Focus on the Family

Dannah Gresh: The standard is not virginity. The standard is not, "Don't do this, don't do that." The standard is holiness.

John Fuller: That's Dannah Gresh, and she's with us again today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly to encourage you to live with sexual integrity. I'm John Fuller, and as you can probably tell, this is going to be a conversation that isn't appropriate for children. Have them elsewhere or use your headphones or earbuds.

Jim Daly: I like that. Thanks for that instruction, John. You know, I so appreciated the conversation last time with Dannah. If you missed it, go to the website or get the app for your phone, and you'll have access to the whole library of programs. It was meaty. It had so much in it, and we're going to continue the discussion today in this area of sexuality.

The purity movement, we covered some of that last time and what we need to convey to our kids, how we need to live our lives in such a way that our children see a healthy spiritual attitude toward sexuality. You say that at the right time, and then it gets more serious about the teen years, and you need to talk more adult-like to those teens and get them ready for the challenges they're going to face. That's the spirit in which we're going to address this today.

I have talked to people in Christian radio, pastors, etc. It's kind of like this is the look—if you can't see me or listening on the audio—it's a cringe of covering your ears, and that's not the attitude we should have. God created intimacy for marriage, and it should be enjoyed and celebrated and lifted up as a great thing. I love that attitude, and that's how I share with my boys. But we need to talk about things. When we are silent, the world fills the vacuum, and this is not a place where you want the world to fill your child's heart.

John Fuller: Yeah, and Dannah brought such great biblical perspective and wisdom. We're so glad to have her back today. She's the founder of True Girl. She's a writer, a speaker, a podcaster, and she's taken a best-selling book and rewritten it and updated it. It's called *And the Bride Wore White*, and we've got copies of that here. Get yours to address this topic in your family. We have it here at the ministry, and you'll find it at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim Daly: Dannah, welcome back. Great day yesterday. Thanks for being with us then and now.

Dannah Gresh: I'm so grateful.

Jim Daly: This is the topic nobody wants to touch.

Dannah Gresh: Including me, I might add.

Jim Daly: You are reluctant. It's so interesting, but it is good. It's so healthy. In the church, we need to win back what is healthy. You know, last time I wanted to mention this, but you were talking about the physiology involved in physical intimacy. You think about it, I'm learning so much with Dr. Henry Cloud and other psychologists, Christians, and psychiatrists. The Word of God is exploding right now with scientific discovery.

Even the bonding features that God put in us, particularly women, that when you have that physical intimacy with your husband or somebody else, that bonding hormone is going. And there's a purpose in that. That's not evolution, everybody. There's a purpose that God put that into us so that we would be one flesh, committed to each other for life, for better or for worse. God even made it so plain that He chemically created that in our brain science.

Dannah Gresh: I would say that's why my husband bought me a necklace that was the shape of the chemical makeup of the neurochemical oxytocin, which is what creates that bonding because I so geek out on this. God actually created us for that.

But here's something really fascinating. There's a study that revealed that women in particular don't seem to make that oxytocin quite as freely when they're not inside of a committed relationship. So we're short-changing ourselves when we're treating sex casually.

Jim Daly: Once again, I just think it's a wonderful discovery that they're making where spiritual truth out of scripture is being found in science.

Dannah Gresh: We're starting to understand God's word. We're like, "Oh, He had it right after all." It shouldn't shock us, but the more they discover, the more it points to God's word, which is great.

Jim Daly: Let's talk about the seven truths about sexual integrity. I've not used that term. First of all, I like that term, sexual integrity. It's such a modern, beautiful phrase. It's positioned and formed in the right direction. That's what it speaks to me: integrity of a building, integrity of a bridge. It means it's built for a purpose and it's doing its purpose. Sexual integrity in that way, that we're built for a purpose like we've talked about and we're doing that correctly.

Boy, will the world come against that. Oh my gosh. They want to rip down every bit of modesty or desire to marry as a virgin, etc. They just want to tear it down.

Dannah Gresh: Isn't it funny that every sexual choice is an applauded and appropriate sexual choice except for the biblical sexual choice? That one's ridiculed. Well, wait, if all these other sexual choices are okay, why isn't this one okay?

Jim Daly: Another indicator of spiritual warfare and confusion. It's true. You can talk about all of these and it's lauded, and then talk about a Christian perspective—how archaic.

Dannah Gresh: You bring up one of the big cultural lies we need to prepare our kids for, which is that God's word is outdated or His rules about sex are old-fashioned. The fact is they were never in style. Paul writes on the backdrop of a Roman and Greek culture that was far more permissive than ours. Pedophilia was very normalized during that time, and yet he says the standard is not virginity. The standard is not, "Don't do this, don't do that." The standard is holiness.

Holiness. Christians live set apart. They live different, and they live according to God's good design.

Jim Daly: Boom, there it is. Let's get to the seven truths. You speak to the first one: sexual integrity reflects the heart of Jesus. Let me list them, and then we'll go back. Can we do that?

Dannah Gresh: Sure.

Jim Daly: Okay, so that was one. Sexual integrity doesn't slide, it decides. You mentioned that one. Sexual integrity walks in dignity. All of these, you've got to stop and think about it. We're going to come back, so don't panic. Sexual integrity respects boundaries. Sexual integrity requires healthy communication. These are all like "amen" comments. Sexual integrity banks on family wisdom. Sexual integrity pursues discipleship. That is such a meaty list. So let's go back to the first one: sexual integrity reflects the heart of Jesus. How?

Dannah Gresh: This is huge. I don't know if you know, but Focus on the Family is a big part of my healing story. So let me tell you how that happened. I mentioned yesterday how I would wake up feeling shame from my sexual past. The word "purity" was this pain word for me because I was a youth leader during this purity conversation that was happening in the '90s and early 2000s. That word hurt me when I heard it, and all I could think is, "I am not pure." It felt like a battering ram to my heart.

Of course, as you said yesterday, the world is going to tell you that's because the Christians have set up all these rules and guidelines of behavior that are just not attainable, and that's why you feel that way. But I took that word to the Lord and I said, "Jesus, what is the truth about this word?" What I found is that I was never pure. Ironically, the truth for our lives is not always the opposite.

Psalm 51:5 says, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the moment my mother conceived me." I had to come to a place where I realized that, and then I look in the Word and I see who is pure. Jesus. Jesus is pure. Because He is pure and because He has saved me, and because when the Father looks at me, He sees the account or record of Jesus, because of that, I can walk in purity and integrity. It changed everything for me. It flipped everything for me.

I'm driving down the highway listening to God counsel my heart on, "Dannah, you weren't never pure. I purify you." And the reason that you behave in a pure manner is so that you can reflect me inside of you. I don't know if this is making any sense to anybody listening today, but for me it was like Eureka. I was able to take the truth of who I was to Jesus and also stand in the boldness of, "I am pure because of Christ."

So I'm driving down the highway considering this, my six-month-old baby girl in the backseat of my car, and Focus on the Family comes on. What are they talking about? Talking to your daughter about sex. Do you think this was God-timed, God-orchestrated? I hear Dr. Dobson's voice say, "What's the number one question on that teenage girl's mind when she's talking to her mom about sex?"

The woman said, "The number one question on that teenage girl's mind is, 'Mom, did you wait?'" This juxtaposition of the purity of Christ and the impure—I felt impure because I had behaved in an impure way, that's why I felt it—but this call was like, "Wait, my baby girl, I'm going to have to deal with this impurity and this pain in my life to disciple her well."

I pull to the side of the road, I allow ten years of grief to engulf me. I drive straight home, I tell my husband, "I know you think you married the driven snow. Let me confess to you." And that was the first time he had heard it, five years of marriage. There's less of that today because the church is talking about sex more, and I'm so thankful for that. I encourage transparency in the dating relationship so that you're not walking into this five years into marriage. But he held me, and it felt like the arms of Jesus. He said, "I don't think I need to say it, but I think you need to hear it. You are forgiven."

It felt like the voice of God, and that allowed me to begin to walk in the purity of Christ. So sexual integrity is not about us behaving well. It's about the record of Jesus, and we reflect that record.

Jim Daly: You know, as you're speaking, I'm thinking of the prodigal son. You could put that in the context of a prodigal daughter, and this theme fits that story. But the irony there is the Lord very specifically through the actions of the father is showing that enthusiasm for the younger brother coming home after he squandered his father's treasure on party life, if I could call it that.

The older brother was really mad because he was the rule follower, and he was jealous. The very end of the parable, the younger brother's inside at the feast and the older brother's outside looking in, which many theologians say that's the story of the feast of heaven, that the religious person doesn't make it in.

Also, Rosario Butterfield, who was on the broadcast—if you've never heard her on the Focus program, I'd encourage you to again get the app because those are powerful programs. The first time I interviewed her, she was a former lesbian teacher from Syracuse University. She was an activist, used to write articles against Focus on the Family and Promise Keepers, very dogmatic ideologically. She said she befriended a pastor who invited her to his home for dinner with his wife, and over two and a half years they led her to the Lord.

She said it hit me that I was living my verb, "lesbian," not living my noun, "made in His image." You said it the same way. We're believing who we are is what we do, especially in sin. She said when she caught that in her context of English literature, it changed her life. That moment was it. No more appetite for same-sex attraction. Nothing. She ended up marrying a pastor.

Dannah Gresh: Not everybody has the sovereign deliverance like she did. Sometimes we have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, but there is Jesus expunges the record.

John Fuller: Dannah Gresh is our guest today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, and we're covering some of the great content in this weighty but really wonderful resource called *And the Bride Wore White*. We'll encourage you to get a copy of that book and find other helpful resources on this topic. We have a lot there at our website, and that's focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim Daly: Dannah, it's kind of obvious to everybody we're not going to get through all seven here, but we're going to fly to try to get as many as possible. You covered the second one before we started, which was sexual integrity doesn't slide, it decides. So let's leave that to itself. Go to number three here. The third truth is that sexual integrity walks in dignity. What does it mean to walk in dignity? I think that's lost on the church even.

Dannah Gresh: This is such an important word. Dignity is inherent worth or value, that it shows value. Every human life has dignity, period. We have dignity because we are image bearers of the God of the universe. That doesn't change based on how we show up in life, ever.

But the call of scripture is that we would reflect that dignity. The call of scripture is that we would show up with the way that we talk, the things that we look at, the things we hear, the way that we dress, in a way that says we are image bearers of God. I think where this gets really complicated for moms today is in the area of teaching our daughters how to dress appropriately and with dignity, because the world is out there saying you can't talk to your daughter about how to dress, you're going to body shame her.

We have to have a really rich conversation about this. We can't just turn—there's like three places, maybe four in scripture that addresses the word "modesty." So it's not a robust theology that we have. But what is robust is the theology of clothing. You go back from Genesis to Revelation.

I titled my book *And the Bride Wore White* because I didn't feel like wearing white on my wedding day. I didn't feel worthy. I didn't have an awareness of my dignity. But when I looked at the book of Revelation and the bride of the Lamb is wearing white—the sinful, broken bride of the Lamb is wearing white—I was like, "Through Christ I get to wear white on my wedding day."

Go back though to Genesis. I think this is really important, and this is where I pull our rights and responsibility as mothers to teach our daughters to dress. Adam and Eve show up. What are they? They're ashamed, they're hiding. God comes and says, "Where are you?" So he's relational first. He doesn't discipline them. He says, "Where are you? I miss you."

And then what does he do? We see the first bloodshed. An animal dies. The first shedding of blood for sin happens right there in Genesis 3. God puts on them garments of fur, comforting garments of fur. He comforts them in their sin. Now, the Bible calls these—the Hebrew word is a word that's similar to tunic.

It's believed that that tunic or the garment that is specifically mentioned is a garment of honor. It's sort of like Joseph's coat of many colors. It was a tunic that said there's special dignity here in this boy. So what God is doing is taking the sin that stripped their dignity and saying, "I am putting these garments on you to remind you of your dignity."

The way we dress matters. Now, can we teach our daughters the appropriate way to dress in a way that body shames them? Yes, and we have to be very careful that we're not saying your body is bad. We're just saying some clothing doesn't reflect the dignity and worth of you as a daughter of God.

Jim Daly: Dannah, there always is that appropriate criticism that the male side of this equation should have some responsibility. Just because someone may not dress totally appropriately shouldn't give a green light to a boy or a man mistreating that woman. So we need to make that disclaimer known, obviously. Boys and men need to restrain and behave themselves in that context.

Dannah Gresh: I've taught frequently on the fact that a man's behavior is a man's responsibility, period. The way that a girl shows up or dresses has nothing to do with giving him a right to behave badly. At the same time, I want to be very careful to say that because that thinking is out there, let's not be silent about teaching our daughters the beauty of reflecting.

The way we dress isn't about not being sexual. I want to be very clear about that. The way I dress is about nothing the way that I am wearing today distracts for people seeing Jesus in me. That's the point. If there is any sin in immodesty, it's not about our bodies. It's about saying, "I want more attention than Jesus. I want more attention than God."

Jim Daly: That's a good point. That's a strong one. Wow, that hits right at the core of the culture, because it is all about "look at me," whether you're a boy or a girl. That's a good thought.

The next truth is about boundaries, and you share in the book a story about your husband, Bob, who set a boundary with you. What happened?

Dannah Gresh: When Bob and I dated, we had a very beautiful, appropriate relationship. Sexual integrity marked our dating years. One of the reasons for that is first of all, I had learned my lesson. I knew the pain of sliding into bad behaviors, and so I had boundaries at that point that were important to me. Thankfully, so did Bob.

One day on a date, he just kissed me on the nose and said, "That's about as far as I want our physical contact to go." It wasn't a big conversation, but we were both communicating to each other that we cared about what scripture said about our sexual behavior. I think that was a trajectory-setting moment for us, and I think it matters. We need to teach our daughters and our sons to have conversations that reflect our boundaries.

Jim Daly: Did that give you a sense of safety, if I can put it that way?

Dannah Gresh: Oh yeah. Especially since the relationship before had been such a demanding physical relationship. For him to communicate to me that that is not how this relationship was going to work felt really safe.

Jim Daly: That's good. The fifth truth is that sexual integrity requires healthy communication. Let me just say a good marriage requires healthy communication. Why is communication important when it comes to sexual integrity specifically?

Dannah Gresh: Well, one thing is when you're talking and having a rich conversation, you're probably not having awkward moments of physical, "What do we do here?" So it's a good distraction. Here's the challenge today. A lot of teenagers are doing most of that communication through a device. So when they get with each other physically, they're struggling with how to communicate.

I think it's really helpful to just sit them down and say, "What are some questions you can ask to get to know this person better? What are your dreams? When did you come to know the Lord? What do you love most about your family? What's hardest about being in your family?" Giving them a list of questions helps them really have a healthy conversation.

Jim Daly: The sixth truth—I think we're going to make it. The sixth truth is about embracing family wisdom. Now, all of the parents went, "Yes and amen! Come for the wisdom of the family." What do you mean by this?

Dannah Gresh: I've always felt that this is really important. As I started working with girls in the year 2000, traveling across the country doing retreats, I saw that girls who had a healthy relationship with their parents tended to make healthier relationships in their dating life. Conversely, girls who especially didn't have a relationship with their dad—maybe through divorce or just awkward body changing—that they were struggling more.

There's some research that indicates that that's true, that there's a trend there. So what is very clear to me is that mom and dad speaking into this matters. If you survey girls and boys and say, "Who do you want to hear sexual advice from?" they're not going to be, "I'm excited to hear my mom and dad talk about sex." Their eyes are going to roll into the back of their head. But when you get down to the root of it, they're going to say, "The person I trust most on this topic is mom and dad."

It's really important. Let me say this. We do live in a culture that's trying to remove parental rights in so many spaces, especially related to the topic of sex and gender. So this is very counter-cultural, and I want to infuse the teenage girls that read this book with a different message: the message that it's not your school counselor that needs to hear when you're struggling with something, it's mom.

Jim Daly: That is good, and I think that would save a lot of heartbreak along the way that we're seeing now in court cases, especially in transition court cases like that, gender dysphoria.

All right, the last truth in your list is that sexual integrity pursues discipleship. Give me the understanding of that.

Dannah Gresh: Well, let's just take pornography for example. Very prevalent. Very few of our teenage kids are not seeing pornography. Most of them are. That can lead to a lifelong addiction. It did for my husband. A battle that he fought and is winning, but a hard battle that caused a lot of disruption in our marriage and in our life, in his heart, in his relationship with God.

Most kids that stumble across pornography don't know what to do with that. If they're not in some sort of accountability, they're probably going to do what any of us would do and fall into it deeper and deeper. So that's just one example of where having someone to talk to other than mom and dad—and I'm encouraging them to also be talking to mom and dad—but talking to your youth pastor, talking to an older, wiser college student who loves Jesus and loves you about my temptation on the internet, or my temptation in this dating relationship, or my loneliness in being a virgin and being made fun of in college or at school.

This is a really important ingredient in living a life of sexual integrity. Every young person needs someone older and wiser than them advising them on this topic.

Jim Daly: That's a good thought. The earlier in your life you can find that kind of mentoring relationship, the healthier you're going to be. Mom and dad will do that through the younger years and teen years, but I think it's really healthy. It's something we do here at Focus for staff. We encourage mentoring, older staff or wiser staff with younger staff just to help them in their journey. I think it's a good thing to do in every workplace when it's healthy.

Dannah, this has been terrific. I hope you have felt the wisdom flowing out, and that's the goal here: just to give perspective and to give you encouragement as you parent, or if you're the girl or young woman who is in a spot where you're feeling like something's got to change. Now is the day to do it.

One of the things you can do is get a copy of Dannah's book, *And the Bride Wore White: Seven Truths to Live in Sexual Integrity, No Matter Your Past*. The book is full of stories of healing and practical advice for women. We have copies for you here at Focus on the Family. When you make a monthly pledge of any amount, we'll send you a copy as our way of saying thank you for your support.

When you donate to Focus on the Family, you join with us in ministry. Every year, we help strengthen literally hundreds of thousands of believers and non-believers in countries all over the world. We want to keep reaching more and more families for Christ, but we need your year-round donations to keep creating resources and offering help. So be a partner with us. If a monthly gift doesn't work for you right now, we will also send you the book for a one-time gift of any amount.

John Fuller: Donate today when you call 800-A-FAMILY, or online at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Next time, Senator Tim Scott shares his optimism and inspiring American stories of the Christian faith as our country celebrates 250 years.

Tim Scott: One of the goals we should have as a nation, especially for 250 more continuous years of God's amazing grace on this nation, is we must embrace the reality that there's only one truth, and it is embedded in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

John Fuller: That's next time on Focus on the Family. Remember, when you get in touch, let us know how you're listening: on our website, through our mobile app, or on our podcast feed. I'm John Fuller, and on behalf of Jim Daly and the entire team, join us next time as we help you and your family thrive.

Jim Daly: Is your marriage struggling? Communication breaking down, trust fading, conflict that never seems to resolve? Well, there's still hope. Hope Restored Marriage Intensives by Focus on the Family helps couples step away from daily life and focus fully on rebuilding their relationship. Right now, through the Marriage Investment Initiative, Hope Restored is investing $1,000 toward marriage intensives. Visit hoperestored.com/invest.