Every Man’s Battle Podcast

Announcer: Welcome to the Every Man's Battle podcast, brought to you by New Life Ministries. In this podcast, you'll hear honest conversations and encouragement for living a life of sexual integrity. In every episode, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist JJ West and Licensed Professional Counselor Doug Barns break the silence around sexual integrity struggles that millions of men face but rarely discuss openly. Each episode offers practical strategies and genuine hope to dissolve the shame and isolation that keeps men trapped in destructive cycles. Let's get to today's episode.

JJ West: Hey everybody, welcome back to the Every Man's Battle podcast. I'm JJ West, sitting here with Doug Barns. Today, we are going to be covering the topic: Overcoming Acting In. I can't wait to dive in. Doug, great to be with you again. Happy podcast day.

Doug Barns: Thank you again. We get to do it again. It's fantastic. When we talk about overcoming acting in, it's probably helpful for us to start with a definition of what we even mean by the phrase acting in, because not everybody is already going to have knowledge of that concept.

JJ West: Most of us, I think, are pretty familiar with acting out. We understand acting out to be these behaviors that we engage in as a way to escape. Typically, we're trying to escape shame messages, negative emotions, that sort of thing. We're basically externalizing our pain in our behaviors. Most of the time for us, that's going to be sexual acting out, but other people might express it as anger, lying, drinking, drug use, or gambling. There are lots of different risky choices that are associated with acting out.

Doug Barns: Acting in, interestingly enough, is also about pain, but it's about internalizing our pain. So acting out, I'm externalizing the pain through these risky behaviors, these risky choices. But acting in, I'm internalizing pain. The way I do that is I shut down. I withdraw. I isolate.

And not only am I turning away from others—stonewalling, defensiveness, blame-shifting, all of that kind of stuff—I'm also turning against myself. There's this belief that I am, again, worthless, unlovable, unforgivable, and so I'm going inward with my pain. I'm internalizing my pain. I'm doing it in the same way; I'm using it as a way to escape. Most of the time, though, when I'm acting in, it's because I'm trying to protect myself. There's some pain that's out there or perceived pain or danger, and I'm trying to avoid that risk.

JJ West: Some of these are learned. You and I both know that we have guys at EMB and in our practices, and we hear this all the time where guys will say, "I don't feel like I'm doing that on purpose. I don't feel any pain when I'm not wanting to discuss a hard conversation with my spouse or coworker. I'm just terrified."

Doug Barns: It wasn't like I set out like, "Okay, well later today, she's probably going to ask me that question and I'm going to shut down, or I'm going to suddenly need to go work in the garage." It seems to happen automatically.

I've noticed in the recent few years that sometimes issues that we struggle with internally get pathologized. In other words, it's a head thing or it's a medical thing or it's something inside of me. Yeah, there are those anomaly cases out on the bell curve. I get that. But when we're talking about acting in, we're talking about behaviors that we've learned.

The way I try to talk through this with my guys and couples is that I am going inward to myself and I'm pushing you away relationally. Acting out is behavioral because that's what everybody sees—the pornography, the strip clubs, the affairs, and all that. That's behavioral. This is more relational. When I am acting in, I'm pushing you away. I'm going into myself through lying, hiding, blaming, shaming, dodging, stonewalling. I'm keeping to myself, and I may not even know I'm doing it. I'll own it. I sometimes don't even know I'm doing it until I've done it and I see this reaction and go, "Oh, okay. Wow. I just did it again."

JJ West: Sometimes it gets pathologized, meaning that there's some kind of medical condition that I need to go get treatment for or I need to go see a doctor for, or I need to live with the rest of my life and it'll just never change. I'm doomed.

I want to be, and hopefully we're on the same page here, where we think of this as awareness. Awareness is the key to change. Am I aware of how I'm approaching my wife, girlfriend, significant other, coworkers, coaches, counselors, whoever? Am I aware of when I feel like I'm in danger? I may not be aware that I'm in danger, and I now am reverting back to some behaviors I've done for a lot of my life. I just didn't know that's what this was called. It's really pushing you away relationally so I can stay safe inside of me, which is different than personalities. If I'm shy, if I'm an introvert, if I'm an extrovert, it doesn't matter. But if I'm keeping to myself because something inside of me is happening and I see that you don't know because you can't read my mind—we're not mind readers—I walk away and go, "What just happened?" because I'm not really sure, and the person I'm talking to, they're scratching their head saying the same thing. "You're not talking to me. You're avoiding my conversation. You're going out to mow the yard when we need to have a conversation about what's going on with us."

Doug Barns: It ties back to an episode we did in season two on managing long-term recovery. We talked about the significance of asking other people what it is like to be in relationship with me. I think that's part of what brings it out of that unconscious, "I'm unaware it's happening and I only notice after the fact."

If I start having conversations with the important people in my life, whether that's my spouse, my children, my close buddies in my accountability group, a small group at church, whatever it is, and I start asking people, "Hey, would you mind sharing with me what it is like to be in relationship with me? Do I feel open? Do I seem like I'm willing to share and be vulnerable? Do I seem closed off to you?" If we start asking that question, it starts to unpack and we become more aware, which is the key to growth.

JJ West: That's the hope, because what we're talking about is a habit. What are the components of a habit? It is automatic and unconscious, things we do comfortably and skillfully. I have to bring it from the unconscious to the conscious in order for it not to be automatic. The only way I do that is through awareness in relationship. I can't do that on my own. I can't go and look in the mirror and say, "Self, talk to me. What are you doing?" We need that community, and so many things we talk about in recovery come back to community.

Doug Barns: Jesus. Did he ever act in? I can't recall in scripture where that's ever a piece where his disciples are asking him questions and he's going, "I don't know," or "Why are you asking such a stupid question? I'm tired of you." He did, however, spend time alone, which is not the same as acting in. One was purposeful. One was exactly right. There is a need for us to spend time by ourselves. There's a need for us to spend time with God. Solitude is a spiritual discipline as opposed to when I isolate. When I'm acting in, it's to push you away. I'm trying to protect myself by keeping you at arm's length.

JJ West: I'm uncomfortable. This might get loud. This might get tense. Your facial expression scares me. So I'm going to protect myself and I will slowly move back from you. I will hide, avoid, blame-shift, dodge, gaslight. As opposed to Jesus, who when he withdrew into solitude, it was to connect with the Father and to connect with his own heart. So it was not to hide or isolate, but to connect. He was very intentional about doing that.

I love that example that when we withdraw—and this is especially for those who are watching or who are listening who are used to withdrawing from those hard conversations—sit with that for a minute and say, "What's going on with me? What's going on internally with me?" because I'm being perceived one way, but I think I'm doing another thing. That goes back to being in community of how you perceive me. When I walk away from a conversation, how do you perceive me in that way? That's a good point to bring out.

Doug Barns: It goes back to as well when we're talking about acting out. We ask guys to do that internal work. When you're wanting to act out, when you're feeling the pull to act out, what's going on inside of me? Where have I felt incompetent, insignificant, or impotent that may be driving this behavior? We do the same thing when we're acting in. We do that inner dive to say, "What's happening with me? Do I feel vulnerable right now? Do I feel at risk right now? Do I feel attacked right now? Do I feel incompetent, insignificant?" And that's causing me to want to retreat, causing me to want to isolate, causing me to want to gaslight or blame-shift. What's the negative narrative I'm saying to myself? "I'm inadequate. I'll never measure up. I can't get this right. Why am I here? You're mad at me. You're going to leave me. You hate me. You're going to divorce me or detach from me in some way," and that's too scary for me.

JJ West: What we've surmised is acting in and acting out are two sides of the same coin. Why are they two sides of the same coin? Because we're led there by life situations and the way that we have a tendency to respond or react to those life situations. Instead of acting out, which are the behaviors everyone sees and takes more behavioral energy to do, acting in comes in when I feel like I am being attacked in a way that I can't share with you. That's that lack of vulnerability. I'm pushing you away, but the same process is going on inside of me.

Doug Barns: They're both attempting to manage overwhelming feelings. They do it in different ways, but whether I'm choosing to act out or act in, I'm choosing to try and manage these overwhelming feelings of shame or guilt or incompetence or inadequacy.

JJ West: How many times do we hear, self-included, "I'm not feeling anything"? We hear that at the intensive. We hear that in our offices. "Well, I don't—I'm not feeling anything." That goes back to other episodes we've done on getting in touch with God, self, and others. This is getting in touch with ourself. How do we be aware of and out in front of those situations like with our spouses, girlfriends, colleagues, employers, whoever we're with? Be aware of what's going on with me.

Doug Barns: It's kind of a stair step. If I'm aware of me, now I can look at how I'm aware of what's going on inside of me in the moment that I'm there, because all life situations have a response or reaction. Because I'm not aware of it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. They are going on. If I'm not aware of it, it's going to be reaction rather than a response. We're trying to pull back from our reactions to being self-aware and to respond to the stimulus that's in front of me in healthy ways so I don't get driven to my acting in or acting out behaviors. I stay present.

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JJ West: Okay, so we've listed some of the more obvious ones: withdrawal, isolation, avoiding conversations. Those are kind of the low-hanging fruit. Those are pretty easy. But what are some other examples of acting in to help the audience identify, "Oh, I do that, and I do that as a way to protect myself and push others away"?

Doug Barns: Speaking of low-hanging fruit, work. Work is a great one. So often when we stop our acting out behavior, what is one of the bigger substitutes? I hear this so often. I do it because we're supposed to be connecting, right? This is a connection issue. It's intimacy. But what do so many people do? They substitute all that time with work. They're going back to something that's culturally and socially productive. I make more money. I spend more time being productive. I bring home more bacon.

But do I take the time to go inward and say, "What am I using with these four or five or 30 or however many hours a week that I used to spend in my acting out behavior? How am I using that in a way that's now for my recovery rather than pulling me away from my recovery?" Our relationships are included in that recovery. A big part of my recovery is being in that safety of community and that safety of intimate, relationally driven conversation.

So many of us, I included, didn't know how to do that. I didn't know how to be intimate. So it's learning how to—what is the language of intimacy? Maybe that's another podcast. But learning how to get outside of just distracting myself. Work is the biggest one. Church activities. My need to control. Am I aware of my need to control people, places, and things because it makes me feel calm, peaceful, Zen? It's using things around me so that I can be calm on the inside. When I'm not calm on the inside, that's where I become more chaotic. I go back to my coping mechanisms that I've learned mostly from childhood, but not all. So many of these things are rooted in the training we get, relational training we get when we're growing up. So much of it comes from our families of origin.

JJ West: So many of us talk about, "Well, when I got married, well, she..." or in the opposite, "Well, he does..." Let's talk about where—can we go back and talk about that in a family situation, your pattern of responding to that kind of behavior, and even your tendency to look for that?

Doug Barns: What's interesting to me is that I think a lot of people will automatically view acting in as some of those things like withdraw, isolate, get quiet, don't want to talk, I'm off in the garage working on something, or I'm working crazy hours at work and never available. That's obvious. But what is maybe a little less obvious is I get critical. I start blame-shifting. I pick fights. All of those things can be acting in behaviors as well because this is the way I push you away by being critical of you. Or the way I push you away is I get really defensive if you're asking questions. I am not willing to even engage in heart-to-heart stuff. So it can be super quiet and hiding, or it can be bombastic and loud, but it's all that same pushing you—I'm keeping you out relationally to keep me safe inside.

JJ West: Sometimes the outward expression of anger—it looks like anger. He has an anger issue. Well, that may be true. However, how often can that be misunderstood as I'm acting in? I'm really wanting to push you away from me because this is getting too uncomfortable for me. I use my anger to shut you down, to drive you away, to upset you, to say ugly things to you so you will leave me alone, where now things in my internal being can settle down. But it's getting perceived as he's always getting angry. Why is he so angry?

Doug Barns: To take it even a step further, again, we may not be aware that we're doing this, but sometimes we do that because we know if I get angry, I know how you're going to respond to my anger. Because I know that, I feel more comfortable because we're following a familiar script. I know what's expected. I know what's going to happen afterwards, and I'm not left in this guesswork stage of, "Oh gosh, what's the right answer? What are you looking for? What do you need?" But I do that. If I pick a fight with you, again, not necessarily consciously, but if I pick a fight with you, that's familiar territory because you'll be upset and you'll pull away. Now I feel completely justified in going and working in the garage. Exactly. Now I can go drop that transmission and I'm good.

JJ West: One of the things that I noticed in my life was I got good at perfecting that. I recognized when I do A, she will do B. I learned to recognize that, and especially through my life, I learned how to manipulate others by doing that. I didn't know that's what I was doing, but as I'm looking back and going, "Oh my gosh, I was doing this to avoid this other conversation or behavior that I was really needing to be in." But I was using that as a tool of pushing you away relationally so that I would feel like, "Okay, now I can go do my thing."

Doug Barns: Community brought that awareness about for me. When I'm talking to other clinicians, other facilitators, other guys in my group, as I'm listening to them, I'm actually listening for things to take back with me. It started making sense to me. The more I heard it, the more it's like, "Wow, I do that." It didn't look like that before because I read it in my own personal script one way. "You pissed me off, so I would do this." But then again, it made sense to me that if I was doing that on purpose, wow, that's just wrong. But I didn't know that's what I was doing. People would tell me, and I'd go, "No, no, you're crazy. That's not me. I'm not doing that." Now looking back, I'm going, "Yep, I did."

I mean, talk about amends. Now I'm on the lookout for that. So when I'm uncomfortable, when I'm starting to get anxious, when I'm starting to get overwhelmed and chaotic, and my voice gets a little bit louder—my wife would say something different—but as my voice gets louder and I get more animated and I get more intense, that's my check engine light. That says, "Hey, something's going on in you. It's time to pull over, turn the engine off, and see what's happening." That's my indicator that I am getting ready to go to that behavior. It is so scary for me because I hate myself when I do that, knowing the damage I'm about to do. And so I pull back.

JJ West: To that point, I know we shared in previous podcasts how with, when we're talking about recovery in terms of acting out behavior, early on in recovery, we act out, something happens, we're triggered, we act out, and after the fact, we go, "Oh man, that happened. Repentance, recommitment to recovery." As we move through recovery, we start noticing it as it's happening, and then eventually we want to get to a place that we notice we can see it on the horizon. "Oh, that's likely to happen. I'm likely to be triggered by such and such thing, so I want to be prepared."

We do the same thing with acting in. Early on in recovery, I'm going to notice after the fact. "Oh, I blew my top to push you away. I'm so sorry. We make amends, recommitment to recovery." Then after a while, I start noticing as it's happening. "Oh, my voice is getting louder. Oh, I'm getting more animated. Oh, I'm calling you names. I'm thinking uncharitably about you." I'm starting to notice as it's happening. "Oh gosh, it's happening. I'm sorry. I don't want to—can we try this again? I want to connect with you. That's what's important." And then eventually we get to a place where I see it on the horizon.

I've just had a lousy day. I got the nastygram from the boss. "I can't believe you made that presentation. I'm not sure why we keep you on this team." We get fired by a client. Somebody cuts us off in traffic. Whatever. I'm already primed. Life isn't fair. Everybody's picking on me. Nobody loves me. Nobody cares. I'm likely to walk in the door and be encountered by something amiss. When that happens, my tendency would be then to isolate, to withdraw, to act in, or to get angry and act in. So I'm seeing it on the horizon. I don't want to have that response. So I'm going to connect with self. I'm going to connect with God. "God, help me to have a different response." And then as I walk in, okay, I'm spent, but I don't want to—I don't want to withdraw. I don't want to act in.

Doug Barns: We may need to check in with our community before we ever put the key in or hit the garage door opener. I'm a big proponent of just throwing an SOS text out or getting on the phone with somebody and saying, "You're not going to believe the day I had, and I'm about to walk in to I don't know what. I just need to dump this." If we can dump it in a healthier place, that means at least we're walking in more aware, or at least maybe a little lighter. And we're not going in all alone. I know I've got a community behind me as well who are praying for me or talking to me.

JJ West: Give us a little view of what that timeline from "after" to "inside" to "before" is like.

Doug Barns: Standard answer: different for everyone. Everyone's recovery is unique. But I would say it's somewhere in the 18 to 24 months range that you make that journey. Some guys, they're on the fast track, they're able to knock that out in just a couple months. Some guys, it maybe takes a lot longer because they have lived a life of complete unawareness. But I do think most guys—and probably if I were pressed, I would say closer to really like 12 to 18 months—it's not going to take 10 years to do this. But it's also not going to happen next week if you just started recovery. It's going to be months of training and to recognize the—because early on, it's I'm moving the timeline from acting out or acting in behavior to awareness. When I start, it might be days or weeks before I'm aware. But I'm moving it closer and closer, and maybe it gets to days to hours, and then it gets to I'm noticing it as it's happening. That's just going to take time because we're not in practice for that.

JJ West: You realize there was a collective groan from spouses when you said 18 to 24 months? I heard that in my head. Now that doesn't mean nothing happens for 18 months and then "ping!" So there needs to be progress. There needs to be "I started off at several weeks, and then I went to a week to days to hours."

I only say that because I got an email just this morning from a spouse who asked basically the same question. "How long is it before he can emotionally connect with me? How long is it before he's going to stop emotionally talking to me this way?" It goes back to the fact that it's not pathology in the sense of damaged forever, but it is a wound that's been there a long time. This is very doable, but it just takes time. The part I can't help is the amount of time in relationship he's done this, and it's been damaging this whole time. So she just wants to avoid the damage, and so for him to stop that—just stop it now—it's taking that time for him to learn.

I call it learning Japanese phrases. No offense. But it's learning a language that I never learned. I never learned how to be intimate, and I never learned how to speak true recovery until I got into recovery. It's just an evolving process ever since. It's not an outcome. But it's learning how to be emotionally connected to myself so that I can realize, "Is the acting out on the horizon or is the acting in on the horizon? And who do I have close to me that I can connect with?" And this is an ongoing thing. We still work on it years and years later in recovery.

This has been such a great discussion and we've barely chipped the tip of the iceberg because there's so much more. So I think we want to continue the discussion in a second episode on acting in, because truly it's such an important discussion we don't want to shortchange it. We don't want to leave out important stuff here. So I think we're going to leave the rest of the discussion to next week's episode. We hope you'll tune in again. Hopefully this has wet your appetite. You started to recognize, "Oh, you know, I do some of that. I do act in relationally by pushing others away as a way to protect myself when I feel overwhelmed, when I feel out of control, and I don't want to keep living that way." And so we want to tune in next week to talk about "So what do we do instead? What does it look like to start living more connected, in greater community with others?"

Thanks again for listening, guys. We're so glad that you're on this journey with us. Until next time, let's keep walking in integrity.

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