Focus on the Family

John Fuller: This is John Fuller, and please remember to let us know how you are listening to these programs on a podcast, app, or website.

Melanie Shankle: In our minds, we don't want them to face lions and bears because it's hard to watch them. We just want it to be so easy. But when we look at our own lives, we are like, was it not our lions and bears that built our faith and trust in God? So why are they going to be any different?

John Fuller: Well, coming of age in today's world brings a whole new set of challenges. Today on Focus on the Family with Jim Daly, you'll hear one young adult's perspective on the pressures facing teens and young adults and how to trust God for your future. Thanks for joining us. I'm John Fuller.

Jim Daly: Well, along with that one perspective is her mother, who's been on the broadcast before. So I'm looking forward to this dynamic. We've done this a couple of times now, and it's great to see the 20-somethings rising and coming in and doing the interviews with us. This is great.

But so often for young people, I mean, bullying is a hot-button issue for so many parents, and it's really distressing for all of us if your kids are in that position. Thankfully for Jean and me, Trent and Troy really didn't face anything like that. We were grateful for the school they were in, for the education they received, and for the environment they had. It was pretty powerful.

But according to national surveys, bullying affects about 20% of kids ages 12 to 18. 20%, that's a significant amount. And then in addition to that, the cyberbullying is experienced by almost 60% of children, and that's out of control, I would say.

And that's not the only pressure that our young people are facing. Almost 40% of young people report always feeling always feeling uncertain about the future, anxious about important decisions, and afraid to fail. That's all Barna research, and that's amazing. Let's think of First Peter 5:7, which instructs us to cast our cares upon the Lord, for He cares for you. Isn't that awesome? And what a great reminder for all of us. So I'm looking forward to this discussion.

John Fuller: Yeah, and Caroline Shankle is a new author and a recent grad of Texas A&M, where she's doing her masters. She's just 22, and we're so glad to have her here. She shares from her own perspective and experiences. And Jim, as you indicated, Caroline's mom is here, Melanie Shankle, and she's been with us before. She's a best-selling author and co-host of a very popular podcast, The Big Boo Cast. And Caroline's book, The Lion and the Bear: A 100-Day Devotional for Facing Your Giants, really serves as the basis for our conversation today. Find out more about Caroline Shankle and her mom Melanie at our website.

Jim Daly: Welcome to both of you. Good to have you on Focus on the Family.

Caroline Shankle: Hello, thank you for having us. We're excited to be here.

Jim Daly: Now, this is like the fruit not falling far from the tree, right? Mom author, now daughter author. Did she inspire you? I'm giving you a softball here.

Caroline Shankle: Yes, she definitely did inspire me. She did.

Jim Daly: It's not that every family has writers. It's kind of a hard thing to write a book. It's not easy. So did you see that mountain and go, I could do this, if mom can do it, I could do it?

Caroline Shankle: You know, honestly, I don't know if that's really... I remember when I was younger, people used to always ask, "Oh are you going to follow in your mom's footsteps? Are you going to do this?" And I was like, "No, I'm not going to do that. I have a science brain. I'm going to go be a veterinarian or do something else." That was kind of always my mentality.

And then God just kind of worked, and there was just a lot of different things that happened. And all of a sudden, I started looking and being like, "Oh." Well, I think she was the one who told me. She looked at something I'd written for my roommate for her birthday and she was like, "My condolences, but you're a writer." Those were her exact words.

And then, yeah, I kind of feel like that was kind of once someone actually called that out in me and was like, "Hey you can do this." and that's kind of where it came from.

Jim Daly: Yeah, that's so good. And again, it's quite an achievement to write a book. The Lion and the Bear, this is a true story. The other night, my boys and I, we were talking about who would win in a fight, a lion or a bear? I mean, it's so bizarre and there your title is. How'd you come up with your title?

Caroline Shankle: So my title actually came from it started my sophomore year of high school when I was going through some hard times and bullying, and I was dealing with a lot of struggles. And one time, I was sitting at the dining room table with my parents because, we always would debrief and talk about all the things.

And my dad started saying, when something hard would happen, he'd always look at me and he would say "the lion and the bear." And basically what it meant was he was talking about the story of David and Goliath and just how God sent David the lion and the bear before he faced his Goliath.

And my dad was just like, "All these trials and all these struggles you are going through are preparing you for something greater." and I think that's where I looked at it. And it was the perspective of when I was facing hard times of, "This is my lion and this is my bear to prepare me to fight the giant later on."

Jim Daly: That's great context for how to attack life. And so getting to that, so many people think of your high school years or junior high years as perhaps the best years of your life. I'm not sure that I ever met that person, but high school can be buoyant. It's a good time. It can be fun.

But there does seem to be a lot of pressure. Something that doesn't seem to change is the attacks of young people on other young people. For boys, it tends to be physical, but paint that picture and what were you experiencing in high school?

Caroline Shankle: I think there was a lot of, with girls being younger and even now, I still see it, there's a lot of different politics and dynamics of how you need to perform or what you need to say or how you should react to a certain situation.

And when you're in friend groups that are maybe an unhealthy dynamic and you don't react the way a girl wants you to react, or you don't lean into the drama, or you don't lean in, there becomes almost this thing of people want to try to alienate you.

I feel like a lot of what I experienced was I would be in a friend group, there was a girl that maybe we had issues or we didn't get along super well, and the goal was how can I cut this girl out? It was a lot of like, how can I exclude this girl from going to this? Or how can I do that? That was some big things that I feel like I experienced.

And it was really tough, especially with phones and stuff, because instead of just hearing about it in the hallways or maybe never knowing about it, you usually have your friends' locations. So you're looking on a Friday night and seeing all your friends hanging out without you, or you're seeing them post on Instagram that they're all at the movies or at this restaurant and you're not there.

And so I think it was a lot of these kind of trying to make you feel isolated and make you feel alone a little bit. And I think it's a lot of trying to appeal to certain emotional dynamics and with drama. It was just this thing of they were looking for a fight. They'd try to say something and they'd want you to say something mean back or they'd want you to fight back.

And trying to, it was always hard trying to combat that with logic and reasoning. I think my dad was always just kind of like, "Try to take your emotion out of it and look at it factually and just try to explain it to them logically on how what's going on, what this means." and I think that it was not received well by a lot of girls. I think those dynamics are really hard.

Jim Daly: You know, what's tough hearing that, and I mean this in kind of a cultural way, the formation of that. I mean, it sets you up to be a herd mentality person. You gotta go with the herd. That's really dangerous for culture, dangerous for Christians where we're training one another to be part of the in-crowd.

Caroline Shankle: Go with the flow, don't keep your head down, please people, that's kind of the... and it's like, that's dangerous.

Jim Daly: Yeah, because I think on the bigger issues of Christian ethos, that puts you at a in a weird spot if you're going to say, "Hey, you know, I'm not going to have sex before I'm married. I'm going to do all I can to prevent that from happening." and then you're ostracized for that.

But I mean in all that context, Melanie, as a parent, what do we do? I mean, it sounds like your husband's done a and I'm sure you as well just a good job. And I'll come back to you in a minute about those inoculations that work and maybe things that don't work. But Melanie, what...

Melanie Shankle: Yeah, I mean I think the big thing is, is when you know your child is going through a hard time or you're starting to see these friend dynamics. I mean, number one, I we always paid really close attention to who is she hanging out with? Because I think so much at that age your identity is so wrapped up in who your friends are and what they're doing.

And so, you know, we always tried to keep an eye on who, who's her group? Who's she spending time with? What kind of girls do these seem like? And I think it's what startles you is because what started off, I was like, these are girls that I've had in our home that we've spent time with. I've curled their hair before the homecoming dance. Like how did this turn?

So but then I think when you start to see that, I think number one, you have to take an honest look at your child. I think that's one thing as a parent where you're like, "What's your role in this? How could you be better? Or are there ways that you can manage it better?"

And then when you start to realize, "No, we are taking the high road, we really are trying to handle this." Then at that point, I think you have to figure out, and this is where Perry, my husband, and I really had to figure out what was the best way for her personality to handle it?

Because I tend to be such a people pleaser, so I kept saying, "Just kill them with kindness. Just keep taking the high road. It's going to be fine." And that was okay for a while, but at some point, it was like, "It's not getting any better." So I think you have to pay attention to how your child needs to handle something and what their strengths are.

Jim Daly: So what did Perry say? I'm interested.

Caroline Shankle: So Perry said, "Lay the hammer down." That's basically he I remember it had been like three consecutive months of these girls being mean to me and just there was no end in sight. And I just I didn't know what to do at this point. I'm like, "I'm doing what all the adults are telling me to do. I'm trying to be kind and I'm trying to just keep my head down and ignore them."

And yet girls were finding me in bathrooms and cornering me and bullying me and saying mean stuff. I mean, it just was like and I was like, "I'm being kind. I'm not trying to make I'm not saying anything mean to you. I'm not talking about you. I've blocked you on my phone. I don't know what else to do."

And finally, I was looking I was talking to my dad about it and he finally just looks at me and he just goes in his super calm way, not actually, but he was like, "This means war." And like for me, that was almost a light bulb that went off because I realized me trying to keep my head down and just please all these people and avoid confrontation is not true to who I am and who God wired me to be.

And I realized it's okay to advocate for yourself and it's okay to show people that you're not going to tolerate being cornered in the bathroom and called terrible things. And I think there's a respectful way to do it, of course.

But I finally just the next day, I think I literally went up to one of the girls when we were in that bathroom and she came in like she always does because she followed me in there. And I was just like, "Hey, you can't treat me this way. I don't know what's going on, but this is not okay. And I'm not okay with it. And if you keep doing this, I'm getting the school involved."

I was like, "I'm going to have to get the school involved and this isn't going to end well for you." I was like, "Cyberbullying's become technically illegal, and I have records that you in fact did that." I'm like, "You could get expelled or suspended for this, and you need to know that before this goes any further." And it was just advocating.

Jim Daly: How was that response?

Caroline Shankle: I think she thought I was bluffing. And I wasn't. And I think that was like kind of it was a little bit of a little, I don't know, I mean maybe. But then I really did. I had to get the school involved, which I think was really hard for me because it almost from a pride thing, it almost was like, "Am I a snitch? Like did I did I lose? Is this not?"

But I was like, "This is beyond just kids arguing. Like this is a healthy boundary that I need to have." And after that, I mean, we really were like after that she really did leave me alone. Like it finally got to the point to where I was like, "Okay, now that I advocated for myself and I told her like I'm not going to tolerate this and I will take measures in order to make sure this doesn't happen."

I learned like it's okay to advocate and be strong and do it in a respectful way, in a way that honors God and not calling anyone names or anything, but you can still do it.

Jim Daly: Right, I think Jesus did it with the Pharisees.

John Fuller: Exactly. Well, and who knows how many other people she was bullying? So you probably helped shut down some systemic bullying. This is Focus on the Family with Jim Daly and our guest today are Caroline Shankle and her mom Melanie. And we're so glad to have them here as we talk about Caroline's book, The Lion and the Bear: A 100-Day Guide for Facing Your Giants. And while this is directed towards younger adults, it really is an appropriate book for pretty much anybody that wants to do well in the world without giving in to the world. So learn more at focusonthefamily.com/broadcast.

Jim Daly: Caroline, let me ask you another thing we didn't mention in the opening, this especially again in that female relationship context: comparison. Guys have this too, but for us, it's more athletic I think. But speak to that. And you encountered a young lady who was bullying you and you started looking a little more deeply. What happened with her?

Caroline Shankle: I think the thing with comparison too, this is where I first started realizing or it's where kind of my whole thing with comparison kind of I started thinking more about it or thinking deeper. For me, it was first in college when I was going into an being an animal science major and going into the ag school. And I did not grow up in the ag world necessarily and everyone I was with did.

In Texas, in Texas A&M, of course. And so they were going into it knowing all of this stuff and they had all these scholarships and all these different things. And I remember I was talking to my professor and I was like, "I don't know what to do. Like she's doing this and she's doing this." and he just kind of looked at me and he was like, "Hey, comparison is the thief of joy."

And I was like, "Oh." and it was just a light bulb for me almost of this like, I've been so busy comparing myself to others, I'm forgetting my own assets and what I have and the joy that I have in how God created me.

And I think it's something that's so common with girls, but it's this I feel like there's so much comparison in either in looks and in accomplishments and even I faced it even in sports, like with soccer and stuff. I mean, we were all vying for scholarships. We were all vying for college coaches' attention. We weren't working as a team. We were trying to just be the best individual we could be, and it usually caused us to lose games because of it.

But I remember there was one girl specifically where it was just a lot of she was a friend, but it was a lot of comments about just maybe the way I would look or something I would do, and it just made me feel a little insecure. Or and I was like, "This doesn't feel kind."

And then one day we were at her home and her mother did it to her in front of me. And all of a sudden, I was just like, "This is where this comes from." the root. And I think that was something super important and it also kind of goes back into advocating and when I was dealing with my other mean girl stuff in high school is there's a reason they're treating you the way that they are and there's a reason they've learned that.

And that's super important to remember because we always say, we're not even that good with Jesus. Now imagine without. And so it's like you realizing you're dealing with people who are really hurting and really struggling. And you have to have a level of empathy and a level of compassion and care for them while you advocate. And that was kind of my eyes opened to that when I saw what she was dealing with at home and I was like, "Oh, there's a reason she feels the need to do this to me. There's something going on in her heart and there's hurt there that she's passing on to others because she's been having to struggle with it." And so I think that was super important to remember.

Jim Daly: You know, another strangulation, and I use that word very specifically because it's dramatic, is perfectionism and anxiety. And you write about that in the book as well. These are great topics for young people.

That area of perfectionism, I think so many Christians fall into that that, you know, we're trying to live up to the standard of Jesus. Well guess what? He was perfect. We're not going to get there, but we're striving to be better as we progress through life, to be the better person, more like Jesus every day. Some days we'll do well, some days we'll do poorly. But speak to that idea of perfectionism and how did you wrestle that to the ground to say, "Okay, I don't have to be perfect."?

Caroline Shankle: That was something I really struggled with in high school, especially in sports. For me, it definitely came out in soccer the most. I remember there were games where I remember there's one specifically it was my sophomore year when I was going through all my mean girl stuff.

But I'd made the varsity team and I was one of the smallest, youngest players on the team, and we were playing our rival, and my coach kind of came up to me and he was like, "It's on you tonight." Like he put a ton of pressure on me.

And I panicked. Like I was so scared of messing up that basically I got on the field and I just shut down. Like I barely played. And people were like, "It was so low effort. It was so this." and I'm like, "It wasn't low effort. I was just scared." Like I didn't want to mess up and I was so anxious.

And I finally just I started coming to the conclusion, and it was a quote, and I wish I had it down and knew it immediately, but it was Teddy Roosevelt and it was the man in the arena is the quote, which is my favorite and I live by it. Like I have it in my room.

But I finally started just realizing I'm not going to be perfect and I'm going to make mistakes. And I would much rather go all out and do the best I can and mess up than be too scared not to do it. And I was always worried about people judging me or people making fun of me.

And it just was that you know it says in the quote like those cold timid souls that will never know victory nor defeat. and it's like I would so much rather try than not know either. And who are they to sit back and judge me for doing giving it my all and being the best I can be?

Jim Daly: Yeah, they're too timid to get into the arena, but they're very vocal about coaching the arena.

Caroline Shankle: And so it was kind of working through that. And it was also just thing of just knowing it's okay to mess up sometimes. Like that's how you learn. I feel like I've learned more through shanking a soccer ball all the way over there than I did when I scored a goal.

And I think that that was just an important thing for me to have to work through and overcome and be comfortable with rejection, be comfortable with failure, be comfortable with like you have to become comfortable with that in order to get better.

Jim Daly: Well again, these are great themes: perfectionism, anxiety, comparison, all the things we're talking about. Melanie, you ring the bell for the parents here because you're saying, "Be careful not to reinforce these things." and you gave a couple of examples where you might say, "Well you play better than that guy. I wonder why you're not first string."

I mean, that is a great thing particularly for dads to think about. And then you had an example with daughters, "Well you're prettier than her. Why would they say that about you?" I mean even those little subtle things that we can say that reinforce comparison and anxiety. How do we mind our own tongue as parents in this environment?

Melanie Shankle: Yeah, I mean I think you have to really encourage your child. I mean one of the things we learned and one of the conversations we had after one of those soccer games where we had watched her and we were like, "What's going on?" And she kind of, through talking to her she was like, "But I'm afraid I'm going to mess up."

And what we said to her was like, "We would rather you fail spectacularly. Like we would rather you go out in a blaze of glory and screw up than to play so timid that you're not being true to yourself."

And I think that's true with life. And these kids, this generation, my friends and I that are raising kids the same age, marvel because we're like, "Where did this come from? All this pressure to get it right the first time and everything has to be..." We didn't seem to have that.

And I don't know if it's a social media thing, if it's just because there is so much comparison where you can see people your age and what they're doing all the time. But it's like we've got to let our kids know, "Hey you need to try and you're not going to get it right. I didn't get it right the first time. You're not going to get it right the first time. And that's okay."

Jim Daly: I agree. I think the challenge for some parents watching and listening would be, "Where's that bottom?" to be fair. And you think, you know, "This is true, you don't have to be perfect. We just need your heart needs to be in the right place and keep trying." but there are going to be some parents that their kids are falling below that that line. And you're going, "Can you try a little bit? I didn't mean to go that far down." Speak to that when we were beginning to get anxious as parents because they're falling below a performance that is healthy.

Melanie Shankle: That's and I think that is the line. That's where you have to know your child and know, "I know you can do better than this. I know that you have more in this." because what we always said with her was we never expect you to be perfect, we do expect your best effort.

Like it doesn't have to be 100% perfection or you don't have to achieve everything, but we need to see you working to the best of your ability and what that is and kind of keeping an eye on where you know your kids can be better.

And I think there are times as a parent I think that we want to just be cheerleaders all the time and just be like, "You're amazing! You're the best! You're great!" but then there's times to be a coach and to be really honest and say, "Here are some ways that I see you failing and not thriving and here are some ways you need to do better." whether that's "I don't like this group of friends that you're hanging out with." "I don't like your study habits and the way you're letting your grades fall." It's okay to have those honest conversations.

Jim Daly: Yeah, and I think too, Jean did this really well, my wife. You know, she in elementary school noticed Trent was kind of hanging with the rough crowd in the playground, the rock throwers.

Caroline Shankle: That's right, those rock throwers.

Jim Daly: And she happened to be volunteering in the playground, so she was observing this. So she asked a couple of other parents if they'd like to do a Bible study together with the kids. And you know, to her credit really, those kids are now 25 but they've grown up together. They're in each other's weddings now. You know, they're best of friends. That little Bible study group that came out of the rock throwing behavior on the playground.

But it's just being aware and how do we create... It can be that subtle. It's more difficult as children get into their teens to try to control that environment. Caroline, let me end with you. You've heard the do's and don'ts, but let me ask you as the recipient of Melanie's parenting and your dad's. What are the do's and don'ts there, things that work for young people, things that may not work? If I can give you that quick rap sheet.

Caroline Shankle: I think the first thing, and this is one I always say that was so great for me in high school was just the way I felt so unconditionally loved. Like and that was it was very important and at the time I don't know if I I mean in high school you're not necessarily thinking about all this and being so appreciative because sometimes you don't know what you have.

But knowing that after a hard day I could come home and I knew for a fact that there would be a home-cooked meal for me. I knew for a fact that if I stained my favorite pants that she'd be able to get that out. You know that like there was just little things where it's like there was such a confidence in knowing like my parents were going to be there and they were going to be caring for me.

And some encouragement I would also say to parents is there were times where at high school I always had to have like this mask on and I had to pretend like everything's okay. And the moment I got home, I knew I was safe and that mask kind of came off a little bit. You know and I was just a little bit I was a moody teenager.

And I think so often that's the side parents see because their kids feel safer with them than they do at school maybe if that makes this is this making sense to y'all of that? But I think there's a level of encouragement of know that what you're doing is working and don't be discouraged if that happens because I like now in college I come back and I'm so grateful for everything my parents did.

And I think too also just the way that y'all y'all always knew when to critique and when to parent and when to also build up and encourage. Because I've seen so much with my friends where their parents will just nag and nag and tell them to do this and tell them to do that. And it's out of love, but there also needs to be a balance of being a cheerleader and building up and knowing that your parents want what's best for you.

And so I think like the fact that they y'all were able to do that for me and I always knew, "Okay, they're they're telling me this, but I know that they love and care about me still. This is just something I need to work on."

Jim Daly: It's almost that old adage: you have to fill that cup up so that when we as parents extract a little bit in terms of performance, that you're taking out of your abundance of knowing you're loved, etc. That's a good reminder for parents particularly. Make sure your children know that they're loved.

Melanie Shankle: You've got to build the relationship. Because to me, if you just focus on the rules without the relationship, I think it can create this resistance. You know? But I think when they know like, "Hey, I'm telling you no because I genuinely love you and care for you and this is not a good decision." You know? It just they may still not like the no, but it comes with a little more understanding that you really do have their best interest at heart.

Jim Daly: Well, so very good. If you're that parent going, "Wow, I need to apply this." get in touch with us. We'll make it easy. I mean, this is great content. Not only that, I think you could see the benefits of what Perry and Melanie have done and Caroline you just you showed so well. I'm proud of you really as a 22-year-old. Not to throw your age out there for the whole world but no, but you just yeah, you would be every parent's dream in terms of how you're handling yourself. And well done. Way to absorb all that and to learn from it, to write a book.

The Lion and the Bear: A 100-Day Guide for Facing Your Giants. Why don't you just get in touch with us, make a gift of $10 and we'll send you the book as our way of saying thank you for being part of the ministry. And you get a great resource as John said in the beginning, not just for your teens or twenty-somethings, but for anybody in your life including yourself that might struggle with boundaries.

John Fuller: Yeah, this is a great devotional book and as you said, Jim, it's not just for kids. My wife Dina and I had three daughters. They're now young adults. I kind of wish we would have had this resource to help them stay rooted in their identity in Christ during those tumultuous pivotal years.

You know, we have so many resources here for you at Focus on the Family, from our amazing team of caring Christian counselors to resources like Caroline's book. If you'd like to talk with somebody about where you're at as a family, if something we said today has really touched you and you're feeling a need to to grow through that, but you're not sure who to turn to, please know our donor community makes it possible for us to give you a call back and have a counselor listen to you, speak with you and pray with you.

Get in touch with one of our counselors or donate and get a copy of this wonderful book from Caroline, The Lion and the Bear. Our number is 800, the letter A and the word FAMILY. Or you'll find us on our website and that's focusonthefamily.com/broadcast. And next time, plan to join us to hear a miraculous story. Sarah Zagorski survived an abortion and became a very strong pro-life advocate.

Sarah Zagorski: I had to go through a lot of healing and recovery from that time in my life. Um, but my my Christian foster care parents, later adopted parents, provided that support. There were times as a teenager I was suicidal. I mean, it wasn't pretty. You know? But it was Christ throughout it and them alongside me.

John Fuller: Well on behalf of the entire team, thanks for joining us today for Focus on the Family with Jim Daly. I'm John Fuller inviting you back as we once again help you and your family thrive in Christ.

Caroline Shankle: Well hi I'm Dr. Danny Huerta and when a teen is struggling with anxiety, the stress often brings sleepless nights and being pulled apart as parents. But many couples have walked this road and found deeper unity along the way.

On Fearless Faith, I share common places where anxiety begins, while young adults like Caroline share how they've grown with faith, patience, and community support. You'll also hear practical ways to care for your teen while strengthening your marriage. Listen at navigatingteenanxiety.com.