, barbaric vision of masculinity that's also contrary to the Scriptures.

Chuck Crismier: In the 1990s and early into the 2020 era, we had what was called the metrosexual movement in terms of dress, in terms of trying to help men not look so masculine.

Seth Trout: Yes, and there's a new wave of it now called looksmaxing. That's been the latest trend. Guys in their early twenties will have plastic surgeries on their face and they'll do testosterone supplementation in their early twenties because they're trying to look as attractive as possible. They're getting nose jobs, jaw injections, and the like. So, the metrosexual has evolved into this kind of body dysmorphic vision for even young men. We'll be back after the break, friends. What is authentic masculinity anyway?

Guest (Male): Once upon a time, children could pray and read their Bibles in school. Divorces were practically unknown, as was child abuse. In our once-great America, virginity and chastity were popular virtues, and homosexuality was an abomination. So, what happened in just one generation? Hi, I'm Chuck Crismier, and I urge you to join me daily on Viewpoint, where we discuss the most challenging issues touching our hearts and homes. Could America's moral slide relate to the fourth commandment? Listen to Viewpoint on this radio station or anytime at saveus.org.

Chuck Crismier: Should both men and women be brave? Should both men and women be able to stand firm? Should both men and women be able to, as the Scripture says, put on the whole armor of God? Well, the answer is both yes and no because the instruction is given in a manly way to men and by implication then to women our helpmates as wives. I don't know about you, Seth, but my wife, if I were to conduct myself in a feminine way, she would despise me, I think.

Seth Trout: Absolutely. I think the very first chapters of the Bible help us thread that needle a bit. In Genesis one, Adam and Eve together were to be fruitful and multiply, which obviously takes a man and a woman, and they together were to subdue and have dominion. That is to apply creative pressure under the authority of God.

But in Genesis two, Adam by himself is told to work and keep, which could also be translated serve and protect, the garden. He has that priestly protective role out the outset. What I think is helpful is to talk about how men and women have shared tasks but different emphases within those tasks. In Genesis three, when God applies the curse to Adam and Eve, the bulk of the curse that Eve absorbs has to do with the home.

Your husband may be domineering over you; in pain shall you bring forth children. That's fruitful and multiply homeward-oriented stuff. To the man, it's the curse on the subdue and dominion stuff. By the sweat of your brow, you'll bring forth the ground. I think that plays out in generally traditional gender roles. I don't think the goal should be to be traditional, but it should be biblical. Biblical ends up looking relatively traditional when you really understand Genesis 1, 2, and 3.

Chuck Crismier: Exactly. Today on Viewpoint, it seems to me that our goal is to try to take a look at God's viewpoint. We're not here to translate the culture's viewpoint. We understand the culture is trying every which way to demean, retranslate manhood into some sort of an androgynous kind of a thing that makes men and women equal in every respect.

No, we're equal in the care and nurturing of God as our father. But we have different roles and different responsibilities, as I see it. I think that's what you're trying to translate in your book, Authentic Masculinity. Friends, you might want to seriously consider getting a copy of this. It's a $17 book here for $15 on our website, saveus.org. Give us a call at 1-800-SAVEUSA or write to us at Save America Ministries.

Seth, I mentioned to you shortly before the program this word "authentic" has been a veritable buzzword in the Christian community now for at least 15 years. It's almost like every publisher had to include the word "authentic" in a title of a book. When I see that, it bothers me because I don't like buzzwords. The newest buzzword that's happening not only in the church but also throughout the entire culture is "resilient." Have you noticed that? Everybody has to be resilient; everything is resilient. It's just amazing these buzzwords. How in the world do we pick up these buzzwords? In the process, actually, if we're going to claim something as being authentic, maybe we're pleading the cause too much and missing the whole point.

Seth Trout: I appreciate and respect and like the fact that you are annoyed at those words to some degree. You got it right. But the idea of authenticity culture, which is kind of this self-expressiveness where people aren't having self-control, they're not able to have dominion over their emotions or their inner life, so it's just the true me is deep buried in there and I got to let it out. That's the whole thing that undergirds the Pride Month movement and things like that, this idea that there's this true me down there and society buried it and I got to fight to let it out of the closet.

Authenticity as a self-expressiveness blank check I do resent, and that's not what I'm getting at with the title Authentic Masculinity. What I'm trying to get at is if you're trying to figure out if a $100 bill is counterfeit, the best thing you do is study an authentic $100 bill, the real thing. That's most helpful in helping people discern where the counterfeits are and what their problems are.

I'm not trying to get men to be more self-expressive and more devoted to bringing about their deep inner self out in some kind of overly therapeutic way. But what I am trying to do is to expose all the various forms of counterfeits of which the evil culture invents on a regular basis and compare and contrast it with the authentic real picture we get in the Scriptures. Masculinity in the Scriptures is the authentic masculinity. Every other version is the counterfeit, and God's design is the real one.

The resilient thing, too, I probably am less annoyed with than the authenticity thing because everyone is so fragile because of the overly therapeutic culture that telling people you don't need to have a safe space everywhere you go, you can actually overcome your anxiety and fear by having courage. I do understand why that word has become a buzzword; it's because of the fragility of young people.

Chuck Crismier: Fragility, even using that word over and over as it's being used is telling us how very unmasculine and resentful of masculinity our culture has become. No doubt our words reveal an awful lot about what we think, don't they?

Seth Trout: Yes, they do. Our assumptions about what humans need to flourish and thrive, and the responsibility of cultures to accommodate various abnormalities or aberrations from the best fit and the best design that we see from God.

Chuck Crismier: On Tuesday, I did a program here. We've been on the air for 31 years, an hour a day live confronting the deepest issues of America's heart and home. On Tuesday, I focused on a book that I had written called Hearts of the Fathers, Leaving a Legacy that Lasts, obviously preparing the way for Father's Day. When we think about the hearts of fathers, in order to truly have the heart of a father, you have to have a genuinely masculine mind and heart, don't you?

Seth Trout: Absolutely. One of the things that I use, my kids are six and four and I've kind of created this little model that's helpful to me. It's a little pyramid, and it's Affection, Blessing, Correction—the ABCs. I want to love my children in a way that actually represents the way the Father in heaven loves me. At the same time, I want to bless them, which is investing into them both with words that inspire and encourage and help them develop skills and discipleship and strategies that make them highly successful functional people.

The C is correction or discipline. The Scripture says that a father who doesn't discipline his son hates him. I think with a lot of the parenting movement things we see nowadays, the gentle parenting where parents don't tell their kids no and they tolerate their tantrums and they are made to think that if they cause discomfort in their kids, even for good reason, their kids are going to grow up to need therapy and hate them and etc.

Chuck Crismier: So, it's the feminization of every aspect even of child-rearing. You cannot be a male from God's viewpoint and properly raise a child under this new gentle parenting.

Seth Trout: The most popular book that promotes that's called Good Inside, and it's all about how these little children are so good inside and you just need to find their good and let them express it. It's very unbiblical in terms of doctrine of original sin, but also just flies in the face of the goodness of discipline and correction and holding and setting boundaries with children as they age. So, the ABCs have been a helpful tool for me as I try to evaluate, do I faithfully represent the loving heart of the Father? Do I faithfully represent the investment and pouring into that the Father does? And do I faithfully represent the corrective disciplinary nature of my Father who teaches and corrects and challenges and rebukes and reproves?

Chuck Crismier: Very interesting. You change the language, gentle parenting, all it is is a reiteration of Spockism that came out called laissez-faire parenting came out in the 1950s and 60s. Just let a child do what he wants to do and eventually he'll grow up to be what he needs to be. Don't discipline, don't try to guide in that regard, no, just let them loose. It just doesn't work. It's contrary to the Scriptures, and we're reaping the whirlwind of that in our culture, aren't we?

Seth Trout: Yep, and that's a great illustration of how the counterfeits we've seen in seed form in Genesis chapter three just reinvent and reiterate from every generation to generation in new and fresh ways. That's why it's so important to have a worldview that's rooted in the doctrine of creation in Genesis one and two because it helps us see through the phonies that are potentially captivating the hearts and minds of the next generation all the time.

Chuck Crismier: You know, we're right here on the edge of our 250th anniversary of the political birth of our country. The head figure in all of that was a fellow by the name of George Washington, first in war, first in peace, first in the hearts of his countrymen. It's interesting that King George III, when he heard that George Washington was not going to claim presidential leadership after a second term, he said he must be the most humble of all men ever to be able to relinquish that kind of power. One of the things that you focus on in your book is humility, masculine humility. Apparently, George Washington manifested that even with strong masculine leadership. How could he lead the Continental Army without being a masculine leader?

Seth Trout: That's a great insight. I do think that the concept of humility really comes from two directions. Number one is submission to reality. God is the Creator; we are the creature. That fundamental distinction is the most important distinction in all of the Christian worldview, that God is who He is and He makes us distinct from Him and we submit to reality as He makes it. The inability to submit to reality is the highest form of arrogance and haughtiness, and you see that play out in a variety of ways in the current culture.

Secondly, you see that humility in the reality that we are sinners who need salvation. If we think that we're saving ourselves through good works or good acts or good deeds, or through science, we are deluded. Technology won't get us there; religion won't get us there; but wholehearted trust in the death and resurrection of Jesus for our sins, that we needed saving, not just teaching, is one of the core Christian convictions.

The word "meekness" in Matthew five, "blessed are the meek," the picture of that in the ancient Greek world was of a horse that was broken and bridled. I think that's a wonderful picture of godly masculinity, that you're a wild horse that is broken such that you've learned to accept the rider and you're bridled, you're being controlled and led by God Himself. It's not a picture of weakness, but of strength under control, specifically the self-control that allows oneself to be controlled by God.

Chuck Crismier: And that's exactly what was described of Moses; he was called the meekest of men, right? He was the most meek man in the whole land. Obviously, he was quite masculine in all of his bearing, otherwise, the people could not have and would not have respected him.

Seth Trout: Yeah, and the integrity of that meekness because Moses wrote that he was the meekest of all men, and all his peers read what he wrote and said, yep, and they didn't challenge him on it. I think that's just interesting how Moses, writing the first five books, is confident enough to describe himself as meek and to not think that his wife or his brothers would say like, who do you think you are calling yourself meek? You're not that guy. But his character was well-attested in the community.

Chuck Crismier: Yet Yeshua, Jesus, was called meek and mild. So, he has actually been recast in our modern culture and for years as a metrosexual. It's unbelievable how feminized Jesus is manifested and even talked about in our culture.

Seth Trout: Jesus describes his heart as gentle and lowly at heart or meek and lowly at heart, and that same guy is able to confront the Pharisees, call them whitewashed tombs. He's able to make a whip and drive people with violence out of the temple, and was willing to go to the cross and was willing to suffer for love in a way that few people ever understand. He's the same guy who come back at the end of the Book of Revelation and slaughter his enemies and cast them into eternal judgment. All of that is true of the meek and mild Jesus, that He is this well-rounded vision of what godliness looks like.

Chuck Crismier: Isn't it interesting that Revelation 19 gives us an amazing picture of Jesus riding on that white stallion and bringing the nations under dominion by the sword of His mouth? Quite different than the androgynous Jesus that's pictured so often in people's minds and hearts. We'll be right back. Authentic Masculinity, friends. What a great book. $15 on our website, saveus.org.

Guest (Male): There is so much more about Chuck Crismier and Save America Ministries on our website, saveus.org. For example, under the marriage section, God has marriage on His mind. Chuck has some great resources to strengthen your marriage. First off, a fact sheet on the state of the marital union, a fact sheet on the state of ministry marriage and morals, saveus.org. Marriage, divorce, and remarriage, what does the Bible really teach about this? Find all of this at saveus.org. Also, a letter to pastors, the Hosea Project, saveus.org, and many more resources to strengthen your marriage. It's all on Chuck's website, saveus.org. Again, you can listen to Chuck's Viewpoint broadcast live and archived, Save America Ministries website at saveus.org.

Chuck Crismier: What is biblical masculinity? What is God's view of a man? Not of mankind or humankind, but of a man? What does God expect of men? When the Scripture says "quit you like men" or conduct yourself like men, what does that mean? What are the implications for your life, my friend, as you're listening? Are you conducting yourself like a man? You say, well, I am a man; I have genitalia that represents me as a man. No, that's not what we're talking about. That's biological equipment, but it's not the way you live. What is the attitude of our minds and our hearts, our ways? Are we conducting ourselves like true men?

Do our wives trust us as men who are walking in humility and discipline and responsibility and chivalry? Do your children see that? You see, this is what we're talking about, and especially now, when we have just the entire world cascading on the United States with this new soccer fever. Seth, the sports field, the football, the basketball, and now soccer, I mean, this is commandeering the whole world into a masculine fervor, isn't it?

Seth Trout: Men love to compete, and they love to watch other men compete. I do think some of that is related to the way God wired us to be attracted to and drawn to power.

Chuck Crismier: Is that why pastors compete with one another?

Seth Trout: Perhaps so. Competition can make you better; it's inspiring. There's a virility to it. I think it was designed to cause an instinct to worship. We see God's power, the same reason why you hear a thunderclap and it shakes your bones and you're in awe, the same reason you like monster trucks and fast cars and NFL players. I do think power is attractive to people made in God's image. When that power is deployed in the right context, it should make us think of and ultimately turn to Christ and turn to God and go, what a display of power we see in Christ, what a display of power under self-control, that the man who was by very nature God didn't consider equality with God a thing to be grasped or leveraged, but made Himself nothing taking the form of a servant. Now that is impressive, that humility.

Chuck Crismier: Philippians chapter two, that's the image right there. You're talking about discipline. A man has to be under discipline. He has to be disciplined. Why is it that so many young men are told by their fathers, hey, you need to go into the military? Why would a father say that? I heard one say that just the other day. Well, he needs to go into the military. There's one reason: discipline. He sees his son as undisciplined. What say you?

Seth Trout: I think that discipline is downstream from rightly ordered affections and loves. If I really want to eat 12 donuts for breakfast, but more than that I don't want a stomachache and more than that I want to be fit and more than that I want to be able to function as an employee and not go comatose from a sugar withdrawal at 10 AM, my greater love trumps my lesser love and I don't eat the 12 donuts for breakfast and I have something like yogurt or whatever it is.

Part of the reason that men lack so much discipline is they lack the right loves, the right values. They value comfort, they value ease, they value the dopamine doom loop, the doom scroll of Instagram and TikTok, and they end up loving that more than they love the possibility of self-conquest. I think with pornography and video games, it's fake sex, fake money, fake wins, fake victory, and the spiritual warfare that we have playing out in the world is actually far more compelling than that.

Part of the reason we can teach men to be disciplined is by giving them something greater to fight for. That's one of the things the military does so well, is it makes you go: you need to think about more than you. Your discipline is in service to the greater good in the common life. That's why I think the military is so successful at creating discipline in men is it gives them something to love besides themselves.

In an even greater way, churches can do the same thing when it gives young men something to love more than themselves, which is the mission of God here on earth. Like I said, man's not God, so he needs to be humble. But then also the next layer up, the reason that discipline one is that man's not an animal, so he needs to have discipline. Animals are just ruled by instincts and desires, whereas man with moral vision and rightly ordered loves can have discipline over his instincts and desires, rightly order them, and therefore build himself into the type of man that's a blessing to the common good.

Chuck Crismier: Let's compare that then with Frank Sinatra, the ultimate American, as he supposedly gave us the secondary national anthem, "I'll do it my way." So that is the spirit of unregenerate masculinity, isn't it? "I'll do it my way."

Seth Trout: It's absolute repudiation of God's design, His purposes, and His teaching. The Scriptures are not just law in like the abstract impersonal sense, but they are Torah, fatherly instruction for people. It's teaching us how to live best in God's world straight out of God's Word. When I say I'm going to do it my way, there's perhaps a narrow sense in which that may be true, I don't necessarily want to just repeat what other people have done. But the mark of wisdom is the capacity to steal best practices and learn from other people's failures and to not have the naivety that means I'm going to learn all my all my mistakes on my own. But I think some of the wisdom literature is there to help men avoid making avoidable mistakes, and what a gift all that is.

Chuck Crismier: If we're going to translate our lives in genuine biblical masculinity to our sons and our daughters, it seems to me that the most important way to do that is not just what we say, but what we do. How we conduct ourselves, how we conduct ourselves with regard to God's authority. If I'm not willing to submit to God's authority, how can I expect my kids to submit to mine? If a man is to have the premiere authority in the home, under which Mom rules with him, then how are the children supposed to respect that if Dad does not honor and respect what God has said?

Seth Trout: Oh, for sure. I think one of the most basic principles in parenting is that more is caught than is taught. What I'm modeling matters more than what I'm saying, and what I'm saying it better line up with what I'm doing. I think the most important Bible verse when it comes to parenting is one of the most uncited, which is when Jesus says, let your yes be yes and your no be no.

The lack of parental integrity is what creates rebellion in kids most of the time. If they perceive that I'm talking about both sides of my mouth and I'm trying to teach them this do as I say not as I do thing, that is not going to create the respect that will lead to children who love and respect their parents. The lack of a fatherly integrity is a big part of it. If I'm going to ask my kids to do something that I'm not doing, I'm in a bad position. If I'm not submitting to elders, if I'm not sitting under preaching, if I'm not submitting to the Scriptures, and then I'm telling my kids to obey their parents because the Bible says so, I'm not creating a reinforcement loop that's going to be helpful to them at all.

Chuck Crismier: It's been said that the key identity for masculinity is testosterone. Well, that's what leads men fundamentally to pursue porn. So, when 70% of professing Christian men admit to being involved in pornography, are they in humility bringing themselves under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, or are they under the dominion of testosterone and their visual motivation? When 30 plus percent of pastors admit to being involved in pornography, the same thing is true. So, I mean, this comes very close to home because it's so prevalent in our culture and yes, in the church house. Help us to understand how we deal with masculinity in the context of the pervasiveness of porn.

Seth Trout: The third layer of the masculinity pyramid is that man's not a boy, so he is responsible. The opposite of responsibility is blame-shifting. That's what we see Adam do in the garden; he says that woman you gave me, he blames his sin, his passivity, his rebellion on God and Eve in the same breath. As men go from being children to being adults, part of what they have to do is take responsibility for their sin, take responsibility for their foolishness, take responsibility for all their behavior and recognize that the buck has to stop with you when it comes to you.

Chuck Crismier: So, how do you speak to a man that's listening right now that's got a real problem with porn? Doesn't want to admit it, but has it.

Seth Trout: The first thing I'd say is, by definition, the Bible labels that not just sin, but incestuous. First Timothy five says to treat other younger women as sisters in all purity. It's called adultery as well. When you start thinking about sexual objectification of women as incestuous, you start to see how actually disgusting it is in God's eyes and how these women on the internet are under-fathered or un-fathered and they're grasping for attention to somehow try to provide some illicit form of means for themselves, and you're participating in that and financially supporting it whenever you give in your eyeballs to that for two seconds.

I do think that the desire for sex is inherently good, God created it, and God created testosterone to make strength and to drive people towards their wives. But like anything, in the wrong context, in the wrong way, at the wrong time, it is not good. So, if you're looking at pornography on any type of regular basis or any type of basis at all, you have to just be honest with yourself and with God about the high-handedness of your rebellion.

Jesus, part of like what he would say is like a masculine response, he says if your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off. He's saying be aggressive even to the point of violence in dealing with your sin as harshly as is necessary. You may need to go through a period of not having access to technology to kind of achieve some level of sobriety. You may need to deal with some like underlying wounds that have caused you to go to these things for comfort in a way that maybe a heroin addict might. You have to recognize that sometimes what I talk to young guys who are looking at that, they're not actually lustful at first, but they're lonely and they just kind of lack intimacy in any healthy sense with either their wife or high-quality male friends. The lack of being seen and known is part of what drives people to the secrecy and anonymity of the internet for escape.

Chuck Crismier: Yet what the medical profession increasingly and psychological profession are telling us is that pornography is as addictive or more so than cocaine. It affects the mind, the will, and the emotions just like or even worse than cocaine. So, it's very difficult to be disciplined before the Lord and to be responsible when indeed I'm giving up that responsibility to a drug. We'll be right back.

Guest (Male): Have you ever considered what the early church was like? Many people are developing a heart longing for a greater fulfillment in our practices as Christians. A recent study showed 53,000 people a week are leaving the back door of America's churches in frustration. What is going on? Why has there not been even a 1% gain among followers of Christ in the last 25 years? Could it be that God is seeking to restore first-century Christianity for the 21st century? Jesus said, "I'll build my church." Is Christ by His Spirit stirring to prepare the church for the 21st century? The early church prayed together and broke bread from house to house. They were family, and it was said by all who observed, "Behold how they love one another." Incredible, but the same can be found right now. Go to saveus.org and click Cell Church. We can revive first-century Christianity for the 21st century. It's about people, not programs. It's about a body, not a building. That's saveus.org. Click Cell Church.

Chuck Crismier: Always a special privilege to join you here on the program today as we confront the deepest issues of America's heart and home from God's eternal perspective. We've been doing this now for 31 years, friends. 31 years. My goodness, I practiced law as a trial lawyer for 20 years and I thought that was a fair amount of time, but 31 years. You see, we're preparing the way of the Lord for history's final hour, even as we talk about masculinity here today. Because God wants us to conduct ourselves like men.

But here's a problem, Seth, as I see it. When I came out with the book Hearts of the Fathers, Leaving a Legacy that Lasts, two-thirds of all those books were purchased by Christian women. Why? Why do you think that is?

Seth Trout: I think generally speaking, it's assumed that women read and men listen. So, that's one of the reasons why I think a radio ministry is important, why I think podcasts are important. It's why we're doing an audiobook for the book at some point.

Chuck Crismier: Why is it, though, that the women invited me to speak and the men didn't?

Seth Trout: I think the men are, generally speaking, feeling like they are overwhelmed and overcommitted with work and they don't have the imagination or the creative capacity to reflect and self-evaluate. I think that's a tragedy and I think that's part of the weakness that exists. I do think, with the ancient Greek philosophers, there's a reality that the unexamined life is not worth living and that we ought to be able to look in the mirror. I think about David needing Nathan to come and tell him a parable and help him see himself in the mirror. You are the man. David wasn't walking around self-reflecting; he needed a prophet to come to his life and say, you are the man, repent. And then David all of a sudden thought about himself and realized how he was astray.

Chuck Crismier: Here's what I've discovered as I was addressing women by their request concerning Hearts of the Fathers. They would applaud and say, yeah, it's like a cheerleading session. Why? Because they felt that their husbands were not conducting themselves like spiritual men. They were not being the spiritual leaders of their home. They were not engaged in self-discipline. They were not being responsible before God. They were not chivalrous. It was speaking to their hearts saying, this is what I've been yearning for for all of our married life.

Seth Trout: Yes, I think so many women, if they understood that their husband was actually trying to be a biblical man, would just feel so relieved. There's so much controversy around the idea of male headship as described in the Bible. It's interesting noticing that Paul never once commands men to be the head; he just observes that man is the head. So, the question that men have to really reflect on is not will I be the head but what type of head of the household will I be? Most women, if they saw their husband functioning as a godly head of the household, would be eager to submit to that. That's what my wife says over and over again.

The word "hupotasso" or "submit" in the Scriptures, it's describing an umbrella or a shelter or a tent that you come up under in order to be protected from the elements. So, some men are unsubmittable to because they're like a folded-up, unset-up tent that's piled up in the corner and their wife goes, how can I submit to that? I'd have to military crawl under that thing and it's not really going to provide any shelter for me. Whereas if men go, part of what I need to do to be the anti-Adam—because Adam was supposed to serve and protect and he didn't do it in the garden, and instead he's passive and he leaves his wife to fend for herself against the serpent and then he's led by her into sin—if I want to be the opposite of Adam, I need to have vision for myself, vision for my marriage, vision for my household, and I need to include my wife in that in such a way that she's eager and excited. I've yet to really meet a woman whose husband was functioning with that Christ-like headship who struggled with that ongoing kind of role of submission.

Chuck Crismier: But women feel like they are being left alone to fulfill what the husband should have been doing with regard to the children, spiritual leadership in the home, and it's creating a very unstable situation without the kind of trust, I think, that God wanted to establish in a Christian home.

Seth Trout: Absolutely. They're having to over-function to fulfill both roles rather than have a man who's rightly functioning and allowing the woman to fulfill her role in a way that doesn't overstress her and burn her out.

Chuck Crismier: Now, it used to be said, we used to hear years ago when I was growing of a kid—which was some period of time ago by the way, Seth—chivalry. It was a word that was not demeaned. Today, the word chivalry is looked upon by women as something negative. Don't open the car door for me; I'm a woman, I'm capable of doing that. You don't have to protect me. That attitude. How does a man deal with that?

Seth Trout: Well, I think the idea is telling women it has nothing to do with capability. It has to do with my desire to honor you. It's similar with what I tell parents who are trying to regulate their kids' social media use. Their kids will come to me and say like, my parents don't trust me. It's like, it's not about their lack of trust in you; it's about their lack of trust in Silicon Valley. That's why they're trying to regulate your internet consumption.

I think it's similar what I talk to my wife. I open the door for her or I try to control the finances in a way that supports our vision. This is not about her being incompetent or her being incapable. This is about me trying to absorb as much as possible that Genesis three curse so I don't pass it on to my wife. This is really about creating space where she feels honored and cherished. Ephesians five, cherish and nourish, that I am treating her as precious and I'm anticipating and meeting her needs to the best of my ability. That's not because she's unable to meet her own needs. It's not because she's unable to fend for herself, but it's my job to fend for her.

Chuck Crismier: But the Apostle Peter says to treat her as the weaker vessel, with the understanding that she is the weaker vessel.

Seth Trout: First Peter 3:7, the top of that pyramid to show honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, to live with her in an understanding way, lest your prayers be hindered. God says if you don't listen to your wife, I'm not going to listen to you. So, there is a threat there that I think husbands should be aware of. If I'm not honoring my woman as the weaker vessel on the basis of our bodily difference and going out of my way to try to do that, God goes, well, I'm stronger than you, what makes you think I should honor you? So, there is a bit of a "reap what you sow" there. The reap what you sow there is very true when it comes to the way that men interact with God is going to be representative of how they interact with their wife.

Chuck Crismier: Seth, how long you been married?

Seth Trout: About 12 years, 12 and a half years.

Chuck Crismier: All right, good for you. You're pressing on the upward way, new heights are gaining every day, right?

Seth Trout: It's a little up, a little down, sometimes like the stock market. I have great days, I have bad days, but on the whole, it's up and to the right and I enjoy being married. My only regret is that I should have got married a little earlier. I got married at 23 and I wish I would have done 21.

Chuck Crismier: I was 21, and when I was 21 it was a very good year. We've had ups and downs, and on July 29th we'll celebrate our 60th.

Seth Trout: Phenomenal.

Chuck Crismier: We were talking about it this morning. Marriage is like climbing. I'm reading a book right now for the second time called The Will to Climb by Ed Viesturs, who is the first American and I think the only American to have ascended all of the 14 8,000-meter peaks in the Himalaya. He writes about a variety of different climbers and so on, called The Will to Climb. When you're climbing, it's not all straight up. Sometimes you're going across, sometimes you're going down in order to go up. It's like that in marriage, isn't it?

Seth Trout: A lot of times that kind of maintaining of a false peace actually creates a worse marriage. You have to have the conflict, you have to own the sin, you have to debrief things. I think a conflict-free marriage—and obviously, I don't mean conflict in screaming and yelling and being all dysregulated and childish tantrum, but I do mean the appropriate conflict that leads to resolution and connection. So many people are afraid of that conflict, they lack the courage to initiate it and to have it and to have the humility to sit in it, that they never actually hit that deeper richer connection and intimacy.

Chuck Crismier: Speaking of men, how about boys? What's the difference between a boy and a man other than his height or his weight? Years ago, a gentleman wrote a book dealing with, I think it was called The Mature Man. He painted this amazing picture between boyhood and manhood, and then he moved to a third level called patriarchy. In other words, that God didn't desire us just to move from boyhood to manhood, but actually to become in essence a patriarch in our families. What would you say to that?

Seth Trout: That term is loaded, and depending on how you understand it, I love it. I think when you're talking about patriarchy there, I think you're talking about legacy and generational patterns that far outlive you and this really this capacity to think and make decisions on the basis of your grandkids, your great-grandkids, not just on the basis of maximizing the pleasure of the next week, month, or year.

So much of what I try to encourage guys to do when they're trying to learn how to work hard is I say, I want you to work so hard that your kids and your grandkids never have to spend an hour in daycare because you'll be available, financially connected, emotionally connected to the kids and grandkids and even really trying to do this work of establishing generational patterns that honor the Lord and extend for generations. I think a lot of guys, the most important work they'll ever do is to break dysfunctional generational patterns and establish new ones and create a legacy that far outlasts them.

Chuck Crismier: Periodically when I'm out in a parking lot or somewhere, maybe at a restaurant or something, and I open the door for my wife, someone across the parking lot or nearby will observe and comment, "Wow, you still hold on to chivalry. I'm so proud of you." We need to see more examples of that, don't we?

Seth Trout: I think the examples to find that are few and far between. That's one of the reasons why I think young men, middle-aged men in particular, need to plant themselves in local churches. So many guys grow up in houses where that chivalry is not modeled and you have to go and acquire to yourself good models that are in the flesh-type people.

I have a buddy whose marriage has been rough lately and it's been pretty sad to watch. But they found these mentors in the church who are 80 and 82 years old, and it's like God turned a light bulb onto the darkness. They got a vision for what they were trying to be beyond just survive the grind of little kid life. Neither of them have a healthy family they're coming from, and having that kind of mentor relationship with a woman who receives chivalry and a man who gives chivalry and that mutual respect and honor that plays out there was actually healing to them, just having proximity to good models and mentors.

Chuck Crismier: Well, you never know who's watching. Certainly our kids are watching. Certainly our wives are watching, our neighbors and so on. Everywhere we go somebody's watching. Authentic masculinity, we want to make sure we display that everywhere we go. If we feel weak in any regard, God says, quit you like men; conduct yourself like a man from my viewpoint, not from the culture's viewpoint, but from my viewpoint. When we do that, God will bless us and lead us and direct us.

Seth, I perceive that you are a very wise man, that you're a very wise and understanding guy. I give you great tribute for that, the way you express yourself, the understanding that you have here. I believe that you're going to display authentic masculinity to your kids, to your wife, and everybody in your congregation.

Friends, the book is called Authentic Masculinity. $15 will put the $17 book in your hands. It's on our website, saveus.org. Give us a call at 1-800-SAVEUSA. Write to us at Save America Ministries, P.O. Box 70879, Richmond, Virginia 23225. We're going to put the book in your hands. I believe it will be inspiring. Seth, at least two or three times during our conversation you mentioned the word vision. The Bible says without a vision the people perish. That's what God expects us to have as true men before God. We have to have a vision for our life in the kingdom of God, seeking first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and then carrying that out in every single aspect of our life as true men, don't we?

Seth Trout: Amen.

Chuck Crismier: All right, brother, thank you so much. Hold the fort out there in Arizona; it's getting pretty hot.

Seth Trout: I'll do my best. Thanks for having me.

Chuck Crismier: Friends, become a partner. Send your gifts by faith to Save America Ministries. Do it today, don't delay. Remember the other guy's not doing it; it's time for us all to pick up the mantle of responsibility to help get the message out to prepare the way of the Lord for history's final hour. Do it today. Get a copy of this wonderful book Authentic Masculinity. Get a copy of Hearts of the Fathers, Leaving a Legacy that Lasts, in preparation for Father's Day. God bless, be a blessing, be a blessing first to your family and then to those around you as true men.

Guest (Male): You've been listening to Viewpoint with Chuck Crismier. Viewpoint is supported by the faithful gifts of our listeners. Let me urge you to become a partner with Chuck as a voice to the church declaring vision for the nation. Join us again next time on Viewpoint as we confront the issues of America's heart and home.