Focus on the Family

Welcome to Focus on the Family's weekend broadcast. We hope the following program will challenge and encourage you in your faith journey.

Leann Murphy: We want peace before the comforting. We want peace before the agreement. We want peace before we even aim for restoration. It just struck me that in that one little verse, I felt like this is why we've been doing it the wrong way. We've been doing it backwards.

John Fuller: What are some things you thought you knew about marriage? Welcome to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. Whether you're considering marriage, or committed to being married, or you've been married for a while, we've got some great essential advice for you to improve the relationship. Thanks for joining us. I'm John Fuller.

Jim Daly: John, I don't know about you, but on that wedding day, you're thinking of all the highlights to come. I remember our wedding, Jean and I. My brother was a pastor at the time and he did our wedding. Throughout the whole thing, I'm going, "Now the rings," under my breath.

Afterward he goes, "Man, could you just let me do that?" That was when I first realized I might have control issues. That was our wedding day. Then you roll into the actual marriage after the wedding day and you're thinking of all the highlights and everything pulled off perfectly. You're both happy and exhausted and then you start the real process of being together 24/7 and living together.

Before long, things happen. This is marriage. It can be really bad, devastating things like betrayal, financial difficulties, issues with kids. Over time, your marriage can drift apart. Yet, for us as Christians, we need to know the tools that are available to make sure that the least amount of drift, if any, occurs.

John Fuller: Our guest today has been married for 38 years and brings some really incredible wisdom and practical tools for navigating conflict, rebuilding after infidelity, and preparing for a lifelong godly marriage. Leann Murphy has written two devotional books which serve as the basis for our conversation today. They are *Becoming a Wife: 21 Days of Preparation for a Daughter of God* and the companion, *Becoming a Husband: 21 Days of Preparation for a Son of God*. Learn more about Leann and these terrific little devotional books at our website, which is focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim Daly: Leann, welcome to Focus on the Family. Good to have you here.

Leann Murphy: Thank you. I'm excited to be here.

Jim Daly: This is a really insightful. I like those unique ideas about how to transfer your values to your kids and your grandkids. There are just so many unique thoughts there. These two books really were the genesis of communicating to your sons about marriage via letters. What happened there?

Leann Murphy: It was a little bit of a panic attack. My oldest son, Patrick, came and said he thought this was the time he was going to propose. He was making plans and I just remember having that thought that we have prayed for this. My husband and I had prayed for his spouse.

My mother had planted a seed when they were little by giving us a little hanky as a reminder that someday it would be given to his wife because she had been prayed for. It planted a seed and we had done that. When he said he was getting married, it was that thing where you went, "Did we do it enough? Have we said enough?"

We have been through the flat tires of marriage and the breakdowns. I particularly think it was a little bit of a panic attack on my side. Have we told him enough? I thought I would just write him a letter and I will give it to him before he gets married. That turned into 21 letters.

There is a lot of stuff that we need to be prepared for with marriage and I don't feel like we were. When Colton announced that he was getting married, we went to their engagement party dinner and Patrick said, "Oh, Colton gets the book now." That does your heart good. He actually read it. Then his sweet little wife, Lydia, said, "Wait a minute, you helped raise me. Do I get a book?" So I went back and rewrote 21 days for a daughter. That is how they really started. They started as letters to children and grew from there.

Jim Daly: You discuss how it was difficult for you particularly to put Jesus first in your marriage. You were young. How old were you guys when you got married?

Leann Murphy: We were both 24. We both had Jesus first personally, but to put it in that marriage was like we almost kept it in a box. This is the marriage and this is spiritual. We went to church, we did those things, but we never really incorporated Jesus into the marriage conversation.

Jim Daly: What does that look like to do that?

Leann Murphy: To incorporate Jesus into it looks very different now. Our marriage is very different. We talk about that as part of our plans. We pray together. We pray together at meals because that was the tradition of our families. Now we pray together in the morning. We pray together when we are concerned about something. We sat in the parking lot before we came in here and prayed together.

He becomes part of that unity instead of thinking there are two of us in this marriage. Now you start thinking there are three of us in this marriage. You start recognizing that the marriage is an allegory of Christ and the church. We are bearing Him out in our marriage. When you don't have that in the forefront of your brain, you might have read the verse, but you had never made it practical. You never said what that means and what life should look like in your marriage.

Jim Daly: That is so true. I think the earlier in your marriage you can get to that place, the better off your marriage is going to be. What creeps up like a weed is the choking off of the healthy things in your marriage, the intimacy emotionally and physically. Then you end up in places of doubt or mistrust. You get on a hair trigger when it comes to conflict. You guys did something unique when you first got married. You moved into your in-laws' backyard.

Leann Murphy: We did. It sounded like such a good idea. We were looking for a place to live and wanted to be frugal. We were going to buy a mobile home and move into that. They were like, "We have all this property. You should be here."

It made great sense. It was cheaper and they were people we knew. It was a small town and we were going to be close to them anyway. So it all seemed to make really good sense. Sometimes what makes really good sense doesn't line up with common sense.

Jim Daly: What was the first clue that this might not be good?

Leann Murphy: I think the first clue was that Mike thought it was really wonderful and I started having concerns when conversations that we would have as a couple became conversations that included parents' opinions on a lot of things.

He would go home for lunch and his mom and dad were retired, so they would have lunch together. I was a schoolteacher, so you don't get a long lunch. You are at work. Those connections in my family were seven hours away. There was just this very tight-knit connection, which is a blessing, but it can also be a problem when you don't cut those apron strings.

Nobody who knows Mike Murphy would say he is a mama's boy, but when that connection is still so solid between one parental unit and the other one is independent of that, that can become a problem. We started realizing some of our arguments were based on how this really upset his parents or concerned them, particularly when we were thinking about moving or getting a job and going somewhere else.

Jim Daly: Mike is here today. If you were to wind that tape back and Mike could redo that, what could have been done differently to make you feel more included or try to compensate for that situation?

Leann Murphy: I think part of it is just that extra effort. If you are the spouse that is close to the family, physical proximity has a lot to do with it. Interestingly, often it is the reverse. It tends to be that daughters stay closer to their families. We just happened to be that reverse because I had moved away from home.

When you are the one that is closer to the family, you're more intimately engaged with your family. You have to be very intentional about recognizing that the spouse's role is preeminent. Their opinion has to count more and their interests have to be considered. You have to be breaking out of that family of origin.

It is hard because you have been in this family for 20-plus years. Now you are in this marriage for two years. You have to build that relationship. When you don't intentionally say, "I understand your opinion, but Mike and I have decided," or "Leann and I have decided," you have to distance yourself.

I recently heard a friend of mine say, "My mom and dad always understood how things were going." There was an alliance there. In that statement, there is a separation from the spouse.

Jim Daly: This was one of the factors that led to some resentment and distance in your relationship. As things unfolded, was there ever resolution or did things just deteriorate?

Leann Murphy: We had really wonderful times together and I think that's a lot of marriages. You have great times together, things go well, you have friends and family that you do things with, but it's in those quieter moments where it's just the two of you that those conflicts rise up.

If you go about the way of the world, you just sweep that under the rug and keep moving. I think that's what we tended to do. Things could look really great on the surface. We had a wonderful friendship. Mike's always been my best friend. But we did not nurture that marriage as the unique, sacred relationship that it is.

We treated it more like every other relationship. If a conflict came up with a friend, a lot of times you can just sweep that under the carpet and go on with your friendship. But in the intimacy of marriage, those things need to be dealt with. So over time, I think that did become a challenge. I tend to be the more direct, aggressive one and Mike is probably a little bit conflict-avoidant. You see that in a lot of couples.

Jim Daly: What I am hearing you say, which is really the destructive dynamite of marriage, is expectations, especially unspoken expectations. We just think he or she should know exactly what I need and what I want. Then they go dashed. In a relationship where that is frequent, there is like a withering of the flower in your heart. Then you just let it happen and sweep it under the rug. This is going to continue in an unhealthy direction. You ended up one day looking through a cabinet. Describe that moment and what you found.

Leann Murphy: Again, great relationship on a thousand levels. On the outside everything looks great. We were raising children and going to church. We loved that congregation.

The boys were right at 10 and 6 in that ballpark. We came home from church one Wednesday night. Mike had had to work late and I came home from church. Just out of the corner of my eye, I saw him put something in a cabinet. I didn't even think anything of it. Kids are getting ready for bed. Let's hustle this off and get everybody settled.

When he walked away, I just opened the cabinet and there was his phone. You don't know anything and then you immediately know everything. Something wasn't right. I found a text message to another woman. That was how I discovered that.

Jim Daly: Those moments, and there are so many things that go into the ingredients of that moment, are heartbreaking. People that have not experienced that can easily look down their noses and pass judgment. What was your response immediately? That ends up becoming the thing that sets in place whether this will go in a good direction or a not-so-good direction.

Leann Murphy: I don't think you can explain that level of devastation. This many years afterward, I can also say you can't explain the devastation that the spouse is going through. At that time, I could not even have fathomed that. But now, having talked to him about it and having talked to others, there is healing.

Alan and Lisa Robertson were intimately involved with us during that time and they were such a place of refuge and grace. It was the opposite. It was Lisa in that situation. I want to say to somebody who's listening and they are there, there is hope and there is healing because God gives us that hope and healing.

I think one of the things that I would say to those of us who perhaps arrogantly said that will never happen in my marriage or I would never stand for that, is to look at David. David was a man after God's own heart. To be able for God to say that about any of us would be the ultimate. And David committed adultery. There was a brokenness there, so there is hope. For me, at that point where you're seeing that and you think this is it, you need to know that there is a possibility. It is hard to find that hope. I looked for books to give me that hope, but they're hard to find.

Jim Daly: We're not going to unfortunately have all the time to diagnose this and how the Lord patched it all together. But the one thing I've observed with couples that have held together is that this is probably the number one issue that couples will come to Focus on the Family's Hope Restored efforts.

If you are in that spot right now, not just with infidelity, but if it feels like your marriage is in deep trouble, this is a place for you to come and get that restoration that Leann's talking about. They have a four-day program. It's grueling, 8 to 10 hours each day, but it is the most effective way to get your marriage back on track. We go back to every couple two years later. Over 80% of them have stayed together.

These are with people that have divorce papers in hand. So if you are in that spot, give it a try. What do you have to lose? We will help you in that. Just give us a call. But from that experience, Leann, the intimacy that's developed post-affair does open this can of opportunity to go deeper and more intimate. The couples that I've talked to that went through infidelity and have held together, they feel like their relationship now is so deep and so close because you know each other so well. You're broken.

Leann Murphy: And I think that's part of the reason, like I said, it was almost a panic attack moment because I don't want my children to experience that. So build those boundaries. Set those boundaries. Have those agreements with one another. Have those conversations before you get married and then again on the first anniversary and then again on the second anniversary. Know how to fight well. Normalize that you are going to fight and you need to be prepared for that and embrace that to the extent that you're fighting for one another, not against one another. To be able to say that to my sons, "Fight for her. If you're fighting against her, it's the wrong fight."

Jim Daly: It's a great trigger to think of that before you get into a deeper problem. Even people hearing that Christian couples should not fight. I've had people contact us after doing a show like this and say Christians should never fight. You can call it deep emotional disagreement, whatever you want to say, but that isn't a sign of failure. It is actually, if you can manage that well, a sign of healthiness. 2 Corinthians 13:11 really spoke to you. It gave you the perspective you needed to handle disagreements in your marriage. What is that scripture and how did it impact you?

Leann Murphy: 2 Corinthians 13:11 was one of those scriptures I found when I was actually looking for scripture to point out why Mike was wrong. I don't know if anybody else does that. But it hit me and it starts with "rejoice." I was like, "Okay, Lord, why this scripture?" because I was looking for scripture to point out that Mike is wrong. I'll stick with you a little bit. There were six, I believe, verbs there. He's trying to teach me something here. Rejoice was first. One of the things that I know helps you be in a better frame to have those deep hard conversations is to focus on the good first.

Do something fun together. Do something where you just recount what the point of this argument is. It's because I love you and I want to be with you and I'm going to age with you. So rejoice. And then aim for restoration. I immediately saw a bullseye. What is it? What are you trying to restore? A lot of times we don't even get to the root of the fight. We're talking about I'm aggravated because you left your dirty socks six inches from the hamper. That's not the real argument. The real argument is am I valuable to you or am I just here to clean up your house? It almost always comes back to am I valuable to you?

Then comfort one another. These are so out of order in my mind because I thought we got to come to agreement before that. He holds come to agreement till the fourth step. So it's rejoice, then aim for restoration, then comfort one another, then come to agreement, and then live in peace. We want peace before the comforting. We want peace before the agreement. We want peace before we even aim for restoration. It just struck me that in that one little verse, this is why we've been doing it the wrong way. We've been doing it backwards.

Jim Daly: That verse ends with "and the God of love and peace will be with you." It's the thing you want the most that He mentions last. "I'm going to be there with you." Some days it may not feel like it, but He is there with you every step of the way. He gives us that pattern in that one little verse.

John Fuller: We have a program here called Ready to Wed. Dr. Greg Smalley and the marriage team here at Focus pulled that together. It is premarital counseling. There's great data to support that if you get 10 hours or more of premarital counseling, your risk of divorce is very slight compared to certainly the world's but even within the Christian divorce rate. For those couples that are dating, maybe engaged, this is the primary audience for the books. What do you say to them about this companion set of books to be that good wife and to be that good husband?

Leann Murphy: I would just say you need to be intentional and you need to talk to one another. You need to address these issues. We know what's going to cause marital problems: money, sex, in-laws, parenting. Address those. This gives you a place to respond. It asks you questions and then it lets you share it with your spouse. I think just anything we can do to prepare our children, the people we love, to go through the things that we know are going to be hard. Marriage is going to be tough, but it is so worth it.

Jim Daly: Leann, I so appreciate it. Think about it, folks. It is not easy to come into a studio with a national and international footprint and tell your story as a married couple with infidelity and how the Lord worked to repair that. Mike, thank you for that vulnerability as well. Leann, for responding in a way that says, "I'm going to fight for our marriage." God honored that. If you want to strengthen your marriage or prepare for a great one in the future, Focus on the Family is here for you.

I think the one thing when I meet folks when I travel, they don't realize the treasure trove of help that Focus on the Family can be. We have been at it almost 50 years now. We have a counseling team you can call. It's all free. They'll spend time with you on the phone, get an idea of where you're at, and help you biblically and spiritually with some next steps. Just call us and we'll set up a time to call you back. Take advantage of it.

With these books, if you can't afford them, we'll find a way to get them to you and trust that others will cover the cost of that. For those that can, if you can make a monthly gift to help Focus, that's great. A one-time gift is great. When you do that, we'll send you the books as our way of saying thank you for being part of the solution, the ministry here at Focus.

John Fuller: We'd love to hear from you. The number is 800-A-FAMILY. We've got details to everything we've mentioned along the way, including Leann's great books, *Becoming a Husband* and *Becoming a Wife*. You'll find those at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. Thanks for joining us for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller, inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.

Jim Daly: John, teen anxiety rates have really risen over the last few years. I think with COVID, it began to show. My own son was a junior/senior in high school. It was upside down. Our little school district here in Colorado Springs wasn't really prepared to do at-home learning. There weren't the systems and all those things.

So it was unusual and I think for those young people particularly during that COVID season, social structures were changed. I remember they didn't do the prom one year and then the next year, they put tape on a floor and allowed only 10 students in the taped area. Where you could go and comingle was on the deck. Guess what happened? Everybody went to the deck.

So I don't know what that six-foot separation was, but again, it was just odd. I think it had a lasting impact and we're seeing as high as 50% of teens and early 20-somethings now that have depression or anxiety. It's the highest it's ever been. Here at Focus, we want to help you as a parent. There's no magic dust that goes over this. Even Christian kids from Christian homes are going to be impacted by these exterior inputs. We have to be savvy and smart as to how to address those needs. They are real. We experienced it in the Daly household. This is something to be taken seriously as a parent.

John Fuller: Our guests are Amber Lia and her son, Ollie. Amber's been here before. She's a best-selling author and speaker. She's got four sons and Ollie is the oldest of those boys. He has a ministry to other teens on social media. We're going to be talking about a book that mom and son have written called *You Are Seen: 90 Devotions to Encourage Stressed and Anxious Teens*. You can learn more about our guests and get a copy of this book from our website, which is focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim Daly: This is great. I'm so thankful you're both here. Ollie, I really give you a lot of credit here for stepping in as a senior in high school. We really appreciate hearing your heart and hearing from you about what that has looked like for you having anxiety and dealing with it. Amber, of course, you're so in tune. I so appreciate your parenting approaches. It puts a little more pressure on you, doesn't it? Nothing like having to be perfect. But what's so true is we're just human as well. For those of us that have written books on things, we're often writing out of our own experience, our own pain, and trying to process that to help other people. That's the way I know you approach this.

Ollie, let me start with you. I admire your courage. In that context, when did you first realize, "I think I'm feeling anxious. I think I'm waking up every day"? Paint the picture for parents that don't really understand what it looks like to you. How old were you and what was the beginning of that journey?

Ollie: Thank you guys for having us. I think my story kind of began going into my freshman year of high school. We were living in California and then we moved across the country to Tennessee. It was a very big change, very big culture shock as a freshman. I remember taking my first steps walking in the door. I knew one person and that was my neighbor that literally I met that morning who drove me to school.

It was very new. I remember walking in the class and it was just very different for me. Lots of different people and places and I just remember feeling a little out of my zone. I felt very uncomfortable. Honestly, I feel like that's kind of when my anxiety kind of started to kick in because I felt like I was kind of outside. I felt like I was the new guy and all the eyes were on me. Of course, that brought a little bit of a stress and anxiety because I thought, "Am I the only one?" which was definitely an interesting chapter for me to kind of begin my high school life in, for sure.

Jim: That's a great opening point that parents can miss, that when there's a big shift in life, a big move, that can be a beginning point for something like that. How did it manifest for you? Describe for us inside your own heart and mind what those voices were saying to you.

Ollie: Honestly, I think one of the main things that I struggled with walking into high school was finding friends, finding a good community, finding people that I could surround myself in to just text and be like, "Hey, you want to go grab some coffee?" or "You want to go grab lunch?" I didn't have that. I struggled because everybody kind of knew each other since they were born.

That was very different for me coming from California. I was very much into introducing myself to anybody that I could. It would be nice and I would be able to have a conversation or two and then just kind of felt distant again. It was very weird. I just remember feeling lonely. I just remember feeling kind of sad because I felt like a people-watcher almost. I could see people having relationships, laughing and going and sitting with each other at lunch, and I just didn't know who to sit with. I didn't know those things and I felt very lonely. I felt kind of out of what was going on in this place that I had found myself in. This was just four years ago.

Jim: Amber, as a parent, were you eyes wide open? Were you looking for that? Ollie's your oldest. You had a deck stacked against you. Oldest child, freshman year, move across the country change. I can't imagine all the things you were feeling.

Amber Lia: As a family, we were excited. Whether your child still lives in the same hometown they've always had but they're going to a new school or there's just a new season, you're excited. We tend to focus on the positive. We don't imagine necessarily that things are going to be so hard for our kids. For Oliver and even his younger brothers that were preteens and teens, we started to see with Ollie in particular a bit of a shift and that he just wasn't his normal perky self. He's typically very outgoing, joyful, conversational when he'd get home. He would start to just go up to his room and shut the door.

He started to shut down little by little. I thought, "Okay, we're homeschoolers and then we shifted to going to school. Maybe just the pressures were getting to him a little bit." I didn't realize how much it was affecting him. He tried to mask it for a little while too, until it got to a point where he couldn't. I think I might be the dad that would go up to your room and pat you on the knee and say, "You know, Ollie, it's going to be okay." Not that your dad or mom did that, but how useless is that?

Ollie: Genuinely, it helps. My mama, she loves me and I give her a lot of credit because I think without her I probably wouldn't be in the place I'm in now. She really introduced the Lord to me in the place where I wasn't finding God. I would go up into my room. It became a thing where I'd get home from school and walk straight up to my room, shut the door, and wait until you'd see me until dinner, which is not myself. I'm the oldest. I'm the big family guy. I walk in and ask how my little brothers are doing and everything. I've got responsibility.

My mom would come in and she would engage in conversations with me and I do think that I was definitely distant and felt kind of short. It was pretty hard actually at first. I was so resistant when she would come up to me trying to comfort me, trying to talk with me. I think I tried to do things on my own. I wasn't sure. It was new. So I was kind of like, "Let me just figure this out. This is just like a school assignment. This is just some homework. I'm just feeling a little off. I can try and get this done." I really, because I did that, put myself in a far worse place than I really had to be in.

Jim Daly: So the aim was noble but the process didn't help you is the point. I think back to my question. The thing that we need to be mindful of as parents is, and I think Jean would have a fair criticism of me as my parenting style, that I'm kind of pick yourself up by your bootstraps and go. That doesn't work in this spot. You've got to, as a parent, you've got to be there. You've got to move in and you can't be pushed away by that superficial "I got this." You've got to keep processing and pressing into your child's heart. Speak to me as a dad in that context of how to think of this differently.

Amber Lia: It was very important. When we started to see panic attacks begin, when we would start to see Ollie spiral into the darker places, less of the "I've got this" and more of the clearly something wrong, you feel so helpless as a parent. You're not sure what to do. Even in those moments, we would come to Ollie and he would be like, "No!" and he would be very resistant and push us away. He would even tell us that sometimes he just wanted to be in that dark place. Even though he didn't want to be in that dark place, he wanted to be in that dark place.

It was really difficult as a parent. I think the key for us was to not give up. I was just committed that I wasn't going to give up on him. We sought counseling. We looked into medications, different supplements, changing his diet, making sure he got good sleep. A lot of practical things proactively, consistently is what helped to eventually break down some of these barriers and help us work through some things. For a parent, even when your child pushes you away and resists you, they don't really want you to go away. They do need you there.

Not to be personally offended by it. At first, I would get indignant and be like, "Well, you can't talk to me like that. I'm trying to help you." Then I realized quickly that's not going to help. This is him feeling something that's not about me and this isn't my child that's normally who he is. This is somebody different all of a sudden. So to just continue to be patient with him and loving to him and to speak truth to him in small doses, even if he rejected it in the moment.

Jim Daly: The first thing we're hearing is, as parents, be aware of situational changes that can impact your child's emotional well-being just generally and don't be flippant about it. Engage it so that you can attack this together. What are some of those practical steps parents can take?

Amber Lia: Ollie and I are so thankful that we even have some amazing professional counselors that speak into our lives and we include some of that in our book together too, because we needed those practical steps. When Oliver would get into a really deep, dark place, a hole, it was almost like he was just in this pit and nothing could bring him out of it. It often times was because of anticipating something that was about to happen.

Even if it was a good thing, it was like too much for him to handle. Going playing baseball, he loved to play baseball, but now all of a sudden the thought of going to a game or something would be so overwhelming and anxiety-inducing that it took all the joy out of it. So we would do some practices like one practice we would do is we would just take a deep breath in the moment. Oliver learned pretty quickly to do this when I wasn't around, to do some box breathing.

Ollie: Box breathing is super simple. It's like the very normal way you can start to figure out how to start managing your breathing. You breathe in for four seconds. Then you hold it for four seconds. Then you breathe out for four seconds. Then you just wait for four seconds. You just kind of keep that cycle and I like to think of it as a box and that's why we call it box breathing. It kind of regulates you. I remember multiple times where I would be sitting in my bed, I just remember it being a dark setting as well. I'd be sitting in my room. I would just genuinely be having this anxiety, this panic attack where I'd just kind of be freaking out.

I remember being like crying. I remember being worked up and I just remember my heart just beating and beating and my mom would come. She'd hold my hand and sometimes I'd take my hand back and pull away. She'd just say, "Ollie, just give me a second. Just give me a chance. Let's just try the box breathing." I'd say, "No, this is stupid! I don't want to do this." She just kept on going after me, kept on pursuing me. Let's just try this. So I eventually tried. I did those breathing steps. My heart started slowing down. I was able to have a conversation and that is when life change began to happen because that was when a space was created where I could open up to my mom. It was because of those practical steps that I was able to really talk about what was going on in my life, what was going on at school, in my sports team, how I was feeling, what was causing my anxiety.

Amber Lia: We learned also to along with the box breathing because the cortisol and the stress hormones and the fight or flight mechanism that's chemically going on in his body in that moment, it allows us to just get back to reality for a minute instead of in that swirly place, that panic-driven place. We would do that breathing. We would just get back into our senses again. I would often say, "Okay, Ollie, let's I'm just going to tell you two things I'm thankful for just from today."

I would encourage him to do that and sometimes he would resist, but eventually, just by being persistent and consistent with him when we would do the breathing we'd be like, "Let's just shift from the fear of the future or the loneliness or the grief of whatever he may be processing from earlier today, but right now there's still hope. We can still be grateful" and just trying to shift his focus to there is good in your life right now. I know it feels dark and scary and overwhelming, but we have to take those thoughts captive and to focus on things that we can praise the Lord for even today.

John Fuller: We're hearing from Amber Lia and her son, Ollie today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. They've written a book together that's a 90-day devotional to encourage stressed and anxious teens. It's called *You Are Seen* and we've got copies of that here at the ministry. Stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim Daly: Before we move off of this theme, there were the senses grounding that you went through. Box breathing must have been one of them. What are the other senses orientation that helped you?

Amber Lia: One of the other key things that was helpful for us was telling Oliver, "Okay, in the moment again, you're panicking, but let's try something called 5-4-3-2-1," which we learned from counselors too. I would say to Ollie, "Okay, Ollie, what are five things that you can see right now?" and just looking around them and at first your teenager might again resist you. Don't allow their resistance to dictate what you do as a parent. You get to lovingly keep pursuing them.

When he wouldn't do it, I would sometimes even in the beginning just say it. I can see the necklace around your neck. I can see the blanket here on the bed and I can see the trees outside that are blowing in the wind. Just five things that you can see. Then it would be four things that you could feel, feeling the shirt against your skin. Three things that you could smell, two things that you could taste, just going through the senses one by one and allowing that again to bring us back to the present moment and not be in such a place of panic and overwhelm.

Jim Daly: Going through some of that counseling for our family, I think we underestimate the power of sense and that's what they're connecting you with so you can get better connected with what's real. Correct. It regulates your nervous system. These are simple things that they've learned to help reduce anxiety and depression. It's really phenomenal. They had like patting a tabletop while you're doing a circle on your chest. It just triggers aspects of your brain that help soothe it. It's so interesting.

Amber Lia: And I think it helps to build empathy and compassion as a parent for your child because you're realizing this is a really physiological thing and sometimes a spiritual thing. We don't need to panic ourselves and think that there's something terribly wrong that we're not going to be able to work through, that we can work through this and also to again not take this personally and start to feel guilt as a parent.

Jim Daly: Let me ask this. We've talked about the dad response, "it'll be okay." It sounds hollow to the person who is suffering from that anxiety or that depression. Amber, I want to ask you specifically and Ollie respond as the recipient of this, how do we as parents encourage our children to trust God when the circumstances are that hard? It feels a little bit like "it'll be okay" because again, that connection to the Lord can feel distant to the one who's dealing with anxiety.

Amber Lia: I absolutely know and believe that the word of God is living and active. It is useful for life, for godliness, but it is powerful in the moments. In our worst moments, it is the word of God that is going to ground me the most. As a woman who has faithfully clung to God's word, I hunger for it. I don't have a quiet time or my own devotional time because it feels like a rote activity. I'm desperate for it. I need God that much in my life and it is His word that has helped me the most.

In particular, I found that as a mom, refocusing Ollie on the promises of God and his identity in Christ was the most helpful scriptural direction to give him, which is why we called our book *You Are Seen*. We wanted to put in place all of these different 15 different things that are affirming for teenagers about who they are in Christ and His promises to them. When Ollie was struggling the most, I wanted him to know that the joy of the Lord is your strength. You may feel weak right now, but there is joy in the Lord. Weeping will be through the night tonight. We are going to cry some tears tonight, but Ollie, God's word says joy comes in the morning. The Lord tells you cast your cares on Him. That means you're going to have cares. You're going to have anxieties. Cast them on Him. He cares for you. Really trying to speak through the darkness to shine the light. When the light is present, the darkness has to go.

Jim Daly: Let's end with Mom speaking to moms and dads, but the mom's heart to say, okay, if you feel like you're in this spot, don't ignore it. Don't try to just talk it out. What are those things that I need to do that I'm concerned about because my son, my daughter is not what they used to be in that emotional space? What do we do?

Amber Lia: First of all, you're not alone. This is a really common thing that so many teens are struggling with. As a parent, we often are caught off guard by it. We're surprised by it. We don't realize how dark and deep it's become for our teens. In general, I think it's important that we keep our kids in prayer. That's like the foundation for me. I pray so fervently for my kids.

Even in those moments when I had no idea what to do because nothing I was doing was quote-unquote working with Ollie, he'd be in his room crying or just isolated. I got to a point where I would even, and I wasn't really raised this way, but I was just like, "Lord," I would take cooking oil and I would put it all around the doorframe of Oliver's door and I would just be on my knees outside his door. When he would push me out, I would just pray over him. I would just take scriptures and I would just say, "Lord, the angel of the Lord is a guard around my son. Lord, just replace the dark thoughts with words of your truth. I cannot get through to him, but I know, Lord, that you can."

So really praying fervently for my child and recognizing that while I wanted the Lord to be Ollie's hope, He was also my hope as a mom. I could rely on the Lord to give me wisdom and discernment and be consistent in persevering for your child. Be proactive in getting help. Do your homework. Reach out to Focus for the resources that they offer and the counseling that they offer. Don't give up on your child and please have hope. Ollie and I are testimony hopefully will be a great encouragement to you. It could take a long time, but don't give up on your child and don't give up on the Lord being a present help in your child's.

Jim Daly: I like that point of hope because don't let shame and guilt be those core principles. Let hope be the principle and make sure as a parent that we're not reinforcing shame and guilt because we didn't get the child we hoped for.

Amber Lia: I have to say too that along with that, one of the main things that we dealt with a lot is the shame and guilt that Ollie would feel after some episodes he would have. Then it would be the shame and the guilt for how he spoke to us or how he treated us. I've gotten to the habit of saying to him, "Ollie, you are forgiven from the start. You're already forgiven and again, you don't need to feel that shame or guilt."

I think that's why Ollie started an Instagram called "Walking with Ollie" just to speak to teens and peers so that they would be able to see you don't need to hide and isolate about this. It's normal unfortunately. You're not alone. So just remembering people that it's good to be vulnerable and it's good to connect, but don't feel shame over it.

Jim Daly: Ollie, I'm impressed. I think you continue on your path and then you can become president of Focus on the Family. You got so many things going in your direction with the Lord. Well done. Way to go. Way to fight for life. John 10:10 says the thief comes to steal, kill, and destroy. It's clever how he goes about doing that. It is to kill you emotionally, to kill you physically, and to destroy who you are made in God's image. He hates that we're made in His image. I'm proud of the way you have fought for life. I mean that big life, life in Christ is what the end of that scripture says, to have life in Christ and life more abundantly. It seems like you are there. It's a privilege to meet you. Ollie, always good to see you. Amber, thanks for being with us.

If you or your teen is really struggling with anxiety or depression, we are here for you. Our counselors can help you take some initial steps to get back to a place of peace, so give us a call.

John Fuller: Set up a free consultation with one of our caring Christian counselors when you call 800-232-6459. 800, the letter A, and the word FAMILY. Or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And let's get a copy of Amber and Ollie's devotional for anxious teens into your hands. This is a crucial resource because so many teens turn to smartphones or video games or worse coping mechanisms to numb their anxiety. *You Are Seen* can provide lasting solutions by grounding them in spiritual truth.

So if you're a parent of teens or a grandparent of teens, get a copy from us here at Focus on the Family. When you make a donation of any amount, we'll send it to you as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry. At Focus, we provide so many resources like podcasts, articles, and counseling consultations completely free because we're a nonprofit ministry. If you've benefited from some of those resources over the years, like today's show, I hope you'll make a financial gift so that we can continue to offer that support to other parents, couples, foster children, and many more.

Donate today and request your copy of Ollie and Amber Lia's book when you call 800-232-6459. Or stop by the website. Thanks for listening to Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller, inviting you back next time as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.