The Christian Worldview

David Wheaton: Praise God that He gives victory over Pride Month. That is the topic discussed today right here on The Christian Worldview radio program, where the mission is to sharpen the biblical worldview of Christians and to proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ. I'm David Wheaton, the host. The Christian Worldview is a nonprofit, listener-supported radio ministry. Our website is thechristianworldview.org, and the rest of our contact information will be given throughout today's program. As always, thank you for your notes of encouragement, financial support, and lifting us up in prayer.

Before we preview today's topic, just a brief update that the digital version of The Christian Worldview Journal for May and June has been sent to Christian Worldview partners who receive it by email. The print version will be shipping later this week, so be sure to look for it. Sadly, June has become synonymous with so-called Pride Month, where sexual sin and rebellion against God are not repented of but celebrated. Parades, often with lewd behavior, march through the streets, rainbow flags are flown, and the media and organizations trip over themselves to promote what God's Word everywhere condemns.

The lie that has been swallowed is that people are born, even created by God, whatever way they identify in the LGBTQ alphabet. Our guest today is Pastor Darren Mell of Made Free Ministries. He knows firsthand that this is a lie from the pit of hell. God's rescue of Darren out of homosexuality highlights the lavish grace of God, but also how errant churches can confuse and keep people in their sin. Let's get straight to the interview with Pastor Darren Mell.

Darren, thank you for coming on The Christian Worldview radio program today. I want to start out by just reading a couple paragraphs from your bio. It says, "Darren Mell's testimony is a clear narrative of Christ's rescuing mercy and sanctifying power. After being drawn into occult practices as a teen and experiencing spiritual torment, he cried out to Jesus at age 17 and began to read scripture seriously, where he came under conviction that his same-sex desires and the 'gay Christian' framework were incompatible with repentance and obedience to Christ.

Over time, the Lord used faithful Christian relationships, prayer, and the steady ministry of the Word to call him out of an LGBT identity and into a life marked by repentance, integrity, and perseverance. God answered specific prayers that led to leaving a same-sex relationship and ultimately marrying his wife, Rhoda, in 2005. They now serve the Lord together and are raising their two children as a living testimony of God's restoring grace and new creation power in Christ." Darren, fill in more details about God's rescue of your life and how He brought you to saving faith.

Darren Mell: I'm smiling because the enemy wanted to steal the hope that I had growing up, wanting to get married and have kids. But when the same-sex attraction and the teasing all that stuff came together and created a gay identity in high school, it was really confusing. Having to come out gay and give up that dream of having a family, I smile now because the devil's been defeated.

I just grew up as a cultural Christian. We went to church, I went to Sunday school, and I got confirmed in the church, but I only knew that there was a Noah's Ark and Jesus died on a cross and was risen. I didn't really know much other than that and that the Bible was what we studied as the Word of God. The occult practices dabble in the demonic, and you will get the fruit of that. I was having night terrors and being attacked by demons at night.

I saw at the time a bunch of my friends become Christians and give up some of the things that we were doing. I asked them about these ghosts that were attacking me, and they said that they were demons and Jesus had power over that. So after one time I got attacked, I ran through the high school looking for those Christian friends. I found Lindsay and I said, "Lindsay, I need Jesus. I'm being attacked by demons. Save me."

She said, "I've never done this before, but you need to pray to receive Jesus." So she walked me through a prayer. I started going to youth group, got rid of behaviors of participating in occultish things, and understood that the Bible was the Word of God. I saw people's lives change. I was filled with the Holy Spirit reading the Bible, and it was bringing me conviction.

You read Romans and you read 1 Corinthians 6, and you realize that this same-sex attraction, this lust after men, is a sin. I didn't know when I came to Christ; I didn't come to Christ because I knew I was a sinner per se, but more the demonized man set free. Now I realize I have sin in my life and this became the sin that I was focused on. I went to my youth pastor and my pastor and told them what I was struggling with.

They were like, "Well, the Bible says it's a sin, so let's just not do that." It was the "just don't do it" model at first. That didn't work for me, so my pastor took me to a ministry, and it went over my head. It was John Polk who was there speaking. He was once gay and now married. Not really knowing how to deal with this same-sex attraction, I just prayed it away, prayed against it. "God give me strength to not do it."

It eventually led into being discouraged in my faith. I had some traumatic things happen to me, and I just adopted the gay identity and lived as a gay Christian. Of course, when I came out and told my fellowship where I got saved that I was going to be a gay Christian, I got Matthew 18'd and disfellowshipped. I did find a gay-affirming church, and I recognize I could only push the Holy Spirit down to my toes. I knew that I was convicted that homosexuality was wrong, but I didn't have the answers on how to reconcile what I was feeling.

I told my friend in my church, "You know, Darren, you don't have to behave that way. You can be celibate." I said, "I want to be loved and I want to love like God put something in me, and I don't want to be single. I'm not called to be alone." That's when I went into the gay community to find love. While in the gay community, I had a scare with HIV, so I settled down and tried to find a monogamous relationship and lived that way for several years.

The scripture says that God doesn't break a bent reed or snuff out a smoldering wick. This was a time my church turned me over to Satan for the destruction of my flesh. I've experienced that. I had a brother in the church who would call me, keep in connection with me, just ask me how I'm doing and encourage me in the Lord. He said, "You've got a call on your life for ministry," and I was like, "Yeah, I'm going to church." He knew I was going to a gay-affirming church.

He invited me to go to a prayer conference. At that prayer conference, he asked me, "Darren, do you really think you're gay?" I said, "I don't know. I've been trying to pray it away but it's not changing." I said, "Lord, if I'm not supposed to be gay, break me up with my boyfriend." That was my sincere prayer. My friend didn't leave me there. He said, "Well, Darren, if you were to get married, who would you marry?" He knows full well I'm in the gay community, not exactly looking for a wife.

I said, "Well, there is this one woman, Rhoda, that I know and she's filled the Holy Spirit." I prayed, "Lord, if you want me to be straight, work it out so I can marry Rhoda." After that prayer meeting, it was a prayer in faith. I went home and my boyfriend broke up with me that day. So you know that the Lord answered your prayer. I wasn't excited about it, but it did work out that I proposed to Rhoda and we did get married.

It was about two years after that prayer. There was some transition time of faith growing and the Lord orchestrating, being the perfecter of my faith that He is, orchestrating things that Rhoda and I would grow in friendship and realize that we have the same heart in Christ and just really felt like we could pursue a relationship. So we got married. I came into the marriage with a gay porn addiction. I came into it with same-sex attraction. She fully knew me as a gay man before we got married.

I just said, "Lord, the sexuality thing's up to you. We're going to get married in faith." I promise you, I didn't get married to make myself straight. I really gave it to the Lord and I said, "I don't know how this is going to work out, but we both believe that we're going to get married." I didn't limit God and say I'm going to be gay married to a lesbian and we're just going to live this way. I said, "Lord, whatever you want, we're going to trust you for that."

We had two miscarriages, but we did have Sebastian. While Sebastian was in the womb, I was on a business trip and I cheated on Rhoda in our marriage with a man. I think that was the real moment where I realized I was a wretched sinner before a holy God. I knew that I had broken a covenant and as much as I thought homosexuality was bad, cheating on my wife was the sin that I just had a vow in my life that would never be me.

Here it was. I cried out to God and asked for mercy, and I repented to Rhoda right away. She received me back and she said, "No, a mind's going to get taken out by the enemy." There's a whole bunch more there. From that point on, I told God, "Look, I've been praying with my pastor for five years to get over this pornography addiction. I've been praying for 20 years trying to pray the gay away. God, give me strength."

I'm like, "God, I know you're good. I've seen the miracles. I've seen radical miracles in the little ones and the big ones. I know that you're good, your Word is true, but I do not know how to live in holiness. You're going to have to teach me." Then the next year, God taught me what grace was, costly grace. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Cost of Discipleship versus cheap grace versus hyper-grace. I was almost hyper-grace, but not quite.

Grace that only is self-control. God will give you strength to not sin. Well, in my weakness, He's strong. I label that whole prayer "God give me strength" as self-righteousness. That's the 98% club. You can only get to 98% purity and then it just falls apart. Then God addressed my father wound, my peer wound with girls, with boys, brought up the fact that I got raped, I was molested, some things that I thought were my fault were really the enemy.

God revealed to me that it's the evil desires in my heart that He wants to change. My entire doctoral experience has been praying against the devil anytime I'm tempted. So all my evil desires I was projecting onto the enemy and rebuking him for tempting me. I never knew that God actually wanted to sanctify my heart and give me a new heart. I know it sounds crazy after 20 years in being in a church for 14 years and radically chasing Jesus.

But these were the things that the Lord taught me and the predominantly it was body shaming, being so thin as a teenager. I couldn't even bench press the bar, 45 pounds. It was so embarrassing. I was othered. For lack of better term, I was othered and labeled gay. I was in theater, I was nice, I wasn't as aggressive, I didn't like sports. The Lord revealed all those and healed me of them, reprocessed all that trauma, to use psychological terms, reprocessing that with a secure connection in Jesus.

In Him and in His Word, I started reading the Bible instead of focusing on praying against my sin. I started looking at God and praying, "God, change me to be like you. Create in me a clean heart. Sanctify me." So the ontology problem. I really thought, because everybody told me and even my family affirmed the claim, that I was gay ontologically, as a being, an immutable trait. When you're stuck with that lie, it does a lot to you. But Jesus set you free with the truth. So there's my testimony.

David Wheaton: There was a lot there that's really amazing, the journey that God brought you through through so many years. Just a quick follow-up. So you really think you were born again in your late teens, but there was a years-long struggle after that, before you understood the resources God has provided in His Word and through the Holy Spirit to overcome the sins of your flesh that you were struggling with before salvation?

Darren Mell: Absolutely. I do believe that I was filled the Holy Spirit upon belief and I was saved when I prayed with Lindsay. I go to Romans 10. I had a zeal for the Lord, but not in accordance with knowledge. So I created my own form of righteousness. I'd say in hindsight, it was more morality. As I came into the knowledge of God, He grew me in faith, so that when I went through this trial, I would have something grounded to land on, which was Jesus.

All my doctrines kind of got blown away as being built on sand, and I said, "God, put me on the solid rock and let every pillar be built by Jesus." I think it's a maturity that 2 Corinthians 7:9-10 talks about, where it says the sorrow that God desires leads to repentance without regret, but worldly sorrow leads to death. By grace alone, God's grace carried me through that trial of cheating on Rhoda, because I had five other brothers in our church that were same-sex lust strugglers and that were struggling against it and they're all now living back in the lifestyle. So I know what the Lord has given me is special. I don't mean like I'm special, but to be given the grace of God and the knowledge of the truth is a gift, and the enduring truth and faith is a gift. I cherish the Word and the Holy Spirit's gift of conviction and teaching.

David Wheaton: Conviction of sin is where it all begins really for whether you're in a homosexual lifestyle or heterosexual, you must be convicted over your sin, otherwise the gospel was not going to make any sense or have any desire for you when it's presented to you when you realize you're a sinner and in such threat of judgment, eternal judgment from a holy God. The only response is to repent and come to Him on His terms, repentance and faith in His Son, no other way.

So thank you for sharing that, Darren. Darren Mell is our guest today here on The Christian Worldview. Just looking back, I know you had some lies told you about who you were as a person. What is your view now of the assertion that is so commonly made that people are born gay and that's who they are? Pastor Darren Mell of Made Free Ministries will answer that question after this short break. I'm David Wheaton. You are listening to The Christian Worldview radio program.

David Wheaton: "The glorying in destruction of our more recent iterations of the pro-abortion movement, that goes beyond disenchantment. That's desecration. Why does society find that exhilarating? Because there's nothing more exhilarating than having the blood of God on your hands. Defying those things that God says need to be followed. Trashing the sacred, and there's nothing more sacred than those who bear His image on the face of the planet."

That was Carl Trueman talking about his new book, The Desecration of Man: How the Rejection of God Degrades Our Humanity. The book is hardcover, 256 pages, and retails for $29. For a limited time, you can order it for a donation of any amount at thechristianworldview.org or by calling 1-888-646-2233 or by writing to Box 401 Excelsior, Minnesota 55331.

David Wheaton: The classroom and the dorm room students encounter at secular and, yes, Christian colleges lead to as many as 50% of students who profess upon entering college to be born-again Christians not saying the same four years later. So how can students avoid spiritual shipwreck? In my book, University of Destruction: Your Game Plan for Spiritual Victory on Campus, I give a scouting report on the three pillars of peril in college and provide a game plan to be an overcomer.

This would be a meaningful gift for the high school or college students in your life, and there's a free study guide available as well. University of Destruction is softcover, 176 pages, and retails for $17. For a limited time, you can order signed copies for a donation of any amount to The Christian Worldview. Bulk discounts are also available. Go to thechristianworldview.org or call 1-888-646-2233.

David Wheaton: Welcome back to The Christian Worldview. I'm David Wheaton. Be sure to visit thechristianworldview.org where you can sign up for our weekly email and The Christian Worldview Journal print publication, order resources for adults and children, and support the ministry. Our topic today is Praise God that He Gives Victory Over Pride Month. Our guest is Pastor Darren Mell of Made Free Ministries. Just looking back, I know you had some lies told you about who you were as a person. What is your view now of the assertion that is so commonly made that people are born gay and that's who they are?

Darren Mell: I went through that after I married Rhoda. I did go through is this something that's going to change or is it going to just be here forever? The "bornness" way did come across my plate. I went and read the APA's 2009 Task Force on Sexual Orientation Change Effort, and they come out right off the bat and say there's no scientific evidence that you're either born that way or that you're made that way or whatever. They go in and they talk about a bunch of stuff and they say there's anecdotal evidence that there's harm and that it doesn't work.

But in that report which nobody quotes, nobody cares about but it matters, there's also anecdotal evidence of people who are religiously motivated do experience change. Because they spent so much time framing up religion as the stigma against LGBT, I could read the veiled words; it was Christianity and knowing that homosexuality is a sin. So I come into the "born gay" argument while believing that God created me male or female and that God has said homosexuality is sin.

I'm married to Rhoda, I already am working through sexuality, I experienced change here in the attractions, but is this going to be a struggle that I'm going to have where it's just my one wife and not that I was looking to go lusting after other women, but am I born gay? That's the question at hand. To me, it was enough that you said that some religious people experience change.

Now with the conversion therapy ban overturned at the Supreme Court, one of the best arguments that they used was Lisa Diamond, who herself is a lesbian and was part of that task force, my understanding, that wrote that paper at Emory University. She came out and said, "Look, we've got to stop saying that people are born gay because it's not true." They know that and she said, "And they, we, know that, so we just got to stop using it because it's going to bite us in the butt."

So the research shows that sexual orientation is fluid; it's not immutable. But if you say that you're born gay and can't change and that's the predominant narrative in all of everything. Well, yeah, people told me that I was gay. I was labeled it all the time. When you're a child, your identity is being formed by your experiences in life. My identity wasn't informed by scripture and by God's truth; it was informed by my life's experience. I questioned my sexuality and found out, yeah, I'm not really gay. Here's the journey out. But talking about that is quote-unquote "conversion therapy" and will cause stigma, and I get it from outside the church and inside the church. Don't talk about that that way because not everybody experiences that. But everybody can, by faith and grace in Christ.

David Wheaton: I want to talk about two recent stories that have come out in the news of very prominent people with regard to the homosexual movement. The first is Sam Allberry. He's a British pastor, author, popular speaker for The Gospel Coalition and Desiring God, John Piper's ministry. He's single and spoke often on the issue of sexuality. He studied at Oxford, he moved to America, and he was one of the pastors at Emmanuel Church in Nashville where Russell Moore, the head of Christianity Today, serves along with Gavin Ortlund, so it's a well-known church down there.

He was single. He liked to use the term "same-sex attracted Christian" but celibate. So he argued, and I'm quoting this from an online source, he argued that God calls Christians with same-sex attraction to celibacy and faithfulness rather than acting on those desires or embracing a gay identity. I believe that's called Side B view of homosexuality, and I'll have you explain that in a second. One more short paragraph, Darren. In May 2026, still quoting here, he resigned from Emmanuel Church and was quote "disqualified from gospel ministry" after further evidence or admission, I'm not sure which one it was, that he had a quote "inappropriate relationship with a man."

First discovered in 2024, he resigned then from The Gospel Coalition and also from the Tim Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics. So Sam Allberry was a very notable figure promoting Side B or that you can be a same-sex attracted Christian. In other words, don't act on it, be celibate, but this remains your identity; you have these sinful desires and that's just who you are. So Darren, could you explain for us what the Side B view is that Allberry taught and how prevalent that is in the evangelical church and mindset today and why it's unbiblical?

Darren Mell: I'll start with the label Side B and give you some contrast because it'll set some quick distinctions. Side B is side B of a coin, so Side A, Side B. Side A gay Christianity—Matthew Vines, Brandan Robertson—it's the "God created you gay and affirms it, love is love, gay marriage," so that's Side A gay practicing. Side B is gay celibacy. They both have an ontological belief that you are immutably gay, one created by God, one created by sin. So it's two sides of a coin, A and B.

Side B with Tim Keller and those parties that have been promoting Sam Allberry, Preston Sprinkle, Bill Henson with Posture Shift, etc., Restore Minnesota for example brought in Preston Sprinkle, Side B, into Minnesota. Several large churches in Minnesota teach Side B. What Side B is, it's those who are touched by same-sex attraction, which I would say is same-sex lust. But if you're touched by that, you're called to celibacy. I lived that, I tried to live that, and all love towards Sam, he's a brother in Christ.

He has some bad doctrines, in my opinion, some that I've passed through, and Rosaria Butterfield, I'll just name drop here, her book got me from Side B to the hope of Side X, which is where I'm at now. Ex-gay, transformed by Christ, being born again, made new, redeemed, sanctified. So Side B, David, we're both in Minnesota, and I think it's best summed up with an article that I wrote for Agapé First Ministries.

The epitome of it is when one of the pastors in town of the largest church in Minnesota was teaching Side B. It was literally August 2022, and he puts up 1 Corinthians 6:11 and he took out the word "sanctification." "Such were some of you, but you were washed and you were justified." He took out sanctification. Honestly, that is the best way to present Side B, is that you will be gay the rest of your life, God will give you grace to not act out.

Sam, unfortunately, he was brought in as an associate pastor to a church. This is my understanding, is that he disclosed the relationship with this person, but it wasn't disqualifying, but later more information came forward. So that's all the detail that Emmanuel put out there was that more information came forward. But the doctrine itself is an ontological problem. The bait and switch.

It comes in with the words "historical biblical sexual ethic." Well, we all agree that homosexuality is sin, the behavior is sin, but the identity is not. So in Side B gay Christianity you've got things like mixed-orientation marriages. So you're always going to be same-sex lusting, but you may have attractions just for your wife, but you still are struggling and that's just going to be the way that it is, or "I'm a gay Christian but I'm celibate."

Just that language "gay Christian." We don't have to go into detail about how that doesn't work. But that's pretty much the doctrine, and it's a good middle ground because it agrees on the morality and it keeps people from actually acting out in sin, but it kneecaps them to sanctification. It's saying, "Well, God will do sanctification for teen challenge." Okay, teen challenge gets to come in and say how God delivered them and they have no more desire for drugs, no more desire for alcohol, it's totally they're set free.

But not with homosexuality. That's who you are. Once gay always gay. I don't believe in "once an alcoholic always an alcoholic." Teen Challenge came to our church and sang that choir and gave their testimony. I want the hope in the church to be restored and the lie that's bait-and-switched is "we'll now accept this ontology, well they really are gay and you just have to have compassion, and if you don't listen to them and understand them, then you're not really ministering to them."

You need to take a missional approach, get to know their culture and their language. Here's the thing, Dave. I fully believe that when you repent of homosexuality, there is no cultural relevance. Nothing is tied to sodomy or gender confusion that's redeemable. End of story. You didn't do something because you're a sodomite, you did something because God gave you talents. Anything that's good came from God, not from sin.

David Wheaton: For you as a person now, if you sense a wrong desire come up inside of you for homosexuality or even heterosexuality, someone outside your wife, does that happen to you still, and how do you have victory over it?

Darren Mell: Our desires are tied to our needs and our beliefs in how to get those needs met. My same-sex attraction was tied to body shaming. I lusted after a body that I thought I couldn't have, and my pastor took me to the gym and we worked out. I grew a chest and I could bench press my weight. My body changed. That body shame, that I was something else, that I could never have that body that I lusted after, broke. It just broke.

So as we remain in the Word and in the body, God redeems and sanctifies those things out of us. It is the Word, but then also actual lived experiences, right? So what do we do when we're tempted? Well, it's our evil desires. I don't look at temptation the same way anymore. I teach that it's testing. Because if you go back to the Greek word, it's translated testing or tempting. Jesus had no evil in Him to be tempted with. He was tested and found to be a pure spotless Lamb. He's the only one.

He was like us in every way except He didn't have indwelling sin. I'm set free of condemnation, Romans 8. So when I'm tempted in that I can honestly say before God that I'm not tempted with same-sex lust; that just is not a thing. But I am tempted to not be obedient in the moment, to fear, to doubt, and other things. So I look at it as Jesus on the cross broke the veil; I now have access to the Father, and He's a good Father.

Everything good comes from Him. Anything that I go through, no weapon formed against me is going to prosper, He works out all things for the good. Jesus is interceding before the Father that I would endure through all trials and testings. So anytime I feel the inkling of sin, I recognize it for what it is. There's something in me that the Father's going to sanctify.

So I just go to the Father, I have no condemnation. I go to the Father and say, "Lord, I'm really fearing here," or "I'm really jealous that I'm living with all these problems in my home and my neighbor, you've blessed him and his home is perfect." Like the envy. I will admit, I envy a house that doesn't need a lot of repairs. But wait a minute, I'm envying and I'm not at peace with what I have. My joy begins with gratitude. So there's always a way out in the Word, in what God teaches us and how to be in Christ. That's the hope that we have, is that the Father is faithful to give us what we need, and He will sanctify us.

David Wheaton: Darren, I want to talk about one other notable figure that has had a fall here. His name is Alan Chambers. For those who don't know who Alan Chambers is, again quoting from online, he was a leader of Exodus International. I don't believe that organization's in existence anymore. He folded it in 2013. It was the largest quote-unquote "ex-gay" organization in the world to help homosexuals out of their sin.

Wikipedia said it connected hundreds of ministries that promoted the idea that people could change their sexual orientation through faith, prayer, counseling, and reparative therapy. In 2012-2013, quoting again, Chambers underwent a significant change in his views. He publicly stated the vast majority of people, claiming nearly 100%, 99.9%, do not experience a change in their underlying sexual orientation.

At Exodus's final annual conference in June 2013, he delivered a lengthy apology to the LGBT community for the pain, shame, and harm caused by the organization's teaching and practices. He announced the permanent shutdown of Exodus International, describing it as being trapped in a worldview that was neither biblical nor honoring to people. After closing Exodus, he founded Speak Love with other former leaders, shifting toward promoting grace, dialogue, safer communities.

He wrote a memoir, My Exodus: From Fear to Grace, and later expressed support for same-sex marriage in certain contexts while maintaining a personal faith. Okay, then you come up to just recently. In May 2026, at age 54, Alan Chambers was arrested in Winter Park, Orange County, Florida following an undercover sting operation. Authorities say he spent several months starting in February of 2026 exchanging sexually explicit messages via social media with someone he believed was a 14-year-old boy. It was actually an undercover detective. What are your thoughts on his fall and why do you think professing Christians, which Alan Chambers is, tend to weaken on this issue of homosexuality when the Bible is so clear on it?

Darren Mell: Alan Chambers spent more time apologizing for Exodus or being an apologist for pro-gay theology than he was in the ex-gay ministry in Exodus being a network. That's really important. Exodus didn't do the ministry itself; it partnered with ministries to do stuff for training and that kind of stuff. From what I've interviewed the leaders who were there—and you can talk to Anne Edwards, formerly Anne Polk, Joe Dallas, Robert Gagnon, Stephen Black, Jason Thompson—what was really going on was there was a theological shift in Alan, and he had adopted antinomianism.

Clark Whitten was his pastor, and if you go read it, it's hyper-grace. So hyper-grace is antinomianism—the law doesn't matter, just love. As far as I'm concerned, I don't recognize that as Christianity; I recognize that as false teaching and if you need to say the word apostate, leaving the church and adopting heresies. It's better rejected by the church for a thousand years plus.

What I'd say between Sam and Alan is doctrine matters. Doctrine matters. There is a truth that sets the captive free, and there is a religion of works. Alan getting caught doing what he was doing, if you go read some of the documents, he had called it "forbidden love" with this 14-year-old. Well, there was a forbidden love line in the sand that he walked past already, and that was homosexuality.

The LGBTQ community, their definition of love is "love is love"; it's relative to whatever you say it is. The teaching is consent, as long as you consent. As you start sliding towards hell with doctrine and you're given over to that, yeah, the consequences—God's not going to be mocked. The wages of sin is death. You reap what you sow. That's what it says. These are the doctrines that Alan has been practicing by rejecting the gospel, the power of transformation, the sanctification of Christ, the call of repentance.

I get it. I mean, I get the struggle of working in yourself and saying, "Well, I tried to pray it away and it didn't work, so it's not real." But that's taking your experience and making it the truth. The Wesleyan quadrilateral, you don't put experience at the top. As you turn that around, I believe the Word is going to be at the top. Alan and all of those people have created a tradition of embracing homosexuals, even though he was married to a woman and had children, he supported homosexuality.

So those doctrines are going to lead somewhere; it's Romans 1. You're going to go from one pit to the next, going deeper and deeper into the pit, in deception. That's where they're at. I hope if Alan has a heart for Christ, that this will be his moment of realizing, you know what, this hyper-grace thing leads to hell and that grace isn't about the forgiveness of sins, it's about the transforming of the heart so you don't desire sin, you only desire love and you know what love is. I pray that his heart will be changed. I think Sam is a whole lot closer than Alan is. I don't know where they are, but I know that God redeems and as long as they're alive, mercies are new every day.

David Wheaton: Our guest is Pastor Darren Mell of Made Free Ministries. In the next segment, we'll discuss how the Republican Party has capitulated on the sin of homosexuality. I'm David Wheaton, and you are listening to The Christian Worldview radio program.

David Wheaton: The May/June issue of The Christian Worldview Journal is now available. Cal Beisner of the Cornwall Alliance writes about how our nation can be turned back to honoring and following the Lord through teaching and applying the whole counsel of God. Journalist Alex Newman examines the Orwellian-named Board of Peace that President Trump formed earlier this year and what that portends.

Plus, the insert includes lots of new children's resources for summer. The Christian Worldview Journal is a bi-monthly print and digital publication designed to sharpen your biblical worldview on current events and issues of the faith. The Journal is sent to Christian Worldview partners as a thank you for their support of this radio ministry. To become a Christian Worldview partner or to order an individual issue of the Journal, go to thechristianworldview.org or call 1-888-646-2233 or write to Box 401 Excelsior, Minnesota 55331.

David Wheaton: "The glorying in destruction of our more recent iterations of the pro-abortion movement, that goes beyond disenchantment. That's desecration. Why does society find that exhilarating? Because there's nothing more exhilarating than having the blood of God on your hands. Defying those things that God says need to be followed. Trashing the sacred, and there's nothing more sacred than those who bear His image on the face of the planet."

That was Carl Trueman talking about his new book, The Desecration of Man: How the Rejection of God Degrades Our Humanity. The book is hardcover, 256 pages, and retails for $29. For a limited time, you can order it for a donation of any amount at thechristianworldview.org or by calling 1-888-646-2233 or by writing to Box 401 Excelsior, Minnesota 55331.

David Wheaton: Thanks for joining us on The Christian Worldview. I'm David Wheaton. Today's program and past programs, along with transcripts and short takes, are available at thechristianworldview.org. While there, you can also sign up for our weekly email and The Christian Worldview Journal print publication, order resources, and support the ministry. Our topic today is Praise God that He Gives Victory Over Pride Month, and our guest is Pastor Darren Mell of Made Free Ministries.

Darren, I want to move into a couple other issues that are related to this, and one of them is the direction of the Republican Party in this country. Republicans were known for conservative values and Christian-influenced values. That was kind of one of the legs of the stool of conservatism. But that hasn't been the case in the last, I'm not even sure how many years, probably 20 years probably in the Republican Party.

Nowadays, the Republican Party has softened not only on abortion but also on the issue of homosexuality. There's little opposition to same-sex marriage. It's commonplace to see Republicans who are homosexuals like someone of a very well-known person like Dave Rubin, media personality on the Republican side. He's married to a man so to speak and has children through, I believe through IVF. They chose their children and a woman carried them through surrogacy.

Media influencers like Guy Benson and Fox News and Tammy Bruce. Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent in Trump's cabinet, very visible person in his cabinet, is a homosexual married to a man with children. Rick Grenell's another one, big advisor for Trump. Scott Presler, a big GOP activist, get-the-vote-out person. The question is, what is the problem, Darren, with integrating and platforming homosexuals within the Republican Party? Second part of that question is, because you've been pretty active politically as well in Republican conservative politics, what has been the Republican Party's response to you?

Darren Mell: There's three things I'll answer this with. The first one is that our culture has normalized the ontological belief that people are gay. So it starts right there. Everything goes from there, that you are gay, there's nothing you can do, it's an immutable trait, so let's just move on. What my experience has been is the Libertarian movement has had a big influence over the last 12 years, maybe 16 if I go back far enough, with freedom to who you want to marry, who you want to love.

They bought that and it came in with the Libertarians. So in the Republican Party, in my own BPOU, Basic Political Organizational Unit, the smallest unit, they were trying to run a homosexual in my area and I was beside myself and trying to convince them. The argument there was "big tent," that we have to take this away from the Democrats, and it was the big tent argument back then. The narrative has been "what we need to win."

What I've noticed is as the left moves farther left, every issue gets pulled to the left. I don't agree with this, that the strategy is to just grab on the fringes of theirs to pull those people this way, but the whole thing is going left. So I did leave the Republican Party and I was elected the chair of the Constitution Party because I believe that our votes is the currency of our virtue and that we're not voting to win, we're voting to bring our virtues forward.

We've kind of forgotten what we're accomplishing is that the government is there to protect good and punish evil. The same day that I was elected the chair of the Constitution Party, the Minnesota Republicans confirmed the Log Cabin Republicans as an affiliate, the gay contingency. Then several months later, the national party did. The Constitution Party elected me knowing full well I was a former homosexual and they're like, "No, no, that's actually a good thing."

I did everything I could to bring the constitutional values forward, and I found in Minnesota that the Libertarian concept of "love is love" and "freedom"—how we've arrived at that nationally is it's a Libertarian model. Charlie Kirk was Libertarian. He went on Dave Rubin's show and said, "Look, personally I don't believe in gay marriage, but hey, I don't believe a government should tell you anything. Go ahead, get married, that's good for you."

I just don't think that that's a virtue to extol in our government. I believe that licentiousness will breed cultural decay. Unlimited freedom morally is licentiousness. Freedom needs moral and legal boundaries. I'm not dropping Christian nationalism, but I am dropping that our values matter. In the Constitution Party, yeah, it had everything I believed in and nothing that I didn't believe in.

They even acknowledged Jesus as sovereign in the preamble, not in the plank itself, but in the preamble, just like our preamble of our Constitution is the Declaration of Independence. Our Creator is Jesus, and when we reject that, things start falling apart. There's no such thing as a "conservative homosexual" in my world. If we're not conserving the family and protecting children, what is conserving then? What I've noticed what we're conserving is our pocketbooks. It's just small government; that's all that exists at this point. That's the love of money, it's not the love of your neighbor.

I have spoken in many places to many leaders, and it is clear that the Republican Party has their gay, and you listed them all off, and "gays against groomers" and even in TPUSA and TPUSA Faith, if you go listen to Pastor Rob teach about homosexuality in the big tent and why they embrace it. It just doesn't fly for me; it's not biblical, and I think the concessions that you make for politics is a worldly concession and virtue matters, so I can't give my vote that direction.

David Wheaton: So what do you do about this then, Darren? Do you have a moral litmus test within a party? I mean, it's not just homosexuals within the Republican Party, but there's a lot of heterosexual immoral people who are cheating on their wives and are who are chronic adulterers and fornicators. So how do you develop a coalition to get your values into government when your trying to the coalition has to be full of sinners? What do you do?

Darren Mell: Well, I'm not in the Republican Party, but I could tell you what I've done is I'm a co-founder of cornerstonestandard.com. It's a cornerstone standard to protect families. I put forth resolutions and distributed resolution to individuals in the Republican Party, and I was able to get three platform items added to the platform to protect children and the family. I wasn't even in the Republican Party, I didn't have a vote, but I did the work.

I believe that God calls each of us to do the work that He set before us, Ephesians 2:10, "His workmanship doing works that He's put before me," He's ordained it, and I'll walk in that grace. I'm not a politician today; I'm a pastor. We're actually teaching this in Nehemiah, but it was actually my cousin's church when the pastor was preaching on Nehemiah and I recognized that Nehemiah, it was the people that started rebuilding the wall.

Then the politicians got involved, and then the merchants or the corporations. So to me, we live in a republic. We vote. We don't have a dictator, as much as the left thinks Trump is a dictator, we don't have kings. We're still a representative republic and we get to vote our values. I think that the church has not done its job in teaching and equipping the body with the knowledge of God, the virtues of God, the principles of God, nor being bold in our culture.

I believe that the church should be the conscience of the culture, and we have had decades of "we only speak what we're for, not what we're against." I can quote several leaders in the church in Minnesota that have told me that. "We only love people, we don't call them to repent." Repentance was like a four-letter word in some churches that I've been in or been to. So I think for us, politics is a means of punishing evil.

I'm not a Christian nationalist again in the pejorative, but I believe Psalms 2. The world's trying to break off the fetters and God's laughing at them. He's saying, "You better bow your knee to Jesus lest His wrath come upon you." I think God has allowed things to get as bad as they are. I don't think that America is Sodom and Gomorrah over in Israel; they just had the biggest pride ever in the Dead Sea where Sodom and Gomorrah was.

We've got a very strong divide in this country. So what do we do? We continue to teach the church and equip people with the knowledge and just be the light, and in that, the darkness will be evident and people will be able to see, "You know what, that's not working." If we can get a coalition of people saying, "Stop harming the kids." Let's start there. Trump's been fighting transgenderism and I am so thankful.

The research that they published through HHS has been amazing. The amicus brief that we put together they used at the Supreme Court for that hearing and and we won there. We're going to have a come-to-Jesus with the anti-trans pro-gay conservative movement. I just posted on Facebook this video with Dave Rubin sitting down with liberals, and they were saying, "Well, what about Michael Knowles? He's coming against gay marriage."

I've been saying this when I was in the Republican Party. We're going to have a come-to-Jesus moment. Y'all call it "big tent," right? You call it big tent; I call it leveraging your neighbor. I call it using someone's disposition in sin for a greater purpose or a lesser of two evils. I just hate that proverb, "the lesser of two evils," because we're going to have a come-to-Jesus moment, David, when the quote-unquote "conservative gays" realize that Christians are coming for gay marriage.

Now, Trump isn't, so don't get me wrong. There's going to be a split in this Christian movement, because the next thing that's coming is are we going to fight for the family, for those children, because now Dave Rubin, the surrogacy, IVF, all that stuff, is trafficking children. But they see it as "you accepted me as gay, I want to have a family, I wanted to have love, you gave me love, I want to have a family, let me have a family."

We've gone down this road. So at what point do you draw the line that they're going to say, "Wait a minute, you said you loved me but now you don't, you hypocrite?" It comes down to Romans 12:9. "Let your love be without hypocrisy, hate what is evil, cling to what is good." We're not loving them. We're not loving that quote-unquote "conservative gay" individual by bringing him in and saying, "Oh, that doesn't matter, that's tertiary." No, this is first order. The person in adultery, you can fix them. I'm not trying to draw lines, but with me where God has me as a former homosexual, I don't think that these conservatives are loving them. I don't think Pastor Rob and TPUSA is loving the homosexual by saying "we agree to disagree, let's just do politics." Because at some point, TPUSA is going to have to choose: are they going to protect the nuclear family or not? You're going to burn the gays again, the people who identify as gay. It's you're burning them again and they're going to call you a hypocrite. Politics isn't about winning; politics is about the virtues that we're going to live by, the law. We've got to choose. I choose the Lord.

David Wheaton: Darren, I just want to thank you for coming on The Christian Worldview radio program today. We just wish all of God's best to you and your family.

Darren Mell: Thank you, Dave, for all that you do with Christian Worldview and God's grace be with you as well.

David Wheaton: You can find links to Pastor Darren Mell at our website thechristianworldview.org. Let's close by reading Romans 5:20 and 21. "The law came in so that the transgression would increase. But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." God's law is clear that all sexual desire and action outside the covenant of male-female marriage is sin.

But God's gospel is also clear that the person and work of Christ on the repentant sinner's behalf is how the sinner can be forgiven and made righteous. What good news. Thank you for joining us today in The Christian Worldview and for your support of this nonprofit radio ministry. Until next time, think biblically, live accordingly, and stand firm.

David Wheaton: The mission of The Christian Worldview is to sharpen the biblical worldview of Christians and to proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ. We hope today's broadcast encouraged you toward that end. To hear a replay of today's program, order a transcript, or find out "what must I do to be saved," go to thechristianworldview.org or call toll-free 1-888-646-2233.

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