Focus on the Family

Matt Bell: It took me four and a half years to get out of debt. It took time. It wasn't just going to happen instantly. It may take time for couples to get into a better place financially. Be patient, put honoring the Lord first, put loving each other well second, put making a difference in the world third, and start to orient your finances that way. It may not change radically overnight, but eventually, you'll be on a very good path.

John Fuller: Well, that's Matt Bell, and he joins us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. We're going to be exploring some healthy habits for your marriage with regard to finances. Thanks for joining us. I'm John Fuller.

Jim Daly: John, money can be a touchy subject within marriage and within families. It probably ranks right up there, number one, two, or three, in the areas of marriage that couples really struggle with. So, it's a very important topic. We come to this probably every couple of months. We try to do a program to help people with their finances.

Let me rattle off some stats. Did you know about 40% of couples don't know their spouse's salary? Another one, 28% of couples admit to hiding significant purchases or debt from their spouse. I remember a story where a couple got married in their 20s. The woman had accumulated $250,000 of school debt for a French literature degree, and she had not disclosed it to her fiancé and then husband. That would be a rude awakening. There are practical, biblical approaches to money, and I think the main point is it's simply good to be reminded of how we should manage that money.

John Fuller: It's great to have Matt Bell back with us. He's been here before. Our listeners really resonate with his insights. He's a personal finance writer and speaker, and he's the managing editor at Sound Mind Investing. He and his wife, Jude, have three young adult children. Today, we're going to be talking about a brand-new book that he's written called *Starting Strong: Discovering the Good That Money Can Do Through Your Marriage*.

Jim Daly: Matt, welcome back to Focus on the Family. Good to have you.

Matt Bell: Thanks so much, Jim and John. It's a pleasure to be here.

Jim Daly: One of the most interesting things with financial folks—planners, helpers, writers on the topic—most of them come from a place of pain. You're not born necessarily, maybe you have an aptitude for accounting, but most of the people that I've interviewed come from a period of time where they were in the hole, and they had to figure it out. I really appreciate that. I think Dave Ramsey has that testimony. What's your prodigal story?

Matt Bell: Well, it very much is just that, the prodigal son. I inherited $60,000 from an uncle when I was in my mid-20s. I had no idea he planned to leave me any money. It was an incredible gift, an incredible surprise, and I really did have good intentions with that money when I received it.

I thought, "This is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to do something amazing career-wise." I loved to play golf and I loved to travel. I thought, "How can I turn all of that into a career?" So, I created a newsletter for people to take golf vacations. While it lasted, it was amazing. I got to play Pebble Beach. I got to play these great golf courses in Southern Spain. It was everything I dreamed it could be, except profitable.

Jim Daly: Wow, it sounds like you were ahead of the tech curve on there. You could have had a following, an app, people would have paid you money to go play golf.

Matt Bell: Well, the keyword was "could have." It didn't really work out all that well.

Jim Daly: You were probably 20 years ahead of that one, right? Let me ask you this, Matt. If you would have invested that $60,000 in your 20s, you would have had $2 million by the time you were 65. Did you realize that?

Matt Bell: Well, very painful to think about that, but you're exactly right.

Jim Daly: Compounding interest is quite amazing, isn't it?

Matt Bell: You sound like some of my friends that talk about that.

Jim Daly: I have talked to people that have put $5,000 for their kids who were just born, and they've shown me the models at average rates of growth from the stock market. You would expect about a million dollars when that one-year-old turns 65 without putting any more into it. It's amazing what it can turn into. But in your case, you took the $60,000 and transformed it into $20,000 in credit card debt.

Matt Bell: You've got to do a lot of things wrong to do that, and I was doing a lot of things wrong. But it was a huge wake-up call. It was very humbling to see that dream die, to see the guilt of squandering my uncle's hard-earned money and that sort of thing.

I moved home with my parents for six months, and I was really down for the first couple of months that I was out there. But God used it for great good. A friend of mine from college reached out and shared his faith with me. He had become a Christian a year after I graduated from college, and that was life-changing unto itself because it got me exploring matters of faith. Ultimately, I placed my faith in Christ, which would have been plenty to come out of that experience. But I also really got interested in learning about money, and I was amazed at how much the Bible says on this topic. So, I've been writing about it, speaking about it, and learning about it ever since then.

Jim Daly: Matt, it's a great insight. So, this was your valley. You were 25?

Matt Bell: Mid-20s.

Jim Daly: You hit this valley of being in debt $20,000. This friend of yours from college calls. He's just accepted Christ the year before. He starts sharing the Lord with you. You're not repelled by that; you're intrigued, partly because you're in a valley.

Matt Bell: Absolutely. I was humbled. I was so humbled by that experience and just distraught in trying to figure out what my life was going to be about. I thought I knew, but clearly, I didn't know. So, he was saying encouraging things like God has a plan for your life, and that was very intriguing to me.

I began reading the Bible. I began going to church. I began learning, and I was just a sponge for all things related to matters of faith. Then, I couldn't believe how much the Bible says about money. The first church I went to had a stewardship ministry. I got involved in that and just loved it. So, I loved seeing how God was using my pain, my values, my story to start to help others because I'm not a guy that's always gotten the money thing right. I can relate to a person who's had trouble with money.

Jim Daly: I so appreciate that. Speaking to those who are listening or watching, that's a starting place. When you're in that valley, so often that's where the Lord begins to turn your heart and open your ears and eyes to what is true. The spiritual things that are most important usually happen during those battles down in the gutter, not on the mountaintop. That comes later.

Let me ask you this in terms of scripture. Matthew 6:24 says you cannot serve both God and Mammon. It's a very famous area of scripture. How can we cultivate an attitude toward money that honors God? Let me add this too: in a culture that, for the most part, needs are taken care of in Western civilization—not all of it, but here in America, Canada, parts of Europe. So, how do we even get our hands around what the Lord would want for us and what we think is being poor or being rich?

Matt Bell: The Bible never says that money is a bad thing unto itself. The Bible doesn't say that money is the root of all evil. Some people think it does. It says the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. I think that's a really important distinction.

As we start to see that God's intentions for us are good, that He wants good things for us, and as we start to experience some of the worldly approaches to money and see that that's either not working or could be hollow if you do achieve some financial success, you start to see that the Bible says so many things about money—so many practical things about money. But God just wants us to put Him first. That's the thing. You can't serve both God and money. God needs to come first, and then money is used according to His principles for His purposes. That's the approach that tends to work really well.

Jim Daly: So, you and Jude, your wife, you're engaged. You're looking at the registry. Everybody's done that. Our registry may have been Target; I don't remember, but that's probably a true story. You're looking at China. That was nice.

Matt Bell: That was the source of our first disagreement.

Jim Daly: Tell me what happened with that and how it pointed to a little rub between the two of you.

Matt Bell: It's funny because we dated for six months, and then we got engaged. Things were going along really well, but then we started to register for gifts that we wanted other people to buy for us. It wasn't even our money we were spending; it was other people's money. But it was in that department store, walking these aisles of plates and cups and saucers, that we realized we have very different views of what these things should look like.

It sounds so trivial, right? But yet, it started to make me concerned. I'm very minimalist. I like my parents' way, and I think I've adopted their views of design and art and what looks good. That's what I was drawn to—very simple, maybe plain white, sturdy would be good; it's going to last a long time. But Jude grew up in a home where there was a set of dishes on display, very formal gold-rimmed dishes. Their everyday plates had a floral design. Floral really works against my instincts.

Jim Daly: Taking up way too much space.

Matt Bell: Yes. I started to think, "What other things in my life are going to have floral designs on them?" I started to be a little bit fearful. It's a funny anecdote, but really, it pointed to the need to have lots of conversations and try to come together. I think over the years, I've kind of moved toward her, and she's moved toward me on design issues, so we've come together. But that was the first example of, "Wow, we're really on different pages on something."

Jim Daly: That's great, Matt. Talking about arguments, according to one study from Fidelity, as many as 25% of couples—that's one in four—call money their most significant relationship challenge. So, that's a big number. Probably if you look across the arc of decades of marriage, it doesn't go down typically. It still rests and bubbles one, two, or three. What's happening with those couples?

Matt Bell: I think initially, when couples come together in marriage, what's happening there is that people don't enter marriage with a blank slate. We all bring something into our marriage. We bring stuff into our marriage. We bring how we saw our parents deal with money into our marriage, that we may not even realize the degree to which it still works on us, but we bring that. That's a big factor.

We bring our hopes and dreams around money that might be very different from our spouse. We bring certain early experiences we've had with money. In my case, I had a lot of debt, and that was a very traumatic experience. We bring very different temperaments into marriage, and these things don't naturally just fit together. So, that's a source of a lot of friction and a lot of having to work things out early in marriage. But then, as time goes on, I think it's a failure to communicate. People don't even know what their spouse earns for a living. We're just having a failure to communicate. So, just more communication around money and most things would probably help.

Jim Daly: Along those lines, Matt, I mentioned this couple that got engaged and married, and she had no disclosure about where she was at with her debt. You advocate full disclosure about all of that for couples that are getting married or have recently married. What's the importance of that?

Matt Bell: I advocate full financial disclosure before marriage and complete ongoing financial transparency after marriage. You don't want to be surprised when you get married at what you've actually married into with all this debt. I really believe the vision for marriage in the Bible is oneness. It's unity. So, if one spouse was really wealthy before marriage, now once you're married, you're both very wealthy. If one spouse had a lot of debt before marriage, when you come together in marriage, now you both have a lot of debt.

There's a great story that I have from my past where a couple that I know, Scott and Karen, she brought $50,000 of non-mortgage debt into their marriage. He called it a reverse dowry. He had a great attitude about the whole thing, though, because she would always say early in their marriage, "My debt, my debt, my debt is keeping us from doing this or that. My debt, I feel so bad about my debt." He would always correct her and say, "It's not your debt; it's our debt." I think that's a really bold act of leadership, an act of love, to take that perspective. So, I just want there to be no surprises. I want there to be full disclosure. Maybe not on your first date, but as things start to get serious in a relationship and it seems to be headed toward marriage, now let's understand: how much are we each earning? How much do we have in savings? Are there any traumatic stories in our background around money? And ongoingly, both parties should have access to all the finances.

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Jim Daly: Matt, what are some ways that couples can create that financial unity? What are some practical tools they can use?

Matt Bell: One of the things is simply having conversations about the past. How were you raised around money? That's really big. There was one couple that I tell the story of in the book where they were on some fun outing to Wrigley Field in Chicago. What can't be fun about Wrigley Field? You're just out at this great ballpark. But somehow, the topic of money came up, and it closed the conversation down because he found out that she was carrying a balance on a credit card, and that to him was an absolute no-no. It was a troubling, difficult conversation, but it also opened up the door to more conversations where they gained a much greater sense of empathy and understanding of each other's background.

He grew up in a very stable household; there was always money for vacations and groceries. She grew up in a single-parent household where money was always tight. She had gotten acclimated to using credit cards, but in realizing he really didn't like that, she quickly paid off her balance, and he, by the same token, gained some empathy for the difficulty with which she was raised with a single-parent household.

Jim Daly: That field level ticket at Wrigley might be 128 bucks; you might want to start there. But anyway, that's part of it, that communication. Let me go back for a moment to that opening comment I gave of a true situation where this young man and woman were getting married. She had not disclosed her school loans of $250,000 for a four-year degree. Then they're married, and that came forward. How would you go about as the spouse that has no debt? This is an off-the-wall question for you, but what do you say at that point? You're already married now; she's disclosing this.

Matt Bell: You say, "Okay, there's only one option. We've got to create a financial plan that pays that down." Hopefully, that's it—that they're both on that same page, that "we're in this together now, so let's tackle this together." It may take time. It may mean dying to certain dreams, or at least the timing of certain dreams, but "we're in this together, so let's get really committed to getting out from under."

The story I mentioned of the couple where she had $50,000 of non-mortgage debt, they saw the blessing of not buying a house when all their friends were buying a house. They saw the benefit of waiting. Even though they sometimes—and by the way, they were giving generously throughout that time. She told the story very candidly about how sometimes she felt like, "Boy, if we didn't give so much, we'd be able to get out of debt so much faster." But they saw God's blessing in it because ultimately, when they did get out of debt, they realized that they would have bought a house at a very difficult time or at the market high. Today, given what happened eventually at that point, the market had declined quite a bit. They probably would have been underwater on a house if they bought then.

Jim Daly: Anybody else have that gift? Buying at the high point and selling at the low point? I'm good at that. What about the common question about combined accounts? If we have combined accounts, how do I get him a birthday present? He's going to know about it, or something like that. Keeping separate accounts? Maybe both of them work, and they just decide, "Let's keep separate checking accounts rather than a joint checking account."

Matt Bell: I would strongly encourage joint accounts because that fosters transparency and teamwork and unity. But in terms of buying a gift, you could do something as simple as withdraw some cash from an ATM. Now there's no record that's readily apparent of where a gift was purchased, so there can be a surprise doing something as simple as that.

Jim Daly: That's good. Your book, *Starting Strong*, has many gold nuggets in it. The one that caught me as maybe the motherlode is this idea that normally we start with expenses, savings, and then giving, and you say flip that—start with giving. That's an amazing thought. I'd never thought of that. I did it the traditional way.

Matt Bell: It's very countercultural. I tell people in a variety of workshops, if you take nothing out of this workshop today, take this: the order with which you use money will make all the difference. With a married couple, it'll make all the difference in their finances; it'll make all the difference in their marriage.

Think about it. There are only a few things you can do with money. You can spend it, you can use it for debt payments, you can save it, you can invest it, you can give it away. That's the order that our culture teaches us in countless ways, both overt and subtle. We're taught to spend first. We're making $80,000 a year; that means you can live here, you can drive that, you can wear this brand of clothing. When spending comes first, debt is just a given, I've found. If any money's left over, some might be saved, invested, and given away, but typically there isn't much left over.

If we flip that—the Bible says, honor the Lord with your wealth, with the first fruits, the first portion of all of thy increase, one version of the Bible says. If we flip that equation on its head and we say we're going to honor the Lord with the first portion by giving to His work in this world—we're going to give first. Then we're going to save a portion, because the Bible says in the house of the wise are stores of choice food and oil, but a foolish person devours all that they have. Then we're going to invest a portion for the future, and then we're going to decide, we're going to see how much we can afford to spend on housing and clothing and vacations and all the rest. Along the way, we're cautious to not become enslaved to creditors, as the Bible warns. If people will do that—it sounds so simple, it's so practical, it's so effective, it's so biblical—and yet it's so rarely practiced. But if people will do that, it will serve them so well.

Jim Daly: So, is it 10%? Is it 5%? How do I determine that I'm going to start by giving first?

Matt Bell: That's a fair question because I think people need guardrails; they need some guidance about that. The Old Testament teaches very clearly a tithe or a tenth part, 10% of income. That's a starting point. In the New Testament, Matthew 23:23, Jesus seems to have affirmed the tithe, and yet every example in the New Testament goes beyond it. You've got Zacchaeus giving half; you've got the widow giving all. That's what Jesus did with the laws—He changed them from letter-of-the-law adherence to spirit-of-the-law adherence. I just think it makes sense to use that as a helpful biblical starting point.

Jim Daly: So many people I talk to, couples that recount their early years, they'll say often, "Those were great years, but we didn't have a bed. We didn't have a couch. We didn't have a table." That was Jean and I. We had no furniture because I had just gotten back from Japan a couple of years before. I said, "We can make a futon. We'll just throw blankets down until they're soft." Buy three or four blankets; that becomes your mattress. Then here we go. Part of that struggle is actually part of building your memory together, the sweetness of all that when it was tough.

Matt Bell: Absolutely. When you're starting out, that's why it's so important with all these things we're talking about to get these things right from the beginning because life is only going to get busier. Maybe God's going to bless you more financially. So, if we establish these priorities early in our marriage—"We're going to serve the Lord. As for us and our household, we will serve You, Lord." We're going to base our decisions, our marriage, and our finances on the solid rock of God's word. We're going to use money in a way to love each other well, to strengthen our marriage, and to glorify God and to make the difference in the world that God intended when He brought us together in marriage. Make these decisions early.

John Rockefeller, one of the wealthiest people to ever live, he said, "I never could have tithed on my first million dollars if I hadn't tithed on my first salary, which was $1.50 a week." I think there's an important point there. There's an important point for kids there, teaching kids about generosity, and an important point for our marriages. Let's start there, and let's see how God blesses that over time, and I feel very confident that He will.

Jim Daly: The most common thing, Matt, right here at the end—and we'll continue if you can stick with us—is, "If you only knew the mountain I face. I can barely scrap by." How often is it that you look at somebody's finances in that consulting role, and it's really perspective over everything? It just means you can't do certain things. Can you pay your rent or your mortgage? Can you buy groceries? Can you take care of transportation? Beyond that, it kind of ends up being wants, right? I mean, there are probably other things; you might have medical issues. I get all that, and everything's unique. But what's that rhythm that you normally see with young couples where the advertising world has done a number on us and we think we need those shoes, we need that coffee, we need whatever, and in fact, you don't?

Matt Bell: I just encourage couples to live countercultural lives and to take their cues from the Bible. It will be a countercultural life. It'll be a life that isn't what your friends are necessarily doing or what you see on social media, but it will be a good life. Base your decisions on what the Bible teaches us about money. Get those decisions right early on, make those convictions something that's really clear from the beginning of your marriage. Some couples do really, really have significant financial struggles, and God's going to meet them there. There's compassion for that. We're not about legalism and legalistic adherence to certain teaching in the Bible. But I think if people will orient their use of money around what the Bible teaches and be convicted by and motivated by what it teaches and to make those distinctions between needs and wants—because a lot of times wants can morph into needs very easily—but if we orient things financially and otherwise around a biblical approach over time, it will work well.

It took me four and a half years to get out of debt. That took time. It wasn't just going to happen instantly, and it may take time for couples to get into a better place financially. Be patient, put honoring the Lord first, put loving each other well second, put making a difference in the world third, and start to orient your finances that way. It may not change radically overnight, but eventually, you'll be on a very good path.

Jim Daly: That's a good word, Matt. Like I said, let's keep going and come back next time and continue the discussion. I think that'd be a great thing to do. It'd be a lot of help for young couples particularly, but good advice for everybody. So, we'll continue to talk about practical budgeting ideas next time and maybe go a little deeper in the practical side. Let me turn to the listener. I encourage you to get a copy of Matt's great book, *Starting Strong: Discovering the Good That Money Can Do Through Your Marriage*. We'd love to get that into your hands for a gift of any amount. If you can send just anything, we'll send it to you as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry. It's one of those programs, if you can't afford it because you're that strapped, this is something we need to gift to you. So, call us, we'll trust others will give a little more to offset that, but give us a call. Don't be embarrassed; we'll get it out to you to help you in your struggles with managing money.

John Fuller: We're here to help, and another great resource is our free online marriage assessment. It'll take you 10 or 15 minutes to fill this out. It's going to give you insights into your marriage journey, asking about key things including money. That free online marriage assessment is available through our website. So, donate, take that assessment, get a copy of Matt's terrific book, *Starting Strong*, all at our website, and that's FocusOnTheFamily.com/weekend. Or give us a call: 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY (800-232-6459). Thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller, inviting you back next time as we continue the conversation with Matt Bell and once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.

You're listening to Focus on the Family's Weekend Broadcast. We'll take a quick break and then return with the second half of this program for your family. Stay tuned.

ChatGPT and AI can offer you ideas and attempt to give you answers, but it can't listen with compassion, pray with you, or offer biblical wisdom. Real connection is what brings true hope. Focus on the Family offers a free confidential consultation with a Christian counselor to guide you and help you find hope with whatever you're facing. Go to FocusOnTheFamily.com/gethelp or call 1-800-A-FAMILY. That's 1-800, the letter A, the word FAMILY.

Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family. Let's resume now with the balance of today's program.

Matt Bell: Be thinking about what financial decision would express best my love for my spouse. How can I organize money in a way that would be good for our relationship? If they can organize their use of money around making the difference that God uniquely had in mind in bringing them together in marriage, that will set them on a very, very good path.

John Fuller: That's personal finance writer and speaker Matt Bell, and he joins us again today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller, and thanks for being here.

Jim Daly: Last time we had a great conversation about the early years of marriage and finances, and everybody went, "Yay!" Most people don't say that, but most people do need to pay attention to that, especially as you're engaged and deciding, "Okay, how do we do these things?" You've got to talk about money, and we covered that last time. If you missed the program, go hear it from the website, or you can get the smartphone app and have access to all the programs right there. So, we're going to continue the discussion today and get more practical advice on how couples can really tackle the issue of financial problems.

John Fuller: Matt is an expert in biblical money management. He's managing editor at Sound Mind Investing, which is a Christian company to help people invest successfully in order to care for their family and live generously. Today, we're going to explore more insights from his book called *Starting Strong: Discovering the Good That Money Can Do Through Your Marriage*.

Jim Daly: Matt, welcome back to Focus. Good to have you.

Matt Bell: Thanks so much. It's really great to be here.

Jim Daly: Again, people respond to these programs because I think it's where so many people are living. We're having some difficulty; we're not sure quite what to do. So, again, let me encourage you to get a hold of us, get a copy of the book, talk to one of our caring Christian counselors, whatever you need. Let's get into it, though. You and Jude were living in Chicago. Sorry, I don't want to tease all our Chicago listeners, but you had a hefty property tax bill. How did you manage that? If you're willing, what was the amount, and how did you dig out of it?

Matt Bell: It was $1,000 a month. This was not even a large house. It was pretty small.

Jim Daly: For how many months?

Matt Bell: Every month. It was a $12,000 annual property tax bill. When I first got that bill, I was shocked. I guess I just hadn't really done the homework of what we were getting ourselves into. It was huge. In fact, when I saw the bill the first time, I thought maybe one of our kids had been kidnapped and this was a ransom note. It just seemed crazy high.

But that was a wake-up call to me because we had to really scramble to come up with the money for the property tax bill. Ever since then, we've been taking one-twelfth of the annual amount of all of these what I like to call periodic bills or expenses—things you're spending money on sometime during the year but not necessarily every month—and we're setting it aside into savings so that when the bill comes due, the money is there.

This is a great thing to do for vacations, for Christmas gifts, for the annual home insurance bill, the semi-annual car insurance bill. If you can put aside one-twelfth of the annual amount of all such bills and expenses and then the money will be there when the bill comes due, and that's a beautiful thing.

Jim Daly: I agree. I mean, it takes a little discipline. I think Jean and I did the old envelope thing early on. We just put actual cash in envelopes, and then we did start stealing from here or there. But as long as it works, right? You're not going over anything. It's right there for you to see and to feel and to touch. But part of that was paying off those semi-annual or annual payments regularly, just tuck it in that envelope and then go turn it into the checking account and write the check for it.

Matt Bell: It was one of the most freeing things that we did—this idea of setting aside one-twelfth of the annual amount of all these periodic bills and expenses. If you take a vacation and then you figure out how to pay for it afterwards, that really puts a damper on the vacation. But if you go on a vacation and you've been saving for it month by month, then you have fun. It's not a burden: "How am I going to pay this off?"

Jim Daly: In that regard with a house, it's really important for younger couples particularly—that's a great goal, and that house becomes a great asset for you. If you hit something and you need to borrow against it, that can be something you can do. You don't want to do that, but again, your house and being owned is a great asset. The point I'm making there is states where the state tax is high, the real estate tax is high like you said, $12,000 a year. You have to calculate that before you buy because it might be wise to continue to rent until you can accommodate a $12,000 annual tax payment.

Matt Bell: For sure. There are a lot of expenses people don't realize when buying a house. For sure you should account for the taxes and the upkeep on the house. That's a really big one. When I look at people's budgets, I see time and time again either no money or not enough money set aside for both home repairs and maintenance and also for cars as well. So, that can be a real wake-up call for people when they see just how much it costs. Typically, I recommend 1.5% of the purchase price. So, you've got a $400,000 house, that's $6,000 a year for maintenance and repair, so that's $500 a month. That sounds like a lot of money that maybe people weren't planning for, but that would be the better part of wisdom to purchase a house where you can do that.

Jim Daly: For an RV trailer or a boat, you can quadruple that amount. Those things—Jean and I love camping, so we progressed. We did tents, and then we did eventually a fifth wheel. I was shocked at the upkeep. I'm sure I spent as much on maintenance as I did on buying the thing because I got a screaming deal on it. But man, it was a lot. It was always $600 to $1,000 to replace the converter, tires, chassis, suspension. I think they do this on purpose—they build those things to 80% of what's required, then you've got to spend the extra 20% to make sure it's roadworthy. What's that great saying about boats? Your best two days are the day you buy and the day you sell. But sometimes it's exciting for young couples and they overreach and do something like that and don't count those costs, and you really need to.

Matt Bell: Really important to do that work up front before you get to the showroom. Talk to people who have owned it. That's the best thing. There's a great book on decision-making out there that is this funny look throughout the book about how people tend to make bad decisions. At the end of the book, the advice—he netted out the advice is exactly what you just said: talk to other people who've made that decision and see how that worked out for them and what would they have done differently.

Jim Daly: This idea just struck me, but Jean and I have a will; I hope everybody has a will as well. But one of the things we talked about is if we can afford to do those things. Because camping was so big for our family for Trent and Troy growing up. They love it. They have said many times those were the best experiences of our family. So, as you get older and your kids get married and they have kids, what a wonderful thing if you can afford it—why not do that for your young adult children with your grandkids and maybe spring for that and take care of that so they can have those experiences if they can't afford it? Would that be a good way to spend some money perhaps, without spoiling them?

Matt Bell: Absolutely. As long as you can afford it. If you've got the wherewithal to set aside a certain amount of money for vacations, that tends to be the most satisfying way to spend money is having experiences together. In our household, I drive an older car by choice. I would rather—and that's an important skill is to learn to make trade-offs based on what's most important. I love to travel. I love the memories we've made as a family when we've traveled and had adventures together. So, I will happily drive an older car in order to make that happen.

Jim Daly: You recommend allocating 15% of our income into savings and investment. 15% seems reasonable. A lot of companies give matching opportunities to a certain percentage like 5, 6, 7%, 10%. So, in looking at that, when you're kind of lean, what do you do as a young couple?

Matt Bell: Well, again, it starts with that orientation of the five things you can do with money. We step back from the circumstances where there's a lot of emotion and a lot of, "We can't possibly make this happen" sort of thing, and we say we are committed to giving the first portion to the Lord's work in the world. We're going to save and invest the next portions, and then we're going to spend. So, it starts with stepping back and kind of creating this idealistic plan and then stepping into it. You might have to start with saving less, saving 5% of income, but be committed to growing that over time. But that 15% threshold, which is saving and investing—build that emergency fund first, build that big-ticket item replacement fund as I talk about in the book. Money you allocate for these periodic bills and expenses, that isn't extra savings. That isn't part of the 15%. That should just be on your cash flow plan. You've got a $1,200 insurance bill, that's $100 a month, so that's already there. But the 15% will help you build a sufficient emergency fund, and then once that's built, you can start to invest that money.

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Jim Daly: Matt, you describe our spending types. Now we're getting into the nitty-gritty. This goes back to those common labels from psychology: the choleric, the sanguine, the phlegmatic, and then melancholy. Let's hit those. The choleric: what is our financial connection to that personality type?

Matt Bell: And the fact is there are financial connections to each one of these temperaments, which I think is really fascinating. I think temperaments are a fascinating topic unto themselves. If you do that as a couple, you discover how God has uniquely wired you, and it's just as if somebody's been watching you all of your life and they know things about you that you didn't realize other people knew. So, it's a fascinating discovery that you can do together.

But the choleric is the type A, hard-charging, get it done, very disciplined sort of person. Financially, they can be really good at pursuing goals and tackling goals. So, if you've got a lot of debt and you're going to set a choleric on the path of getting out of debt, they will get it done. Every temperament type has certain financial strengths and certain financial weaknesses. So, the choleric can be so focused on getting things done that in a marriage relationship, they can tend to run ahead of a spouse sometimes and maybe make investments without talking about them or make certain purchases without discussions. So, they need to slow down a little bit and make sure they're including their spouse.

Jim Daly: Okay, let's move to sanguine.

Matt Bell: The sanguine is the life of the party, outgoing, extroverted sort of person. Everybody loves to be around the sanguine. On the strength side, financially, sanguines tend to be very generous. They tend to be very generous in giving to the Lord's work, generous in giving gifts. They really take a lot of fun and value out of that. On the downside financially, they tend to not take to the use of a budget. That's too analytical.

Jim Daly: So, that is a flashpoint obviously in the marriage.

Matt Bell: It can be, especially if people with two very different temperaments, which is very common, come together in marriage. That can be. So, it's really helpful to understand that. Someone who's a melancholy temperament type really takes to the use of a budget. Marry someone with a sanguine temperament type who really doesn't take to the use of a budget, well, it'd be the better part of wisdom to have the melancholy person take care of the budget, talk about it, lead the discussions about it. Both need to be involved in setting goals and that sort of thing, but don't expect the sanguine to suddenly become an accountant. It's not going to happen.

Jim Daly: Okay, and then what about phlegmatic? What about those folks?

Matt Bell: So, the phlegmatic temperament, this tends to be the most likable temperament of all four. They're very likable, they're very peaceable, they're very easygoing and kind of steady as you go. Employers love to have people with a phlegmatic temperament on the payroll because they will show up on time and they will get the job done. They're kind of what the Bible might describe as the steady plodders out there. On the downside, this is both a positive and a negative wrapped in one: they tend to be savers. So, it can be a good thing to save money, but they can tend to be kind of cheap as well. So, letting go of that money that they've saved can be a challenge for them.

Jim Daly: Are there good matchups here? Is this part of the premarital counseling? "Oh, you're choleric; well, you should be up with a phlegmatic." I'm not sure that that's even possible. Well, let me ask it that way. You can probably have a different approach even though that may be your core. That's what we would say with marriage counseling. These are your base operating systems, but you can learn new operating systems.

Matt Bell: You can learn to manage it. Your temperament is not going to change over your lifetime, but you can learn to manage your temperament. I'm my primary is choleric, and so I can tend—I'm very project-oriented. I've had to learn, and believe me, I'm still learning: people first, then projects. I've had to really learn that and don't run over people in pursuit of getting a project done. So, we can learn to manage these things, but our temperament, our core tendencies typically don't change.

Jim Daly: What do you think you are, John?

John Fuller: I don't know. I think it's probably a combo, but I think I definitely have that sanguine thing. But I can be pretty pragmatic, too.

Matt Bell: We each have a primary and a secondary, and there may be elements of the other two in our makeup as well. But we typically have a primary and a secondary, and they can show up in different circumstances sometimes. Maybe a high-stress situation you're more one than the other. Maybe in a purchase decision you're more one than the other. So, it's a fascinating—you're not just going to get this done in one sitting. You're going to discover this over time.

Jim Daly: You also speak to the delusions of "Dinkhood." So, you've got to remind us: what does "Dinkdom" mean, and then what are those delusions of Dinkhood?

Matt Bell: So, Dink is "Double Income No Kids." When couples come together, typically today both are working, and so it's very easy to start to envision the sort of life you could live with these two incomes combined. We just need one place to live, but we've got these two incomes, and you can start to dream of this really big life.

Jim Daly: Or you set patterns of expense that won't be sustainable once you have additional expenses coming into the home, like kids.

Matt Bell: That's right. I remember sitting across the table from a couple where they had a big life going. They had a very nice house that required a hefty portion of both of their big incomes. They had two leased vehicles. They had nights on the town, and then one of them lost their job. Now there's stress, now there's even some anger between them about the loss of the job and what that means to their lifestyle.

So, I really encourage couples to go slow with a house purchase decision. Make sure that it's something you can truly afford. I've got certain principles I've come to over time. I'm just geeky enough to have run the numbers on a lot of different size households and different income levels—choleric with a secondary of melancholy, Mr. Numbers.

So, 25% of monthly gross income for the combination of mortgage, taxes, and insurance is pretty much the max that I think a couple can spend on housing. All the better if it's more like 20%. And here's the kicker: I really encourage people to try to do that on one income. People say, "What? That's impossible." But I'll tell you, the best financial advice that Jude and I got when we were getting married is to base your lifestyle and major purchase decisions on one income.

So, that's what we did. When we rented for the first 10 months and then we bought a condo, the condo we could afford on my income alone. We wanted, we both had a vision of Jude being able to stay home with kids if God blessed us in that way, and so we were working toward that. But even if a couple doesn't have kids, if you're building your lifestyle on two incomes, it's a big problem and a big stress point if one of them loses their job. So, buy a house you can afford on one income and set your lifestyle accordingly.

Jim Daly: Let me ask you—and this is serious and I think it would have popped up in some young people's minds today—this fear that really exists in 20-, 30-somethings about having children because they're so expensive, and they get bombarded with that. "You're going to spend $250,000"—I don't know what the latest number is, but that was a number I saw from somebody—the average amount a couple will spend 0 to 18 on a child. And they get panicked: "Where's that money coming from?" But again, even if that's accurate, that's over 18 years. Speak to that fear that is gripping so many young couples right now that more and more are deciding not to have children, which is antithetical to the Lord's blessing for us, I believe.

Matt Bell: Totally agree. And what you just said makes all the sense in the world—that you see these big numbers, but if you amortize that over time, it becomes a much smaller number. And in a really practical way, I tell couples, newly married couples, because that often comes up—how much will kids cost and how can we prepare for that? But if you think about what you're spending money on now as a couple without kids, you're spending money on entertainment and certain types of vacations and certain other things. Those expenses will tend to change when you have kids. Kids, when they're really young, they don't have a lot of needs. You don't need to go on some fancy vacation, and they'll be really happy with certain very simple things. Your money will get freed up in one area to be available for the next area. So, in a really practical sense, you can make it work that way.

But I think in a bigger-picture sense, I can just speak from my own personal experience that kids—it's the blessing. This is who's going to be with you when you're on your deathbed. This is what life is about. It's not about cars and boats and houses. It's about the people that you bring into the world and teach them how to be lovely, hopefully, God-following people. That's where I get my greatest reward is through my boys. My marriage with Jude and our kids, those are the greatest joys, the greatest, most meaningful parts of life is our family. So, don't miss that. Don't read a headline about the cost of kids and then miss that. So many regrets.

I remember a time when money was especially tight. I was self-employed; I was writing and speaking, and there were a couple of events I did that then didn't end up getting paid for. I remember being very stressed about it, and I remember getting up in the middle of the night and going and looking in on our kids and I just thought, "This is what it's about. The bills will get paid, things will work their way out, but don't miss the blessing that family is. Don't miss the blessing that kids are." They're a ton of work; you'll be stressed at times, you'll be worried at times, and there's nothing greater. There's no greater gift than family.

The spirit of fear is not from God. Things do get met; those needs get met somehow. Money shouldn't rule. One of the couples I interviewed, this great couple, I first met them when they were in their 20s and just out of college and both working in full-time ministry. They were just this cool, fun couple to get to know, really doing things right from the very beginning. They thought they couldn't tithe, but they used a budget, a really practical tool, and found that they could.

Now I caught up with them 15 years later. They've got three kids; one is severely disabled. You think: young kids, that's a stressful time of life unto itself, but you throw into the mix a severely disabled child, they would have every reason to be stressed. When I reconnected with them, they were so at peace; it was remarkable. Money isn't the only factor that leads to that peace. But for them financially, understanding each other's temperaments enabled them to, as they said, "bend toward each other" to build greater unity in their marriage.

They also said that, "We know where our money's going and what's happening financially because we're using this crazy tool that people don't like called a budget that turns out to be very effective." But money doesn't rule. That's a value we've established in our lives—that if we go to a restaurant, we meet a server who clearly has some need, and it's not in our budget to bless them with some extra tip, we're going to bless them with that extra tip.

Money doesn't rule. We manage money, we're good stewards with money, but money doesn't rule. Ron Blue, who wrote the first biblical money management book I ever read called *Master Your Money*, he said, "Don't plan God out of your finances." We're called to be planners—the plans of the diligent lead to profit as surely as haste leads to poverty—but don't plan God out of your finances. You can plan and plan and organize and envision, but ultimately, you've got to leave room for the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Jim Daly: Well, Matt, I can clearly see where this is connected with your emotions. I love it because I think right at the end here you have really probably done your most effective teaching for us in terms of perspective and thought and how to put it in the right order, and it comes right from your heart.

Matt Bell: Well, you know, Jim, I heard a quote recently that's been very impactful, and that quote simply says: you always know when you're doing something for the first time; you rarely know when you're doing something for the last time. We can't take life for granted, and we can't take the people that we love for granted.

So, my encouragement to couples is to treat life like the gift that it is. And if they will orient their money and their marriage around glorifying God as best they can, around loving each other well, use money—be thinking about what financial decision would express best my love for my spouse. How can I organize money in a way that would be good for our relationship? If they can organize their use of money around making the difference that God uniquely had in mind in bringing them together in marriage, that will set them on a very, very good path.

Jim Daly: Whoo, what a place to end. Matt, you've brought the wood, as we say in baseball lingo. Thank you for investing the time to do the research to create this book and to help young couples, but all couples really, better understand how to put money in its place and to do it well. So, thank you for being with us.

Matt Bell: Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity.

Jim Daly: Let me turn to the listener. I want to encourage you to get a copy of this terrific resource, *Starting Strong: Discovering the Good That Money Can Do in Your Marriage*. Matt's book is packed with great insights for couples; it even includes specific recommendations for things like savings accounts and investments that we weren't able to cover in detail today. When you give a donation of any amount to Focus on the Family, we'll send you a copy of Matt's book to say thank you for partnering with us in the ministry. If you can't afford it, get in touch with us and we'll get it to you and trust others will cover the cost of that.

Let me give you an example of how every dollar counts. We're counting on contributors to help us strengthen marriages, equip parents, save pre-born babies, and share the hope of the gospel. Those are kind of the core themes at Focus on the Family. When you contribute to Focus on the Family, you're providing help to parents and grandparents like Susan from California, who wrote in to tell us this:

"My husband and I were having financial problems early in our marriage, and Focus on the Family provided resources and information to help us learn to manage our money. Then, when my youngest daughter was having a crisis pregnancy, I had her call Focus on the Family. Someone at the end of the line said a lot of the right words to help her to know that abortion was not the answer. She ended up having our grandson, marrying his father, and having the best life ever. Our grandson is our bundle of love and joy, now two years old. Life is always the best choice—no regrets. Thank you for being at the end of the phone when she called."

Whoo, that's gettin' me choked up. Take it away, John.

John Fuller: That's why Focus on the Family is here, and that's why we need to hear from you to continue on the ministry. So, donate today and make a difference in people's lives and get a copy of this great book by Matt Bell called *Starting Strong*. All the resources that we have for you are available when you call 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY (800-232-6459), or visit FocusOnTheFamily.com/weekend. Thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller, inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.