Focus on the Family

John Fuller: This is John Fuller and please remember to let us know how you're listening to these programs on a podcast, app, or website.

Matt Bell: It took me four and a half years to get out of debt. It took time. It wasn't just going to happen instantly and it may take time for couples to get into a better place financially. Be patient. Put honoring the Lord first, put loving each other well second, put making a difference in the world third, and start to orient your finances that way. It may not change radically overnight, but eventually you'll be on a very, very good path.

John Fuller: That's Matt Bell and he joins us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. We're going to be exploring some healthy habits for your marriage with regard to finances. Thanks for joining us.

Jim Daly: Money can be a touchy subject within marriage and within families. It ranks right up there as number one, two, or three in the areas of marriage that couples really struggle with. So it's a very important topic. We try to do a program to help people with their finances probably every couple of months.

Let me rattle off some stats. Did you know about 40% of couples don't know their spouse's salary? I probably know just about every NFL salary. What is Bo Nix of the Broncos making? That would be an interesting question. Do you know more about the salary of sports figures and not your spouse?

Another one, 28% of couples admit to hiding significant purchases or debt from their spouse. I remember a story where a couple got married in their 20s. The woman had accumulated $250,000 of school debt for a French literature degree and had not disclosed it to her fiance and then husband. That would be a rude awakening. There are practical, biblical approaches to money and the main point is simply good to be reminded of how we should manage that money.

John Fuller: It's great to have Matt Bell back with us. He's been here before. Our listeners really resonate with his insights. He's a personal finance writer and speaker. He's the managing editor at Sound Mind Investing. He and his wife, Jude, have three young adult children. Today we're going to be talking about a brand new book that he's written called *Starting Strong: Discovering the Good That Money Can Do Through Your Marriage*.

Jim Daly: Matt, welcome back to Focus on the Family. It's good to have you. One of the most interesting things with financial folks, planners, helpers, writers on the topic is most of them come from a place of pain. You're not born necessarily with an aptitude to accounting. Most of the people that I've interviewed come from a period of time where they were in the hole and they had to figure it out. I really appreciate that. I think Dave Ramsey has that testimony. What's your prodigal story?

Matt Bell: It very much is just that, the prodigal son. I inherited $60,000 from an uncle when I was in my mid-20s. I had no idea he planned to leave me any money. It was an incredible gift, an incredible surprise, and I really did have good intentions with that money when I received it. I thought this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to do something amazing career-wise.

I loved to play golf and I loved to travel. I thought how can I turn all of that into a career? I created a newsletter for people to take golf vacations. While it lasted, it was amazing. I got to play Pebble Beach and these great golf courses in Southern Spain. It was everything I dreamed it could be except profitable.

Jim Daly: It sounds like you're ahead of the tech curve on that. You could have had a following, an app, people would have paid you money to go play golf.

Matt Bell: Keywords were "could have." I was about 20 years ahead of that one.

Jim Daly: Let me ask you this, Matt. If you would have invested that $60,000 in your 20s, you would have had $2 million by the time you were 65. Did you realize that?

Matt Bell: It is very painful to think about that, but you're exactly right.

Jim Daly: Compound interest is quite amazing, isn't it? You sound like some of my friends that talk about that. I have talked to people that have put $5,000 for their kids who were just born. They've shown me the models at average rates of growth from the stock market. You would expect about a million dollars when that one-year-old turns 65 without putting any more into it. It's amazing what it can turn into.

Matt Bell: In my case, I took the $60,000 and transformed it into $20,000 of credit card debt. You've got to do a lot of things wrong to do that and I was doing a lot of things wrong. It was a huge wake-up call. It was very humbling to see that dream die, to see the guilt of squandering my uncle's hard-earned money.

I moved home with my parents for six months and I was really down for the first couple of months that I was out there. God used it for great good. A friend of mine from college reached out and shared his faith with me. He had become a Christian a year after I graduated from college and that was life-changing unto itself because it got me exploring matters of faith and ultimately I placed my faith in Christ.

That would have been plenty to come out of that experience, but I also really got interested in learning about money. I was amazed at how much the Bible says on this topic. I've been writing about it, speaking about it, and learning about it ever more ever since then.

Jim Daly: I so appreciate that. Speaking to those who are listening or watching, that's a starting place. When you're in that valley, so often that's where the Lord begins to turn your heart and open your ears and eyes to what is true. The spiritual things that are most important usually come during those battles down in the gutter and not on the mountaintop. That comes later.

Let me ask you this in terms of scripture. Matthew 6:24 says you cannot serve both God and mammon. That's a very famous area of scripture. How can we cultivate an attitude toward money that honors God? In a culture that for the most part needs are taken care of in Western civilization, not all of it here in America, Canada, parts of Europe, how do we even get our hands around what the Lord would want for us and what we think is being poor or being rich?

Matt Bell: The Bible never says that money is a bad thing unto itself. The Bible doesn't say that money is the root of all evil as some people think it does. It says the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil and I think that's a really important distinction.

As we start to see that God's intentions for us are good, that he wants good things for us, and as we start to experience some of the worldly approaches to money and see that that's either not working or could be hollow if you do achieve some financial success, you start to see the Bible says so many things about money, so many practical things about money.

God just wants us to put him first. That's the thing. You can't serve both God and money. God needs to come first and then money is used according to his principles for his purposes. That's the approach that tends to work really, really well.

Jim Daly: You and Jude, your wife, you're engaged, you're looking at the registry. Everybody's done that. Our registry may have been Target, I don't remember, but that's probably a true story. You're looking at China. That was nice. That was the source of your first disagreement. Tell me what happened with that and how it pointed to a rub between the two of you.

Matt Bell: It's funny because we dated for six months and then we got engaged and things were going along really, really well. Then we started to register for gifts that we wanted other people to buy for us. It wasn't even our money we were spending. It was other people's money. It was in that department store, walking these aisles of plates and cups and saucers, that we realized we have very different views of what these things should look like.

It sounds so trivial, but it started to make me concerned. I'm very minimalist. My parents were that way, and I think I've adopted their views of design and art and what looks good. That's what I was drawn to, very simple, maybe plain white, sturdy would be good, it's going to last a long time.

Jude grew up in a home where there was a set of dishes on display, very formal gold-rimmed dishes, and their everyday plates had a floral design. Floral really works against my instincts. It was taking up way too much space. I started to think what other things in my life are going to have floral designs on them? I started to be a little bit fearful.

It's a funny anecdote, but really it pointed to the need to have lots of conversations and try to come together. I think over the years I've moved toward her and she's moved toward me on design issues so we've come together, but that was the first example of being on different pages on something.

Jim Daly: That's great, Matt. What was your second argument? No, I'm kidding. You don't need to answer that question. Let me mention this though, talking of arguments. According to one study from Fidelity, the resource management firm, they say as many as 25%, that's one in four couples, call money their most significant relationship challenge. That's a big number and probably if you look across the arc of decades of marriage, it doesn't go down typically. It still rests and bubbles at number one, two, or three. What's happening with those couples?

Matt Bell: Initially when couples come together in marriage, what's happening there is people don't enter marriage with a blank slate. We all bring something into our marriage. We bring stuff into our marriage. We bring how we saw our parents deal with money into our marriage that we may not even realize the degree to which it still works on us, but we bring that. That's a big factor.

We bring our hopes and dreams around money that might be very different from our spouse. We bring certain early experiences we've had with money. In my case, I had a lot of debt and that was a very traumatic experience. We bring very different temperaments into marriage and these things don't naturally just fit together. That's a source of a lot of friction and a lot of having to work things out early in marriage.

As time goes on, I think it's a failure to communicate. As you mentioned, people don't even know what their spouse earns for a living. That's just a failure to communicate. Just more communication around money and most things would probably help.

John Fuller: Along those lines, Matt, Jim mentioned this couple that got engaged and married and she had no disclosure about where she was at with her debt. You advocate full disclosure about all of that for couples that are getting married or have recently married. What's the importance of that?

Matt Bell: I advocate full financial disclosure before marriage and complete ongoing financial transparency after marriage. You don't want to be surprised when you get married at what you've actually married into with all this debt.

I really believe the vision for marriage in the Bible is oneness, it's unity. If one spouse was really wealthy before marriage, now once you're married you're both very wealthy. If one spouse had a lot of debt before marriage, when you come together in marriage, now you both have a lot of debt.

There's a great story that I have from my past where a couple that I know, Scott and Karen, she brought $50,000 of non-mortgage debt into their marriage. He called it a reverse dowry. That is so true. He had a great attitude about the whole thing though because she would always say early in their marriage, "My debt is keeping us from doing this or that. My debt, I feel so bad about my debt." He would always correct her and say, "It's not your debt, it's our debt."

I think that's a really bold act of leadership, an act of love, to take that perspective. I just want there to be no surprises. I want there to be full disclosure, maybe not on your first date, but as things start to get serious in a relationship and it seems to be headed toward marriage, now let's understand how much are we each earning, how much do we have in savings, are there any traumatic stories in our background around money? Ongoing, both parties should have access to all the finances.

Jim Daly: A surprising number of people never have the conversations. Well, we're trying to encourage you to have the conversations today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Our guest is Matt Bell and we're talking about a newly published book called *Starting Strong: Discovering the Good That Money Can Do in Your Marriage*. Get a copy from us here at the ministry when you stop by FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast.

Matt, what are some ways that couples can create that financial unity? What are some practical tools they can use?

Matt Bell: One of the things is simply having conversations about the past, how were you raised around money. That's really big. There was one couple that I tell the story of in the book where they were on some fun outing to Wrigley Field in Chicago. You're just at this great ballpark, but somehow the topic of money came up and it closed the conversation down because he found out that she was carrying a balance on a credit card and that to him was an absolute no-no.

It was a troubling, difficult conversation, but it also opened up the door to more conversations where they gained a much greater sense of empathy and understanding of each other's background. He grew up in a very stable household, there was always money for vacations and groceries. She grew up in a single-parent household where money was always tight. She had gotten acclimated to using credit cards, but in realizing he really didn't like that, she quickly paid off her balance and he by the same token gained some empathy for the difficulty with which she was raised as a with a single-parent household.

Jim Daly: That field level ticket at Wrigley might be 128 bucks. You might want to start there. Anyway, that's part of it is that communication. Let me go back for a moment to that opening comment I gave of a situation which was a true situation where this young man and woman were getting married. She had not disclosed her school loans of $250,000 for a four-year degree. Then they're married and it came forward.

How would you go about as the spouse that has no debt and that's never come up? This is an off-the-wall question for you, but what do you say at that point? You're already married. Now she's disclosing this. You say okay, there's only one option. We've got to create a financial plan that pays that down.

Matt Bell: Hopefully that's it, that they're both on that same page that we're in this together now so let's tackle this together. It may take time. It may mean dying to certain dreams or at least the timing of certain dreams, but we're in this together so let's get really committed to getting out from under.

The story I mentioned of the couple where she had $50,000 of non-mortgage debt, they saw the blessing of not buying a house when all their friends were buying a house. They saw the benefit of waiting even though they sometimes, and by the way, they were giving generously throughout that time. She told the story very candidly about how sometimes she felt like if we didn't give so much, we'd be able to get out of debt so much faster.

They saw God's blessing in it because ultimately when they did get out of debt, they realized that they would have bought a house at a very difficult time at the market high and today, given what happened eventually at that point, the market had declined quite a bit. They probably would have been underwater on a house if they bought then. Anyone else have that gift, buying at the high point and selling at the low point? I'm good at that.

Jim Daly: What about the common question about combined accounts? If we have combined accounts, how do I get them a birthday present? He's going to know about it. Or something like that, keeping separate accounts. Maybe both of them work and they just decide let's keep separate checking accounts rather than a joint checking account.

Matt Bell: I would strongly encourage joint accounts because that fosters transparency and teamwork and unity. In terms of buying a gift, you could do something as simple as withdraw some cash from an ATM so now there's no record that's readily apparent of where a gift was purchased. There can be a surprise doing something as simple as that.

Jim Daly: One of the problems is when people hear the word budget, you go ugh. Especially the budget meeting. Let's set one up and it's going to take a little bit of work, a little bit of pain. How do you reverse that attitude that couples might have at the early stage of dating or marriage?

Matt Bell: I think a budget is the single most powerful tool anybody can use to manage money well. We're stewards of God's resources as the Bible teaches us. So doesn't it just make sense if we're running a business or running an organization we're going to watch over the finances, we're going to have a plan, we're going to have a budget?

A family, a household, is a small business and so we're managing God's resources. We need a tool to manage that effectively. A lot of people think about a budget as something you go on like a diet or they think about it as being about less, it's about being obsessively spending as little as possible.

A budget is really about more. It's about having more knowledge of what's happening with your finances so that you can be more intentional in your use of money so that you ultimately have more for the things that really matter. People hearing that might have to take it on faith, but if they will just try a budget for about 30 days and start to get used to that habit, I think they will see so much good, so many blessings that come from it.

Jim Daly: Your book *Starting Strong* has many gold nuggets in it. The one that caught me as maybe the motherlode is this idea that normally we start with expenses, savings, and then giving and you say flip that. Start with giving. That's an amazing thought. I'd never thought of that. I did it the traditional way.

Matt Bell: It's very counter-cultural. I tell people in a variety of workshops, if you take nothing out of this workshop today, take this. The order with which you use money will make all the difference. With a married couple, it'll make all the difference in their finances, it'll make all the difference in their marriage.

Think about it. There's only a few things you can do with money. You can spend it, you can use it for debt payments, you can save it, you can invest it, you can give it away. That's the order that our culture teaches us in countless ways, both overt and subtle. We're taught to spend first. We're making $80,000 a year. That means you can live here, you can drive that, you can wear this brand of clothing.

When spending comes first, debt is just a given, I've found. If any money is left over, some might be saved, invested, and given away, but typically there isn't much left over. If we flip that, the Bible says honor the Lord with your wealth with the firstfruits, the first portion of all of thy increase, one version of the Bible says.

If we flip that equation on its head and we say we're going to honor the Lord with the first portion by giving to His work in this world, we're going to give first. Then we're going to save a portion because the Bible says in the house of the wise are stores of choice food and oil, but a foolish person devours all that they have. Then we're going to invest a portion for the future. Then we're going to decide, we're going to see how much we can afford to spend on housing and clothing and vacations and all the rest. Along the way, we're cautious to not become enslaved to creditors as the Bible warns. If people will do that, it sounds so simple, it's so practical, it's so effective, it's so biblical, and yet it's so rarely practiced. But if people will do that, it will serve them so well.

John Fuller: Is it 10%? Is it 5%? How do I determine that I'm going to start by giving first?

Matt Bell: That's a fair question because I think people need guardrails, they need some guidance about that. The Old Testament teaches very clearly a tithe or a tenth part, 10% of income. That's a starting point. In the New Testament, Matthew 23:23, Jesus seems to have affirmed the tithe.

Yet every example in the New Testament goes beyond it. You've got Zacchaeus giving half, you've got the widow giving all. That's what Jesus did with the laws is he changed them from letter of the law here into spirit of the law. I just think it makes sense to use that as a helpful biblical starting point.

Jim Daly: So many people I talk to, couples that recount their early years and they'll say often those were great years, but we didn't have a bed, we didn't have a couch, we didn't have a table. That was Jean and me. We had no furniture because I'd just gotten back from Japan a couple of years before. I said we can make a futon. We'll just throw blankets down until they're soft. Buy three or four blankets, that becomes your mattress, and then here we go. Part of that struggle is actually part of building your memory together, the sweetness of all that when it was tough.

Matt Bell: Absolutely. When you're starting out, that's why it's so important with all these things we're talking about to get these things right from the beginning because life is only going to get busier and maybe God's going to bless you more financially.

If we establish these priorities early in our marriage, we're going to serve the Lord. As for us and our household, we will serve you, Lord. We're going to base our decisions, our marriage, and our finances on the solid rock of God's word. We're going to use money in a way to love each other well, to strengthen our marriage, and to glorify God and to make the difference in the world that God intended when he brought us together in marriage.

Make these decisions early. You're mentioning the early many people experience that sort of early difficulties and financially in in their starting out years. John Rockefeller, one of the wealthiest people to ever live, said I never could have tithed on my first million dollars if I hadn't tithed on my first salary, which was $1.50 a week. I think there's an important point there. It's an important point for kids there, teaching kids about generosity, and an important point for our marriages. Let's start there and let's see how God blesses that over time. I feel very confident that he will.

Jim Daly: The most common thing, Matt, right here at the end, the most common thing I think is if you only knew the mountain I face. I can barely scrap by. How often is it that you look at somebody's finances in that consulting role and it's really perspective over everything? It just means you can't do certain things. Can you pay your rent or your mortgage? Can you buy groceries? Can you take care of transportation?

Beyond that, it kind of ends up being wants, right? I mean, there probably other things, you might have medical issues, I get all that and everything's unique, but what's that rhythm that you normally see with young couples where the advertising world has done a number on us and we think we need those shoes, we need that coffee, we need whatever and in fact you don't.

Matt Bell: I just encourage couples to live counter-cultural lives and to take their cues from the Bible. It will be a counter-cultural life. It'll be a life that isn't what your friends are necessarily doing or what you see on social media, but it will be a good life. Base your decisions on what the Bible teaches us about money.

Get those decisions right early on, make those convictions something that's really clear from the beginning of your marriage. Some couples do really, really have significant financial struggles and God's going to meet them there. There's compassion for that. We're not about legalism and legalistic adherence to certain teaching in the Bible, but I think if people will orient their use of money around what the Bible teaches and be convicted by and motivated by what it teaches and to make those distinctions between needs and wants because a lot of times wants can morph into needs very easily.

If we orient things financially and otherwise around a biblical approach over time, it will work well. It took me four and a half years to get out of debt. That took time. It wasn't just going to happen instantly and it may take time for couples to get into a better place financially. Be patient. Put honoring the Lord first, put loving each other well second, put making a difference in the world third, and start to orient your finances that way. It may not change radically overnight, but eventually you'll be on a very, very good path.

Jim Daly: That's a good word, Matt. Like I said, let's keep going and come back next time and continue the discussion. I think that would be a great thing to do, be a lot of help for young couples particularly, but good advice for everybody. We'll continue to talk about practical budgeting ideas next time and maybe go a little deeper in the practical side.

I encourage you to get a copy of Matt's great book *Starting Strong: Discovering the Good That Money Can Do Through Your Marriage*. We'd love to get that into your hands for a gift of any amount. If you can send just anything, we'll send it to you as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry. If you can't afford it because you're that strapped, this is something we need to gift to you. So call us, don't be embarrassed, we'll get it out to you to help you in your struggles with managing money.

John Fuller: We're here to help. Another great resource is our free online marriage assessment. It'll take you 10 or 15 minutes to fill this out. It's going to give you insights into your marriage journey, asking about key things including money. That free online marriage assessment is available through our website. Donate, take that assessment, get a copy of Matt's terrific book *Starting Strong*, all at our website and that's FocusontheFamily.com/broadcast or give us a call 800-A-FAMILY, 800-232-6459.

Thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back next time as we continue the conversation with Matt Bell and once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.

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