FamilyLife Today®

Speaker 1

So as our kids have gotten older, it hasn't been easy at times because they've been letting us know some of the things we didn't do quite so right.

Speaker 2

That's a wonderful thing when your child comes to you as an adult and says, dad, I need to tell you something. You didn't.

Speaker 1

I'm really grateful that they're coming, but it's.

Speaker 2

I'm not. I'd rather just not know.

Speaker 1

This is the difference in our personality.

Speaker 3

Fast.

Speaker 2

Just let it go.

Speaker 4

Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us@familylifetoday.com this is Family Life Today.

Speaker 1

One of our sons came to me. This is recently. And he said, "Mom, I wish that you would have cared more about my heart than my behavior." I was a little bit defensive, like, "What do you mean I cared about your heart?" He said, "But when I would share my struggles of what I was going through, and maybe I did something that was wrong, you instantly centered on what I had done rather than why I had done it."

I thought about that, and I really prayed about it. Like, "Lord, is that true?" And I felt like, yep, I did. I cared more about the behavior. I would listen to what he was saying, and then I would have some objective reason why he shouldn't have done that, or maybe a biblical response of why God says he shouldn't do it, instead of saying, "Tell me more. Why do you think that's going on? Or why do you think you're experiencing that? And what's the pull? What's behind the action?"

I wish I would have learned that in my early or younger years because I wish I could have changed that.

Speaker 2

Yeah. And, you know, one of the things we need to learn as parents is how do we get to our child's heart? Not just their behavior, but their heart.

And so we've got somebody that's going to help us do that today. Becky Harling is a mom, a wife, four kids, an author.

Welcome to Family Life Today. Becky, glad to have you here.

Speaker 3

Hey. It is amazing to be with you guys. I'm having so much fun here with you. So thank you for inviting me.

Speaker 1

We're happy to have you back. You've written a book called *How to Listen: So Your Kids Will Talk*.

You sit in that time a little bit like, hmm, how to listen. It takes listening for my kids to talk, because a lot of times we think, I want my kids to talk more as teenagers. And maybe it comes down to listening.

So you really have some experience. You've written some books, but you also wrote another book about listening. This is a passion of yours, isn't it?

Speaker 3

Yeah, because it's where God had to work in my heart. Oftentimes, you know, you write books or you speak messages to the deepest need in your own heart.

And so not that I'm an expert listener, it's that God had to change me and I had to learn how to listen.

Speaker 2

Well, let's talk about that, because you mentioned earlier this week how you grew up in sort of an abusive home.

Talk about that a little bit. Is that where you felt the need?

Like, were you not heard? Did you have to learn?

I mean, what was that like?

Speaker 3

So I have a rather hard story. I grew up in a pastor's home. My father was a pastor. He was also a president of a Bible college, but he was also very abusive, very authoritative, and really sexually abused me while I was growing up.

In addition to harsh behavior at home, there was a lot of hitting.

Speaker 1

Okay, wait, wait, wait. Just that alone, like. But he's also your pastor.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And so that's hard to get your head around that as an authoritative person from God.

Speaker 3

Yes.

Speaker 1

That's not easy.

Speaker 3

No, it wasn't easy. And, you know, my mother had a lot of emotional issues, and there were times where I would try to bring up that I was being hurt, you know, but I was silenced. You know, it was like, don't ever say that about your father again. So I grew up with all these mixed messages. Unfortunately, when you grow up in a home like that where your voice has been silenced, you definitely wrestle with things like anxiety and depression. But you can also come out like, I'm going to wrestle, raise my voice, and it's going to be heard.

Sexual abuse is such a big topic to any of your listeners out there. If that's your story, I'd really encourage you, number one, to find a good godly therapist and work it through. Don't just shove it under the carpet. I did that. And then I would encourage you to find a godly mentor who will pray over you while you're going through therapy, because that can be life-changing for you.

But as a parent, if you don't deal with all the emotional baggage from your own childhood, it's going to come out in unhealthy ways with your own kids. And for me, it meant I talked too much.

Speaker 1

Because you never had a voice before.

Speaker 3

No. And, yeah. And I really wanted to raise godly kids. And somehow in my thinking as a mother, it was all about, well, I just got to teach them this verse, or I got to tell them this, and this is what God wants for them. You know, I was very hard on myself as a mother, I think, because I grew up in such a messed up home. I really wanted to do it well. But sometimes even that meant I was talking too much.

I remember a day where I was struggling with one of my teens, and I remember the Lord speaking to me in a grocery store. He brought me back to that verse in Exodus where it says, "I will fight for you while you remain silent." And sometimes as parents, we just have to get on our knees. Sometimes we have to cry things out on our knees.

There was a season where one of our kids, I really, really felt like she was walking away from the Lord. I took an entire month and prayed through the book of Ephesians for her. Every morning I prayed through that entire book, putting her name in. You know, God brought her back miraculously, which I'm very thankful for. But when you grow up in a home where you don't have a voice, you gotta deal with that or you're gonna talk too much in your own home.

Speaker 2

And when did you figure that out? I mean, when you were a young mom, were you, like, looking back now, were you talking too much? And there was a. Or a time where you're like, oh, my goodness, I need to be quiet.

Speaker 3

And listen, you know, it was a gradual journey for me, really. You know, it began one morning on my knees before the Lord. You know, when I had had a really rough morning with one of the kids, and I thought, I don't know what I'm doing. I just totally don't know what I'm doing.

And the Lord, you know, really spoke to me that morning and said, I want to teach you how to listen. But it continued along the way. I kind of had this relationship with the Lord where I talked with him all day long. I wasn't like, okay, I'm just going to do a few minutes with the Lord in the morning and say goodnight prayer. I needed God all day long because seriously, I didn't know what I was doing.

And so, you know, I'd be helping with homework, but underneath I'd be having this conversation with the Lord. Lord, I need you to help me to listen.

Speaker 1

Right now it's Paul saying, pray without ceasing. And I think as a young mom, I did the same thing because I didn't have these long periods of time by myself. So I learned to just.

Speaker 2

Time by yourself.

Speaker 1

Zero time.

Speaker 3

Bathroom, Right, exactly.

Speaker 2

And they come in with you.

Speaker 1

And I think that's one of the sweet parts of God training us. He always uses every stage of our lives. And that was the stage I learned to talk to God all day about everything.

Speaker 3

Yes, yes. And to go back to your question about when did I learn this, I think what I wanna stress here is it wasn't a one-time learning. You know, it was when I was sobbing on my knees before the Lord because my little negotiator had negotiated all week and I didn't feel like I had the upper hand before the Lord.

When our son, I realized that he had cheated on a test and really didn't need to cheat on any test because he was really smart. You know, it was dealing with a teenager who, you know, was telling me I wasn't listening to her.

And even now with our adult kids, you know, you mentioned at the beginning of the show how your kids came to you. Steve and I sat down last year with our kids and said, okay, you're all here, let's talk about it. What did we do right? But what do you wish we had done differently? Because we want them to feel heard as adults.

Speaker 1

Right.

Speaker 3

And our kids are very verbal, so they are very honest with us. You know, that these are some of the things you did wrong. You know, what'd they say?

Speaker 2

What'd you hear?

Speaker 3

One of the things that we did wrong is they said, you know, mom, you got too defensive about things when we would confront you. And I know that about myself. You know, when somebody confronts you, it's easy to kind of just pull in and get defensive and try to defend yourself and talking too much.

For me, for Steve, it was like, dad, you were so wrapped up in ministry that you didn't always show us what it looks like to be friends with unbelievers and have them in our home. You know, and we wish you had done that differently.

You know, I mentioned this in the book. We wanted to raise emotionally and spiritually healthy kids who could deal with their emotions. But neither Steve nor I grew up knowing how to deal with emotions in a healthy way.

Speaker 1

This is Dave and I. Exactly.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And part of it is our baggage that we carried in. Because emotions and feelings, they were never important.

Speaker 3

Yes.

Speaker 1

And so they were never acknowledged. And if anything, you get beyond that, you're like, hey, let's not sit there.

And I did that as a mom too. I'm watching my kids now as adults with their kids, and if their son or their daughter is upset and crying, I felt uncomfortable when my kids did that.

So I would say, it's okay. I would try to change the subject and like, you're gonna be fine. Or I would be very analytical of why it will be fine. Instead of letting them feel.

Yeah, I didn't like them to be sad. And so I'm always rushing them out of that.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And in your book, you talk about help them find their feelings.

Speaker 3

Yeah. And I had to grow as this as a mother too, you know, and one of the ways you do this is giving them permission. I grew up with messages all the time, stop crying. Why are you crying? Me too. And I was like, okay, I don't want to give that to my kids. So when they would cry, I would cry, too. And then Steve would say, well, don't you cry too? You're going to make it worse. But actually, I think that's my way of offering empathy, you know?

But I think the emotion where Steve and I struggled a lot was anger. There are so many messed up messages about anger. In my home, I wasn't allowed to express any anger. It was wrong. Flat out wrong. Unless you were parents.

Speaker 1

Ungodly, probably.

Speaker 3

Right? Yeah. In Steve's home. And he was raised on the mission field, so he went to boarding school and had another whole layer there, you know, but he was taught all too, like, well, we don't want to be angry. You know, we don't want to be angry.

So we have these kids and they get angry sometimes, you know, and it's like, okay, do you correct them for being angry? And then you find yourself as a mom or a dad getting angry. And what I learned about anger, again, this was great. Gradual along the way is anger is usually a secondary emotion, and so there's usually something else going on.

So what I like to tell parents is when your kid is throwing a fit on the floor, toddlers, are they hungry? Are they tired? Are they feeling left out? What's driving that anger? But then give them language to express their emotions.

Because the bottom line is Jesus experienced. And so he expressed anger. He wept at Lazarus' tomb, he flipped tables in the temple. I mean, we would maybe send him for anger management classes. Right. But we've got to give our kids the tools to handle their emotions, and we have to learn how to handle our own emotions. Like, what's driving this feeling in me?

Speaker 2

Hey, before we. Let me ask you, is this hitting home with you? I'll tell you, man, we we get it.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Because raising kids can be hard.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And sometimes we have more questions than answers. So we pulled together some of our most helpful parenting pieces into one spot.

Speaker 2

Yeah. And you can get your free copy right now. Let me tell you how.

Go to familylife.com parenting help. Let me say it again. Go to familylife.com/parentinghelp and you can get some of the best stuff we have on parenting.

And I can promise you it's going to help.

Speaker 3

Our little grandson, Noah. When he was 3, his sister scribbled all over his art project. And Noah was so frustrated, so he flipped the chair over and he told Kinley. You know, he pushed her away, and his mom went off to deal with Kinley.

And I was talking to Noah, and I was like, "Noah, are you frustrated?" Frustrated means that you're really upset that somebody wrecked your project. And he says, "Yeah, Mimi, I am." I said, "Can you say frustrated?" And he said it, and I wasn't sure he got it.

You know, later in the day, he had a friend over, and the little sisters wrecked their car track that they were building. Both little boys, three and a half at the time, came running out into the family room, and they were dancing all over the floor saying, "I'm frustrated. I'm frustrated."

Speaker 1

So you're teaching them how to feel, and you're giving them words to express it.

Speaker 3

Right. That's really good. We have to, because your kids are going to grow up, and they are going to feel anger, they are going to feel hurt, they are going to feel sad, they are going to feel lonely, and they need those words.

Speaker 1

That's really good.

Speaker 2

I feel like Ann did that really well. You taught our boys how to feel.

I mean, I know you're sitting there thinking you didn't, but I remember walking in the kitchen many times and thinking, I wouldn't be doing what you're doing right now.

When they were frustrated or angry, you just stop and go, okay, let's talk.

Speaker 1

Well, I would say, tell me what you're feeling.

Speaker 3

And that's a good question. And a lot of times, kids can't tell you what they're feeling, but as they get used to that word and they grow up, then they can tell you what they're feeling.

Speaker 1

We actually talked about that before they would go to bed. We had a time where we would talk about, tell us the best thing that happened today.

Speaker 3

You've probably done that. You did that, too. We would do it at the dinner.

Speaker 1

Time, and what's the hardest thing that happened today? And then I said, when you tell me the best thing, I want you to put a feeling with it.

Speaker 3

Oh, that's good. I love that.

Speaker 1

And it can't be fine. And if it is anger. And we would teach that anger is a second motion, what was behind the anger, and especially for boys, being able to communicate and girls, this is what I feel like.

To take that and put a word with it is important, I think. And just to take the time. And I know when you're putting your kids to bed at night, you're thinking, I just want them to go to sleep. I want to have a few minutes to myself.

But to take that time, because the dinner table, I think that's a great time. Bedtime's great because they don't always want to go to sleep and they're willing to talk, then I wish I would have done that more.

But I think it's really good because those are tools they'll take into their marriage and into their adulthood. With friends.

Speaker 3

Yeah, absolutely. And with the things that we wish we had done better, I think we all have those feelings. You know, there are so many times where I'll be like, oh, I wish I had done this different or better.

You know, apologizing to our adult kids has been hugely pivotal for us. You know, apologizing for, look, I'm sorry I didn't handle that well. And apologizing to your kids as you're raising them in the home, you know, I mean, I remember there was a night where our teenage daughter was really struggling, and she was walking through an eating disorder at the time. I got down on my knees next to her bed, and I said, I'm sorry, because I feel like I modeled this for you, because I was always on the next diet. I was always talking about fat labels and calories and whatnot.

But the power of an apology is huge. The night that we gathered our adult kids around and said, what did we do wrong? What did we do right? The thing that they said we did right was you apologized a lot when you were wrong. And that apparently stuck with them, you know.

I want to talk for just a second to the listener out there who maybe doesn't have a great relationship right now with their teen or their young adult or their adult. I want you to know that an apology goes a long way. So you take the first step, be on your knees in prayer first, but then go to that child or that adult and say, hey, I want to apologize for. And be very, very specific. X, Y, or Z, and then say, will you forgive me? That's the pivotal question that often opens the bridge to that child's heart.

Speaker 2

And at the same time, they may not be able to initially. It might take a while, it might take years. You can't expect it, you know, if it's a deeper wound, you know, will you forgive me? Doesn't mean you have to right now.

Speaker 3

Right, exactly.

Speaker 2

But are you willing to go on that journey?

Speaker 1

I don't think it ever ends either. One of our sons was saying, like, "Mom, when I'm talking about what I'm feeling, I don't want you just to say, 'Well' and have an answer to it."

Well, this is happening. And if he was expressing such sorrow, I would say, "Well, there are good things that are happening too."

Yeah, you see how I, you want.

Speaker 3

To try to fix it, right?

Speaker 1

As a mom, I totally fix. I get it.

Speaker 3

I do too.

Speaker 1

And so I really, as I read your book, I thought, oh, I'm getting it now. I just need to sit in it. I need to sit in it with him and say, I'm sorry that you're feeling like that.

And sometimes he'll say, mom, you've apologized so many times. You just need to start listening. Like, just listen to me. But I feel like we're always learning and God is taking layers off and continuing to instruct us.

But even I feel like I was good at asking good questions. But one of the things you're talking about in the book is you're saying, ask great questions but don't interrogate.

Speaker 3

Yeah, you gotta make questions fun because we've all been there, right? You know, your kid comes home from school and what's the first question out of your mouth? Do you have homework tonight? No, they don't want to answer that question. You know, so we've got to make question asking fun and it needs to be part of the life of the family.

So maybe at the dinner table, you're saying to your six-year-old son, you know, when did you feel like a superhero today? Or, you know, when were you kind to somebody in your class today? Or what do you love most about your friends? What do you think makes a good friend?

Really learning to ask them questions is so important for two reasons. Number one, it gives you a window into your child's heart. You know, one of the games that we like to play is "Would You Rather." You know, would you rather climb a tree or go on a hike? Would you rather ride an ATV or go swimming?

Speaker 2

Yes. Hike atv.

Speaker 3

Yes. Yes. Yes. You sound like my husband.

So. But the. Would you rather. Helps you understand your child's heart more.

You know, I remember we were playing this with some of our grandkids, and we were like, would you rather be smart or pretty? And our little granddaughter jumped up and said, pretty. And our daughter said, well, there you have it, you know, but it gives you a window into their heart and their soul, you know?

And so question asking is really an important part of family life.

Speaker 1

I'm thinking about when one of our sons was in high school, and sometimes I would ask questions to interrogate what was happening.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And it was out of my own.

Speaker 2

Like a spy.

Speaker 1

Yeah, it's a spy. Out of my own fear.

And so he was talking at the dinner table, and he said, "I did this thing with this one guy, and here's what I say." Oh, isn't he that bad kid who's always in trouble that smokes pot? That's what I say.

Why do I say that? Because I'm fearful. Like, oh, no, are you becoming friends with that kid? And now I want you to know how I'm judging him and how I'm. And he's a bad kid. And stay far away.

And it was so funny. I think CJ was maybe 16 at school.

Speaker 2

It was our old time, was first born. And he. I'll never forget this. Yeah.

Speaker 1

He says, so, mom, he smokes pot once in a while. Does that make him a bad kid? Is he bad because he smokes pot? And I was just like, I'm so busted right now because he caught what I was doing.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

I was interrogating. I was judging, and it was all out of my. And so I think the words we speak as we listen to our kids and they're sharing. I was manipulating the whole thing. Yes. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 3

I do. And so when we ask questions, we can't ask with an ulterior mode of like, I'm really trying to figure out what in the world you were doing at that party last night.

It's like our kids would say, well, mom, do you really want to know the answer? Or are you trying to, you know, fish for some other thing here?

Because let's get that out in the open. Are we lucky that we have kids that will confront us?

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 3

What about.

Speaker 1

What about kids that don't, you know, that hold it inside.

Speaker 3

Okay. And so this is a big topic because there are some kids that you really have difficulty getting them to talk. There's actually something called selective mutism, where kids are very, very shy and where they won't talk very much. There are some ideas in the book for that, and one of them is to give your child enough time to respond.

You know, if you're an extrovert like me, you want to dive in and help with the answer. So, for example, your child gets in the backseat of the car after school, and you're saying, "How was your day?" Count to 10 or 15 and give them the space to answer that. Don't dive in and say, "Oh, well, you know, that's what I would do. Yeah, me too." We have to learn to give these kids the time to respond. They don't do well with like, gunfire questions.

For instance, asking, "Okay, what happened in gym? Oh, what happened in math?" can be overwhelming. It's like, "Wait, you're confusing me. You're giving me too many questions at once," so slow it down.

One of the things, and this is going to seem unrelated to listening, but it's so not in my life, that the Holy Spirit really had to do and change in me was I realized that I lived my life with a continual sense of inner hurry. I was always in a hurry.

Speaker 1

I'm still like that.

Speaker 3

Me too. And God is still working on me, you know.

And I remember this profound moment where I was reading my Bible one morning and I realized Jesus never turned to the disciples and said, "Would you guys hurry up and get your sandals on? We're running late." I mean, really, that was profound to me.

And I thought, I'm always telling these kids, "Hurry up and get in the van, hurry up, we're running late for church, hurry up, we gotta go to school or to clubs or whatever."

And that sense of hurry does not encourage conversation. And so I had to. And I have to slow that down in my soul.

Speaker 1

I remember reading a book years ago by Jean Lush, and she was talking about her nine-year-old daughter. She could tell her daughter was feeling some real angst. And so she was just trying to probe it out, like, and she thought, I have things to do.

Yeah, come on, tell me what it, what's going on? Like, what's happening? And so she's interrogating, and her 9-year-old was quiet.

And then after a while, she said, "Mom, I need you to lie down in your soul."

Speaker 3

Oh, I love that.

Speaker 1

Before I can talk to you. And Jean in the book says, I realized I'm always in a rush. I'm always on to the next thing. And that daughter felt and I needed to Just rest and sit with her before she would open up her soul to me. Isn't that good?

Speaker 3

That's so good. You know, several. Even in the season of life, there are several times a day where I feel that similar inner angst. Like, oh, I'm in a hurry. I'm in a hurry.

And I literally will pause and say, okay, why am I feeling rushed right now? You know? And then I invite Jesus into that moment and say, Lord Jesus, calm my soul, calm the inner angst I feel right now.

Help me to slow down and to be able to listen and be present in this moment. That's good, you know?

Speaker 2

And I would say, for me, I don't know if I represent most men, but I think it's easier to be in a hurry, it's easier to be rushed than to be intimate with my son. And so it's like, I want to listen, I want to hear his heart, but I really don't, because if I do, it's going to be intimate, and it's scary. I'm just being honest. It's like, I'll run to the next task. I'll go to my office and I'll pick up my phone and do whatever.

Listening so your child will talk. Part of me is like, nah, I'd rather not, because I don't know where that's going to go. And yet I would also say to the parent, listening, this is the most important thing you'll do today, is listen in such a way that your child will open up. And it may be intimate and it may be scary, and it may not go the way you want, but it is the best thing you'll do today.

All those other things, as important as they are, they're probably not as important as being the dad or mom that your son or daughter is really longing for you to be. And it has a lot to do with saying, this son, this daughter, matters so much that I'm going to listen, and they're probably going to talk.

Speaker 4

Listening to our kids is really giving them a gift. It's generosity toward our children in ways that not only blesses them, but blesses us, too. Connections happen, deeper bonds are made, and relationships flourish, all when we close our mouths and attentively open our ears. I love, love, love this, and I can't wait to implement it more with my kids.

I'm Shelby Abbott, and you've been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Becky Harling on Family Life. Today, Becky has written a book called *How to Listen So Your Kids Will Talk: Deepen Your Connection and Strengthen Their Confidence*. You can get your copy right now by going online to familylifetoday.com or clicking on the link in the show notes. Or feel free to give us a call at 800-358-6329. Again, the number is 800-F as in family, L as in life, and then the word today.

Do you follow us on social media? Well, head over to Instagram and look us up at familylifeinsta or find us on Facebook. Just search for Family Life for more regular encouragement about marriage and parenting.

Now, coming up tomorrow, are you finding yourself in a recurring conflict with your spouse? Well, Deborah Faleta is going to be here to offer valuable insight into the underlying issues that keep resurfacing in your marriage. That's tomorrow. We hope you'll join us.

On behalf of David Ann Wilson, I'm Shelby Abbott. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a donor-supported production of Family Life, a Cru ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.