Focus on the Family

John Fuller: This is John Fuller, and please remember to let us know how you're listening to these programs, on a podcast, app, or website.

Lisa Turkeurst: What the Lord I think wants us to understand is if we want stability in our life, we have to have that coming from him. And where I wrestled so deeply is I know God is good, but like I said before, I would get confused, why aren't you being good to me in this?

Lisa Turkeurst: And so, I would make all these suggestions to God. God, here's what I think a good God should do. You like do this and do that and do this and do that. The problem is that I can't possibly know what a good God should do.

John Fuller: That's Lisa Turkeurst and she's with us today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly as we explore the idea of trust and what to do when trust is broken. I'm John Fuller.

Jim Daly: John, I've talked a lot about being made for relationship. I believe that's core to what God has done with humanity. He made us for a relationship with him first and foremost and then with each other.

Jim Daly: It's one of the reasons, as we climbed out of that whole COVID thing, we got back in the office here at Focus rather quickly because I just felt we're wired to be together and to work together and certainly have our home life together.

Jim Daly: But I just didn't make sense to me to get cooped up in a house, isolated. I don't know that that is healthy spiritually or emotionally. And that's part of the battle we have in a bigger context for us to be wired for relationship. What do we do?

Jim Daly: It means we're probably going to be wounded. Things will shatter our lives, but it is part of the process and then how do we learn from that? How do we pick up those pieces and keep moving forward? I'm looking forward to our discussion today with a great guest.

John Fuller: Yeah, yeah. Lisa Turkeurst knows all too well the painful journey through broken trust and she's going to share her story and what she's learned on that path to healing. Lisa's been a guest here a number of times. She's always popular when she comes and you're about to hear why.

Jim Daly: Always popular.

John Fuller: Yes. She's the President of Proverbs 31 Ministries and she's encouraged millions of women to find strength in their faith and their relationships. She's written a number of books and today we're talking about one of her latest called, I Want to Trust You but I Don't.

Jim Daly: Lisa, I think you speak so effectively to women particularly, but men too, because you are so vulnerable. You know, and it's one of the things we miss in Christian leadership is guess what? We are not perfect.

Jim Daly: And it shouldn't shock anybody and yet we try to put that on display that somehow we've got it all together. And certainly you've experienced some things in the recent past that have decimated that illusion of perfection, but you've managed it with such grace and straightforwardness that it's been actually quite encouraging to me just to watch and to hear you.

Jim Daly: So welcome to Focus.

Lisa Turkeurst: Thank you. Thank you. Well, those are such kind words. I appreciate it so much. And I think to some extent, you know, people say you're so brave, you know, to share your story. And maybe it does take courage to share my story.

Lisa Turkeurst: But also, I'm not sure I really had a choice because, you know, I was going to walk through the death of my marriage, and to me, it really was a death.

Lisa Turkeurst: And so, you know, it wasn't going to really be possible for me to keep it secret. And unfortunately, you know, sometimes the Christian media is interested in stories that, you know, have a little scandal to it or whatever, you know.

Lisa Turkeurst: And so, I knew that that my divorce was going to become very public. And so, I had a choice. I could either get ahead of it and tell it with truth and grace and with the amount of, you know, emotional angst that was present with this whole thing.

Lisa Turkeurst: Or I could let the rumor mill tell my story. And so, I chose to be the one to use my voice to share it.

Jim Daly: I think again the topics that you're hitting, this idea of trust. We have something called Hope Restored. It's a marriage intensive. That's one of the core values that they're teaching these wounded couples to re-initiate and re-engage and rebuild the trust in their relationship.

Jim Daly: It seems to be one of the core issues in the breakdown of marriage that one spouse doesn't trust the other or both of them don't trust each other. Speak to what you experienced in your first marriage. What was happening that eroded that trust?

Jim Daly: And I think a lot of women and some men too are going to identify with that's what I have felt like.

Lisa Turkeurst: Mm-hmm.

Lisa Turkeurst: Well, trust is the oxygen of all human relationships. So, you starve a relationship of trust and you will starve it of vibrancy and potentially you'll starve it of life.

Lisa Turkeurst: And it's impossible to repair trust that keeps getting broken and that was the pattern that I saw in my marriage and it was devastating. At first, I think as a Christian woman, I wanted to believe the best so much that I intentionally tidied up things in my mind that I was seeing with my eyes so that, you know, it wouldn't be true.

Lisa Turkeurst: I just didn't want what I was seeing to be true. I didn't want my husband to be having an affair. I didn't want my husband to be struggling with substance abuse. I didn't want my family to fall apart. And so, I think sometimes you can overlook red flags and I'll own it.

Lisa Turkeurst: I think sometimes a flag, a red flag has to be like burning down to the ground before I tilt my head and go, huh, I guess that was a little red, wasn't it? You know? And so I Let me ask you and certainly continue with that.

Jim Daly: But it just strikes me that so many of us could say, well, it's better to err on the side of trusting than to err on the side of suspicion all the time. And I I would think our personalities might play into this as well.

Jim Daly: Again, whether you're a woman or a man, but you know, speak to that because it sounded like you were a trusting spouse and then it actually ensnared you. It caught you.

Lisa Turkeurst: Yes, it absolutely did. And I think there's a big difference between wise trust and blind trust. You know, as I studied the scriptures because I was really struggling, like shouldn't my trust be unconditional?

Lisa Turkeurst: And I discovered, no, trust should be very conditional, you know, based on the choices of the other person. And sometimes distrust is the wisest choice to make.

Lisa Turkeurst: You know, look, we all make mistakes and that's what grace is for. And, you know, I make mistakes, you make mistakes, but there's a big difference between a mistake where someone breaks your trust and it was a mistake that they broke it and they repent for it and, you know, they say they're sorry and then they commit to not doing that again.

Lisa Turkeurst: And they also want to walk through the repair process. There's a big difference between that that I just described, a mistake, and a repeated pattern of behavior that continues to go on where there isn't lasting repentance. Sometimes you can have temporary repentance, but I mean, lasting repentance to the point where the other person is willing and capable of making the necessary changes.

Lisa Turkeurst: So, trust doesn't continue to get broken, but also that they have the humility to repair the rips in the trust that are there.

Jim Daly: That's good. And we're going to cover so much material this time and if you're willing to stay for another day and we'll, uh, we'll also get a little deeper into your experience and where you're at today.

Jim Daly: Let me uh, mention one of the things you talked about was a brain scan that you did with Dr. Amen. I I know of Dr. Amen and I know some of the work that he does, but describe the physiological impact of emotional trauma.

Lisa Turkeurst: Yeah. Well, so I wanted to better understand the impact because long after that initial finding out of, you know, his infidelity and walking through very long process, 10 years to try to work on this, repair this, renewed my vows at one point, you know, all of this.

Lisa Turkeurst: I just knew that the impact had been great. And so, I wanted to know exactly what that was. So, yes, I went and had my brain scanned. And I'll never forget, uh, it wasn't just a scan either by the way.

Lisa Turkeurst: You have to do so many cognitive tests and, you know, they're measuring a lot of things and doing several scans. But when he finally put up the results of my scan, he showed on one side the results of a healthy brain and on the other side, he showed me a picture of my brain.

Lisa Turkeurst: And what I saw were four lit up spots on my brain. Those are four anxiety centers that stayed lit up whether I was at rest or whether I was active.

Jim Daly: So they were on overdrive.

Lisa Turkeurst: They were on overdrive.

Lisa Turkeurst: And he pointed out these four anxiety centers and showed how they form a diamond and he called it the trauma diamond. And it's a direct result of the betrayal that I walked through.

Lisa Turkeurst: And then he started to describe for me, okay, when this is lit up and it's not calming down, this one right here, this is indicative of PTSD. This one over here, it's indicative of catastrophic thinking.

Lisa Turkeurst: This one down here means that you may have a hard time with people's facial expressions or even cues because you're always worried, what's their hidden agenda here? It's like I'm misreading those.

Lisa Turkeurst: I didn't used to. Like I could look at you and go, yeah, he's telling the truth, you know. But now, you know, because this is always lit up, there's so there's consequences.

Jim Daly: Right.

Lisa Turkeurst: And I remember standing there looking at that and seeing how my brain has been altered. There are physical ramifications for emotional abuse. And I'll never hesitate again to say emotional abuse. Whereas before, I was always really scared of that phraseology because it felt like I just didn't have proof.

Lisa Turkeurst: Now, I want to say to anybody listening today, you don't have to go get your brain scanned. I've just described some pretty telltale signs of this kind of emotional trauma. And, um, and I just want to encourage you that it's not hopeless and you're not helpless, you know, and that's one of the reasons why I wrote this book.

Lisa Turkeurst: I want to trust you but I don't.

Jim Daly: Yeah, and in fact, that's part of the discussion is where hope comes in, where the Lord comes in and your reliance upon him. And again, we're going to uncover a lot of that, but let's move to the the idea of hope and trusting another person.

Jim Daly: What happens when you give up on hope because I'm sure you experienced that.

Lisa Turkeurst: Mm-hmm.

Jim Daly: It's a big thing. Hope carries you through so much that you are hopeful that there is a light at the end of the tunnel, even in terrible circumstances. I experienced that as an orphan. You know, think, okay, tomorrow's got to be better.

Jim Daly: And that's hope.

Lisa Turkeurst: It is. Um, hope is amazing. Hope is also one of the most brutal risk that a person can take because to dare to hope is to look forward to something that if your experience has told you over and over and over and over that it's not probably going to go the way that you want it to go, then it starts to feel scary to even hope.

Lisa Turkeurst: It used to be I truly before this happened, I was always like, worst case scenarios never happen. And so, I used that thought process to better manage what I was whatever I was facing. So, I remember telling myself, you know, you can look at this and chances are, it's not going to be worst case scenario.

Lisa Turkeurst: It's not going to be best case scenario. It's going to land somewhere in the middle. And I used that to manage my hope for my future. But I think when I went through so many repeated things in my first marriage where worst case scenarios did absolutely happen, and I think that can really start to mess with you.

Lisa Turkeurst: So, I wrote in the book about quietly quitting on hope. And here's how it would play out for me. I would say the right answer. Like, I would say, yes, you know, I think things are going to get better. Yes, you know, I think I'm going to be okay.

Lisa Turkeurst: But inside my heart, I didn't believe it. And I was already trying to put things in place, like safeguards, walls, um, hesitancies in connecting with people so that I could try to stay a little bit better in control.

Lisa Turkeurst: I didn't want to risk hope. I wanted to just know, like, I could say it with my mouth that I hoped for things, but inside my heart, I was already doing the work to manage because I didn't really think that I should hope for that.

Jim Daly: Let me ask you, you mentioned in the book this concept of discernment or trigger. And I think it's really brilliant. You had two similar scenarios that happened involving a rushed goodbye and a suitcase. So, explain that analogy, which I so appreciate the way you bring in these observations of regular life into a spiritual context.

Jim Daly: You do that very well.

Lisa Turkeurst: Well, thank you. There were many times when my ex-husband would suddenly announce he was going somewhere. And, you know, I it would catch me off guard. And, uh, he would pack his suitcase and he would go and, you know, he would say like I have a business meeting that I suddenly got called into, which felt odd and it always made me uncomfortable.

Lisa Turkeurst: And then once I found out about the infidelity, um, which continued on even after, you know, it was communicated to me that it had stopped. And so, any time I saw that suitcase coming out, any time that it was like a quick announcement that he was going somewhere and it was rolled away from me quickly, it was so alarming and triggering and it usually meant that something wasn't right.

Lisa Turkeurst: So, here we are years later, fast forward. And it took me a very long time after my divorce to even consider dating. But eventually, I met a wonderful man. Um, and spoiler alert, I am married to him today.

Jim Daly: And I met him and he's a wonderful man.

Lisa Turkeurst: He is. His name is Chaz. Um, I think so too. Um, so I remember uh when we were dating, um, and he would come for a visit. And, you know, he was a very, very trustworthy. He had a track record of being trustworthy.

Lisa Turkeurst: But I remember one day, um, he just said like, hey, I've I've got to go back suddenly. And, um, we were standing in the parking lot and I saw him like wheel his suitcase really fast, you know, toward his car.

Lisa Turkeurst: Now, in my mind, it was really fast. He was doing what was normal. Like, goodbye, turned around, pulled his suitcase to the car. But in my mind, it brought back the trauma from the past. And I could not figure out and I burst into tears, not because he was doing anything wrong.

Lisa Turkeurst: But because that scene was such a close replica of something that did mean great danger from my past. So, I went and talked to a therapist friend of mine and I asked her, how can I tell the difference between a trigger from past trauma and present day discernment?

Lisa Turkeurst: And I thought, surely she was about to give me a formula. Here's how you know it's discernment. Here's how you know it's a trigger. But that's not what she said. She said to me, investigate.

Jim Daly: Mm.

Lisa Turkeurst: And I it caught me off guard and I just thought, what do you mean investigate? And she said, ask questions. And how the person that you're asking the question of, how they react will tell you a lot.

Jim Daly: Yeah. Lisa, let me let me just plow a little bit of something you said a moment ago because I there's probably three or four situations in marriage that you're speaking to. What I mean by that is the infidelity is occurring, you have a red flag.

Jim Daly: You don't know what to do. You're suspicious. We call it instinct, intuition, all those things that we call it. And it's valid. And then there's going to be the other side of this where maybe out of childhood pain, childhood trauma, other things that have occurred, abuse of some sort.

Jim Daly: You can also develop those same kind of triggers and it's not going to be valid. And speak to that side of the equation where you have a more paranoid fear that has gripped you for whatever reason. How do you dig in and become satisfied that everything's okay?

Jim Daly: That's very dangerous ground to walk into, but you need to. How do you do that in a way that's healing and not hurtful?

Lisa Turkeurst: Well, that's where we have to work on ourselves and we have to really address our story of origin. You know, and we have to really figure out. I remember I did a, um, we have to really figure out what's going on.

Lisa Turkeurst: I remember my counselor said something to me when I was going to counseling, he's a wonderful Christian counselor, and I was going to counseling because I'd been through this devastation in my marriage and I wanted to deal with how I was wounded.

Lisa Turkeurst: And so, I remember one day he said, okay, but let's talk about what you need to work on. And I was I was honestly kind of offended because I'm like, well, I didn't cheat, you know, so what like, what do you mean?

Lisa Turkeurst: And he was like, well, Lisa, you know, you've been working harder on another person than they were willing to work on themselves. So, now let's work on you. And he had me do this exercise where he drew out this big egg shape on a poster board.

Lisa Turkeurst: And he had me divide it up into little compartments. And he told me to draw a little stick figure scene of any time that I had been wounded from my earliest memories. Maybe I had been wounded because someone said something that was deeply hurtful.

Lisa Turkeurst: Maybe it was abuse of some kind. Maybe it was abandonment of some kind. Whatever, but just from earliest memory of childhood all the way up to present day, you know, draw these little stick figure scenes.

Lisa Turkeurst: And I didn't know what he was getting at and also I'm not into drawing. So, I was like.

Jim Daly: So, stick figure is right up your alley.

Lisa Turkeurst: Yes, yes. So, um, so I did the activity and then he had me stand in front of him and he said, go each little scene and just briefly tell me about it. And I did that and what he was listening for was a shame script that was consistent that he could hear as we went through the story.

Lisa Turkeurst: And when I finished describing all the compartments of that trauma egg, um, I figured out my shame script had been playing a part in how I process every relationship.

Jim Daly: Interesting.

Lisa Turkeurst: And my shame script was this. Lisa, don't inconvenience other people. You are an inconvenience. So, don't ask other people for things because they may disappoint you and that'll be deeply hurtful or you'll have to carry that feeling that you're just a pain to that person and also deeply hurtful.

Lisa Turkeurst: So, Lisa, you are an inconvenience. So, don't exacerbate that bad feeling inside of you by being an inconvenience to another person.

Jim Daly: that really holds you back from investigation. What you just mentioned a minute ago. I'm just thinking of that script in your head. You're going, okay, this is me. So, this is complicated. It's not as easy as it sounds.

Lisa Turkeurst: It is. And it it would also cause me to be hesitant in my connections. Um, you know, it's crucial in a relationship that in order for trust to be like woven into the fabric of that relationship, you have to have connection and you have to have safety.

Lisa Turkeurst: So, what can happen when your trust is broken, sometimes some people, maybe because of their childhood trauma or other personality wirings, whatever. But some people will prioritize connection so high, like they are desperate to keep that relationship even though they are experiencing broken trust or hurtful things being done.

Lisa Turkeurst: But they prioritize connection so high that they diminish their own need for safety. And what I mean by that is they overlook things that they shouldn't overlook. They put up with things they shouldn't put up with, right?

Lisa Turkeurst: But for me, I think what was starting to happen with me is I was prioritizing safety so high that I was diminishing connection in the relationships. And so, our goal is to bring it back in equilibrium. We want connections that are safe. And that's where trust can be found in a relationship.

Jim Daly: And I think for today, we're right at the end. I think it would be good to put the God capstone on this. And you mentioned it a couple of times, the inculcating of distrust for the Lord even because he allowed you to be in the circumstance or allowed these things to occur.

Jim Daly: If for today, we're saying, how do we rebuild that trust? Does it start with yourself? Does it start with the Lord and you're seeking the Lord to forgive you for that lack of trust you have in him or challenge him with the fist up in the air, saying, Lord, I can't get over this.

Jim Daly: Why did you let me down as your daughter? Just describe that and then fold that into the hope and then we'll come back next time and dig in some more.

Lisa Turkeurst: Absolutely. Well, I think what I started to realize is ultimate stability is never going to come from a human to human relationship. We can enjoy human to human relationships, but we can't expect other people to never break our trust.

Lisa Turkeurst: Like we can't build the foundation of this person's never going to disappoint me. This person's never those are unrealistic expectations. Interesting in the Bible, the word for trust or trustworthiness is bata, B-A-T-A-H.

Lisa Turkeurst: When it is directed toward the Lord, it's always in a positive sense. When it's directed toward other people, it's almost always in a negative sense. In other words, God understands we are going to have our trust broken.

Lisa Turkeurst: Obviously, we want to choose wise relationships where we're not being emotionally devastated. But what the Lord I think wants us to understand is if we want stability in our life, we have to have that coming from him.

Lisa Turkeurst: And where I wrestled so deeply is I know God is good, but like I said before, I would get confused, why aren't you being good to me in this? And so, I would make all these suggestions to God. God, here's what I think a good God should do.

Lisa Turkeurst: You like do this and do that and do this and do that. The problem is that I can't possibly know what a good God should do. Like I am so limited by my own human thinking.

Jim Daly: Well, and selfish for all of us.

Lisa Turkeurst: And selfish, and all those things, right? And so, what I have to do is I have to remember, God is good and God is good at being God. God's plans may be different than mine, but different doesn't mean that they're bad. Different can also be good.

Jim Daly: That's right.

John Fuller: What a great insight from Lisa Turkeurst today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly and I really appreciate her vulnerability as she shares her story and what she's learned about trusting others.

Jim Daly: She's so insightful. That's what I love about Lisa and there's more to come next time that you won't want to miss. Lisa will explore how our trust issues can affect our relationship with God and how we keep moving forward, which our whole life has demonstrated that.

Jim Daly: Let me say that Focus on the Family is also here for you. Our goal is to equip you and provide the tools you need to have thriving relationships, whether that's with your husband or wife, your children, your loved ones, your friends, even your coworkers.

Jim Daly: If you're struggling and need some guidance, we have a team of caring Christian counselors on staff who can listen to your specific situation, pray with you and offer some direction toward hope and peace. We also have Lisa's terrific book, I Want to Trust You but I Don't, moving forward when you're skeptical of others, afraid of what God will allow and doubtful of your own discernment.

Jim Daly: Wow, that is a title. It's full of personal stories and biblical wisdom that will help you examine trust issues in your relationships and encourage you to find healing. You can get that directly from us here at Focus on the Family and when you do, the proceeds go right back into ministering to others.

Jim Daly: When you make a pledge today to sustain our ministry to couples and families, and no amounts too small, we'll send you a copy of Lisa's book, I Want to Trust You but I Don't, as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry.

Jim Daly: Also, I want to share this. We recently heard from a listener named Brenda who told us this. I can't begin to tell you how much it means to know that Focus on the Family is praying for me and my teen daughter as we walk through some difficult challenges.

Jim Daly: Over the years, your ministry has helped me through divorce, raising my children as a single parent, and now these present struggles. Whenever I felt like I couldn't carry one more burden, God has used your resources to renew my strength. Thank you.

John Fuller: What a wonderful message to hear.

Jim Daly: It is and Brenda's thank you extends to you the donors because we couldn't do this ministry without you and we don't do it apart from you. Every day Focus on the Family is helping marriages grow stronger, equipping parents and offering hope to families in need.

Jim Daly: If you're not already part of our friends of Focus on the Family community, I'd like to invite you to join us during this membership drive. Jean and I support Focus this way. Our goal this month is to welcome 1200 new monthly partners who share a heart for strengthening families.

Jim Daly: Consider becoming one of them. And we have a really fun campaign. John, you kind of spearhead this. But when you commit to $30 or more a month, we'll send you a Focus on the Family with Jim Daly travel mug. How do you travel with that thing?

Jim Daly: I don't know. But along with a 4-ounce bag of our very own coffee blend and it's the same one that we use here in the studios with our guests. If Focus on the Family has encouraged you or your family, take this moment to partner with us. Your support means changed lives, stronger families, and a brighter future.

Jim Daly: And if you can't commit to a monthly gift, we get it and we understand. For a one-time gift, we'll also send you Lisa's book as our way of saying thank you.

John Fuller: Donate today, get your copy of the book I Want to Trust You but I Don't, and if you need to connect with one of our caring Christian counselors, all when you call 800, the letter A in the word family. Or stop by focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we continue the conversation next time with Lisa Turkeurst and once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.